Re: holocaust

[Guest guest]

Judith-

The hardest part about coming to terms with my years in AA is knowing that AA is simply an invitation to weakness, the payoff being company of people who will help you believe that it's okay to stay weak. For instance, making amends is part of being a good, strong person, but beginning those amends with "I'm an alcoholic trying to stay sober," drops all responsibility.

holocaust

It's 5:30 on Monday morning. As I frequently do, I woke up and began worrying about things. Part of me was freaked out with anxiety--I mean freaked out, ready to lose it, barely able to control my emotions. So I began talking back to that part of myself. Not with 12 step emotional babyfood about a higher power taking care of me, but with the truth of the matter: that I do my best to stay on top of my responsibilities, and excessive anxiety does NOT help me to be more productive. It immobilizes me.This anxiety holds hands and walks with the part of me that is verbally abusive. I don't have anxiety attacks--generally, when I get very anxious, I lash out. I'm trying to learn how to ease up on myself before I get to that point, because I always feel so guilty after I lose my tempter. In fact, now I'm able in my offscreen life to express mild irritation when it happens; it's something I've had to work through with my husband because his reaction to my irritation has often led us to have big, intractable, hurtful fights. That is a family-related thing in general, the "you shouldn't say that" reaction when I have a problem. I express an emotion relatively mildly, and the person I express that emotion with, loses their temper because *I'm* so emotional, *I* shouldn't have said what I said. In other words, they have an emotional overload because I expressed an emotion in a controlled way, and they think *I* am the one whose behavior needs to change.I'm also trying to learn to cut myself some slack when I do get irritable, and remember that while it's not socially acceptable to lose one's temper, it is necessary to express it when I feel something is unfair. It is necessary at work for me to express it when I think I may not be able to finish something, or when I feel frustrated because I don't have the necessary resources to do something that is expected of me. OK. So what does this have to do with the 12 steps, and why is this post called "holocaust"?Because before 12 step treatment, I had an integrated identity. I was not fractured, I was not split with the good against the bad inside myself. My parents, my mother especially, had used the parenting techniques she knew to control me--mostly shame--but I fought her, and I felt good about fighting that shame. I knew innately that it wasn't healthy or helpful. I knew innately the difference between remorse over things I regret, vs. shame over things I can't control. The idea of holocaust is relevant because I feel that the role of treatment was very much the role that Hitler played for Germany when he took power--or was elected, the history I've read is divided on this point. One of the main reasons I came here to 12sf was to figure out why I voluntarily entered treatment; since coming here I've figured out that it wasn't really voluntary. I was vulnerable when I entered treatment; I trusted the wrong person because my life felt out of control. So, while I wasn't threatened with loss of freedom or lose of a job, still I was coerced into treatment.See the similarity between Treatment and Hitler? If you wanted to defend Hitler, you would choose words like "elected" rather than "coerced". You would focus on making the trains run on time, you would focus on the strength of the economy. You'd give Hitler credit for making these things happen. If you wanted to defend Treatment, you would focus on the fact that I didn't drink or smoke pot for a few years. You would conveniently ignore violence toward marginalized groups under Hitler; you would conveniently ignore my greatly increased and intensified suicidal ideation in Treatment, that I couldn't hold a job for more than 6 months.Slowly I am recovering from my spiritual holocaust, but I've come to the conclusion that I may never be fully integrated ever again. I will always see these different and disparate parts of myself inside, because I have to. In order to function, to make it through the day without dissolving into tears, I have to work consciously to keep the parts of my personality working together. It's not the worst thing that could happen to a person, granted. A year of competent therapy has made a big difference. But I would have been much better off getting a year of competent therapy in 1984, instead of incompetent treatment. My life would have been very different.At this point, I'm putting my life back together. I took 5 years and was self-employed; that period of 5 years culminated in the therapy I went through starting in summer of 99. Writing here has been a very big part of that therapy; meeting other people who had gone through what I have gone through helped me see that the problem is outside me, not within me. The problem is a treatment community, overlapping with other communities (political, legal, educational, religious), that doesn't see the difference between helping someone and harming them. That minimizes the harm done, and casts aspersions on the integrity of people who speak honestly about being harmed by AA and the 12 steps.I just snipped a long description of how I think society should be, because that's not a discussion I want to have here. There is a place for me to express those ideas and that is the realm of public policy, and that is where I'm headed next. I'm not sure how I'll do that but I'm pretty certain that's where I'm going. And I'm damned sure that the time I've spent here, learning about myself and learning ideas that helped me describe my experience, has been essential in shaping my approach to public policy.It's about 6:30 am now, and I need to start hustling to get ready for work. Later dudes.judith

[Guest guest]

Judith,

I can relate entirely to what you are saying. I, too, felt fragmented

after treatment, and unable to react to things the way I used to as

well as feeling that the way I would have reacted prior to treatment

was unacceptable to the Program.

The difference is, that instead of becoming irritable, I became

stone-faced, " no affect, " as they say. I would have preferred to be

irritable.

I think it is possible to become intact again, so don't give up hope.

In particular, put yourself back in the days when you knew you were

strong, and you knew you were doing the right thing, and try to bring

that knowledge into the present, realizing that you have learned some

things along the way. Perhaps, in part, what you regret as the loss

of an intact person and the assumption of a fragmented one is simply

the realization that things are not simple, and if we keep learning as

we get older, we see that things are complex in many ways that we had

not seen before.

Hope this makes sense.

> It's 5:30 on Monday morning. As I frequently do, I woke up and began

> worrying about things. Part of me was freaked out with anxiety--I

mean

> freaked out, ready to lose it, barely able to control my emotions.

So

> I began talking back to that part of myself. Not with 12 step

> emotional babyfood about a higher power taking care of me, but with

> the truth of the matter: that I do my best to stay on top of my

> responsibilities, and excessive anxiety does NOT help me to be more

> productive. It immobilizes me.

