Armpit circulation pain ... aches, numbness & vent :-(

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/15/2003 7:52:01 PM Eastern Standard Time,

mike@... writes:

If you feel like this is what you have and want to know more details

on treatment protocols, let me know

Thanks, this sounds like me. Most of the time I do not ache. When is do It is

bad and for some reason starts with over use of my arm. When I worked four

years ago at a PC I had keep my arm straight. I thought I had the tunnel carpal

problem. Caro.

[Guest guest]

Dear Caro,

I have TOS due to an extremely loose shoulder blade and socket and some bad

vertebrea in the neck. I have it to some degree constantly - even putting on

deoderant hurts a bit.

My pain problem with it was when it flared up bad and my right arm would go

numb and tingly with that low ache like when something is waking up after

falling alseep (like a foot). Met a wonderful therapy guy who helped me with it

by tracking down when it most frequently happened, which was while I was sitting

in my chaise lounge watching TV. He said the shoulder slips down and puts

pressure on that nerve bundle hence cutting off circulation (TOS). His answer

was a simple one that has helped extremely - whenever sitting prop a pillow

under the arm and keep the shoulder up. I know there are a few others on the

list that this has helped as well - hopefully it will help you too.

Hugs,

B.

HEDS, New Jersey, USA

[Guest guest]

Re: Armpit circulation pain ... aches, numbness & vent :-(

There are other possibilities, but TOS would be the first thing I

would check if someone came to me presenting the same conditions.

