Re: I really hate the word normal

November 2, 2004

Before thyroid troubles came to light, what the medical field considered normal

worked because we didn't know any better. If you think about it, .50-5.50 is a

very large range. How can anybody anywhere in that large of a range mean

everybody feels all that great? Wouldn't some maybe feel better than others? I

mean, if mine is 0.50, then I'm on the low end of what is considered a normal

TSH, which is what they view as law. If I am 3.17, that falls in that vast

range, so that's normal too. Who cares if I have sypmtoms out the wazoo. Some

dr's won't consider a TSH of over 5.50 a problem? So, where does this help

anybody? It doesn't. But you have FT3 and FT4 ran, and it tells what exactly

is going on. It's not until we become aware that these things are even part of

our problem, then start charting how we feel when labs are ran, and comparing

things that the true picture emerges. I find it interesting that most people

with a low FT3 don't feel all that great. There must be something to it,

because it affects almost everybody I've seen post. That isn't our

imaginations.

Btw, if at all possible, so that you can actually hit your dr with exact things

to discuss about your labs, it's best to get those done 2-4 days earlier than

your actual appt. I've found that allowed me to actually talk to the dr, even

though it did cost me a co-pay for the early blood draw. What it does allow us

to do is to point blank get a first hand view of what the dr is looking at when

he's looking at labs and telling us how 'normal' our labs are. Trying to talk

to an Endo after the fact is hard to accomplish, and I find that I do much

better when we are face to face, when I was actively going to the dr. I may

find another one day, but honestly, I'm not looking for one. They have made

enuff money off my insurance for some pretty crummy care up till this past May.

I may never go back to another one unless it means I have to have one for

Armour. Till that happens, I'm just gonna do what I'm doing now. Dose by

symptoms and enjoy the energy I have now that I haven't felt in years.

SandyE~Houston

Re: My Test Results from doc

In a few short words: your dr is basing your normal on the TSH being

in the 'normal' range that the labs are set, and the FT4. If you are

complaining about symptoms and the dr is ignoring you, then you need

to take matters into your own hands, or get a better dr.

If you're not on enuff meds, you will still have symptoms. If you're

not converting T4 into T3, that can also explain why you still have

symptoms. That would show up when the FT3 is tested.

SandyE~Houston

November 3, 2004

here's my test results again. Are they really 'normal'? What's " more normal " for

T3Free for instance?

T3(free) uptake - 31.7

T4 (free) - 1.7

TSH - l.71

if it's normal as the dr said it was, then how come I feel like crap & am

falling apart & have such depression & low energy, no motivation, no libido,

aches & pains up the yin/yang & feel like death warmed over?

Re: My Test Results from doc

In a few short words: your dr is basing your normal on the TSH being

in the 'normal' range that the labs are set, and the FT4. If you are

complaining about symptoms and the dr is ignoring you, then you need

to take matters into your own hands, or get a better dr.

If you're not on enuff meds, you will still have symptoms. If you're

not converting T4 into T3, that can also explain why you still have

symptoms. That would show up when the FT3 is tested.

SandyE~Houston

November 3, 2004

>>T3(free) uptake - 31.7

T4 (free) - 1.7

TSH - l.71<<

Without that lab's normal ranges, it is hard to say what these mean. I DO

know that most of us seem to feel best with a very suppressed TSH, mine at

last testing 2 years ago was .01 and I am taking double the thyroid now I

was then. Th T3 Uptake test is NOT the Free T3 test.

Ah found something!

