Re: BG response out of this world

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 9:00:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

sulablue2001@... writes:

> So, breakfast this morning, as reported, was about 9g total

> carbs. Not a lot of fiber there, only 1g from the V-8 juice.

>

> Starting BG 147

> BG at 1 hour: 191

> Total rise: 44 pts.

>

Those numbers are not unusual if the carb is a high GI type. Bernstein says

that for a type 1 you can expect a rise of 5 points for every gram of carb.

Thus, you would expect about 5 x 9 i.e., a 45 point rise.

To be most effective, the Humalog should have been taken at the same time, or

possibly a few minutes before, you start to eat. And you should be sure that

you'll have the food ready to eat after you've taken the Humalog

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 9:51:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

> From my own testing, I know that Humalog kicks in at 25 minutes.

>

I too have tested the Humalog, and for me the lead time is similar to yours.

As usual YMMV. I experimented with Humalog while eating out, but wouldn't take

it until food was on the table. Of course, I do carry a glucose tab in my

wallet, but that's for emergencies

I have some interesting data on the effect of taking various amounts of

Humalog while fasting. I'll publish the data in due course, but I DON'T

RECOMMEND

THIS EXPERIMENT. It can cause depletion of potassium.

Off to the doctors to find out how to juggle Plavix, Aspirin, and Coumadin.

.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 9:56:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,

cappie@... writes:

> On top of which Sula is a T2

With a high GI carb such as glucose, even a nondiabetic can see a rise of 5

mg/dL per gram.

I'm a type 2 and see a rise of about 3.7 mg/dL per gram of carb in white

bread.

I would expect the BG rise for a given number of carbs to be greater if the

carbs are contained in a liquid. The argument being that those carbs would be

spread over a larger surface area of the gastrointestinal track and would

therefore be assimilated more quickly. This gives less time for the carbs to be

acted upon by any available insulin. It's only a theory, but has anyone observed

that dissolved carbs cause more of a rise than carbs in a solid. I may have

seen this effect with glucose tabs, but it wasn't a careful enough experiment

to report.

BTW, my doctor agrees. Plavix, Aspirin, and Coumadin definitely requires

juggling. We agreed on the approach I''m taking . . . delete the aspirin!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 1:23:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bmccarty@... writes:

> , I don't doubt this claim so long as we have in mind a relatively

> short-term rise. But, can you provide a citation or further information?

>

Yes, certainly. If you look in my Diabetes and Diet book in a PDF file at

www.dapaice.com. you'll see that I got test data from a nondiabetic. That's

where

the " rise " number came from.

[Guest guest]

Actually, , the recommended time to take Humalog is 15 minutes

before eating. And this may vary, as does almost everything else having

to do with diabetes. From my own testing, I know that Humalog kicks in

at 25 minutes.

Vicki

Re: BG response out of this world

> In a message dated 6/30/2005 9:00:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,

> sulablue2001@... writes:

>

>> So, breakfast this morning, as reported, was about 9g total

>> carbs. Not a lot of fiber there, only 1g from the V-8 juice.

>>

>> Starting BG 147

>> BG at 1 hour: 191

>> Total rise: 44 pts.

>>

>

> Those numbers are not unusual if the carb is a high GI type. Bernstein

> says

> that for a type 1 you can expect a rise of 5 points for every gram of

> carb.

> Thus, you would expect about 5 x 9 i.e., a 45 point rise.

>

> To be most effective, the Humalog should have been taken at the same

> time, or

> possibly a few minutes before, you start to eat. And you should be

> sure that

> you'll have the food ready to eat after you've taken the Humalog

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On top of which Sula is a T2.

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

The problem being that, in the past, I could eat up to 20g of carbs

without getting much more than a 20 point rise. This skyrocket to

a minimal amount of carbs is a new thing - thus my wondering if

the beta cells have flow the coop.

SulaBlue

> Those numbers are not unusual if the carb is a high GI type.

Bernstein says

> that for a type 1 you can expect a rise of 5 points for every gram

of carb.

> Thus, you would expect about 5 x 9 i.e., a 45 point rise.

>

> To be most effective, the Humalog should have been taken at

the same time, or

> possibly a few minutes before, you start to eat. And you should

be sure that

> you'll have the food ready to eat after you've taken the Humalog

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 1:53:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

whimsy2@... writes:

> But I wouldn't think that one or two tests would cause potassium depletion

> -- would it?

>

I believe the answer is yes it will, Vicki, if the test conditions are those

that I used, namely starting from the morning fasting position. At the time I

controlled by diet alone.

