Re: Burnt-Out Beta Cells

[Guest guest]

Sounds like it, yep.

I've found the " lowcarb " pasta really does raise my BGs. And I've also

read for some people it didn't at first but did later. Maybe that's

what's happening for you.

Refresh my memory, please: what are you using for control? Diet and

exercise? Pills? Which ones?

Vicki

Burnt-Out Beta Cells

> Hrm, hit a wrong button somewhere. Premature sending!

>

> So, before dinner (6:30), I was at 114.

> Dinner was supposedly low-glycemic pasta dish, salad, and 4 oz of V-8)

> and a slice of

> low-carb bread. Total, roughly 45 carbs. A bit high for me, but used

> to, I'd get over it.

> (Normally, I also cover something this high with a smidge of insulin,

> too)

>

> Readings afterwards:

> 7:30 177

> 8:30 176 (I'm concerned with this NOT DROPPING bit!?)

> 9:30 157 - alas, snack time. I opt for nearly pure protein: 2 oz of

> deli ham and 1 oz

> mozzarella string cheese. Total of about 3-4 carbs.

> 10:30 I'm back up to 162

>

> Sound like I've burned out the old beta cells, or what?

>

>

> SulaBlue

>

[Guest guest]

Actos, 40mg a day. Humalog R " as needed " - seems like more needed than in the

past, eh?

I'll admit, with all that's gone on in my life, I've let my control slide the

past few months.

I'd been thinking that my increasing morning numbers might be liver dumps, but

mayhaps

not. At any rate, I start on AvandiaMet 4/500 (instead of the Actos) tomorrow.

So, we shall

see if that helps any.

If not, well... drat. The idea of having to deal with a basal insulin truly

worries me. With my

job, I can't always eat " on schedule " though it's gotten better than when there

were times I

couldn't eat at all. Usually I get lunch somewhere between 11 am and 1:30 pm -

too wide

a window, I think, for most folks on a basal insulin to have to fudge through?

Just curious, once you switch to insulin, do most people ditch the pills

entirely, or stay on

pills to reduce the insulin resistance and thus inject less insulin?

SulaBlue

> Sounds like it, yep.

>

> I've found the " lowcarb " pasta really does raise my BGs. And I've also

> read for some people it didn't at first but did later. Maybe that's

> what's happening for you.

>

> Refresh my memory, please: what are you using for control? Diet and

> exercise? Pills? Which ones?

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

The only insulin whewre you need to take food " on schedule " is NPH or

regular. With Humalog or NovoLog you just take it whenever you're ready

to eat. For basal insulin, Lantus works for some; for others

Ultralente is great.

If you decide to go to insulin you might be interested in joining Ron

Sebol's list - he's a retired engineer who's devised an individualized

insulin dosing program that really works. It requires a lot of testing

but once that's completed, you literally don't have to worry about it

any more. If you want join-up information let me know.

Vicki, a happy Ron fan...

Re: Burnt-Out Beta Cells

> Actos, 40mg a day. Humalog R " as needed " - seems like more needed than

> in the past, eh?

>

> I'll admit, with all that's gone on in my life, I've let my control

> slide the past few months.

> I'd been thinking that my increasing morning numbers might be liver

> dumps, but mayhaps

> not. At any rate, I start on AvandiaMet 4/500 (instead of the Actos)

> tomorrow. So, we shall

> see if that helps any.

>

> If not, well... drat. The idea of having to deal with a basal insulin

> truly worries me. With my

> job, I can't always eat " on schedule " though it's gotten better than

> when there were times I

> couldn't eat at all. Usually I get lunch somewhere between 11 am and

> 1:30 pm - too wide

> a window, I think, for most folks on a basal insulin to have to fudge

> through?

>

> Just curious, once you switch to insulin, do most people ditch the

> pills entirely, or stay on

> pills to reduce the insulin resistance and thus inject less insulin?

>

> SulaBlue

>

>

>> Sounds like it, yep.

>>

>> I've found the " lowcarb " pasta really does raise my BGs. And I've

>> also

>> read for some people it didn't at first but did later. Maybe that's

>> what's happening for you.