Test

Abbreviation Typical Ranges

Serum thyroxine T4 4.6-12 ug/dl

Free thyroxine fraction FT4F 0.03-0.005%

Free Thyroxine FT4 0.7-1.9 ng/dl

Thyroid hormone binding ratio THBR 0.9-1.1

Free Thyroxine index FT4I 4-11

Serum Triiodothyronine T3 80-180 ng/dl

Free Triiodothyronine l FT3 230-619 pg/d

Free T3 Index FT3I 80-180

Radioactive iodine uptake RAIU 10-30%

Serum thyrotropin TSH 0.5-6 uU/ml

Thyroxine-binding globulin TBG 12-20 ug/dl T4 +1.8 ugm

TRH stimulation test Peak TSH 9-30 uIU/ml at 20-30 min

Serum thyroglobulin l Tg 0-30 ng/m

Thyroid microsomal antibody titer TMAb Varies with method

Thyroglobulin antibody titer TgAb Varies with method

Acording to these ranges, your Free T4 is at the upper level of it's range

with it being 1.7 and normal ranges being 0.7 to 1.9

Your T3 Uptake is the Free T3 Index with a range of 80 to 180, you are off

the scale low. These are typical labs that many of us had while on Synthroid

as it only contains T4. While it has your T4 in range, your T3 is NOT and

that is the active thyroid hormone. Doctors only look at TSH and sometimes

the T4, they mostly ignore the T3 tests and many say they are inacurate. The

best thyroid doctors do not though!

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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November 3, 2004

Good grief!! I wouldn't at all know what the heck all those lab ranges or other

stuff you sent even means or what my results mean in comparison.

The lab ranges for mine were:

T3 (free) - 31.7 uptake.....no ranges given.

T4 (free) - 1.7 (0.75-2.0 ranges)

TSH - 1.71 (0.35-5.50 ranges)

I guess my TSH isn't suppressed enough then, right? I had a feeling the T3

uptake isn't the same as free/T3...tho the lab results do say (free) T3 anyway.

Well by your free T3 index I can see mine is way too low then, yes. I do need

the T3 that the natural thyroid would no doubt provide. So we'll see how it goes

on the Armour & the Time-Caps natural thyroid if I add that later. Then test

again in another month or so.

Thanx,

Caroline

Re: I really hate the word " normal "

>>T3(free) uptake - 31.7

T4 (free) - 1.7

TSH - l.71<<

Without that lab's normal ranges, it is hard to say what these mean. I DO

know that most of us seem to feel best with a very suppressed TSH, mine at

last testing 2 years ago was .01 and I am taking double the thyroid now I

was then. Th T3 Uptake test is NOT the Free T3 test.

Ah found something!

Test

Abbreviation Typical Ranges

Serum thyroxine T4 4.6-12 ug/dl

Free thyroxine fraction FT4F 0.03-0.005%

Free Thyroxine FT4 0.7-1.9 ng/dl

Thyroid hormone binding ratio THBR 0.9-1.1

Free Thyroxine index FT4I 4-11

Serum Triiodothyronine T3 80-180 ng/dl

Free Triiodothyronine l FT3 230-619 pg/d

Free T3 Index FT3I 80-180

Radioactive iodine uptake RAIU 10-30%

Serum thyrotropin TSH 0.5-6 uU/ml

Thyroxine-binding globulin TBG 12-20 ug/dl T4 +1.8 ugm

TRH stimulation test Peak TSH 9-30 uIU/ml at 20-30 min

Serum thyroglobulin l Tg 0-30 ng/m

Thyroid microsomal antibody titer TMAb Varies with method

Thyroglobulin antibody titer TgAb Varies with method

Acording to these ranges, your Free T4 is at the upper level of it's range

with it being 1.7 and normal ranges being 0.7 to 1.9

Your T3 Uptake is the Free T3 Index with a range of 80 to 180, you are off

the scale low. These are typical labs that many of us had while on Synthroid

as it only contains T4. While it has your T4 in range, your T3 is NOT and

that is the active thyroid hormone. Doctors only look at TSH and sometimes

the T4, they mostly ignore the T3 tests and many say they are inacurate. The

best thyroid doctors do not though!

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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November 3, 2004

DR's love to run T3Uptake, which is why I asked if you really had a

FreeT3 done.