>

> This anxiety holds hands and walks with the part of me that is

> verbally abusive. I don't have anxiety attacks--generally, when I

get

> very anxious, I lash out. I'm trying to learn how to ease up on

myself

> before I get to that point, because I always feel so guilty after I

> lose my tempter.

>

> In fact, now I'm able in my offscreen life to express mild

irritation

> when it happens; it's something I've had to work through with my

> husband because his reaction to my irritation has often led us to

have

> big, intractable, hurtful fights. That is a family-related thing in

> general, the " you shouldn't say that " reaction when I have a

problem.

> I express an emotion relatively mildly, and the person I express

that

> emotion with, loses their temper because *I'm* so emotional, *I*

> shouldn't have said what I said. In other words, they have an

> emotional overload because I expressed an emotion in a controlled

way,

> and they think *I* am the one whose behavior needs to change.

>

> I'm also trying to learn to cut myself some slack when I do get

> irritable, and remember that while it's not socially acceptable to

> lose one's temper, it is necessary to express it when I feel

something

> is unfair. It is necessary at work for me to express it when I think

I

> may not be able to finish something, or when I feel frustrated

because

> I don't have the necessary resources to do something that is

expected

> of me.

>

> OK. So what does this have to do with the 12 steps, and why is this

> post called " holocaust " ?

>

> Because before 12 step treatment, I had an integrated identity. I

was

> not fractured, I was not split with the good against the bad inside

> myself. My parents, my mother especially, had used the parenting

> techniques she knew to control me--mostly shame--but I fought her,

and

> I felt good about fighting that shame. I knew innately that it

wasn't

> healthy or helpful. I knew innately the difference between remorse

> over things I regret, vs. shame over things I can't control.

>

> The idea of holocaust is relevant because I feel that the role of

> treatment was very much the role that Hitler played for Germany when

> he took power--or was elected, the history I've read is divided on

> this point. One of the main reasons I came here to 12sf was to

figure

> out why I voluntarily entered treatment; since coming here I've

> figured out that it wasn't really voluntary. I was vulnerable when I

> entered treatment; I trusted the wrong person because my life felt

out

> of control. So, while I wasn't threatened with loss of freedom or

lose

> of a job, still I was coerced into treatment.

>

> See the similarity between Treatment and Hitler? If you wanted to

> defend Hitler, you would choose words like " elected " rather than

> " coerced " . You would focus on making the trains run on time, you

would

> focus on the strength of the economy. You'd give Hitler credit for

> making these things happen. If you wanted to defend Treatment, you

> would focus on the fact that I didn't drink or smoke pot for a few

> years. You would conveniently ignore violence toward marginalized

> groups under Hitler; you would conveniently ignore my greatly

> increased and intensified suicidal ideation in Treatment, that I

> couldn't hold a job for more than 6 months.

>

> Slowly I am recovering from my spiritual holocaust, but I've come to

> the conclusion that I may never be fully integrated ever again. I

will

> always see these different and disparate parts of myself inside,

> because I have to. In order to function, to make it through the day

> without dissolving into tears, I have to work consciously to keep

the

> parts of my personality working together.

>

> It's not the worst thing that could happen to a person, granted. A

> year of competent therapy has made a big difference. But I would

have

> been much better off getting a year of competent therapy in 1984,

> instead of incompetent treatment. My life would have been very

> different.

>

> At this point, I'm putting my life back together. I took 5 years and

> was self-employed; that period of 5 years culminated in the therapy

I

> went through starting in summer of 99. Writing here has been a very

> big part of that therapy; meeting other people who had gone through

> what I have gone through helped me see that the problem is outside

me,

> not within me. The problem is a treatment community, overlapping

with

> other communities (political, legal, educational, religious), that

> doesn't see the difference between helping someone and harming them.

> That minimizes the harm done, and casts aspersions on the integrity

of

> people who speak honestly about being harmed by AA and the 12 steps.

>

> I just snipped a long description of how I think society should be,

> because that's not a discussion I want to have here. There is a

place

> for me to express those ideas and that is the realm of public

policy,

> and that is where I'm headed next. I'm not sure how I'll do that but

> I'm pretty certain that's where I'm going. And I'm damned sure that

> the time I've spent here, learning about myself and learning ideas

> that helped me describe my experience, has been essential in shaping

> my approach to public policy.

>

> It's about 6:30 am now, and I need to start hustling to get ready

for

> work. Later dudes.

>

> judith

[Guest guest]

Hi Judith.

Thanks Judith. I think your post is very interesting. Not just because it's

not about guns. The weapon thread really surprised me, but I think I learned

something about cultural differences at a deeper level than before.

In Europe and the rest of the world the US culture is so strong, that none

is unaffected, and Denmark is a little modern export country that rapidly

accommodates to the world rules. But because the american culture has been

exported to Scandinavia since the 50's, we have a more or less precise

conception of the US mentality. But it's not the other way around, and

therefore we can sometimes see you more clearly than you can yourself.

Because you have (for the time being) the ability to beat the shit out of

anybody, why should you bother about their native way of thinking?

That's what the weapon thread is associated to. IMO.

Then to your post.

Anxiety is not a bad thing only, although I admit it's more interesting when

others have it, rather than yourself.

I've read it thrice, and thought very carefully about it, and there was a

lot of things that I wanted to comment on.

But I'll try to be short and make my comments in logical order. The most

important comments come first etc.

1. You don't need understanding, you need support and a mental tool.

2. You think you have beaten your mother, but you haven't.

3. You don't have to struggle with your conflicting parts the rest of your

life.

Bjørn

P.S.

I've been so surprised by the emotional sensitivity of americans, that I'm

afraid I've offended you because I lack the understanding of your native

customs regarding proper communication. So please, just attack me if it

makes you feel better

..

Me again.

