Guest guest Posted November 5, 2000 Report Share Posted November 5, 2000 I was shamed by old-country parents, who were cold, distant, disapproving of any overt behavioral or oral displays that exceeded their low tolerance for typical little kid behavior. Shame and whippings were their weapons. I had learned how to shame myself when I sometimes did poorly in school, so every classroom was accompanied by dread, fear and loathing. I was so ashamed of myself, I wouldn't try out for sports, or Boy Scouts, or any of the other " kid " activities that are taken for granted today. My few friends were like me....under - achievers, distant, strange, we would all abandon each other for no reason at all.....no group cohesiveness. I just wasn't good enough...there was something drastically wrong with me, I really was " different, " the weird kid who couldn't keep his mouth shut. Somewhere in that part of my life, I hit the " mother lode " of shame, and almost everything I did reinforced that low opinion of myself....shame feeding on and propagating itself. Then I became a drunk, and for years was the most popular man on earth (in my own mind) every time I got a snoot full. Then, I ran and ran my mouth like it was attached to a V-8 and a five-speed, and drove EVERYONE away, including the disaffected ones. Then I got to treatment, then AA, where I was stripped of whatever personality I had developed, good and bad, and the shame that had been there all along flourished again. I went to meetings for three yars before I could even say my name. I lurked in the background at meetings, talked to very few people - the least threatening ones. Then more shame because I didn't understand the steps and the God concepts. I didn't want to get up and talk about myself for an hour...more shame, ashamed for my terrible fear of public speaking, shame because I wasn't fitting in, even in AA...the largest collection of misfits ever assembled outside of a state penetentiary or a madhouse...I couldn't even fit in there. I could go on and on ... I have almost 19 years sober, despite all the above. I will finish an undergraduate degree next year...I have a good job and a new home. No wife or girlfriend right now...lots of troubles in that arena....still the shame stuff....I pick neurotic, hysterically high strung drama queens and chronic fuck-ups.... just like me. Somewhere over the years, I realized that I didn't care a rat's ass about what ANYBODY thought of me anymore... that was a big step. Shame is a sort of terribly innaccurate and distorted appraisal of self reflected from others, that has no basis in their realities, fed by our own crazy value system that we've placed upon ourselves - all of which was fostered by insensitive, unavailable, inappropriate terrorist parenting. When I do it for ME, I'm OK. When I do it for someone else, I'm in trouble. > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: Shame >Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 04:29:27 +1100 > >I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA >was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up >in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I >think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then >employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal >with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way >into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who > " lovingly " (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. >I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. " Get >Honest!! " I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I >heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying >to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to >transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of " love " >and " care " . I know that I copped a lot of it. > >The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I >dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel >anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I >wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, >like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try >this stuff. > >Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, >and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, >I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of >damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been >centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much >about in the rewms............I wonder why? >Barnsey _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2000 Report Share Posted November 5, 2000 At 04:29 AM 11/5/00 +1100, you wrote: >I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA >was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up >in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I >think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then >employers, and partners. I hear ya. I too grew up in a family which enjoyed humiliating and mocking me. It was practically the family sport. Perhaps this is a common background among people who eventually develop addiction problems? > And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a > lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into > AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! I think this is very important. Like any brainwashing group, AA needs to break the will of new members. And it does this by applying the same tactics which made us at least partially broken in the past. We've had somewhat different