T3 Uptake is such a worthless waste of money. But that's why we are

here, is to learn how to read our tests, and start asserting ourselves

to get the correct testing done.

I'd do as suggested. I didn't start off on it twice a day but

I did that because I was self medicating, without a dr and didn't want

to take on too much at one time. It was evident when I needed to have

it in my system twice a day because of my afternoon slump.

But, I started off on 1 grain a day which isn't recommended as a

starting dose. I did fine on it, but that doesn't mean you will with

taking 1 grain in the morning at this point.

if you're unsure, take 1/2 a 1 grain armour and see how it works for

you. If you want to work up to 1/2 grain twice a day, then there is

plenty of time for that. My motto is if you're not sure of how much to

take, then just approach is easy.

I think that you may find that when you do get the orginal

prescription from the pharmacy, it cold be that it is generic. They

sometimes switch them, so it won't be that big of a deal. There would

really be no need that I can see to take the one from the pharmacy at

the same time you start taking the one you ordered. The one you

ordered was in case you didn't get a dr to get a prescription for you

anyway.

SandyE~Houston

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 03:10:07 -0800

" Caroline Pollak " wrote:

> Good grief!! I wouldn't at all know what the heck all those lab

>ranges or other stuff you sent even means or what my results mean in

>comparison.

>

> The lab ranges for mine were:

> T3 (free) - 31.7 uptake.....no ranges given.

> T4 (free) - 1.7 (0.75-2.0 ranges)

> TSH - 1.71 (0.35-5.50 ranges)

>

> I guess my TSH isn't suppressed enough then, right? I had a

>feeling the T3 uptake isn't the same as free/T3...tho the lab results

>do say (free) T3 anyway. Well by your free T3 index I can see mine is

>way too low then, yes. I do need the T3 that the natural thyroid

>would no doubt provide. So we'll see how it goes on the Armour & the

>Time-Caps natural thyroid if I add that later. Then test again in

>another month or so.

> Thanx,

> Caroline

> Re: I really hate the word

> " normal "

>

> >>T3(free) uptake - 31.7

> T4 (free) - 1.7

> TSH - l.71<<

>

> Without that lab's normal ranges, it is hard to say what these

>mean. I DO

> know that most of us seem to feel best with a very suppressed TSH,

>mine at

> last testing 2 years ago was .01 and I am taking double the

>thyroid now I

> was then. Th T3 Uptake test is NOT the Free T3 test.

> Ah found something!

>

> Test

> Abbreviation Typical Ranges

> Serum thyroxine T4 4.6-12 ug/dl

> Free thyroxine fraction FT4F 0.03-0.005%

> Free Thyroxine FT4 0.7-1.9 ng/dl

> Thyroid hormone binding ratio THBR 0.9-1.1

> Free Thyroxine index FT4I 4-11

> Serum Triiodothyronine T3 80-180 ng/dl

> Free Triiodothyronine l FT3 230-619 pg/d

> Free T3 Index FT3I 80-180

> Radioactive iodine uptake RAIU 10-30%

> Serum thyrotropin TSH 0.5-6 uU/ml

> Thyroxine-binding globulin TBG 12-20 ug/dl T4 +1.8 ugm

> TRH stimulation test Peak TSH 9-30 uIU/ml at 20-30 min

> Serum thyroglobulin l Tg 0-30 ng/m

> Thyroid microsomal antibody titer TMAb Varies with method

> Thyroglobulin antibody titer TgAb Varies with method

>

> Acording to these ranges, your Free T4 is at the upper level of

>it's range

> with it being 1.7 and normal ranges being 0.7 to 1.9

> Your T3 Uptake is the Free T3 Index with a range of 80 to 180, you

>are off

> the scale low. These are typical labs that many of us had while on

>Synthroid

> as it only contains T4. While it has your T4 in range, your T3 is

>NOT and

> that is the active thyroid hormone. Doctors only look at TSH and

>sometimes

> the T4, they mostly ignore the T3 tests and many say they are

>inacurate. The

> best thyroid doctors do not though!