On successive days I applied one, then two, then three and so on units of

Humalog. Initially there was no response, I assume that the Humalog just

relieved

my pancreas from the fasting insulin duties. When I finally injected enough

Humalog to reduce my fasting BG I got the response plot that I was after, but

afterwards felt unwell. The feeling persisted for more than a day, and

eventually I took a potassium supplement. Whether by coincidence or not I'll

never

know for sure, but I started to feel better.

I've written this experience from memory, so I hope it's correct. The data

curves and notes are somewhere in my files for retrieval later.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 1:46:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,

cappie@... writes:

> ONE nondiabetic? Excuse me but I am sure there are as many variations with

> non-diabetics as there are with diabetics.

>

That's true, but one number is better than no number so long as you don't try

to generalize from it.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 2:27:20 PM Eastern Standard Time,

bmccarty@... writes:

> Of course, this does beg the question whether the non-diabetic is truly

> non-diabetic. Any thoughts on that, ?

One can never know for sure, but as I recall the person's A1c was about 4.9%

at the time. They ate whatever they wanted then and still do today, ten years

later.

It's possible that a much younger (18-year old) nondiabetic would have less

of a BG rise. Jennie Brand-'s tests using young college students would

give a better idea, but I don't have that data and I doubt that it would be of

much interest . . . until we can reverse the clock and become 18 again, Yeah!

[Guest guest]

Hi and all,

> With a high GI carb such as glucose, even a nondiabetic can see a

rise of 5

> mg/dL per gram.

, I don't doubt this claim so long as we have in mind a

relatively short-term rise. But, can you provide a citation or further

information?

At one time, I tried to learn as much about non-diabetic glucose

excursions as I could. However, I found little information. I even

found it impossible to find references to the original research that

determined average fasting glucose values of non-diabetics. There was

so little information that I began to wonder how much was so-called

common sense and how much had actually be empirically tested. As we

know from the work that led to the glycemic index, much that seems

common sensical simply isn't true. So, we may be pending additional

insight into how blood glucose varies in non-diabetic populations.

Thanks for any further data!

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

You got test data fromn " a " non-diabetic--ONE nondiabetic? Excuse me but

I am sure there are as many variations with non-diabetics as there are

with diabetics.

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

> I would expect the BG rise for a given number of carbs to be greater if

the

> carbs are contained in a liquid. The argument being that those carbs would

be

> spread over a larger surface area of the gastrointestinal track and would

> therefore be assimilated more quickly.

Also, liquids leave the stomach much faster.

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

> If you look in my Diabetes and Diet book in a PDF file at

> www.dapaice.com. you'll see that I got test data from a nondiabetic.

Got it, thanks!

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

> That's true, but one number is better than no number so long as you

don't try

> to generalize from it.

Yes, it would be useful to have more data so we could characterize

typical responses. But, in this case, we're discussing extreme

behavior. So, if even one non-diabetic has a 5x rise, then that's

enough to make the case at hand. Of course, this does beg the question

whether the non-diabetic is truly non-diabetic. Any thoughts on that,

?

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Hi Gretchen and all,

> Sometimes the best place to find the basics is in endocrinology

textbooks,

> those huge tomes you'll find on the shelves of a local medical

library.

Too many of our local librarians, like those of the community college

you mention, are fond of weeding the stacks. Their policy: if it looks

old, toss it. My wife, a librarian, tells me that classics often

disappear via this brainless process.

> A lot of it seems to consist of taking some number and then

enshrining it.

> For example, I read an article saying that normal temperature isn't

really

> 98.6. That was just something someone came up with, and different

people

> have different normal temperatures.

I've read that the source of 98.6 is a study that presented a mean

value as an integer denoting a Celsius temperature. The decimal value

appeared only on conversion to Fahrenheit. Since one Celsius degree is

almost two Fahrenheit degrees, the author perhaps had in mind the

equivalent of the Fahrenheit range 97.6 - 99.6, but that all got lost,

as the story goes.

On the other hand, when I'm healthy, my temperature reads 98.6 on the

dot. Maybe it's time for another study of normal temperatures....

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

> On the other hand, when I'm healthy, my temperature reads 98.6 on the

> dot.

Mine too, which just proves I'm boringly average. Or I have normothermia;

that sounds more interesting.

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

My healthy temp always reads 97.4--!

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/30/2005 4:54:02 PM Eastern Standard Time,

kulas1@... writes:

> , you made the statement re non diabetics getting a rise from carbs

> based on ONE person's numbers? Do you think that is a sufficient " study " for

> making any claim as even common place? For all you know that one person could

> be pre diabetic or even an un dx'd diabetic.

>

I agree with you, , and I didn't state it quite like that. Here is

what I wrote:

" With a high GI carb such as glucose, even a nondiabetic can see a rise of 5

mg/dL per gram. "

I think the qualifying word here is " can. "

I addressed the nondiabetic/diabetic issue in a subsequent post.