>>

>> Refresh my memory, please: what are you using for control? Diet and

>> exercise? Pills? Which ones?

>> Vicki

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was on that list once, and the sheer amount of traffic nearly killed me. I've

pretty much

figured out that I need 1 unit of Humalog for every 9 carbs (give or take, it's

not exact). If

I'm doing a corrective dose, 1 unit of insulin will drop my BG levels by 10

points. Granted,

all of this would likely be thrown right out the window if I started on a basal

insulin.

Which, honestly, really makes me wonder: am I really all that insulin resistant,

vs. perhaps

simply not making enough insulin? Never had a c-peptide test done. I think I'll

request one

the next time I go in.

One other irksome thing is that I seem to bruise very easily. I use the BD

short/fine

needles, but it seems like every 3rd injection, I get a bruise. Some of them

take *FOREVER*

to go away, too. I've got one slightly discolored spot (looks like a sunspot)

that has been

there for WEEKS. Usually they go away in 3-5 days, but this one's sticking

around. I can't

imagine what I'll look like if I end up using multiple daily injections /and/

basal insulin.

Oy.

I did get up and dose w/ 2 units of Humalog after my last reading/posting. In

about an

hour it brought me down to 143 - good to go to bed. Except now my mind won't

stop

whirring.

I'm wondering, of course, how much all my recent back pain, physical therapy

(swimming,

range of motion and resistance work sometimes 2 hours a day), and assorted drugs

has

played into this. Thankfully I'm off the steroids (that was near the middle of

last month)

but still on the relafen (Nabumetone) but I don't see increased BG as one of its

side effects.

I've been off the vicodin for about a week now.

SulaBlue

> The only insulin whewre you need to take food " on schedule " is NPH or

> regular. With Humalog or NovoLog you just take it whenever you're ready

> to eat. For basal insulin, Lantus works for some; for others

> Ultralente is great.

>

> If you decide to go to insulin you might be interested in joining Ron

> Sebol's list - he's a retired engineer who's devised an individualized

> insulin dosing program that really works. It requires a lot of testing

> but once that's completed, you literally don't have to worry about it

> any more. If you want join-up information let me know.

> Vicki, a happy Ron fan...

[Guest guest]

Properly titrated a basal insulin holds you steady between meals. It

will not cover meals. OTOH, you could go low from delaying food too

long, way long, and it really is not the fault of the basal insulin.

People without diabetes or hypoglycemia can delay meals just so long and

they begin to get bodily reactions: grouchiness, headaches,

lightheadedness and maybe even outright hypoglycemia.

Sula B, a lot depends on what kind of numbers you wake up with and what

numbers you have before meals. If those numbers are good, you may just

need a bit of a fast acting insulin for meals.

As you said tho, you are starting a new med and need to assess it's effect.

BTW, I take insulin, actos, metformin and a slew of supplements as well

as other meds.

Helen

[Guest guest]

Well Sula, that will teach you not to combine pasta & bread in one

meal--was this Dreamfields pasta?

I am so lucky to be able to eat the Dreamfields--I had some for supper

the other night & 2 hrs later was at 95.

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

> So, before dinner, I was 114.

> One hour after dinner (a supposedly low-glycemic pasta dish, salad,

and 4 oz of V-8) I

> was at 177. YOUCH.

> Two hours after: 176.

Hi Sula

I created my own glycemic loads list by using my meter. If that had

been me, that dinner just made the hit-list: to be modified, either in

content or portion size or both.

I use labels on packets as guides only, the meter is the tool I trust.

Listen to yours.

Cheers, Alan

[Guest guest]

Sula

I also use a background and nothing else.....I don't eat on a regular

schedule...frequently skipping breakfast until after I work out. I just don't

go

more than 5 hours without food.

I've gone to bed at 88 and didn't have any problem going low in the

night.....of course I do have this very active liver.....

Ressy

[Guest guest]

SulaBlue,

I don't understand your worry about dealing with

basal insulin. In my case Lantus doesn't have peeks

and valleys like NPH and helped me manage my Type 1

diabetes with fewer insulin shocks. The short acting

insulins

of today allow more freedom for scheduling meals since

they

work faster and there is no need to snack three hours

later to

prevent insulin shock. YMMV.