Like I said, the tests are very quick and easy to do. If you want,

just say the word and I will post them to you.

~~~~~~~~

Mike - would you please post the tests? Thanks

Bonnie

[Guest guest]

Ok, I looked up TOS on the web, and the page also had other things, like RSD

(which 's dr thinks she may have).

I am wondering if this is a problem I'm having. If I lay with my arms up, like

with my hands behind my head while lying on my back, I get terrible pain,

sometimes to the point of not being able to move my arms. I thought it was a

pinched nerve. The pain in my shoulders is sometimes so severe, I can't do

things like wash my armpit, put on deoderant, etc.

It feels like something is sort of " caught " in my shoulders, and things aren't

moving right inside. The pain is also in my armpits.

It's very hard to explain, but this description (on the web) sounds very much

like it.

I don't want to DX myself, but I'm wondering.....

I've never talked with my dr about it. Another one of those things that comes

and goes, and, well, the whole hypochondriac thing.........

I never had an injury to my shoulders, except for the very small tear in one,

which the ortho dr said was too small to worry about. Easy for him to say - he

doesn't have to live with the pain of it. (He was one of my drs who told me

" see a psychiatrist, Dear " !)

Mon

Re: Armpit circulation pain ... aches, numbness & vent :-(

> Thanks, this sounds like me.

Caro.

There are other possibilities, but TOS would be the first thing I

would check if someone came to me presenting the same conditions.

Like I said, the tests are very quick and easy to do. If you want,

just say the word and I will post them to you.

[Guest guest]

Mike, I haven't forgotten about you. Things have just been so crazy.

I would like to come see you, with . I just do not want to put her

through those needle injections. She's scared to death of that.

It's just too invasive to start with.

I'm gonna call you today, when I have a free minute. OK?

Mon

Re: Armpit circulation pain ... aches, numbness & vent :-(

> Thanks, this sounds like me.

Caro.

There are other possibilities, but TOS would be the first thing I

would check if someone came to me presenting the same conditions.

Like I said, the tests are very quick and easy to do. If you want,

just say the word and I will post them to you.

[Guest guest]

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: " mikeuggen " <mike@u...>

> To: <ceda >

> Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2003 1:12 AM

If you want, just say the word and I will post them to you.

>

> ~~~~~~~~

>

> Mike - would you please post the tests? Thanks

Bonnie

OK - here they are. In all cases, the tests are conducted/monitored

on the affected side. For a " just because " I am also adding a test

for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome at the bottom. The next step, if anyone

wants it, is to give a run-down on some specific treatment

protocols. If anybody wants it, let me know.

Adson's Test for Anterior Scalene Syndrome

The client is seated for comfort and stability. Monitor the radial

pulse at the wrist. Then ask the client to rotate and extend the

head as far as is comfortable to same side as the therapist is

monitoring. Instruct client to take a deep breath in and hold it

for about 30 seconds. (Note - rotate and extend means turn your

head as far as you can to the side and then up and back like you are

trying to look over your shoulder).

Travell's Variation on Adson's Test

Proceed as for Adson's. When monitoring the radial pulse on the

symptomatic side, have the client turn head away from (not towards)

this side. A positive test indicates greater involvement of

scalenes medius.

(In other words, assume the problem is on the right side. For

Adson's, they would turn and look to the right. For Travell's, they

would turn and look to the left.)

's Hyperabduction Test for Pectoralis Minor Syndrome

The client is seated for comfort and stability. Continue to monitor

the radial pulse. Be careful to get a firm hold on the wrist but

still be able to feel the pulse. The therapist places the free hand

lightly on the shoulder to prevent client from elevating it to

relieve tractioning. Instruct the client not to help with the

movements as the therapist takes the arm slowly into full

abduction. It should be held in this position for up to one

minute. (Note - full abduction means to raise the arm up from the

side to a full vertical position over the head).

Costoclavicular Syndrome Test

In either a seated or standing position, ask the client to assume a

so-called military posture: scapulae retracted and depressed, the

chest pushed out. Now ask the client to take a deep breath and hold

it for about 30 seconds. Monitor the radial pulse on one side

first, then repeat the procedure for the other side.

Again, the purpose in monitoring the pulse is to test for

compressions that pinch the radial artery closed. If the pulse

stays strong, no compression is taking place. If the pulse fades or

goes away, compression is occuring and the individual tests tell you

which muscle is causing the compression.

A couple of side notes. Travell is Dr. Janet Travell of Travell and

Simons Trigger Point work fame, basically the bible covering trigger

points. She also just happened to be F. Kennedy's doctor when

JFK was president.

Like I said in the post yesterday, there are other possible causes

of TOS, but the main ones tend to be one of the above. And these can

be treated with a variety of massage/bodywork techniques. Keep in

mind that a lot of doctors do not think in terms of soft tissue

manipulation for treatment. They think of anti-inflammatories and

pain killers, surgery, etc. Quite frankly, a lot of them don't

even know what can be done with bodywork.

One other test while we are at it: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. There

are a couple of quick tests for it but I am only going to give the

one because the other one isn't as reliable a guide. Basically, put

the backs of your hands together so your forearms are parallel with

the floor and your hands/wrists are bent at a 90 degree angle with

your fingers pointing toward the floor. Then hold it. If you have

Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the pain will become excruciating within 10-

20 seconds. If you can hold the position pain-free for 30-60

seconds, you do NOT have Carpal Tunnel.

I have done this test myself on at least four people in the last

couple of years - all four having been told by their doctor that

they had CTS and with two of them scheduled for surgery within the

following two weeks. None of them tested positive for CTS. All

four, however, did test positive for one of the TOS variations.