>

> *Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

> Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

>

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> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

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> Version: 6.0.786 / Virus Database: 532 - Release Date: 10/31/2004

>

November 3, 2004

The general rule is to get a blood test 6 - 8 weeks after changing

your dosage or changing meds. It takes that long for the change to be

reflected in a blood test.

Of course if you dose by how you feel that really isn't practical.

Also if you have antibodies that will throw off your results. And

that is what Drs want - going by the blood tests.

Louise

Then test again in another month or so.

> Thanx,

> Caroline

November 3, 2004

This is very interesting. My doctor tries to keep TSH below 0.5, which

is a lot better than 5.5. But when my TSH got to 0.0-something he told

me I was going hyper and had me cut back on the Armour.

I'm curious--how many people are operating with a TSH that low and

feeling good?

T wrote:

> Without that lab's normal ranges, it is hard to say what these mean. I DO

> know that most of us seem to feel best with a very suppressed TSH, mine at

> last testing 2 years ago was .01

November 3, 2004

>>I'm curious--how many people are operating with a TSH that low and feeling

good?<<

FORGET the TSH tests! If you have Hashi's which most of us do, they are

skewed from the start! Actually, my own theory is that with Hashi's or

goiters we should strive for 0.0 TSH. Why? Because when the body is no

longer demanding more thyroid hormone, it is less likely to be under attack

from our immune systems. Also when you are getting all the thyroid you need,

your body won't be asking for more with a detectable level of TSH. After all

TSH means Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With an autoimmune thyroid, you do

not want your thyroid stimulated. Should be common sense to doctors as well,

but I have never seen one that agrees with that, but I have seen some that

totally ignore the TSH test and dose by symptoms alone. For many years

before the TSH test came out Armour was prescribed both for low thyroid

symptoms and for bone density problems. Back then a doctor knew how to

listen to his patient's symptoms and dose accordingly. Osteoporosis was

never a problem until after the TSH test became the common thyroid test! If

ever there was a test that should be thrown out it is this one! LOL See now

you got ME started! LOL

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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November 3, 2004

In a message dated 11/3/2004 11:58:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,

starz@... writes:

> Actually, my own theory is that with Hashi's

> >or

> >goiters we should strive for 0.0 TSH. Why? Because when the body is

> >no

> >longer demanding more thyroid hormone, it is less likely to be under

> >attack

> >from our immune systems. Also when you are getting all the thyroid

> >you need,

> >your body won't be asking for more with a detectable level of TSH.

> >After all

>

this is my theory too. i don't understand why docs don't get this.

cindi

November 3, 2004

, when I was originally diagnosed as hyperT/Graves, my TSH was

0.01 which then made them look at T3 and T4, after they did the TSH

again, to be sure there were no mistakes.

That would catch an Endo's attention because he would first think you

were indeed hyper. It's not all of the picture though. I can do just

fine with a TSH of 0.01 as long as I'm not truly hyperT, and there are

symptoms that you would definately have if you were. It's not just

about a really low TSH. It comes with resting heart rates that are

high, 80 or even higher, and it happens when we are sitting around

doing nothing. There are many symptoms. If you've never seen the list

of symptoms for hyperT, there is a really good one at

www.mediboard.com under Graves Disease, under Thyroid 101, and

directly following the hyperT list, there is a list for hypoT too.

The difference now is that even though my TSH does stay suppressed,

I'm not hyper. The labs may appear hyper to a dr, but it's not the

same. The list will show which means which, but here again, symptoms

have to be included in with the labs.

SandyE~Houston

On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 07:55:26 -0800

Gray wrote:

> This is very interesting. My doctor tries to keep TSH below 0.5,

>which

> is a lot better than 5.5. But when my TSH got to 0.0-something he

>told

> me I was going hyper and had me cut back on the Armour.

