Re: Downey Jr. and forced AA

[Guest guest]

Gang-

If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment and quitting drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it must be remembered that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but Mr. Downey. I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for some time, but if he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to quit, whatever that might require, he would not be in the position he now finds himself. Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment and meetings that were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from & Noble and the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more effective options to AA and the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or violate one's conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who fight the good fight against society's belief in the disease model and the 12-step approach but it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the relapser's throat or lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't like what the courts do to them when they drink and use should quit drinking and using.

Nate

[Guest guest]

> Gang-

>

> If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment and

quitting drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.>

The choice is between " treatment " and jail or prison, not quitting,

although invasive body searches are common in " treatment. "

> I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it must be

remembered that ultimately the problem is not the State of California

but Mr. Downey.>

What Problem? Yes, if I whack you over the head with a baseball bat

right now it *would* be your problem--for sure--but whose fault would

that be?

>The bottom line is this: People who don't like what the courts do

to them when they drink and use should quit drinking and using.>

Why? Because they may be killed, incarcerated, or otherwise destroyed

if they do not OBEY? Talk about blaming the victim....

Jim

[Guest guest]

Nate, I agree

with you that nobody forced Downey to drink/use… whatever. I don’t agree

either with the current laws relative to drug use/possession, and in some

instances, the sales. However, we have to live with what’s there. The severity

of the “punishment” in many cases seems ridiculous. I’ve seen “users” end up

with longer sentences than rapists. Part of that stems from our political

system, and our elected officials having learned to use “buzz” phrases when

attempting to win elections – “tough on crime,” “reduce taxes,” etc. Maybe I’m

overly negative here, since I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who

knows what. Possibly 4 years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever…

but in NY if you get more than one within 10 years it’s a Felony charge).

Without

sounding like I’m minimizing the possible effects of drug use, or drinking and

driving – they can have serious implications both for the person using, as well

as for innocent parties – I do think that the punishments often do not fit the

crime. This is often due to misconceptions regarding the “crimes.” Yes, drug

use supports dealers, and can lead to violent crime in order to support a

habit. Probably most “recreational” users are not particularly dangerous to

society, however. In the case of driving under the influence of alcohol, the

public believes that an impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater

menace that the statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing

someone are one in about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is

involved in 38% of all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say

involved, they mean a BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the same

studies find that speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty

close – YET… what happens to a “speeder” in court? Not very many get jail time,

even though their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to others as a

drunk drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What’s next… MASS? Mothers Against Sober Speeders? Throw them in jail!!!!

Enough….

Roy

-----Original

Message-----

From: Nate s

Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000

11:08 PM

To: 12-step-freeegroups

Subject: Re:

Downey Jr. and forced AA

Gang-

If I

were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment and quitting

drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

I

agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it must be remembered

that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but Mr.

Downey. I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for some

time, but if he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to

quit, whatever that might require, he would not be in the position he now finds

himself. Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment and

meetings that were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from &

Noble and the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more

effective options to AA and the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or

violate one's conditons of parole or probation. I applaud

those who fight the good fight against society's belief in the disease model

and the 12-step approach but it's not society or AA who pours the booze down

the relapser's throat or lights his pipe. The bottom line is this:

People who don't like what the courts do to them when they drink and use should

quit drinking and using.

Nate

[Guest guest]

As to drunk driving: I have read somewhere that when they say it's

involved in 38% (or however many %) of fatal car crashes, they are

counting anyone at all in either car, passengers, drivers, malfeasors,

victims. So that a possible scenario is two sober drivers, with one

passenger who had been drinking, and possibly many more passengers who

hadn't.

> Nate, I agree with you that nobody forced Downey to

drink/use…

> whatever. I don't agree either with the current laws relative to

drug

> use/possession, and in some instances, the sales. However, we have

to live

> with what's there. The severity of the " punishment " in many cases

seems

> ridiculous. I've seen " users " end up with longer sentences than

rapists.