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> It's 5:30 on Monday morning. As I frequently do, I woke up and began

> worrying about things. Part of me was freaked out with anxiety--I mean

> freaked out, ready to lose it, barely able to control my emotions. So

> I began talking back to that part of myself. Not with 12 step

> emotional babyfood about a higher power taking care of me, but with

> the truth of the matter: that I do my best to stay on top of my

> responsibilities, and excessive anxiety does NOT help me to be more

> productive. It immobilizes me.

>

> This anxiety holds hands and walks with the part of me that is

> verbally abusive. I don't have anxiety attacks--generally, when I get

> very anxious, I lash out. I'm trying to learn how to ease up on myself

> before I get to that point, because I always feel so guilty after I

> lose my tempter.

>

> In fact, now I'm able in my offscreen life to express mild irritation

> when it happens; it's something I've had to work through with my

> husband because his reaction to my irritation has often led us to have

> big, intractable, hurtful fights. That is a family-related thing in

> general, the " you shouldn't say that " reaction when I have a problem.

> I express an emotion relatively mildly, and the person I express that

> emotion with, loses their temper because *I'm* so emotional, *I*

> shouldn't have said what I said. In other words, they have an

> emotional overload because I expressed an emotion in a controlled way,

> and they think *I* am the one whose behavior needs to change.

>

> I'm also trying to learn to cut myself some slack when I do get

> irritable, and remember that while it's not socially acceptable to

> lose one's temper, it is necessary to express it when I feel something

> is unfair. It is necessary at work for me to express it when I think I

> may not be able to finish something, or when I feel frustrated because

> I don't have the necessary resources to do something that is expected

> of me.

>

> OK. So what does this have to do with the 12 steps, and why is this

> post called " holocaust " ?

>

> Because before 12 step treatment, I had an integrated identity. I was

> not fractured, I was not split with the good against the bad inside

> myself. My parents, my mother especially, had used the parenting

> techniques she knew to control me--mostly shame--but I fought her, and

> I felt good about fighting that shame. I knew innately that it wasn't

> healthy or helpful. I knew innately the difference between remorse

> over things I regret, vs. shame over things I can't control.

>

> The idea of holocaust is relevant because I feel that the role of

> treatment was very much the role that Hitler played for Germany when

> he took power--or was elected, the history I've read is divided on

> this point. One of the main reasons I came here to 12sf was to figure

> out why I voluntarily entered treatment; since coming here I've

> figured out that it wasn't really voluntary. I was vulnerable when I

> entered treatment; I trusted the wrong person because my life felt out

> of control. So, while I wasn't threatened with loss of freedom or lose

> of a job, still I was coerced into treatment.

>

> See the similarity between Treatment and Hitler? If you wanted to

> defend Hitler, you would choose words like " elected " rather than

> " coerced " . You would focus on making the trains run on time, you would

> focus on the strength of the economy. You'd give Hitler credit for

> making these things happen. If you wanted to defend Treatment, you

> would focus on the fact that I didn't drink or smoke pot for a few

> years. You would conveniently ignore violence toward marginalized

> groups under Hitler; you would conveniently ignore my greatly

> increased and intensified suicidal ideation in Treatment, that I

> couldn't hold a job for more than 6 months.

>

> Slowly I am recovering from my spiritual holocaust, but I've come to

> the conclusion that I may never be fully integrated ever again. I will

> always see these different and disparate parts of myself inside,

> because I have to. In order to function, to make it through the day

> without dissolving into tears, I have to work consciously to keep the

> parts of my personality working together.

>

> It's not the worst thing that could happen to a person, granted. A

> year of competent therapy has made a big difference. But I would have

> been much better off getting a year of competent therapy in 1984,

> instead of incompetent treatment. My life would have been very

> different.

>

> At this point, I'm putting my life back together. I took 5 years and

> was self-employed; that period of 5 years culminated in the therapy I

> went through starting in summer of 99. Writing here has been a very

> big part of that therapy; meeting other people who had gone through

> what I have gone through helped me see that the problem is outside me,

> not within me. The problem is a treatment community, overlapping with

> other communities (political, legal, educational, religious), that

> doesn't see the difference between helping someone and harming them.

> That minimizes the harm done, and casts aspersions on the integrity of

> people who speak honestly about being harmed by AA and the 12 steps.

>

> I just snipped a long description of how I think society should be,

> because that's not a discussion I want to have here. There is a place

> for me to express those ideas and that is the realm of public policy,

> and that is where I'm headed next. I'm not sure how I'll do that but

> I'm pretty certain that's where I'm going. And I'm damned sure that

> the time I've spent here, learning about myself and learning ideas

> that helped me describe my experience, has been essential in shaping

> my approach to public policy.

>

> It's about 6:30 am now, and I need to start hustling to get ready for

> work. Later dudes.

>

> judith

>

[Guest guest]

What you say makes total sense, Kayleigh. I really liked the way you

put it. I can't say enough what a relief it is to find intelligent,

sane people who have been through what I've been through. This list

has brought me lightyears in terms of recovery from recovery.

judith

> Judith,

>

> I can relate entirely to what you are saying. I, too, felt

fragmented

> after treatment, and unable to react to things the way I used to as

> well as feeling that the way I would have reacted prior to treatment

> was unacceptable to the Program.

>

> The difference is, that instead of becoming irritable, I became

> stone-faced, " no affect, " as they say. I would have preferred to be

> irritable.

>

> I think it is possible to become intact again, so don't give up

hope.

> In particular, put yourself back in the days when you knew you were

> strong, and you knew you were doing the right thing, and try to

bring

> that knowledge into the present, realizing that you have learned

some

> things along the way. Perhaps, in part, what you regret as the loss

> of an intact person and the assumption of a fragmented one is simply

> the realization that things are not simple, and if we keep learning

as

> we get older, we see that things are complex in many ways that we

had

> not seen before.

>

> Hope this makes sense.