Kind regards, Tim

--- SulaBlue wrote:

> Actos, 40mg a day. Humalog R " as needed " - seems

> like more needed than in the past, eh?

>

> I'll admit, with all that's gone on in my life, I've

> let my control slide the past few months.

> I'd been thinking that my increasing morning numbers

> might be liver dumps, but mayhaps

> not. At any rate, I start on AvandiaMet 4/500

> (instead of the Actos) tomorrow. So, we shall

> see if that helps any.

>

> If not, well... drat. The idea of having to deal

> with a basal insulin truly worries me. With my

> job, I can't always eat " on schedule " though it's

> gotten better than when there were times I

> couldn't eat at all. Usually I get lunch somewhere

> between 11 am and 1:30 pm - too wide

> a window, I think, for most folks on a basal insulin

> to have to fudge through?

>

> Just curious, once you switch to insulin, do most

> people ditch the pills entirely, or stay on

> pills to reduce the insulin resistance and thus

> inject less insulin?

>

> SulaBlue

>

>

> > Sounds like it, yep.

> >

> > I've found the " lowcarb " pasta really does raise

> my BGs. And I've also

> > read for some people it didn't at first but did

> later. Maybe that's

> > what's happening for you.

> >

> > Refresh my memory, please: what are you using for

> control? Diet and

> > exercise? Pills? Which ones?

> > Vicki

>

>

>

>

____________________________________________________

Yahoo! Sports

Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

http://football.fantasysports.yahoo.com

[Guest guest]

Oh yes, it's most definitely been nixed. Axed. Cut. Remooooooooved from my NS

order

list!

SulaBlue

> Hi Sula

>

> I created my own glycemic loads list by using my meter. If that had

> been me, that dinner just made the hit-list: to be modified, either in

> content or portion size or both.

>

> I use labels on packets as guides only, the meter is the tool I trust.

> Listen to yours.

>

> Cheers, Alan

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Tim.

My 'worry' comes from having never used one before and from having seen how my

grandmother had to deal. Well, I guess today's insulin is sorta like the old

(was it cadillac?

Station wagon?) " This isn't your grandmother's insulin! "

My schedule is just very wonky, so I was worried about being tied to a schedule

of eating. I

work at a newspaper, and it's even more unpredictable than many jobs! Sometimes

I go in

at 7:45 (getting up at 6:30). Others days I try to haul myself up at 5:30 and

hit the pool

right after breakfast, then work. Some days I get lunch at 11:00, some days not

until 1:30.

Dinner also ranges anywhere from 5:00 if I don't go to the pool after work to

sometimes 8

if I've gone to work out and I'm not hungry. Weekends, of course, I'm still a

party girl and

like to stay up until all hours and then sleep late. Of course, come Football

season I won't

have a choice! I end up working from 10-5, and then going back to work from

12:am - 2

a.m., so sleep in until almost noon the next day!

You can see, I'm sure, where someone who is used to the idea of 'feeding the

insulin'

would be concerned about being tied to an eating schedule!

SulaBlue

> SulaBlue,

>

> I don't understand your worry about dealing with

> basal insulin. In my case Lantus doesn't have peeks

> and valleys like NPH and helped me manage my Type 1

> diabetes with fewer insulin shocks. The short acting

> insulins

> of today allow more freedom for scheduling meals since

> they

> work faster and there is no need to snack three hours

> later to

> prevent insulin shock. YMMV.

>

> Kind regards, Tim

[Guest guest]

I had oral surgery 2 days ago with conscious sedation so I had to fast

before the surgery and didn't eat anything till dinnertime. Because of

this, I only took my basal insulin as usual. I tested several times

during the day and was quite pleased to see my BGs stay between 90 and

110 the whole time, which reinforces the fact that my basal dose

(Ultralente 5 units at 8 a.m., 9 units at 8 p.m.) is indeed perfect.

Vicki

Re: Re: Burnt-Out Beta Cells

> Properly titrated a basal insulin holds you steady between meals. It

> will not cover meals. OTOH, you could go low from delaying food too

> long, way long, and it really is not the fault of the basal insulin.