AA experiences. The folks I've been stuck with have used shame to some degree, but have also been heavily into the " it was my/your disease " excuse. The shaming I've experienced has been more in the form of condescension, mockery, and other infantilizing than in the form of wanting me to feel ashamed of my behavior. Or, to be more detailed . . . I was shamed for my behavior as long as I continued to assert that I did in fact control my behavior. Others who accepted the disease malarkey, and eventually me, were warmly forgiven for any drunken escapade you can imagine. I was once hotboxed in this very way, as I struggled valiantly to accept responsibility for my own two DWI convictions. The entire room turned on me, interrupting me and yelling, as other people with DWI convictions " explained " that it had been their disease rather than themselves who did that. I suppose what I was saying felt threatening to them. If I were responsible for my own behavior, then just maybe they were responsible for theirs as well . . . . >So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame >onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of " love " and " care " . I know >that I copped a lot of it. It is better to be the abuser than the abused. Many, many abused people " pass it on " as soon as they get the chance. > >The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I >dont allow other people to shame me anymore. Good for you. I've only just started to break free of this myself. Got any tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2000 Report Share Posted November 7, 2000 Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2000 Report Share Posted November 8, 2000 Thanks Bjørn, I like your view. I'd like to have a deeper look at it. I can really see where shame, fear and denial do so much harm to our world. I'd like to understand how you fit those things together. Also, what falls into organized denial bseides AA? I hope you answer those, as well as you can from your veiwpoint. From my viewpoint, church and state are the biggest causes for denial in our minds - its easier to try to deny truth than to deal with something that overwhelms us. Like this country I live in, everyone seems to be in denial that the government designed for the people continuously fails the people. There has been a romance in America between its people and its government since 1789, because people have been able to deny that what is on paper that sounds so lovely is not the same as what is really happening. The same denial occured in Soviet Russia, the idea that there system was working, though their comrades starved. The same denial existed in Nazi Germany, the people believed what they were doing was right, they denied that their actions and beliefs were wrong. They denied that they were being used. They denied that they were being lied to. They denied that they were going to be crushed. I think as long as a government has an overwhelming amount of power over its subjects, the subjects will deny that power in their own minds, so that they feel better, and so that they won't feel shame for their submission. People with religion deny truth, too, so they do not feel the shame that is due a man who does not accept facts and does submit to another man's will. I am sorry I didn't US AA to illustrate this, but at the moment, the idea of being governed is heavy on my mind. Re: Shame Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2000 Report Share Posted November 8, 2000 Hi Cool. I've been giving this question a lot of thought through the last years, and I'm still working with it. My main interest is of course human behavior at large, but I've supported my thinking by some assumptions that can be confirmed by studying higher herd mammals like wolves or apes. For example, ordinary cats are not herd animals, and therefore many likes them because they seems so independent. Dogs, on the other hand, are often despised because they can be subjected easily. Their signals of shame are very much alike that of the humans. A cat can survive alone, but a pack of wolves depends on each other. The lonely wolf is a myth in arctic areas. Expulsion means death, and the signs of shame are a plea for acceptance. This goes for humans to. When we are ashamed we are in reality begging for understanding and acceptance because it means that you are not excluded. From the excluded position, which is the ultimate position before death (in humans often unconsciously), the shame can bring you back to the herd. The animals have their rituals for this acceptance process, the indians in the Brazilian rain forest have theirs. In the Western world we have "Treatment". The Alcoholism Movement aka 12 step programs. There is a 12 step program for every deviation from the wanted behavior. Like drinking, shopping, running, masturbation. Whatever. If a state implements this, it is fascism. Actually it's the original definition of fascism. Every deviate in the old Roman army were beaten with fasces, which is a bundle of rice (rice) straws , which symbolizes strength because they are many (straws). Fascism is limitation of individual freedom, and there is no direct connection between the formal regime and fascism. But of course a well developed democracy is to be preferred. The fascists are using animal principles, and they behave like animals. For example the Nazis. This could be some of the reasons why Stalin and Hitler - when you look at their disrespect of the individual in relation to the herd - developed similar behavior and methods. Then something about the church. I think that through evolution man had to explain this expulsion process in mental representations. They didn't understand it, but it was necessary to control the forces lying behind the processes because they threatened to tear the society apart with small groups fighting each other. Therefore God/religion was invented. If you didn't behave you would be expulsed to hell. Same pattern as in wolves. Hypocrisy is therefore directly linked with shame and death anxiety, and therefore these people will fight with all means, because they think they will die if they lose. Therefore AA is using a lot of unethical means to reach their goals, which always is more acceptance and influence. Problem is, they have tasted power too, and that's not healthy for them. It will eventually kill them if they don't reverse. But they can't reverse because there is only one way, and that's forward. If they try to go backwards they will probably implode. Well, it's about this way I'm thinking, and I've found my concepts very useful in a lot of cases where I wanted to understand something. Like groups :-). Best Bjørn P.S. And totally "Off Topic". My daughter is studying at Brunell in London, but she is living London SE. And the transport is both lousy and expensive in Danish standards. She's got her boyfriend with her, and they are looking for some place to live nearer to the university. I trust she can manage herself, but do you have any ideas about what is the smart thing to do? coolguy wrote: Thanks Bjørn, I like your view. I'd like to have a deeper look at it. I can really see where shame, fear and denial do so much harm to our world. I'd like to understand how you fit those things together. Also, what falls into organized denial bseides AA? I hope you answer those, as well as you can from your veiwpoint. From my viewpoint, church and state are the biggest causes for denial in our minds - its easier to try to deny truth than to deal with something that overwhelms us. Like this country I live in, everyone seems to be in denial that the government designed for the people continuously fails the people. There has been a romance in America between its people and its government since 1789, because people have been able to deny that what is on paper that sounds so lovely is not the same as what is really happening. The same denial occured in Soviet Russia, the idea that there system was working, though their comrades starved. The same denial existed in Nazi Germany, the people believed what they were doing was right, they denied that their actions and beliefs were wrong. They denied that they were being used. They denied that they were being lied to. They denied that they were going to be crushed. I think as long as a government has an overwhelming amount of power over its subjects, the subjects will deny that power in their own minds, so that they feel better, and so that they won't feel shame for their submission. People with religion deny truth, too, so they do not feel the shame that is due a man who does not accept facts and does submit to another man's will. I am sorry I didn't US AA to illustrate this, but at the moment, the idea of being governed is heavy on my mind. Re: Shame Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2000 Report Share Posted November 11, 2000 Hi Bjørn, I like the comparison of cats and dogs and if you are a cat lover, you should see the new film, "Meet the Parents." I definitely take the same view, that the 12steps shaming ritual is like the same shaming rituals used by less developed humans and herd animals, too. I suppose that humanity is at a point where it is evolving from a herd-animal society, to the opposite, a society of individuals. This dichotomy is creating a schism between the more and less evolved humans. There are those not wanting to change, those grasping onto the self-sacrifice concepts of the past - where such concepts were necessary to survive. There are those among them contributing to their shame and to their fear of change, by providing them with shame-rituals and accepting their self-abnegation. There are those who are diametrically opposed to being viewed as members of a herd, who live their lives as freely and independently as this 6 billion member herd will allow. Some within this group are interested in only themselves, and may even take advantage of those who are less evolved. But, those who are most self-assured and want the very best out of themselves and mankind wish to help those less evolved to see that self-abnegation is not the answer, that self-reliance is the answer, because we believe the world will be a better place once this step in evolution has completed, and the sooner the better. This step in evolution has just started, and it is impossible to predict the timeframe of this evolution, though things are progressing more quickly now. The less evolved group is constantly evolving its rituals to remedy its losses, from Gods of Egypt, to God of Israel, to Jesus, to now the 12steps (and millions more I have not mentioned - these are the same inventions you mentioned that make the shaming process tangible). As the more evolved group is becoming more skilled at enlightening less evolved individuals, the rituals that have been successful for that group in the past are now failing. In the future, I hope there is enlightenment so widespread that all of those shaming rituals will fail, there will be no place for them, that the people will