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Bjørn. First things first, you haven't said anything that offended

me, but if you do I promise I'll let you know as directly and gently

as possible

I want to hear more about these:

> 1. You don't need understanding, you need support and a mental tool.

>

> 2. You think you have beaten your mother, but you haven't.

>

> 3. You don't have to struggle with your conflicting parts the rest

of your life.

I may not agree with your ideas but I would like to hear them. I know

that you see something about me that I don't see about myself and I

trust you to be...well, we've talked about a lot of things and had no

real major misunderstandings (at least on my end).

I do agree that

" Anxiety is not a bad thing only, although I admit it's more

interesting when others have it, rather than yourself. "

And that reminds me of a song by Steve Goodman:

" It ain't hard to get along with

somebody else's troubles

and they don't make you

lose any sleep at night

Just as long as fate is out there

burstin' somebody else's bubble,

everything's gonna be alright,

everything's gonna be alright... "

I can't believe you read it 3 times.

judith

> Hi Judith.

>

> Thanks Judith. I think your post is very interesting. Not just

because it's

> not about guns. The weapon thread really surprised me, but I think I

learned

> something about cultural differences at a deeper level than before.

> In Europe and the rest of the world the US culture is so strong,

that none

> is unaffected, and Denmark is a little modern export country that

rapidly

> accommodates to the world rules. But because the american culture

has been

> exported to Scandinavia since the 50's, we have a more or less

precise

> conception of the US mentality. But it's not the other way around,

and

> therefore we can sometimes see you more clearly than you can

yourself.

> Because you have (for the time being) the ability to beat the shit

out of

> anybody, why should you bother about their native way of thinking?

> That's what the weapon thread is associated to. IMO.

>

> Then to your post.

> Anxiety is not a bad thing only, although I admit it's more

interesting when

> others have it, rather than yourself.

> I've read it thrice, and thought very carefully about it, and there

was a

> lot of things that I wanted to comment on.

> But I'll try to be short and make my comments in logical order. The

most

> important comments come first etc.

>

> 1. You don't need understanding, you need support and a mental tool.

>

> 2. You think you have beaten your mother, but you haven't.

>

> 3. You don't have to struggle with your conflicting parts the rest

of your

> life.

>

> Bjørn

>

> P.S.

>

> I've been so surprised by the emotional sensitivity of americans,

that I'm

> afraid I've offended you because I lack the understanding of your

native

> customs regarding proper communication. So please, just attack me if

it

> makes you feel better

> .

> Me again.

[Guest guest]

> (1) Hunting is a very popular, very traditional pastime. There is a

huge

> quantity of land that is open to hunting for anybody. I live in a

relatively

> 'liberal' & developed eastern state with some of the strictest

gun-control

> laws anywhere, and yet every autumn I hear the blasts of duck and

deer

> hunters as shots are fired a few hundred yards from my home. We are

still a

> " wilderness " culture; only a couple of generations back many of our

> ancestors depended on hunting for a part of their food supply. In

poorer

> areas, some people probably still do. For those who don't really

need to

> hunt, it remains a symbolic expression of self-reliance as well as a

> challenging outdoor recreation.

There are people in the US who hunt and fish for subsistence, not

sport.

> US " culture " may seem to be insular, but on the other hand it is

also quite

> diverse. I have neighbors and acquaintances who consider themselves

> " Swedish " , " Greek " , " Armenian " , " Russian " , " African " , " Jewish " etc.

etc. You

> might feel left out because all these other groups have their own

community

> centers and churches and the Danes don't. But that's your fault --

Denmark

> evidently never had the kind of social or economic upheaval that

would have

> sent us large enough numbers of immigrants.

I was in a class with a Korean woman who had been adopted by a

white Minnesotan family. She talked about visiting Europe and

commented how " everyone looked the same " in places that had not had

the same immigrant influx as Minneapolis. My neighbors are diverse

too. Many places in Minnesota are very segregated, though; the town I

grew up in was.

> Your comment that " we " can " beat the shit out of anybody, " and that

this

> affects how we deal with the rest of the world, is accurate. But,

given

> that, don't you think that " we " have been much more restrained in

the

> exercise of that power than many other nations would have been? And

the

> solution is what? Restore the Soviet Union so that there is somebody

we

> can't beat?

And also, we are damned if we do and damned if we don't. If we send

troops to a conflict, we are interventionist; if we don't we're

isolationist.

judith

[Guest guest]

I am glad to be of help.

> > Judith,

> >

> > I can relate entirely to what you are saying. I, too, felt

> fragmented

> > after treatment, and unable to react to things the way I used to

as

> > well as feeling that the way I would have reacted prior to

treatment

> > was unacceptable to the Program.

> >

> > The difference is, that instead of becoming irritable, I became

> > stone-faced, " no affect, " as they say. I would have preferred to

be

> > irritable.

> >

> > I think it is possible to become intact again, so don't give up

> hope.

> > In particular, put yourself back in the days when you knew you

were

> > strong, and you knew you were doing the right thing, and try to

> bring

> > that knowledge into the present, realizing that you have learned

> some

> > things along the way. Perhaps, in part, what you regret as the

loss

> > of an intact person and the assumption of a fragmented one is

simply

> > the realization that things are not simple, and if we keep

learning

> as

> > we get older, we see that things are complex in many ways that we

> had

> > not seen before.

> >

> > Hope this makes sense.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Judith;

I had panic attacks(but didn't know what they were) before I ever

went to treatment the first time in 1969.

After a LOT of treatments, I had the same experience you

mentioned. Anxiety coupled with anger. What's more I'd get

uncoordinated, tip things over, drop things, screw up what I was

working on etc. The more I'd attempt to control it, the worse it

would get. I wasn't fit company for man nor beast.

Today I discovered I was banned from the local hospital and all

doctors with privileges there. I couldn't even get my heart

medication refilled, why? Because I refused to go to treatment over

a year ago, after being detoxed. Having only enough medication to

last out the day, I started getting a bit anxious. Without it, death is

a possibility. Actually a certainty after a while.