> People without diabetes or hypoglycemia can delay meals just so long

> and

> they begin to get bodily reactions: grouchiness, headaches,

> lightheadedness and maybe even outright hypoglycemia.

>

> Sula B, a lot depends on what kind of numbers you wake up with and

> what

> numbers you have before meals. If those numbers are good, you may

> just

> need a bit of a fast acting insulin for meals.

>

> As you said tho, you are starting a new med and need to assess it's

> effect.

>

> BTW, I take insulin, actos, metformin and a slew of supplements as

> well

> as other meds.

>

> Helen

[Guest guest]

Thank you, Vicki, this is very reassuring!

SulaBlue

> I had oral surgery 2 days ago with conscious sedation so I had

to fast

> before the surgery and didn't eat anything till dinnertime.

Because of

> this, I only took my basal insulin as usual. I tested several

times

> during the day and was quite pleased to see my BGs stay

between 90 and

> 110 the whole time, which reinforces the fact that my basal

dose

> (Ultralente 5 units at 8 a.m., 9 units at 8 p.m.) is indeed perfect.

> Vicki

[Guest guest]

Did you do any exercise to drive your sugar down? In my opinion that

is a perfectly acceptable " medication " when you find that what you ate

did not act the way you expected.

I won't venture an opinion on whether or not your beta cells are

burned out, at least not without information on other meals.

> Hrm, hit a wrong button somewhere. Premature sending!

>

> So, before dinner (6:30), I was at 114.

> Dinner was supposedly low-glycemic pasta dish, salad, and 4 oz of V-

8) and a slice of

> low-carb bread. Total, roughly 45 carbs. A bit high for me, but used

to, I'd get over it.

> (Normally, I also cover something this high with a smidge of

insulin, too)

>

> Readings afterwards:

> 7:30 177

> 8:30 176 (I'm concerned with this NOT DROPPING bit!?)

> 9:30 157 - alas, snack time. I opt for nearly pure protein: 2 oz of

deli ham and 1 oz

> mozzarella string cheese. Total of about 3-4 carbs.

> 10:30 I'm back up to 162

>

> Sound like I've burned out the old beta cells, or what?

>

>

> SulaBlue

[Guest guest]

> I was on that list once, and the sheer amount of traffic nearly

killed me.

I just recently joined Ron's list, and the traffic right now is about

1/3 or 1/2 what this list gets. May just be a temporary thing, though.

[Guest guest]

Sula,

perhaps someone else will point this out but the snack you had of ham

and cheese is high in fat although low in carbs. This would have the

effect of maintaining your bgs at the higher level you were already

experiencing rather than letting them drop.

Personally, when I need to bring my bgs down I have to avoid as much

fat as possible otherwise it takes longer than what I want.

Suzz, t2, dx97, d & e

-----------

>

> Readings afterwards:

> 7:30 177

> 8:30 176 (I'm concerned with this NOT DROPPING bit!?)

> 9:30 157 - alas, snack time. I opt for nearly pure protein: 2 oz of

deli ham and 1 oz

> mozzarella string cheese. Total of about 3-4 carbs.

> 10:30 I'm back up to 162

>

> Sound like I've burned out the old beta cells, or what?

>

>

> SulaBlue

[Guest guest]

Not sure I understand the effect here. I would expect that the meal

would have already passed out of the stomach by the time the snack was

eaten, so why would putting fat in an " empty " stomach have any effect

on the carbs available from the meal?

> Sula,

>

> perhaps someone else will point this out but the snack you had of

ham

> and cheese is high in fat although low in carbs. This would have the

> effect of maintaining your bgs at the higher level you were already

> experiencing rather than letting them drop.

>

> Personally, when I need to bring my bgs down I have to avoid as much

> fat as possible otherwise it takes longer than what I want.

>

> Suzz, t2, dx97, d & e

>

> -----------

> >

> > Readings afterwards:

> > 7:30 177

> > 8:30 176 (I'm concerned with this NOT DROPPING bit!?)

> > 9:30 157 - alas, snack time. I opt for nearly pure protein: 2 oz

of

> deli ham and 1 oz

> > mozzarella string cheese. Total of about 3-4 carbs.

