Guest guest Posted May 9, 2003 Report Share Posted May 9, 2003 In a message dated 5/9/2003 1:44:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, angela.hanna@... writes: > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like that > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of chelation. > I believe this is yeast. For yeast we have successfully used No Fenol enzyme with grapefruit seed extract. Until lately and we are ready to start round 52, I used these two products every chelation day. Michele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2003 Report Share Posted May 9, 2003 > I know I wrote in yesterday or the day before about this issue > but does chelating with ALA increase tourette symptoms? , I don't know how relevant this is, but I know a child who is very much NT and absolutely normal who developed some tics (not tourette, but something that made me think of it) when he had a very bad yeast overgrowth. After the mother treated the yeast, the tics disappeared completely. > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like that > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of chelation. I believe this could be yeast. Maybe in addition to probiotics you could give some antifungals? some GSE maybe? Valentina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2003 Report Share Posted May 9, 2003 , My son holds his ears during chelation rounds, and sometimes for a day or two after. When it gets really bad I ask the school nurse to check his ears just to make sure he's not getting an ear infection. He's never had an ear infection though, but it's a peace of mind thing. The reason that my son holds his ears is because his hearing is changing. Before we started chelation he seemed to be deaf, though the tests said otherwise. Then last year before christmas he was humming jingle bells when the band was practicing (his class was next to the band room). Then he started looking around to find what caused noises. Two weeks ago, for the first time, he looked for the bird that was singing in the garden. He's also paying more attention to our faces when we talk....I'm praying that his words will come soon. Hanna wrote: > I know I wrote in yesterday or the day before about this issue > but does chelating with ALA increase tourette symptoms? > > His ear holding is up again. > > Could the ear holding be due to too high copper? > > He is on ALA 25mg 3 days on 11 days off every 4 hours. > > He weighs 114 pounds. > > Tourette's tics have increased dramatically since. Is this related to > chelation.? > > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like that > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of chelation. > > DMSA did not give results. > I see more results with ALA but more side effects. > > I am giving probiotics . > > His noise sensitivity is up. > > Please help. > > . > > . > > > ======================================================= > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2003 Report Share Posted May 9, 2003 This sounds a LOT like a yeast explosion. Attack the yeast for a few weeks, then try chelating again (on a 3-4 hour protocol!) with double or triple normal anti-yeast measures. Andy > I know I wrote in yesterday or the day before about this issue > but does chelating with ALA increase tourette symptoms? > > His ear holding is up again. > > > Could the ear holding be due to too high copper? > > He is on ALA 25mg 3 days on 11 days off every 4 hours. > > He weighs 114 pounds. > > Tourette's tics have increased dramatically since. Is this related to > chelation.? > > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like that > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of chelation. > > DMSA did not give results. > I see more results with ALA but more side effects. > > > I am giving probiotics . > > > His noise sensitivity is up. > > Please help. > > . > > > An Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2003 Report Share Posted May 9, 2003 thank you to all who answered my post . I am chelating myself too and don't feel very well to say the least ..... feeling very very angry with bouts of tears. I guess maybe yeast issue with me as well. Metals are nasty. thanks again , . At 20:04 09/05/2003 +0000, you wrote: This sounds a LOT like a yeast explosion. Attack the yeast for a few weeks, then try chelating again (on a 3-4 hour protocol!) with double t. I feel like my skin is crawling and veras well. Thanks again> >or triple normal anti-yeast measures. > >Andy > > > I know I wrote in yesterday or the day before about this issue > > but does chelating with ALA increase tourette symptoms? > > > > His ear holding is up again. > > > > > > Could the ear holding be due to too high copper? > > > > He is on ALA 25mg 3 days on 11 days off every 4 hours. > > > > He weighs 114 pounds. > > > > Tourette's tics have increased dramatically since. Is this related >to > > chelation.? > > > > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like >that > > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of >chelation. > > > > DMSA did not give results. > > I see more results with ALA but more side effects. > > > > > > I am giving probiotics . > > > > > > His noise sensitivity is up. > > > > Please help. > > > > . > > > > > > An > > > >======================================================= > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 > I know I wrote in yesterday or the day before about this issue > but does chelating with ALA increase tourette symptoms? > > His ear holding is up again. > > > Could the ear holding be due to too high copper? One of my kids holds his ears when he has yeast/bacteria, and I also recently discovered that zinc is also helping with it. So yes, can be high copper also, at least it appears to be copper + bacteria for my son last week. > Tourette's tics have increased dramatically