Are we recognizing thiamine deficiency and is there a carnosine/thiamine connection?

[Guest guest]

Listmates,

Carnosine is made up of histidine and beta-alanine. Taking histidine can

(apparently) be helpful if you are thiamine-deficient. I would just love

to hear any comments about this association based on your own experiences!

The activity of histidine carboxylase is this:

L-histidine <-> Histamine + CO2 (cofactors = P5P or pyruvate)

Note this line: Either activation or inhibition of the central

histaminergic system resulted in muricidal suppression in thiamine

deficient rats. That's pretty amazing, and maybe should make us think that

if anti-histamines are working (and maybe if carnosine is working????),

maybe the REAL problem is thiamine deficiency! I would REALLY like to hear

listmates compare responses to thiamine and carnosine.

Yakubutsu Seishin Kodo. 1985 May;5(1):11-7. Related Articles, Links

Muricidal suppression by histidine and its antagonism by

alpha-fluoromethylhistidine in thiamine deficient rats.

Onodera K, Ogura Y.

Male Wistar rats maintained on a thiamine deficient diet showed

mouse-killing behavior (muricide). On the 30th day of experimental feeding,

the incidence of muricide was 70%. Intraperitoneal (ip) injection of

L-histidine, a precursor of brain histamine, suppressed the muricide

induced by thiamine deficiency in a dose dependent manner. The ED50 for

muricidal suppression by histidine alone was 155 mg/kg (95% confidence

limits; 107.6-223.2 mg/kg). Rotarod performance was concurrently examined

as an index of behavioral toxicity. High doses of histidine produced

insignificant changes in rotarod performance except at 30 min after

administration. Histidine exhibited a specific inhibitory activity on the

muricide induced by thiamine deficiency. Pretreatment with

alpha-fluoromethylhistidine (alpha FMH), a potent and specific inhibitor of

histidine decarboxylase, produced a reduction in the effects of histidine.

The ED50 was 400 mg/kg ip (95% confidence limits; 169.5-944 mg/kg) by

histidine in combination with alpha FMH 50 mg/kg ip. However, alpha FMH

also exhibited specific inhibitory activity on muricide. Either activation

or inhibition of the central histaminergic system resulted in muricidal

suppression in thiamine deficient rats. These data support the view that

muricide induced by thiamine deficiency is not mediated by the central

histaminergic system.

PMID: 4050131 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Jpn J Pharmacol. 1984 Jan;34(1):15-21. Related Articles, Links

Effects of histaminergic drugs on muricide induced by thiamine deficiency.

Onodera K, Ogura Y.

Male Wistar rats maintained on a thiamine deficient diet showed

mouse-killing aggression (muricide). On the 30th day of experimental

feeding, the incidence of this muricide was about 70%.

Intracerebroventricular histamine suppressed the muricide induced by

thiamine deficiency in a dose-dependent manner. Histamine H1-receptor

blocking agents such as diphenhydramine, promethazine and chlorpheniramine

also showed muricidal suppression, but astemizole which lacks central

effects did not show muricidal suppression. Mianserin and iprindole showed

muricidal suppression, but metiamide i.p. did not. On the 20th day of

experimental feeding, the incidence of this muricide was 45.5%. Histamine

synthesis inhibitors such as brocresine or alpha-fluoromethylhistidine

could not enhance the muricide on non-killer-rats, but really suppressed

the thiamine deficient killer-rats. The results of this paper suggested

that muricide induced by thiamine deficiency is not mediated by the central

histaminergic system, but pharmacologically characterized by

antidepressants, antihistamines and histamine synthesis inhibitors.

PMID: 6143844 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Guest guest]

>>(and maybe if carnosine is working????),

> maybe the REAL problem is thiamine deficiency! I would REALLY like

to hear

> listmates compare responses to thiamine and carnosine.

My #3 is the one with the behavior improvement with Carnosine. I also

give him B50, which contains thiamine. Once I added the B50, I was

able to reduce the Carnosine. I will try removing it soon.

Adding the B50 created major improvements for my #3. I don't know if

it was thiamine deficiency specifically, or just general B vitamin

deficiency, but he is doing amazingly well.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Dana,

Thanks so much for your observation, and it may support the idea that

thiamine deficiency could have been at the root. I'm so glad your third

son is doing so well!

At 02:42 PM 9/7/2003 +0000, you wrote:

>

> >>(and maybe if carnosine is working????),

> > maybe the REAL problem is thiamine deficiency! I would REALLY like

>to hear

> > listmates compare responses to thiamine and carnosine.

>

>

>My #3 is the one with the behavior improvement with Carnosine. I also

>give him B50, which contains thiamine. Once I added the B50, I was

>able to reduce the Carnosine. I will try removing it soon.

>

>Adding the B50 created major improvements for my #3. I don't know if

>it was thiamine deficiency specifically, or just general B vitamin

>deficiency, but he is doing amazingly well.

>

>Dana

>

>

>

>

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