> Part of that stems from our political system, and our elected

officials

> having learned to use " buzz " phrases when attempting to win

elections –

> " tough on crime, " " reduce taxes, " etc. Maybe I'm overly negative

here, since

> I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who knows what.

Possibly 4

> years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever… but in NY if

you get

> more than one within 10 years it's a Felony charge).

> Without sounding like I'm minimizing the possible effects of drug

use, or

> drinking and driving – they can have serious implications both for

the

> person using, as well as for innocent parties – I do think that the

> punishments often do not fit the crime. This is often due to

misconceptions

> regarding the " crimes. " Yes, drug use supports dealers, and can lead

to

> violent crime in order to support a habit. Probably most

" recreational "

> users are not particularly dangerous to society, however. In the

case of

> driving under the influence of alcohol, the public believes that an

> impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater menace that

the

> statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing someone are

one in

> about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is involved in

38% of

> all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say involved, they

mean a

> BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the same studies find

that

> speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty close –

YET… what

> happens to a " speeder " in court? Not very many get jail time, even

though

> their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to others as a

drunk

> drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What's next… MASS? Mothers Against Sober

Speeders?

> Throw them in jail!!!!

>

> Enough…. Roy

>

> Re: Downey Jr. and forced AA

>

> Gang-

>

> If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment and

quitting

> drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

>

> I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it must be

remembered

> that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but Mr.

Downey.

> I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for some time,

but if

> he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to quit,

whatever

> that might require, he would not be in the position he now finds

himself.

> Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment and meetings

that

> were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from &

Noble and

> the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more effective options to

AA and

> the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or violate one's

> conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who fight the

good fight

> against society's belief in the disease model and the 12-step

approach but

> it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the relapser's

throat or

> lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't like

what the

> courts do to them when they drink and use should quit drinking and

using.

>

> Nate

>

>

>

> eGroups Sponsor

> click here

>

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=150967.1016644.2717500.908943/D=egroupmail/S=17

000617

>

19:N/A=468535/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/N1198./B26105

;sz=46

> 8x60;ord=975644219?>

[Guest guest]

about 4 months ago i heard the statisctic that the majority of

children who die in car accidents where a alcohol had been a

factor with driver, it was thier own parent who was the drunk

driver.

> > Nate, I agree with you that nobody forced Downey to

> drink/use…

> > whatever. I don't agree either with the current laws relative to

> drug

> > use/possession, and in some instances, the sales.

However, we have

> to live

> > with what's there. The severity of the " punishment " in many

cases

> seems

> > ridiculous. I've seen " users " end up with longer sentences

than

> rapists.

> > Part of that stems from our political system, and our elected

> officials

> > having learned to use " buzz " phrases when attempting to win

> elections –

> > " tough on crime, " " reduce taxes, " etc. Maybe I'm overly

negative

> here, since

> > I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who knows

what.

> Possibly 4

> > years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever… but in

NY if

> you get

> > more than one within 10 years it's a Felony charge).

> > Without sounding like I'm minimizing the possible effects of

drug

> use, or

> > drinking and driving – they can have serious implications

both for

> the

> > person using, as well as for innocent parties – I do think that

the

> > punishments often do not fit the crime. This is often due to

> misconceptions

> > regarding the " crimes. " Yes, drug use supports dealers, and

can lead

> to

> > violent crime in order to support a habit. Probably most

> " recreational "

> > users are not particularly dangerous to society, however. In

the

> case of

> > driving under the influence of alcohol, the public believes that

an

> > impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater

menace that

> the

> > statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing

someone are

> one in

> > about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is

involved in

> 38% of

> > all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say involved, they

> mean a

> > BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the same

studies find

> that

> > speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty close

–

> YET… what

> > happens to a " speeder " in court? Not very many get jail time,

even

> though

> > their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to others

as a

> drunk

> > drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What's next… MASS? Mothers

Against Sober

> Speeders?