> > 10:30 I'm back up to 162

> >

> > Sound like I've burned out the old beta cells, or what?

> >

> >

> > SulaBlue

[Guest guest]

,

I swim, sometimes twice a day if I'm feeling particularly like a

" Morning Person " (Ie, getting up at 5:30 to hit the gym - ew!).

Exercise doesn't have the same effect on me as it does you. In

the mornings, it can actually drive me UP - which is

counterproductive, to say the least!

SulaBlue

> Did you do any exercise to drive your sugar down? In my

opinion that

> is a perfectly acceptable " medication " when you find that what

you ate

> did not act the way you expected.

>

> I won't venture an opinion on whether or not your beta cells are

> burned out, at least not without information on other meals.

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, but THIS list I can read on the web.

I don't think there was any option but having Ron's list but directly

into my email. I actually detest getting e-group stuff in my inbox.

SulaBlue

> > I was on that list once, and the sheer amount of traffic nearly

> killed me.

>

> I just recently joined Ron's list, and the traffic right now is about

> 1/3 or 1/2 what this list gets. May just be a temporary thing,

though.

>

[Guest guest]

Bummer about the effect of morning exercise. But since this thread is

about an evening meal, I am wondering if you tried using exercise to

drive this spike down, and did it work.

> > Did you do any exercise to drive your sugar down? In my

> opinion that

> > is a perfectly acceptable " medication " when you find that what

> you ate

> > did not act the way you expected.

> >

> > I won't venture an opinion on whether or not your beta cells are

> > burned out, at least not without information on other meals.

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure it was all *THAT* high, really. The ham was 98%

lean ham, and the cheese was skim mozarella. I'll have to check

the labels.

The problem wasn't that it stayed high - but it went UP

SulaBlue

> Sula,

>

> perhaps someone else will point this out but the snack you

had of ham

> and cheese is high in fat although low in carbs. This would

have the

> effect of maintaining your bgs at the higher level you were

already

> experiencing rather than letting them drop.

>

> Personally, when I need to bring my bgs down I have to avoid

as much

> fat as possible otherwise it takes longer than what I want.

>

> Suzz, t2, dx97, d & e

>

> -----------

> >

> > Readings afterwards:

> > 7:30 177

> > 8:30 176 (I'm concerned with this NOT DROPPING bit!?)

> > 9:30 157 - alas, snack time. I opt for nearly pure protein: 2 oz

of

> deli ham and 1 oz

> > mozzarella string cheese. Total of about 3-4 carbs.

> > 10:30 I'm back up to 162

> >

> > Sound like I've burned out the old beta cells, or what?

> >

> >

> > SulaBlue

[Guest guest]

Hi SulaBlue,

> Yes, but THIS list I can read on the web.

>

> I don't think there was any option but having Ron's list but directly

> into my email. I actually detest getting e-group stuff in my inbox.

You could sign up using a different e-mail address than you usually

use for other purposes, such as a free Yahoo or Gmail account. Then,

you could use your web browser to read the list.

Just a thought....

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:08:52 -0000, " SulaBlue "

wrote:

>If not, well... drat. The idea of having to deal with a basal insulin truly

worries me. With my

>job, I can't always eat " on schedule " though it's gotten better than when there

were times I

>couldn't eat at all. Usually I get lunch somewhere between 11 am and 1:30 pm -

too wide

>a window, I think, for most folks on a basal insulin to have to fudge through?

If you do the basal load right then you don't have to live on a

schedule. Basal dose for your fasting BG. The cover meals with

something fast. I've had absolutely superb results with Lantus for

basal and Novolog for meals. Once you figure out your sensitivity to

various types of foods, you can nail it dead-on. I rarely see my

post-meal BG go above 120 and then only for a bit. I select my basal

load to make my FBG hover around 95.

>

>Just curious, once you switch to insulin, do most people ditch the pills

entirely, or stay on

>pills to reduce the insulin resistance and thus inject less insulin?

My doc wanted me to try Glucophage to lower resistance. I am but I've

not seen any difference. I don't think I'll be renewing the 'script.

In my case, I think my betas are pooped and resistance is now minimal.