I finally got an appointment in a town 40 miles away for Tuesday

afternoon and can only hope they don't refuse me when I get there.

Anyway, I had two years of therapy and the panic attacks went

away. However, I noticed today that I began bumping into things,

spilled water all over the kitchen floor and was walking around with

my jaws tight! A real no funner.

Fortunately I'm living alone and Lover Boy is out chasing the girls. I

did manage to be nice to him while he was in the house.

The worst seems to be passed so a hot shower and a nap before I

have to see the doc.

Till later,

[Guest guest]

> Today I discovered I was banned from the local hospital and all

> doctors with privileges there. I couldn't even get my heart

> medication refilled, why? Because I refused to go to treatment over

> a year ago, after being detoxed. Having only enough medication to

> last out the day, I started getting a bit anxious. Without it,

death is

> a possibility. Actually a certainty after a while.

>

> I finally got an appointment in a town 40 miles away for Tuesday

> afternoon and can only hope they don't refuse me when I get there.

, this makes me so angry. I can't even find the words. This seems

to me a matter for the ACLU, because you really are being given no

choice. Who is behind this decision to withhold health care? How do

they justify withholding necessary medication? I'm glad you got an

appointment in another town but withholding health care because

someone won't do 12 step treatment is just too much.

> Anyway, I had two years of therapy and the panic attacks went

> away. However, I noticed today that I began bumping into things,

> spilled water all over the kitchen floor and was walking around with

> my jaws tight! A real no funner.

>

> Fortunately I'm living alone and Lover Boy is out chasing the girls.

I

> did manage to be nice to him while he was in the house.

>

> The worst seems to be passed so a hot shower and a nap before I

> have to see the doc.

My best to you, . Hang in there, OK? I promise I will too.

judith

[Guest guest]

> Judith-

>

> The hardest part about coming to terms with my years in AA is

knowing that AA is simply an invitation to weakness, the payoff being

company of people who will help you believe that it's okay to stay

weak. For instance, making amends is part of being a good, strong

person, but beginning those amends with " I'm an alcoholic trying to

stay sober, " drops all responsibility.

Yes, I agree. 12 step treatment appealed to what is weakest in me. You

could almost say AA strengthened my weakness.

judith

[Guest guest]

Re: holocaust

>

> > Judith-

> >

> > The hardest part about coming to terms with my years in AA is

> knowing that AA is simply an invitation to weakness, the payoff being

> company of people who will help you believe that it's okay to stay

> weak. For instance, making amends is part of being a good, strong

> person, but beginning those amends with " I'm an alcoholic trying to

> stay sober, " drops all responsibility.

>

> Yes, I agree. 12 step treatment appealed to what is weakest in me. You

> could almost say AA strengthened my weakness.

>

> judith

I was reading a book about courage. It seems to me that AA appeals to

those without courage or those who are trying to get up some courage.

Though the serenity prayer mentions it, I don't think AA does much to

instill it.

[Guest guest]

Hello Judith.

When I read your post it struck how similar your relation to your mother and

husband seemed. Therefore I stated that you didn't have beaten your mother.

This is an analytical statement, which says that you are repeating something

you think you have overcome.

Then to the sentence that says that you don't need understanding.

Here I'm guessing, but I believe that what you wanted from your mother was

understanding, but you never felt she did understand you. Then now maybe,

your husband doesn't understand you either on a deeper emotional level that

you have missed in your childhood, and don't know what is, should you ever

meet it. Therefore, of course, you are behaving childish and think it's your

damn right, because it makes you feel better. I don't agree with this

because I believe it will be destructive in the long run.

The general impression I got from your post was, that you are stressing

yourself into a vicious circle and at the same time assuring yourself about,

that everything is OK.

And still guessing:

The more you demand of yourself, the more faults will you find, and these

might be used in a self degrading manner making you more stressed etc.

Well, if I'm far out, I'm ready to apologize. I must admit that's there a

lot I don't understand about you folks.

Bjørn

Judith Stillwater wrote:

> Hey Bjørn. First things first, you haven't said anything that offended

> me, but if you do I promise I'll let you know as directly and gently

> as possible

>

> I want to hear more about these:

>

> > 1. You don't need understanding, you need support and a mental tool.

> >

> > 2. You think you have beaten your mother, but you haven't.

> >

> > 3. You don't have to struggle with your conflicting parts the rest

> of your life.

>

> I may not agree with your ideas but I would like to hear them. I know

> that you see something about me that I don't see about myself and I

> trust you to be...well, we've talked about a lot of things and had no

> real major misunderstandings (at least on my end).

>

> I do agree that

>

> " Anxiety is not a bad thing only, although I admit it's more

> interesting when others have it, rather than yourself. "

>

> And that reminds me of a song by Steve Goodman:

>

> " It ain't hard to get along with

> somebody else's troubles

> and they don't make you

> lose any sleep at night

>

> Just as long as fate is out there

> burstin' somebody else's bubble,

> everything's gonna be alright,

> everything's gonna be alright... "

>

> I can't believe you read it 3 times.

>

> judith

>

>

> > Hi Judith.

> >

> > Thanks Judith. I think your post is very interesting. Not just

> because it's

> > not about guns. The weapon thread really surprised me, but I think I

> learned

> > something about cultural differences at a deeper level than before.

> > In Europe and the rest of the world the US culture is so strong,

> that none

> > is unaffected, and Denmark is a little modern export country that

> rapidly

> > accommodates to the world rules. But because the american culture

> has been

> > exported to Scandinavia since the 50's, we have a more or less

> precise

> > conception of the US mentality. But it's not the other way around,

> and

> > therefore we can sometimes see you more clearly than you can

> yourself.

> > Because you have (for the time being) the ability to beat the shit

> out of

> > anybody, why should you bother about their native way of thinking?