> > Throw them in jail!!!!

> >

> > Enough…. Roy

> >

> > Re: Downey Jr. and forced AA

> >

> > Gang-

> >

> > If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment

and

> quitting

> > drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

> >

> > I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it

must be

> remembered

> > that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but

Mr.

> Downey.

> > I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for

some time,

> but if

> > he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to

quit,

> whatever

> > that might require, he would not be in the position he now

finds

> himself.

> > Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment

and meetings

> that

> > were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from

&

> Noble and

> > the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more effective

options to

> AA and

> > the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or violate

one's

> > conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who fight

the

> good fight

> > against society's belief in the disease model and the 12-step

> approach but

> > it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the

relapser's

> throat or

> > lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't like

> what the

> > courts do to them when they drink and use should quit

drinking and

> using.

> >

> > Nate

> >

> >

> >

> > eGroups Sponsor

> > click here

> >

>

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=150967.1016644.2717500.908943/D=eg

roupmail/S=17

> 000617

> >

>

19:N/A=468535/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/N1198.egroups.c

om/B26105

> ;sz=46

> > 8x60;ord=975644219?>

[Guest guest]

Seems to me we need better statistics. I have heard the opposite.

> > > Nate, I agree with you that nobody forced Downey to

> > drink/use…

> > > whatever. I don't agree either with the current laws relative to

> > drug

> > > use/possession, and in some instances, the sales.

> However, we have

> > to live

> > > with what's there. The severity of the " punishment " in many

> cases

> > seems

> > > ridiculous. I've seen " users " end up with longer sentences

> than

> > rapists.

> > > Part of that stems from our political system, and our elected

> > officials

> > > having learned to use " buzz " phrases when attempting to win

> > elections –

> > > " tough on crime, " " reduce taxes, " etc. Maybe I'm overly

> negative

> > here, since

> > > I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who knows

> what.

> > Possibly 4

> > > years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever… but in

> NY if

> > you get

> > > more than one within 10 years it's a Felony charge).

> > > Without sounding like I'm minimizing the possible effects of

> drug

> > use, or

> > > drinking and driving – they can have serious implications

> both for

> > the

> > > person using, as well as for innocent parties – I do think that

> the

> > > punishments often do not fit the crime. This is often due to

> > misconceptions

> > > regarding the " crimes. " Yes, drug use supports dealers, and

> can lead

> > to

> > > violent crime in order to support a habit. Probably most

> > " recreational "

> > > users are not particularly dangerous to society, however. In

> the

> > case of

> > > driving under the influence of alcohol, the public believes that

> an

> > > impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater

> menace that

> > the

> > > statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing

> someone are

> > one in

> > > about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is

> involved in

> > 38% of

> > > all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say involved,

they

> > mean a

> > > BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the same

> studies find

> > that

> > > speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty close

> –

> > YET… what

> > > happens to a " speeder " in court? Not very many get jail time,

> even

> > though

> > > their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to others

> as a

> > drunk

> > > drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What's next… MASS? Mothers

> Against Sober

> > Speeders?

> > > Throw them in jail!!!!

> > >

> > > Enough…. Roy

> > >

> > > Re: Downey Jr. and forced AA

> > >

> > > Gang-

> > >

> > > If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment

> and

> > quitting

> > > drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

> > >

> > > I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it

> must be

> > remembered

> > > that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but

> Mr.

> > Downey.

> > > I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for

> some time,

> > but if

> > > he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to

> quit,

> > whatever

> > > that might require, he would not be in the position he now

> finds

> > himself.

> > > Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment

> and meetings

> > that

> > > were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from

> &

> > Noble and

> > > the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more effective

> options to

> > AA and

> > > the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or violate

> one's

> > > conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who fight

> the

> > good fight

> > > against society's belief in the disease model and the 12-step

> > approach but

> > > it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the

> relapser's

> > throat or

> > > lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't

like

> > what the

> > > courts do to them when they drink and use should quit

> drinking and

> > using.