The only thing that has reliably reduced my basal dose has been weight

loss. I started at 60 units of Lantus and am down to 25. About a 30

lb weight loss over that interval. I plateaued for a couple of weeks

but I'm losing again now.

I try to keep my total carbs under 50 a day. I've gone up 10 since I

started as the weight has come off. I'm going to creep up another 10

points, I think, and permit up to 60. That'll free up a few dishes

that I really miss. I rarely need more than 4 or 5 units to cover a

meal. I live by Bernstein's law of small numbers. It really works.

I let loose on a high carb meal last week, required >10 units to cover

it and ended up with my first significant low. Never happens with

small numbers.

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 04:58:08 -0000, " SulaBlue "

wrote:

>I was on that list once, and the sheer amount of traffic nearly killed me. I've

pretty much

>figured out that I need 1 unit of Humalog for every 9 carbs (give or take, it's

not exact). If

>I'm doing a corrective dose, 1 unit of insulin will drop my BG levels by 10

points. Granted,

>all of this would likely be thrown right out the window if I started on a basal

insulin.

I'm at 1 unit per 15 points so it sounds like we're not that far

apart. Not much insulin resistance there, I don't think. The

C-peptide will show for sure.

>

>Which, honestly, really makes me wonder: am I really all that insulin

resistant, vs. perhaps

>simply not making enough insulin? Never had a c-peptide test done. I think I'll

request one

>the next time I go in.

>

>One other irksome thing is that I seem to bruise very easily. I use the BD

short/fine

>needles, but it seems like every 3rd injection, I get a bruise. Some of them

take *FOREVER*

>to go away, too. I've got one slightly discolored spot (looks like a sunspot)

that has been

>there for WEEKS. Usually they go away in 3-5 days, but this one's sticking

around. I can't

>imagine what I'll look like if I end up using multiple daily injections /and/

basal insulin.

>Oy.

>

>I did get up and dose w/ 2 units of Humalog after my last reading/posting. In

about an

>hour it brought me down to 143 - good to go to bed. Except now my mind won't

stop

>whirring.

From your other numbers you've posted, I suspect that the slow healing

may be an artifact of your sugar level. I know that I healed only

very slowly before I got mine under control. That should have been a

clue. Try to keep your peaks under 120 and other times at 100 or

lower and see what happens after a couple of weeks.

I haven't yet adopted the Ron Sebold method but I'm getting pretty

tight control by dosing meals with Novolog according to formula,

measuring in 1/2 hour (I peak at 1 hour) and taking a trim dose of

Novolog as required. I test again at 1.5 hours as feedback on the

trim. I can look at the rate of decline and predict whether I'm headed

low and eat a little sugar or nibble a glucose pill if necessary.

Quite seldom.

>

>I'm wondering, of course, how much all my recent back pain, physical therapy

(swimming,

>range of motion and resistance work sometimes 2 hours a day), and assorted

drugs has

>played into this. Thankfully I'm off the steroids (that was near the middle of

last month)

>but still on the relafen (Nabumetone) but I don't see increased BG as one of

its side effects.

>I've been off the vicodin for about a week now.

Arthritis runs in the family. I thought I was carrying on the

tradition, with all my joints aching, muscle ache, backache and so on.

Even my jaw joint hurt occasionally. Then I was diagnosed and got my

sugar under control and all that went away. I still have arthritis in

my blown knees but everything else is peachy cool. I bet if you

achieve tighter control, that you'll lose more of the aches too.

---

De Armond

See my website for my current email address

http://www.johngsbbq.com

Cleveland, Occupied TN

[Guest guest]

, how are you 'basal dosing for your fasting bg' ?

SulaBlue

-- In diabetes_int , Neon <jgd@j...>

wrote:

> If you do the basal load right then you don't have to live on a

> schedule. Basal dose for your fasting BG. The cover meals

with

> something fast. I've had absolutely superb results with Lantus

for

> basal and Novolog for meals. Once you figure out your

sensitivity to

> various types of foods, you can nail it dead-on. I rarely see my

> post-meal BG go above 120 and then only for a bit. I select my

basal

> load to make my FBG hover around 95.

> De Armond

> See my website for my current email address

> http://www.johngsbbq.com

> Cleveland, Occupied TN