since. Is this related to > chelation.? > > Yesterday his breath was so bad............he never has breath like that > a coating on his tongue as well. Could this also be a result of chelation. These things sound like yeast http://www.danasview.net/yeast.htm Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 At 23:25 09/05/2003 -0500, you wrote: > > I am chelating myself too > > and don't feel very well to say the least ..... feeling very very > > angry with bouts of tears. > >, I had this same thing once when I took Nystatin. >Are you taking something to kill yeast? >Also, how much B6 are you taking? > > >Valentina Valentina, You are so sweet!!! I have not done anything for the yeast for myself. If this is what it is like to have yeast.........it is really miserable. The headaches are so bad and my emotions feel like they have a mind of their own. My ears itch .... my skin feels like it is crawling. I don't feel very hungry........almost nauseaus and I feel tired but really restless at the same time. I am not feeling very productive. No wonder our kids can get so out of control at times and sometimes for no apparent reason at all. I guess we can't really understand what it feels like until we experience it ourselves. Thanks for responding to my post. I am going down to my kitchen now to take some GSE. thank you, . > >======================================================= > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Unfortunately, most DAN! doctors really don't know any more about physiology than about chelation so they think glutathione is relevant as a treatment. It isn't. All toxic people and most sick people have low measured glutathione. This simply indicates it is being consumed by excessive oxidative stress. The body makes it relatively rapidly, giving people some is seldom helpful. The body makes glutathione using an enzyme (glutathione synthetase) that puts cysteine together with other stuff to make glutathione, and that goes faster the less glutathione is around (this is called allosteric control - a very clever way the body regulates what it does). So people with low glutathione are making it fast and using it up fast. Those with high cysteine and low glutathione are making it double fast. Giving them more isn't the solution. Doing something about the oxidative stress is the solution. What you want to know is cysteine. If low, give them lots of sulfury stuff so the body can make more, and thus more glutathione, otherwise don't give them more. The best way to raise glutathione is with ancillary antioxidants like vitamin C 4 times a day and vitamin E. If interpretation of tests is so obvious that all you do is give people whatever is low, why do doctors need licenses? Why not just let high school grads hang out a shingle? For the tests they are taught in school they realize a lot of knowledge and understanding is requried (e. g. elevated MCV - big red blood cells - does not mean you eat too much so your blood cells are getting fat). This is equally true of the more modern (also known as alternative) tests that they weren't taught about in school. Andy . . . . . . . . . . . . > Andy > Would you recommend using the glutathione by itself? Would it be > beneficial for a child undergoing chelation and that is glutathione > deficient? > Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Andy, > > > > > > I appreciate your responding to my question about TTFD, > though I admit I was surprised by it. I am certainly no expert > about these matters, which is why I posted in the first place. I > can use all the info I can get. In that spirit, it would be helpful > if you could give us some background upon which you have these > strong opinions about TTFD and our DAN doctor's competence. > > > > > > Why do you feel that TTFD is " inappropriate and dangerous " ? > > > > The reported adverse reaction rate is 20%. An adverse reaction is > a > > severe problem that leads to at least long term serious worsening > and > > often requires further medical attention. > > > > TTFD does not remove any heavy metals. The paper by Lonsdale is > > conclusive on this. His words say it does, but his data says it > does > > not. There is no chemical reason one would expect it to either. > I > > also went to the trouble to wheedle a lot of people out of test > results > > with and without TTFD to double check thins, and the tests that > lots of > > people did also showed TTFD does not increase heavy metal > clearance. > > > > >Is your concern about the TTFD, > > > > Yes. > > > > > or the MB-12, > > > > There is some concern about the m-b-12, but less. It is true that > there > > are frequent adverse reactions to this, but there are also > frequent > > substantial improvements, and it is addressing a condition that is > > reasonably believed to have the potential to cause permanent, > > irreversible damage if not treated in a timely manner. Also the > adverse > > reaction is a few months of agitated anger with no motivation. > This is > > not very serious for a small child. Once they are big enough to > be > > physically dangerous to adult caretakers it is an entirely > different > > matter. > > > > >or both? Do you have concerns about the DAN movement in > general? > > > > Yes and no. > > > > The people in charge of coming up with their protocol are > laughably > > incompetent to design any such thing, however they are mostly very > > motivated, really DO want to figure out how to help, and in an > overall > > sense of promoting the idea that autism is biomedical and should > be > > treated they are doing a wonderful public service. > > > > Really my only issue with DAN! is a small subset of their protocol > that > > is technically indefensible, dangerous, harmful, and not based on > > scientific reality. > > > > The fairly large part of their protocol that is either derived by > > logical extension