> > >

> > > Nate

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > eGroups Sponsor

> > > click here

> > >

> >

> <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=150967.1016644.2717500.908943/D=eg

> roupmail/S=17

> > 000617

> > >

> >

> 19:N/A=468535/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/N1198.egroups.c

> om/B26105

> > ;sz=46

> > > 8x60;ord=975644219?>

[Guest guest]

i think it was churchill who said " there are 3 kinds of lies:

lies, damable lies and satistics "

> > > > Nate, I agree with you that nobody forced Downey

to

> > > drink/use…

> > > > whatever. I don't agree either with the current laws relative

to

> > > drug

> > > > use/possession, and in some instances, the sales.

> > However, we have

> > > to live

> > > > with what's there. The severity of the " punishment " in

many

> > cases

> > > seems

> > > > ridiculous. I've seen " users " end up with longer

sentences

> > than

> > > rapists.

> > > > Part of that stems from our political system, and our

elected

> > > officials

> > > > having learned to use " buzz " phrases when attempting to

win

> > > elections –

> > > > " tough on crime, " " reduce taxes, " etc. Maybe I'm overly

> > negative

> > > here, since

> > > > I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who

knows

> > what.

> > > Possibly 4

> > > > years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever…

but in

> > NY if

> > > you get

> > > > more than one within 10 years it's a Felony charge).

> > > > Without sounding like I'm minimizing the possible effects

of

> > drug

> > > use, or

> > > > drinking and driving – they can have serious implications

> > both for

> > > the

> > > > person using, as well as for innocent parties – I do think

that

> > the

> > > > punishments often do not fit the crime. This is often due

to

> > > misconceptions

> > > > regarding the " crimes. " Yes, drug use supports dealers,

and

> > can lead

> > > to

> > > > violent crime in order to support a habit. Probably most

> > > " recreational "

> > > > users are not particularly dangerous to society, however.

In

> > the

> > > case of

> > > > driving under the influence of alcohol, the public believes

that

> > an

> > > > impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater

> > menace that

> > > the

> > > > statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing

> > someone are

> > > one in

> > > > about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is

> > involved in

> > > 38% of

> > > > all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say involved,

> they

> > > mean a

> > > > BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the

same

> > studies find

> > > that

> > > > speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty

close

> > –

> > > YET… what

> > > > happens to a " speeder " in court? Not very many get jail

time,

> > even

> > > though

> > > > their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to

others

> > as a

> > > drunk

> > > > drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What's next… MASS? Mothers

> > Against Sober

> > > Speeders?

> > > > Throw them in jail!!!!

> > > >

> > > > Enough…. Roy

> > > >

> > > > Re: Downey Jr. and forced

AA

> > > >

> > > > Gang-

> > > >

> > > > If I were forced to choose between court-ordered

treatment

> > and

> > > quitting

> > > > drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it

> > must be

> > > remembered

> > > > that ultimately the problem is not the State of California

but

> > Mr.

> > > Downey.

> > > > I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for

> > some time,

> > > but if

> > > > he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him

to

> > quit,

> > > whatever

> > > > that might require, he would not be in the position he now

> > finds

> > > himself.

> > > > Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend

treatment

> > and meetings

> > > that

> > > > were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from

> > &

> > > Noble and

> > > > the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more

effective

> > options to

> > > AA and

> > > > the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or

violate

> > one's

> > > > conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who

fight

> > the

> > > good fight

> > > > against society's belief in the disease model and the

12-step

> > > approach but

> > > > it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the

> > relapser's

> > > throat or

> > > > lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't

> like

> > > what the

> > > > courts do to them when they drink and use should quit

> > drinking and

> > > using.