Neither of the two followed thru with the surgery. I treated three

of them myself and one of my instructors treated the fourth.

[Guest guest]

> Mike, I haven't forgotten about you. Things have just been so

crazy.

> I would like to come see you, with . I just do not want to

put her through those needle injections. She's scared to death of

that.

> It's just too invasive to start with.

>

> I'm gonna call you today, when I have a free minute. OK?

> Mon

>

I have been following your posts. You have been so tied up with

everything that's been going on, you have barely had time to breath

or turn around.

The main reason I suggested the two of you coming over here the

first time was simply that I have a ton of reference books (my

reference library would put most clinics to shame as it is now

somewhere around 225-230 volumes) plus I have quite a few

posters/charts for anatomy and types of treatment hanging on my spa

room wall. It would just be easier to explain a few things if

necessary with these ready at hand.

It is not, however, critical. With your schedule being the way it

has been, I would be more than happy to bring my table/etc over to

your place if it would be more convenient for you.

The only things I have on my schedule for the next couple of weeks

are tickets to the Setzer concert tonight (leaving here about

4:00 to meet Barb and Kerry after work) and tickets Saturday

afternoon to see Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. Other than

that, there is nothing on my agenda at the moment that can't be

rearranged or done at any time I feel like.

[Guest guest]

,

Try checking with your Ortho, it could be troulble with you rotator cuffs in

your shoulders, could also be related to your neck. MRI's of your shoulders plus

NCS/EMG's should be able to pinpoint the problem. Hope this helps.But I am only

a Nurse.

Sincerely, S.

Re: Armpit circulation pain ... aches, numbness & vent :-(

> Thanks, this sounds like me.

Caro.

There are other possibilities, but TOS would be the first thing I

would check if someone came to me presenting the same conditions.

Like I said, the tests are very quick and easy to do. If you want,

just say the word and I will post them to you.

[Guest guest]

On the 's Hyperabduction Test for Pectoralis Minor Syndrome

test my radial pulse on the right is lost before my arm is taken up

90 degree's or so (it is lost at about 45-60 degree's and stays GONE

all the rest of the way up)and I mean I can't find it...

On the left it lessens a bit but NOTHING like on the right.

I guess this is why when I wake up with my arm above my head in the

middle of the night , why I can't move my arm and why my arm and hand

etc HURT so much, and why I have to work to get the pins and needles

and FAT feeling out of my hand etc once I do bring it back down (with

my other arm).

Is there anythign I can do to work on this MYSELF???

I do see my Osteopath and he is helping but as I have so MUCH going

on there is only so much he can do in our hour together each week and

we mainly only work on the worst for that day/week, and never really

get a chance to work on other things.

Sharon (Shazinoz)

>

>

> OK - here they are. In all cases, the tests are

conducted/monitored

> on the affected side. For a " just because " I am also adding a test

> for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome at the bottom. The next step, if anyone

> wants it, is to give a run-down on some specific treatment

> protocols. If anybody wants it, let me know.

>

> Adson's Test for Anterior Scalene Syndrome

> The client is seated for comfort and stability. Monitor the radial

> pulse at the wrist. Then ask the client to rotate and extend the

> head as far as is comfortable to same side as the therapist is

> monitoring. Instruct client to take a deep breath in and hold it

> for about 30 seconds. (Note - rotate and extend means turn your

> head as far as you can to the side and then up and back like you

are

> trying to look over your shoulder).

>

> Travell's Variation on Adson's Test

> Proceed as for Adson's. When monitoring the radial pulse on the

> symptomatic side, have the client turn head away from (not towards)

> this side. A positive test indicates greater involvement of

> scalenes medius.

>

> (In other words, assume the problem is on the right side. For

> Adson's, they would turn and look to the right. For Travell's,

they

> would turn and look to the left.)

>

> 's Hyperabduction Test for Pectoralis Minor Syndrome

> The client is seated for comfort and stability. Continue to

monitor

> the radial pulse. Be careful to get a firm hold on the wrist but

> still be able to feel the pulse. The therapist places the free

hand

> lightly on the shoulder to prevent client from elevating it to

> relieve tractioning. Instruct the client not to help with the

> movements as the therapist takes the arm slowly into full

> abduction. It should be held in this position for up to one

> minute. (Note - full abduction means to raise the arm up from the

> side to a full vertical position over the head).

>

> Costoclavicular Syndrome Test

> In either a seated or standing position, ask the client to assume a

> so-called military posture: scapulae retracted and depressed, the

> chest pushed out. Now ask the client to take a deep breath and

hold

> it for about 30 seconds. Monitor the radial pulse on one side

> first, then repeat the procedure for the other side.

>

> Again, the purpose in monitoring the pulse is to test for

> compressions that pinch the radial artery closed. If the pulse

> stays strong, no compression is taking place. If the pulse fades

or

> goes away, compression is occuring and the individual tests tell

you

> which muscle is causing the compression.

>

> A couple of side notes. Travell is Dr. Janet Travell of Travell

and

> Simons Trigger Point work fame, basically the bible covering

trigger

> points. She also just happened to be F. Kennedy's doctor when

> JFK was president.

>

> Like I said in the post yesterday, there are other possible causes

> of TOS, but the main ones tend to be one of the above. And these

can

> be treated with a variety of massage/bodywork techniques. Keep in

> mind that a lot of doctors do not think in terms of soft tissue

> manipulation for treatment. They think of anti-inflammatories and

> pain killers, surgery, etc. Quite frankly, a lot of them don't

> even know what can be done with bodywork.

>

> One other test while we are at it: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome. There

> are a couple of quick tests for it but I am only going to give the

> one because the other one isn't as reliable a guide. Basically,

put

> the backs of your hands together so your forearms are parallel with