> > That's what the weapon thread is associated to. IMO.

> >

> > Then to your post.

> > Anxiety is not a bad thing only, although I admit it's more

> interesting when

> > others have it, rather than yourself.

> > I've read it thrice, and thought very carefully about it, and there

> was a

> > lot of things that I wanted to comment on.

> > But I'll try to be short and make my comments in logical order. The

> most

> > important comments come first etc.

> >

> > 1. You don't need understanding, you need support and a mental tool.

> >

> > 2. You think you have beaten your mother, but you haven't.

> >

> > 3. You don't have to struggle with your conflicting parts the rest

> of your

> > life.

> >

> > Bjørn

> >

> > P.S.

> >

> > I've been so surprised by the emotional sensitivity of americans,

> that I'm

> > afraid I've offended you because I lack the understanding of your

> native

> > customs regarding proper communication. So please, just attack me if

> it

> > makes you feel better

> > .

> > Me again.

>

[Guest guest]

During all the time I went to AA, I never heard anyone talk about

" courage to change the things I can. " It was always " accept the

things I cannot change, " and virtually nothing could be changed,

according to the people I talked to. It's a very perverse

interpretation of the prayer.

>

> I was reading a book about courage. It seems to me that AA

appeals to

> those without courage or those who are trying to get up some

courage.

> Though the serenity prayer mentions it, I don't think AA does much

to

> instill it.

[Guest guest]

> He gave me the usual once over, prescribed my heart medication

> for a year and told me he'd get my records. Then he'll prescribe

> the rest of my meds and may want to make some changes, but

> not changes in the heart meds, unless time makes changes

> necessary. He did mention changing from Traxenne to Klonopin

> because I've been on traxenne for seven years and it metabolizes

> into Valium. He told me Klonopin was much less toxic and just as

> effective. Sounds good to me, because I get bomber headaches

> when I run out of traxenne.

>

>

,

FYI:

These are all benzos and they are all highly addicting--especially

Klonopin, which is much more powerfull. Dr. Ashton of the UK

is probably the foremost expert on these dangerous drugs. She

switches people from Klonopin to Valium before attempting a withdrawl

taper. You may be going the wrong way!

When I say addicting, I don't mean abuse or getting high. I mean they

have the most terrible protracted withdrawal syndrome when

discontinued. You can even die as the result of suddenly

discontinuing these meds. Most Docs don't know jack about the poison

they hand out. Long term use of benzos nearly always results in

deterioration and iatrogenic illness.

I am not a medical doctor. I only wish to give you the heads up and

the links to more info. YMMV.

See:

http://www.benzodiazepines.net/

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/raymond.nimmo/

Jim

[Guest guest]

When I was pretty new I brought it up once for a topic at a discussion

meeting. As I recall, the oldtimers' answers were something like this:

--First, where we get " courage " from is initially by relying on our

sponsors, then the group, the Fellowship, the Higher Power.

--Second, the " courage " is a special kind: just " to change the things I

can. " And what can I change? Only myself, and even that only with Help. I am

powerless to change " people, places, and things " so my only option is to

Accept them.

So it seems that Courage turns out to be yet another of those AA " special

words " in the language of non-thought.

--wally

Re: holocaust

> During all the time I went to AA, I never heard anyone talk about

> " courage to change the things I can. " It was always " accept the

> things I cannot change, " and virtually nothing could be changed,

> according to the people I talked to. It's a very perverse

> interpretation of the prayer.

>

>

> >

> > I was reading a book about courage. It seems to me that AA

> appeals to

> > those without courage or those who are trying to get up some

> courage.

> > Though the serenity prayer mentions it, I don't think AA does much

> to

> > instill it.

>

[Guest guest]

I challenge his Jim.

Adiction is not about withdrawal. Yes, benzos should NOT be

discontinued abruptly; they should be tapered off. So dont discontinue

them abruptly.

High doses for protracted periods should not be encouraged - but the

fear that these drugs provoke is well beyond what is merited. AA plays

a big role in the perpetuation of the myth.

P.

> ,

> FYI:

> These are all benzos and they are all highly addicting--especially

> Klonopin, which is much more powerfull. Dr. Ashton of the UK

> is probably the foremost expert on these dangerous drugs. She

> switches people from Klonopin to Valium before attempting a

withdrawl

> taper. You may be going the wrong way!

>

> When I say addicting, I don't mean abuse or getting high. I mean

they

> have the most terrible protracted withdrawal syndrome when

> discontinued. You can even die as the result of suddenly

> discontinuing these meds. Most Docs don't know jack about the poison

> they hand out. Long term use of benzos nearly always results in

> deterioration and iatrogenic illness.

>

> I am not a medical doctor. I only wish to give you the heads up and

> the links to more info. YMMV.

> See:

> http://www.benzodiazepines.net/

>

> http://homepage.ntlworld.com/raymond.nimmo/

>

> Jim

[Guest guest]

> I challenge his Jim.

>

> Adiction is not about withdrawal.

It is if you are on benzos. I'm not going to argue semantics.

>Yes, benzos should NOT be

> discontinued abruptly; they should be tapered off. So dont

discontinue

> them abruptly.

That's what I said. Are you aware that this process can take months

and even years? Please read the links.

> High doses for protracted periods should not be encouraged - but

the

> fear that these drugs provoke is well beyond what is merited.

Not fear, personal experience. I know hundreds of people with the the

same experience.

AA plays

> a big role in the perpetuation of the myth.

It's not a myth and it has nothing to do with AA.

Jim

[Guest guest]

> > Adiction is not about withdrawal.

>

> It is if you are on benzos. I'm not going to argue semantics.

Isnt that why you have just done? withdrawal is just *one* of the

criteria for the diagnosis of substance dependence. Ppl go through

withdrawal who arent addicted and some ppl who are addicted dont have

withdrawal.

>

> >Yes, benzos should NOT be

> > discontinued abruptly; they should be tapered off. So dont

> discontinue

> > them abruptly.