> > > >

> > > > Nate

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > eGroups Sponsor

> > > > click here

> > > >

> > >

> >

<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=150967.1016644.2717500.908943/D=eg

> > roupmail/S=17

> > > 000617

> > > >

> > >

> >

19:N/A=468535/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/N1198.egroups.c

> > om/B26105

> > > ;sz=46

> > > > 8x60;ord=975644219?>

[Guest guest]

At 08:25 PM 12/1/00 +0000, you wrote:

>As to drunk driving: I have read somewhere that when they say it's

>involved in 38% (or however many %) of fatal car crashes, they are

>counting anyone at all in either car, passengers, drivers, malfeasors,

>victims. So that a possible scenario is two sober drivers, with one

>passenger who had been drinking, and possibly many more passengers who

>hadn't.

That's why they always say an accident is " alcohol-related " instead

of using a phrase that actually means something.

[Guest guest]

> i think it was churchill who said " there are 3 kinds of lies:

> lies, damable lies and satistics "

Actually it was Disraeli who quoted Twain.

To which I reply :

There are facile ideas, outrageously irresponsibly facile ideas, and

that one.

P.

[Guest guest]

unsubscribe

RE: Downey Jr. and forced AA

Nate, I agree with you that nobody forced Downey to drink/use… whatever. I don’t agree either with the current laws relative to drug use/possession, and in some instances, the sales. However, we have to live with what’s there. The severity of the “punishment” in many cases seems ridiculous. I’ve seen “users” end up with longer sentences than rapists. Part of that stems from our political system, and our elected officials having learned to use “buzz” phrases when attempting to win elections – “tough on crime,” “reduce taxes,” etc. Maybe I’m overly negative here, since I got a DUI about 2 months ago, and am facing… who knows what. Possibly 4 years in State Prison (no accident, injuries, whatever… but in NY if you get more than one within 10 years it’s a Felony charge).

Without sounding like I’m minimizing the possible effects of drug use, or drinking and driving – they can have serious implications both for the person using, as well as for innocent parties – I do think that the punishments often do not fit the crime. This is often due to misconceptions regarding the “crimes.” Yes, drug use supports dealers, and can lead to violent crime in order to support a habit. Probably most “recreational” users are not particularly dangerous to society, however. In the case of driving under the influence of alcohol, the public believes that an impaired, or even intoxicated driver is a much greater menace that the statistics point out. The odds of a drunk driver killing someone are one in about 90,000. The government estimates that alcohol is involved in 38% of all fatal car accidents. First of all, when they say involved, they mean a BAC of .01 and up… hmmmm. As a comparison, the same studies find that speeding is involved in 30% of all fatal accidents. Pretty close – YET… what happens to a “speeder” in court? Not very many get jail time, even though their actions on the road are nearly as dangerous to others as a drunk drivers are. Hmmmmmm. What’s next… MASS? Mothers Against Sober Speeders? Throw them in jail!!!!

Enough…. Roy

-----Original Message-----From: Nate s Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2000 11:08 PMTo: 12-step-freeegroupsSubject: Re: Downey Jr. and forced AA

Gang-

If I were forced to choose between court-ordered treatment and quitting drinking/using, I'd quit drinking and using.

I agree with the argument against court-ordered AA but it must be remembered that ultimately the problem is not the State of California but Mr. Downey. I understand that he has been mandated by the courts for some time, but if he'd taken the initiative to do what was necessary for him to quit, whatever that might require, he would not be in the position he now finds himself. Mr. Downey may have been compelled to attend treatment and meetings that were faulty at best, but was he ordered to stay away from & Noble and the WWW too? Friends, ignorance of other, more effective options to AA and the treatment industry is not an excuse to to drink or violate one's conditons of parole or probation. I applaud those who fight the good fight against society's belief in the disease model and the 12-step approach but it's not society or AA who pours the booze down the relapser's throat or lights his pipe. The bottom line is this: People who don't like what the courts do to them when they drink and use should quit drinking and using.

Nate