of mainstream MD medicine, or is health care > > developed by other kinds of doctors, are just fine. > > > > Unfortunately for cultural reasons some of the DAN! doctors are > upset > > that I don't agree with them on 10% of the protocol rather than > being > > happy I do agree with them on the other 90%. > > > > > In Children with Starving Brains, Jaquelyn McCandless > discusses the use of TTFD with her patients, and calls it " benign > and beneficial and a welcome addition " as a treatment option for > autistic kids. > > > > I don't think that is her patient experience - at least that is > not > > what some of the parents tell me. > > > > It is also a cultural thing in MD medicine to not report on the > side > > effects, adverse reactions, and other problems. The mainstream > guys > > invented this bad habit, it is nothing special to DAN! > > > > > p. 267. She states that " it appears that those children who > can tolerate the glutathione especially benefit from the combination > of GSH [glutathione] with TTFD. " > > > > Nope. > > > > >p. 267. She further states that " the positive effects I am > noting with this treatment trio of injectable Vitamin B12, > transdermal TTFD and transdermal glutathione (GSH) are impressive > and exciting. " p. 275. > > > > For some people. Others get really messed up by it. Most of > those > > stop paying to go back and argue with her that their kid isn't > doing > > well on the treatment, and go find a doctor who offers a different > > treatment. Soon all doctors have a clinci full of patients doing > > marvelously on their pet treatment. This does NOT mean every > person on > > the street will do well on every one of those treatments! > > > > > Again, I'm no expert, which is why I rely (as so many > parents do) on the McCandless book (and the advice of our DAN > doctors). Has there been a change in scientific opinion since > publication of McCandless' book, or do you disagree with her > assessment? > > > > Her assessment was never correct. > > > > Science is based on observation (I think this is where I differ > with > > DAN!). Since it is observed that 20% of people have adverse > reactions > > to TTFD, no amount of theoretical blather or claims to the > contrary > > makes it wonderful and safe for everyone. > > > > Search the archives for TTFD problems, or ask people to contact > you > > privately if you need more information. .. . . . . . . > > > > >Thanks for sharing your knowledge. > > > > > > -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Andy, What amazes me (I'm still idealistic I guess) is that the literature is sooooo clear that oral glutathione does not seem to increase plasma glutathione and that using Vitamin C is. My feeling is that it is the over reliance on abstracts found on Medline and not ever reading the complete paper. That and the determination that the square peg will absolutely fit into the round hole regardless of reality. In health, Mark Schauss www.southwoodresearch.org www.carbonbased.com [ ] Re: Andy please Unfortunately, most DAN! doctors really don't know any more about physiology than about chelation so they think glutathione is relevant as a treatment. It isn't. All toxic people and most sick people have low measured glutathione. This simply indicates it is being consumed by excessive oxidative stress. The body makes it relatively rapidly, giving people some is seldom helpful. The body makes glutathione using an enzyme (glutathione synthetase) that puts cysteine together with other stuff to make glutathione, and that goes faster the less glutathione is around (this is called allosteric control - a very clever way the body regulates what it does). So people with low glutathione are making it fast and using it up fast. Those with high cysteine and low glutathione are making it double fast. Giving them more isn't the solution. Doing something about the oxidative stress is the solution. What you want to know is cysteine. If low, give them lots of sulfury stuff so the body can make more, and thus more glutathione, otherwise don't give them more. The best way to raise glutathione is with ancillary antioxidants like vitamin C 4 times a day and vitamin E. If interpretation of tests is so obvious that all you do is give people whatever is low, why do doctors need licenses? Why not just let high school grads hang out a shingle? For the tests they are taught in school they realize a lot of knowledge and understanding is requried (e. g. elevated MCV - big red blood cells - does not mean you eat too much so your blood cells are getting fat). This is equally true of the more modern (also known as alternative) tests that they weren't taught about in school. Andy . . . . . . . . . . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 1, 2004 Report Share Posted April 1, 2004 Thank you very much. The dr recommended giving her 1200mg of NAC N- Acetyl Cysteine a day to help raise the level of glutathione. Will this work or even be helpful? > > > > Andy, > > > > > > > > I appreciate your responding to my question about TTFD, > > though I admit I was surprised by it. I am certainly no expert > > about these matters, which is why I posted in the first place. I > > can use all the info I can get. In that spirit, it would be helpful > > if you could give us some background upon which you have these > > strong opinions about TTFD and our DAN doctor's competence. > > > > > > > > Why do you feel that TTFD is " inappropriate and dangerous " ? > > > > > > The reported adverse reaction rate is 20%. An adverse reaction is > > a > > > severe problem that leads to at least long term serious worsening > > and > > > often requires further medical attention. > > > > > > TTFD does not remove any heavy metals. The paper by Lonsdale is > > > conclusive on this. His words say it does, but his data says it > > does > > > not. There is no chemical reason