>

> That's what I said. Are you aware that this process can take months

> and even years? Please read the links.

Yes - but only after already prolonged exposure. If spomeone has

already taken benzos for 10 yrs, does it really matter if they take

another to taper off?

> Not fear, personal experience. I know hundreds of people with the

>the

> same experience.

There are benzo victims yes - but they tend to be those who have been

exposed to longterm high doses. This does notpreclude their sensible

use.

> It's not a myth and it has nothing to do with AA.

there are benzo myths - benzo use will inevitably make you binge on

alcohol, or that even lo dose brief exposure will result in you

becoming hopelessly addicted. These myhts are heavly promoted by AA.

P.

[Guest guest]

Oh dear, this is like arguing with a stepper. Fine, believe what you

will-- my purpose was to warn others so as not to suffer the hell I

have been thru. I'm not trying to make points. Draw your own

conclusions.

See the faq at:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/raymond.nimmo/

Jim

>

> > > Adiction is not about withdrawal.

> >

> > It is if you are on benzos. I'm not going to argue semantics.

>

> Isnt that why you have just done? withdrawal is just *one* of the

> criteria for the diagnosis of substance dependence. Ppl go through

> withdrawal who arent addicted and some ppl who are addicted dont

have

> withdrawal.

> >

> > >Yes, benzos should NOT be

> > > discontinued abruptly; they should be tapered off. So dont

> > discontinue

> > > them abruptly.

> >

> > That's what I said. Are you aware that this process can take

months

> > and even years? Please read the links.

>

> Yes - but only after already prolonged exposure. If spomeone has

> already taken benzos for 10 yrs, does it really matter if they take

> another to taper off?

>

> > Not fear, personal experience. I know hundreds of people with the

> >the

> > same experience.

>

> There are benzo victims yes - but they tend to be those who have

been

> exposed to longterm high doses. This does notpreclude their

sensible

> use.

>

> > It's not a myth and it has nothing to do with AA.

>

> there are benzo myths - benzo use will inevitably make you binge on

> alcohol, or that even lo dose brief exposure will result in you

> becoming hopelessly addicted. These myhts are heavly promoted by AA.

>

> P.

[Guest guest]

> Oh dear, this is like arguing with a stepper.

A cheap jibe, especially here.

> Fine, believe what you

> will-- my purpose was to warn others so as not to suffer the hell I

> have been thru. I'm not trying to make points. Draw your own

> conclusions.

... and I dont wish others to suffer unnecessarily either.

[Guest guest]

> Hello Judith.

>

> When I read your post it struck how similar your relation to your

mother and

> husband seemed. Therefore I stated that you didn't have beaten your

mother.

> This is an analytical statement, which says that you are repeating

something

> you think you have overcome.

I agree with this 100%.

> Then to the sentence that says that you don't need understanding.

> Here I'm guessing, but I believe that what you wanted from your

mother was

> understanding, but you never felt she did understand you. Then now

maybe,

> your husband doesn't understand you either on a deeper emotional

level that

> you have missed in your childhood, and don't know what is, should

you ever

> meet it. Therefore, of course, you are behaving childish and think

it's your

> damn right, because it makes you feel better. I don't agree with

this

> because I believe it will be destructive in the long run.

I don't want to see myself as behaving childish and thinking it's my

right to behave childishly, because that sounds bad. Still, what you

write makes a lot of sense.

> The general impression I got from your post was, that you are

stressing

> yourself into a vicious circle and at the same time assuring

yourself about,

> that everything is OK.

>

> And still guessing:

> The more you demand of yourself, the more faults will you find, and

these

> might be used in a self degrading manner making you more stressed

etc.

>

> Well, if I'm far out, I'm ready to apologize. I must admit that's

there a

> lot I don't understand about you folks.

I think you're right on the money in everything you say. I probably

would have been angry if I'd read this 2 years ago, but I've come

light years in self-awareness since I started examining my 12 step

experience.

It's helpful to hear how people from other countries perceive me, and

Americans in general. Sometimes I get offended but in general, I feel

that I learn something about myself, and also about the person who is

describing Americans.

I'm very critical of myself, the country I live in, and my fellow

citizens. Recently I heard the phrase " anti-American " to describe some

of my beliefs--I don't think it was on this list, but there has been a

lot of high emotion surrounding the current undecided

presidential election, both here on 12 step free and on

alt.support.depression, my other online community.

Anyway, when my ideas are described as " anti-American, " I start to

wonder. *I* am an American. I don't intend to sell sensitive military

secrets to other countries--I couldn't get access to sensitive

military intelligence if I tried my darnedest! But that's not why I

wouldn't harm the US. It's because, with all its faults, this country

is my home, and Americans are my people. And I'm getting choked up as

I write this because part of me really, truly loves this country and

its fucked-up population (which of course includes me).

And because I love this country and its citizens, I want to do right

by them. *That* is what motivates my beliefs. Bjørn, this is my

roundabout way of saying how much I appreciate your perspective, and

Pete Watts' perspective, even though sometimes you both express

yourselves with language that " pushes my buttons. " I think people

outside the US can see us more clearly in some ways. I think people

outside myself can see me more clearly than I can see myself.

Bottom line: I am richer for seeing myself through the eyes of others.

Can anyone tell I'm in a good mood because it's Friday? *I* certainly

can!

judith

[Guest guest]

This is an excellent discussion. This is how I remember acceptance and

change in AA too.

I remember that any discussion of change included the anxiety that

goes along with change. Since anxiety might lead to a lapse in

sobriety, change was inadvisable.

What never seemed to come up for discussion was the anxiety that

accompanies acceptance of the unacceptable. Let me think here because

I think this is an important concept for me...

Accepting the unacceptable. Allowing others to exploit or abuse me,

and criticizing myself when I get angry. Not having the outlet of

booze or pot to quell the initial anger, nor the resulting

self-criticism and shame. Talking about this at AA and having others

encourage me in self-criticism, and offering further criticism because

I felt ashamed.