>

> I'm curious--how many people are operating with a TSH that low and

> feeling good?

>

> T wrote:

>

> > Without that lab's normal ranges, it is hard to say what these

>mean. I DO

> > know that most of us seem to feel best with a very suppressed TSH,

>mine at

> > last testing 2 years ago was .01

>

November 3, 2004

Thanks, . That's very helpful.

T wrote:

> >>I'm curious--how many people are operating with a TSH that low and

> feeling

> good?<<

>

> FORGET the TSH tests! If you have Hashi's which most of us do, they are

> skewed from the start! Actually, my own theory is that with Hashi's or

> goiters we should strive for 0.0 TSH. Why? Because when the body is no

> longer demanding more thyroid hormone, it is less likely to be under

> attack

> from our immune systems. Also when you are getting all the thyroid you

> need,

> your body won't be asking for more with a detectable level of TSH.

> After all

> TSH means Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With an autoimmune thyroid, you do

> not want your thyroid stimulated. Should be common sense to doctors as

> well,

> but I have never seen one that agrees with that, but I have seen some that

> totally ignore the TSH test and dose by symptoms alone. For many years

> before the TSH test came out Armour was prescribed both for low thyroid

> symptoms and for bone density problems. Back then a doctor knew how to

> listen to his patient's symptoms and dose accordingly. Osteoporosis was

> never a problem until after the TSH test became the common thyroid

> test! If

> ever there was a test that should be thrown out it is this one! LOL

> See now

> you got ME started! LOL

November 3, 2004

Well said . It's also why thyroid cancer patients are kept with

lower TSH, so that the cancer doesn't return.

SandyE~Houston

On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:10:00 -0500

" T " wrote:

> >>I'm curious--how many people are operating with a TSH that low

>and feeling

> good?<<

>

> FORGET the TSH tests! If you have Hashi's which most of us do, they

>are

> skewed from the start! Actually, my own theory is that with Hashi's

>or

> goiters we should strive for 0.0 TSH. Why? Because when the body is

>no

> longer demanding more thyroid hormone, it is less likely to be under

>attack

> from our immune systems. Also when you are getting all the thyroid

>you need,

> your body won't be asking for more with a detectable level of TSH.

>After all

> TSH means Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. With an autoimmune thyroid,

>you do

> not want your thyroid stimulated. Should be common sense to doctors

>as well,

> but I have never seen one that agrees with that, but I have seen

>some that

> totally ignore the TSH test and dose by symptoms alone. For many

>years

> before the TSH test came out Armour was prescribed both for low

>thyroid

> symptoms and for bone density problems. Back then a doctor knew how

>to

> listen to his patient's symptoms and dose accordingly. Osteoporosis

>was

> never a problem until after the TSH test became the common thyroid

>test! If

> ever there was a test that should be thrown out it is this one! LOL

>See now

> you got ME started! LOL

>

> *Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

> Fat cat? Diabetes? Listowner for overweight or hypothyroid cats

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

>

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> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

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>

November 3, 2004

Hmmm...at the time I was diagnosed hyper based on TSH, I *was* feeling

pretty bad, after months of steady improvement. But there were other

things going on too. I missed four periods in a row (I'm 47), so

estrogen was low. I might try upping my Armour again, now that I'm

feeling good, and see what happens. Thanks, Sandy!

Sandy wrote:

> That would catch an Endo's attention because he would first think you

> were indeed hyper. It's not all of the picture though. I can do just

> fine with a TSH of 0.01 as long as I'm not truly hyperT, and there are

> symptoms that you would definately have if you were. It's not just

> about a really low TSH. It comes with resting heart rates that are

> high, 80 or even higher, and it happens when we are sitting around

> doing nothing. There are many symptoms. If you've never seen the list

> of symptoms for hyperT, there is a really good one at

> www.mediboard.com under Graves Disease, under Thyroid 101, and

> directly following the hyperT list, there is a list for hypoT too.