one would expect it to either. > > I > > > also went to the trouble to wheedle a lot of people out of test > > results > > > with and without TTFD to double check thins, and the tests that > > lots of > > > people did also showed TTFD does not increase heavy metal > > clearance. > > > > > > >Is your concern about the TTFD, > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > or the MB-12, > > > > > > There is some concern about the m-b-12, but less. It is true that > > there > > > are frequent adverse reactions to this, but there are also > > frequent > > > substantial improvements, and it is addressing a condition that is > > > reasonably believed to have the potential to cause permanent, > > > irreversible damage if not treated in a timely manner. Also the > > adverse > > > reaction is a few months of agitated anger with no motivation. > > This is > > > not very serious for a small child. Once they are big enough to > > be > > > physically dangerous to adult caretakers it is an entirely > > different > > > matter. > > > > > > >or both? Do you have concerns about the DAN movement in > > general? > > > > > > Yes and no. > > > > > > The people in charge of coming up with their protocol are > > laughably > > > incompetent to design any such thing, however they are mostly very > > > motivated, really DO want to figure out how to help, and in an > > overall > > > sense of promoting the idea that autism is biomedical and should > > be > > > treated they are doing a wonderful public service. > > > > > > Really my only issue with DAN! is a small subset of their protocol > > that > > > is technically indefensible, dangerous, harmful, and not based on > > > scientific reality. > > > > > > The fairly large part of their protocol that is either derived by > > > logical extension of mainstream MD medicine, or is health care > > > developed by other kinds of doctors, are just fine. > > > > > > Unfortunately for cultural reasons some of the DAN! doctors are > > upset > > > that I don't agree with them on 10% of the protocol rather than > > being > > > happy I do agree with them on the other 90%. > > > > > > > In Children with Starving Brains, Jaquelyn McCandless > > discusses the use of TTFD with her patients, and calls it " benign > > and beneficial and a welcome addition " as a treatment option for > > autistic kids. > > > > > > I don't think that is her patient experience - at least that is > > not > > > what some of the parents tell me. > > > > > > It is also a cultural thing in MD medicine to not report on the > > side > > > effects, adverse reactions, and other problems. The mainstream > > guys > > > invented this bad habit, it is nothing special to DAN! > > > > > > > p. 267. She states that " it appears that those children who > > can tolerate the glutathione especially benefit from the combination > > of GSH [glutathione] with TTFD. " > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > >p. 267. She further states that " the positive effects I am > > noting with this treatment trio of injectable Vitamin B12, > > transdermal TTFD and transdermal glutathione (GSH) are impressive > > and exciting. " p. 275. > > > > > > For some people. Others get really messed up by it. Most of > > those > > > stop paying to go back and argue with her that their kid isn't > > doing > > > well on the treatment, and go find a doctor who offers a different > > > treatment. Soon all doctors have a clinci full of patients doing > > > marvelously on their pet treatment. This does NOT mean every > > person on > > > the street will do well on every one of those treatments! > > > > > > > Again, I'm no expert, which is why I rely (as so many > > parents do) on the McCandless book (and the advice of our DAN > > doctors). Has there been a change in scientific opinion since > > publication of McCandless' book, or do you disagree with her > > assessment? > > > > > > Her assessment was never correct. > > > > > > Science is based on observation (I think this is where I differ > > with > > > DAN!). Since it is observed that 20% of people have adverse > > reactions > > > to TTFD, no amount of theoretical blather or claims to the > > contrary > > > makes it wonderful and safe for everyone. > > > > > > Search the archives for TTFD problems, or ask people to contact > > you > > > privately if you need more information. .. . . . . . . > > > > > > >Thanks for sharing your knowledge. > > > > > > > > -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2004 Report Share Posted April 5, 2004 > Andy, > > What amazes me (I'm still idealistic I guess) is that the literature is > sooooo clear that oral glutathione does not seem to increase plasma > glutathione and that using Vitamin C is. My feeling is that it is the > over reliance on abstracts found on Medline and not ever reading the > complete paper. Yup. Let's try a poll of our two big offenders here on list. , , how many of the papers that you post abstracts of did you read before you posted the abstract? Where did you get them? How do you find time to read so many papers when I find it takes at least half a day to do even a simple one justice? And how many of them have you found where the abtract bears no real relationship to what is in the paper? I find that all the time. > That and the determination that the square peg will > absolutely fit into the round hole regardless of reality. I never found it hard to fit square pegs into round holes. Just takes a big enough sledgehammer. Not very good for the peg or the hole but it does work. > In health, > Mark Schauss > www.southwoodresearch.org > www.carbonbased.com > > > Unfortunately, most DAN! doctors really don't know any more about > physiology than about chelation so they think glutathione is relevant > as a treatment. It isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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