If I were working my program, I would not feel the initial anger at

being abused or exploited (because I would know that I could only

change myself), nor would I feel the resulting self-criticism and

shame (because I would know that I should let go and let God take care

of me).

I'm just thinking out loud here.

judith

> > >

> > > I was reading a book about courage. It seems to me that AA

> > appeals to

> > > those without courage or those who are trying to get up some

> > courage.

> > > Though the serenity prayer mentions it, I don't think AA does

much

> > to

> > > instill it.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Judith,

By all means continue to " think out loud. " I always find your musings

worthwhile, even if 90% of the time I say nothing.

The things you are talking about -- emotions, change, actions and so on --

ebb and flow over time, and proceed sometimes in cycles. E. g., there is a

cycle of " everyday life " that sometimes gets interrupted by an awakening to

a sense of uneasiness (fear, anger, etc.) which increases until one must

think, decide, act (or not), and then it subsides into " everydayness " again,

with or without a change having been made. Is maybe one of the problems with

the Program approach that it trys to " freeze " what ought to be a normal (but

complex, only partially controllable) dynamic process?

--wally

Re: holocaust

> This is an excellent discussion. This is how I remember acceptance and

> change in AA too.

>

> I remember that any discussion of change included the anxiety that

> goes along with change. Since anxiety might lead to a lapse in

> sobriety, change was inadvisable.

>

> What never seemed to come up for discussion was the anxiety that

> accompanies acceptance of the unacceptable. Let me think here because

> I think this is an important concept for me...

>

> Accepting the unacceptable. Allowing others to exploit or abuse me,

> and criticizing myself when I get angry. Not having the outlet of

> booze or pot to quell the initial anger, nor the resulting

> self-criticism and shame. Talking about this at AA and having others

> encourage me in self-criticism, and offering further criticism because

> I felt ashamed.

>

> If I were working my program, I would not feel the initial anger at

> being abused or exploited (because I would know that I could only

> change myself), nor would I feel the resulting self-criticism and

> shame (because I would know that I should let go and let God take care

> of me).

>

> I'm just thinking out loud here.

>

> judith

>

>

[old quotes snipped]

[Guest guest]

Hello Judith.

Your response was such a big relief to me.

After all, I think this gun thread has been very constructive.

Bjørn

Judith Stillwater wrote:

>

> > Hello Judith.

> >

> > When I read your post it struck how similar your relation to your

> mother and

> > husband seemed. Therefore I stated that you didn't have beaten your

> mother.

> > This is an analytical statement, which says that you are repeating

> something

> > you think you have overcome.

>

> I agree with this 100%.

>

> > Then to the sentence that says that you don't need understanding.

> > Here I'm guessing, but I believe that what you wanted from your

> mother was

> > understanding, but you never felt she did understand you. Then now

> maybe,

> > your husband doesn't understand you either on a deeper emotional

> level that

> > you have missed in your childhood, and don't know what is, should

> you ever

> > meet it. Therefore, of course, you are behaving childish and think

> it's your

> > damn right, because it makes you feel better. I don't agree with

> this

> > because I believe it will be destructive in the long run.

>

> I don't want to see myself as behaving childish and thinking it's my

> right to behave childishly, because that sounds bad. Still, what you

> write makes a lot of sense.

>

> > The general impression I got from your post was, that you are

> stressing

> > yourself into a vicious circle and at the same time assuring

> yourself about,

> > that everything is OK.

> >

> > And still guessing:

> > The more you demand of yourself, the more faults will you find, and

> these

> > might be used in a self degrading manner making you more stressed

> etc.

> >

> > Well, if I'm far out, I'm ready to apologize. I must admit that's

> there a

> > lot I don't understand about you folks.

>

> I think you're right on the money in everything you say. I probably

> would have been angry if I'd read this 2 years ago, but I've come

> light years in self-awareness since I started examining my 12 step

> experience.

>

> It's helpful to hear how people from other countries perceive me, and

> Americans in general. Sometimes I get offended but in general, I feel

> that I learn something about myself, and also about the person who is

> describing Americans.

>

> I'm very critical of myself, the country I live in, and my fellow

> citizens. Recently I heard the phrase " anti-American " to describe some

> of my beliefs--I don't think it was on this list, but there has been a

> lot of high emotion surrounding the current undecided

> presidential election, both here on 12 step free and on

> alt.support.depression, my other online community.

>

> Anyway, when my ideas are described as " anti-American, " I start to

> wonder. *I* am an American. I don't intend to sell sensitive military

> secrets to other countries--I couldn't get access to sensitive

> military intelligence if I tried my darnedest! But that's not why I

> wouldn't harm the US. It's because, with all its faults, this country

> is my home, and Americans are my people. And I'm getting choked up as

> I write this because part of me really, truly loves this country and

> its fucked-up population (which of course includes me).

>

> And because I love this country and its citizens, I want to do right

> by them. *That* is what motivates my beliefs. Bjørn, this is my

> roundabout way of saying how much I appreciate your perspective, and

> Pete Watts' perspective, even though sometimes you both express

> yourselves with language that " pushes my buttons. " I think people

> outside the US can see us more clearly in some ways. I think people

> outside myself can see me more clearly than I can see myself.

>

> Bottom line: I am richer for seeing myself through the eyes of others.

>

> Can anyone tell I'm in a good mood because it's Friday? *I* certainly

> can!

>

> judith

>

[Guest guest]

> --- In 12-step-freeegroups, " Judith Stillwater "

>

> > Anyway, when my ideas are described as " anti-American, " I start to

> > wonder.

>

> Is that what they used to call " un-American? " ?

You got it. I'm an American, I have these beliefs, so are my beliefs

not by definition American and not anti- or un- American? Enquiring

minds want to know.

judith