November 3, 2004

Many thanx for the reply & guidance, Sandy. I really do appreciate it so much.

I called the pharmacy this morning to find out what the Armour dosage was my new

dr. prescribed. They didn't even have the prescription & never got the order for

it. So I had to call the dr's office to ask what the dosage was & to tell them

to re-fax in the prescription for me which they agreed to do.

The Armour dosage she prescribed is 15 mg./day. So, since the Time-Caps thyroid

I've got here is 1 grain (65 mg) I took l/4 grain this morning sublingually on

an empty stomach. It's impossible to cut the pills up into l/8 grain to take it

twice a day, they crumble up so much.

So that's how I'm starting myself on this until I can get the 15 mg Armour Rx

next week or by this Saturday. I'm getting my car on Friday night.

I have a feeling tho, that the 15 mg Armour dosage isn't going to be enough

either. I also doubt this new dr will agree to take any of the other tests I

might ask her to either because they aren't even listed on her lab order form

for blood tests I've got here & haven't taken to a lab yet. There's no just

plain free T3 on it to be checked. Only T3 uptake is all & she didn't even check

that to be tested. All she checked was T4 & TSH. When I asked her to check T3,

she said wouldn't be needing that. Yeah right!! So I will still have to either

find another better thyroid-savvy doctor for better lab tests & /or self-medicate

& wing it on my own.

I can't tell you how very disgusted I am with all the doctors I've been to the

past 40 years I've had this problem. I doubt I can ever trust another doctor.

They don't seem to know their anus from a hole in the ground. Sheesh!!!!

Caroline

Re: I really hate the word " normal "

DR's love to run T3Uptake, which is why I asked if you really had a

FreeT3 done.

T3 Uptake is such a worthless waste of money. But that's why we are

here, is to learn how to read our tests, and start asserting ourselves

to get the correct testing done.

I'd do as suggested. I didn't start off on it twice a day

November 3, 2004

Oh...so then I should get this blood test order done after I get my car next

week. Then not get another one for 6-8 weeks?

The lab order I have here is only for T4 & TSH & that's all this doctor ordered.

She refused to order the T3free or T4free of even the T3 uptake. Said she didn't

need any of those. There's no box to check on the order for T3free anyway. Only

for T3 (uptake) & Free T4 & TSH.

Since I'm going to my own lab to have this order filled next week, could I ask

the lab to do a Free T3 & Free T4 for me too even if they're not checked to do

on the order? Would they do that even if the doctor didn't order them on this

lab order?

Caroline

Re: I really hate the word " normal "

The general rule is to get a blood test 6 - 8 weeks after changing

your dosage or changing meds. It takes that long for the change to be

reflected in a blood test.

Of course if you dose by how you feel that really isn't practical.

Also if you have antibodies that will throw off your results. And

that is what Drs want - going by the blood tests.

November 3, 2004

>>Since I'm going to my own lab to have this order filled next week, could I

ask the lab to do a Free T3 & Free T4 for me too even if they're not checked

to do on the order? Would they do that even if the doctor didn't order them

on this lab order? <<

Who's paying you or the state or insurance? Because if it is anyone but YOU

they will not do them unless ordered by your doctor. NOW you see what we all

have been up against in trying to see a doc for our thyroids.

*Artistic Grooming * Hurricane, WV

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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hypokitties/

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November 3, 2004

OMG...then that's why, while on this Synthroid for so many years, I've now got

severe osteopenia (precurser to osteoporisis) according to my latest bone

density test. So are you saying then that the Synthroid (T4) actually stimulates

the thyroid making auto immune dysfunction even worse? Should a person be taking

ONLY T3 for that then? Or is there a needed balance in the Armour for both T3 &

T4 plus other components?

All my dr ever prescribed for the porous bone problem is Fosamax to rebuild the

bones & only a few months ago too. From what you're saying it's highly likely

I've got Hashi's as well. My last TSH was l.71.