Cheers

- Type 2

[Guest guest]

Well, maybe that's just you. Over my 7+ years with diabetes, and

especially during the testing period with Ron, I often skipped meals and

felt no ill effects of any kind. Not even hunger -- I guess I'm one of

those lucky people who can skip a meal and (if I'm otherwise occupied)

not even notice that I'm hungry. The day of my surgery I skipped

breakfast, fasting for the procedure, then skipped lunch too because I

just didnt' feel like eating yet. I didn't start thinking about eating

till about 3 but I was busy so didn't actually get around to eating

anything till 4;15.

Of course, I wouldn't recommend skipping meals to any diabetic,

especially type 2s, but maybe it's different for type 1s. This type 1,

at least.

If you ever find your notes on the subject, I'd be interested in seeing

them.

Vicki

Re: BG response out of this world

> In a message dated 6/30/2005 1:53:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> whimsy2@... writes:

>

>> But I wouldn't think that one or two tests would cause potassium

>> depletion

>> -- would it?

>>

> I believe the answer is yes it will, Vicki, if the test conditions are

> those

> that I used, namely starting from the morning fasting position. At the

> time I

> controlled by diet alone.

>

> On successive days I applied one, then two, then three and so on units

> of

> Humalog. Initially there was no response, I assume that the Humalog

> just relieved

> my pancreas from the fasting insulin duties. When I finally injected

> enough

> Humalog to reduce my fasting BG I got the response plot that I was

> after, but

> afterwards felt unwell. The feeling persisted for more than a day, and

> eventually I took a potassium supplement. Whether by coincidence or

> not I'll never

> know for sure, but I started to feel better.

>

> I've written this experience from memory, so I hope it's correct. The

> data

> curves and notes are somewhere in my files for retrieval later.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi and all,

> One can never know for sure, but as I recall the person's A1c was

about 4.9%

> at the time. They ate whatever they wanted then and still do today,

ten years

> later.

That's good enough for me <g>.

> . . . until we can reverse the clock and become 18 again, Yeah!

Reverse the clock? Hmm, that's an experimental study to which I'd

consent to be a subject, without pause or hesitation!

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

> > On the other hand, when I'm healthy, my temperature reads 98.6 on

the

> > dot.

>

> Mine too, which just proves I'm boringly average. Or I have

normothermia;

> that sounds more interesting.

Or, maybe we're healthy only once in a blue moon <g>?

More seriously, like Cappie, my temperature is sub-normal a good deal

of the time. Since my temperature was much more often 98.6 when I was

younger and had not been diagnosed with several chronic illnesses, I

suspect that sub-normal temperatures are--at least in some

cases--indicators of less than optimal health.

I've scanned the web for information on this, but have found little

relevant material. And, what I have found hasn't led to any clear

consensus, with various sources defining low temperature as occurring

below any of a variety of widely ranging values. Consequence on the

significance of low temperature, however defined, is even more

lacking.

My current physician takes temperatures as low as 97.2--perhaps even

lower--as a good sign. I guess it all depends on your point of view.

I'm certainly more comfortable at 97.2 than at 100.0....

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

One problem with a low " normal " temp is that when you do have a

temp/slight fever--most medical places won't think that a 99 or 99,x is

as high as it really is--I have to tell them I always run 97.4 & then

they ignore me anyway.

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

I thot I remembered reading somewhere/sometime that the body temp

depends on metabolism--slow metabolism results in lower normal temp

faster metabolism makes a higher temp----no?

cappie

Greater Boston Area

T-2 10/02 5/05 A1c: 5.3 = 111 mean glu

50-100 carb diet, walking, Metformin

ALA/EPO, ALC, Vit C, Calc/mag,

low dose Biotin, full spectrum E,

Policosanol, fish oil cap,

fresh flax seed, multi vitamin,

Lovastatin 40 mg/coQ10 100mg, Enalapril 10 mg

5/05:140 lbs (highest weight 309)

5' tall /age 67,

cappie@...

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:34:48 EDT DEKEP@... writes:

> In a message dated 6/30/2005 1:23:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,

> bmccarty@... writes:

>

> > , I don't doubt this claim so long as we have in mind a

> relatively

> > short-term rise. But, can you provide a citation or further

> information?

> >

>

> Yes, certainly. If you look in my Diabetes and Diet book in a PDF

> file at

> www.dapaice.com. you'll see that I got test data from a nondiabetic.

> That's where

> the " rise " number came from.

>

>

>

>

, you made the statement re non diabetics getting a rise from carbs

based on ONE person's numbers? Do you think that is a sufficient " study "

for making any claim as even common place? For all you know that one

person could be pre diabetic or even an un dx'd diabetic.