> the floor and your hands/wrists are bent at a 90 degree angle with

> your fingers pointing toward the floor. Then hold it. If you have

> Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the pain will become excruciating within 10-

> 20 seconds. If you can hold the position pain-free for 30-60

> seconds, you do NOT have Carpal Tunnel.

>

> I have done this test myself on at least four people in the last

> couple of years - all four having been told by their doctor that

> they had CTS and with two of them scheduled for surgery within the

> following two weeks. None of them tested positive for CTS. All

> four, however, did test positive for one of the TOS variations.

> Neither of the two followed thru with the surgery. I treated three

> of them myself and one of my instructors treated the fourth.

[Guest guest]

I have to leave to go pick up my car at the shop and then we are all

going from there to a concert tonight so I won't be able to answer

this one until I get back. But be assured that when I do, I will.

It sounds like a couple of other things might be involved and I want

to address them in detail and without rushing my reply. Hopefully

will have something back to you later this evening.

> On the 's Hyperabduction Test for Pectoralis Minor Syndrome

> test my radial pulse on the right is lost before my arm is taken

up

> 90 degree's or so (it is lost at about 45-60 degree's and stays

GONE

> all the rest of the way up)and I mean I can't find it...

> On the left it lessens a bit but NOTHING like on the right.

> I guess this is why when I wake up with my arm above my head in

the

> middle of the night , why I can't move my arm and why my arm and

hand

> etc HURT so much, and why I have to work to get the pins and

needles

> and FAT feeling out of my hand etc once I do bring it back down

(with

> my other arm).

> Is there anythign I can do to work on this MYSELF???

> I do see my Osteopath and he is helping but as I have so MUCH

going

> on there is only so much he can do in our hour together each week

and

> we mainly only work on the worst for that day/week, and never

really

> get a chance to work on other things.

> Sharon (Shazinoz)

>

>

> >

> >

> > OK - here they are. In all cases, the tests are

> conducted/monitored

> > on the affected side. For a " just because " I am also adding a

test

> > for Carpal Tunnel Syndrome at the bottom. The next step, if

anyone

> > wants it, is to give a run-down on some specific treatment

> > protocols. If anybody wants it, let me know.

> >

> > Adson's Test for Anterior Scalene Syndrome

> > The client is seated for comfort and stability. Monitor the

radial

> > pulse at the wrist. Then ask the client to rotate and extend

the

> > head as far as is comfortable to same side as the therapist is

> > monitoring. Instruct client to take a deep breath in and hold

it

> > for about 30 seconds. (Note - rotate and extend means turn your

> > head as far as you can to the side and then up and back like you

> are

> > trying to look over your shoulder).

> >

> > Travell's Variation on Adson's Test

> > Proceed as for Adson's. When monitoring the radial pulse on the

> > symptomatic side, have the client turn head away from (not

towards)

> > this side. A positive test indicates greater involvement of

> > scalenes medius.

> >

> > (In other words, assume the problem is on the right side. For

> > Adson's, they would turn and look to the right. For Travell's,

> they

> > would turn and look to the left.)

> >

> > 's Hyperabduction Test for Pectoralis Minor Syndrome

> > The client is seated for comfort and stability. Continue to

> monitor

> > the radial pulse. Be careful to get a firm hold on the wrist

but

> > still be able to feel the pulse. The therapist places the free

> hand

> > lightly on the shoulder to prevent client from elevating it to

> > relieve tractioning. Instruct the client not to help with the

> > movements as the therapist takes the arm slowly into full

> > abduction. It should be held in this position for up to one

> > minute. (Note - full abduction means to raise the arm up from

the

> > side to a full vertical position over the head).

> >

> > Costoclavicular Syndrome Test

> > In either a seated or standing position, ask the client to

assume a

> > so-called military posture: scapulae retracted and depressed,

the

> > chest pushed out. Now ask the client to take a deep breath and

> hold

> > it for about 30 seconds. Monitor the radial pulse on one side

> > first, then repeat the procedure for the other side.

> >

> > Again, the purpose in monitoring the pulse is to test for

> > compressions that pinch the radial artery closed. If the pulse

> > stays strong, no compression is taking place. If the pulse

fades

> or

> > goes away, compression is occuring and the individual tests tell

> you

> > which muscle is causing the compression.

> >

> > A couple of side notes. Travell is Dr. Janet Travell of Travell

> and

> > Simons Trigger Point work fame, basically the bible covering

> trigger

> > points. She also just happened to be F. Kennedy's doctor

when

> > JFK was president.

> >

> > Like I said in the post yesterday, there are other possible

causes

> > of TOS, but the main ones tend to be one of the above. And these

> can

> > be treated with a variety of massage/bodywork techniques. Keep

in

> > mind that a lot of doctors do not think in terms of soft tissue

> > manipulation for treatment. They think of anti-inflammatories

and

> > pain killers, surgery, etc. Quite frankly, a lot of them don't

> > even know what can be done with bodywork.

> >

> > One other test while we are at it: Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

There

> > are a couple of quick tests for it but I am only going to give

the

> > one because the other one isn't as reliable a guide. Basically,

> put

> > the backs of your hands together so your forearms are parallel

with

> > the floor and your hands/wrists are bent at a 90 degree angle

with

> > your fingers pointing toward the floor. Then hold it. If you

have

> > Carpal Tunnel Syndrome, the pain will become excruciating within

10-

> > 20 seconds. If you can hold the position pain-free for 30-60

> > seconds, you do NOT have Carpal Tunnel.

> >

> > I have done this test myself on at least four people in the last

> > couple of years - all four having been told by their doctor that

> > they had CTS and with two of them scheduled for surgery within

the

> > following two weeks. None of them tested positive for CTS. All

> > four, however, did test positive for one of the TOS variations.

> > Neither of the two followed thru with the surgery. I treated

three

> > of them myself and one of my instructors treated the fourth.