know better. When I think about this actually happening, it is awesome. Like the Revelations in the Bible, it will be a major event. I believe for thousands of years the self-reliance of human beings has been swept under the carpet, that they have been taught to serve others, not themselves. There has always been the rebel, the man who craves freedom from others and worships himself, hiding, or being hidden by the powers that be, and the rebels are growing in number. At this point in evolution, the rebels are those who believe their lives are meant to be lived for themselves, and this idea is simmering within the world now. There are more people thinking this way now than ever, more people who no longer believe the lie of self-abnegation, and the number will continue to grow. As this simmering group of people grows, I believe that one day it will reach a boiling point... maybe the Book of Revelations is right in some ways. I don't like your friend Jante. He wouldn't like me. Re: Shame Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2000 Report Share Posted November 12, 2000 Hi Coolguy. I appreciate your comments and thoughts, but I think my recognition, false or not, runs deeper than your comments. I don't think I can give a comprehensive exposition of my views, but I'll try to give some dispersed thoughts and observations. First of all, the word 'herd' might not be able to evoke the right associations. There are a lot of negative connotations connected to the 'herd', but I think of the herd as a fundamental conditions for humans. There is no way to escape being a member of a herd, physically or mentally. For example. This list is a mentally connected 'herd', and it's quite possible to be expulsed from it. I've been active in this process from time to time, and I don't regret it at all. I don't think persons who's only perspective is destructive belongs here. It would ruin the freedom of speech, and would restrict the creativity. Therefore they are unwanted and deserves to be thrown out - expulsed. Every Utopia I know about, from Paradise to fulfilled Communism have this idea of ending the expulsion process. But of course they all have to get rid of the 'bad ones' first. And frankly, I think Utopian thinking is dangerous! History shows that. Individualism as a concept can only give meaning with the 'herd' as background. There is a dialectical relationship between the individual and the herd. The human herd could not expand or get wiser without individuals, and the individuals would not be individuals if the didn't refer to the herd. This relation needs regulation, and religion (ideologies) has done this for thousands of years. Can we manage without, that's my doubt. I wish I could share your optimism. Best Bjørn coolguy wrote: Hi Bjørn, I like the comparison of cats and dogs and if you are a cat lover, you should see the new film, "Meet the Parents." I definitely take the same view, that the 12steps shaming ritual is like the same shaming rituals used by less developed humans and herd animals, too. I suppose that humanity is at a point where it is evolving from a herd-animal society, to the opposite, a society of individuals. This dichotomy is creating a schism between the more and less evolved humans. There are those not wanting to change, those grasping onto the self-sacrifice concepts of the past - where such concepts were necessary to survive. There are those among them contributing to their shame and to their fear of change, by providing them with shame-rituals and accepting their self-abnegation. There are those who are diametrically opposed to being viewed as members of a herd, who live their lives as freely and independently as this 6 billion member herd will allow. Some within this group are interested in only themselves, and may even take advantage of those who are less evolved. But, those who are most self-assured and want the very best out of themselves and mankind wish to help those less evolved to see that self-abnegation is not the answer, that self-reliance is the answer, because we believe the world will be a better place once this step in evolution has completed, and the sooner the better. This step in evolution has just started, and it is impossible to predict the timeframe of this evolution, though things are progressing more quickly now. The less evolved group is constantly evolving its rituals to remedy its losses, from Gods of Egypt, to God of Israel, to Jesus, to now the 12steps (and millions more I have not mentioned - these are the same inventions you mentioned that make the shaming process tangible). As the more evolved group is becoming more skilled at enlightening less evolved individuals, the rituals that have been successful for that group in the past are now failing. In the future, I hope there is enlightenment so widespread that all of those shaming rituals will fail, there will be no place for them, that the people will know better. When I think about this actually happening, it is awesome. Like the Revelations in the Bible, it will be a major event. I believe for thousands of years the self-reliance of human beings has been swept under the carpet, that they have been taught to serve others, not themselves. There has always been the rebel, the man who craves freedom from others and worships himself, hiding, or being hidden by the powers that be, and the rebels are growing in number. At this point in evolution, the rebels are those who believe their lives are meant to be lived for themselves, and this idea is simmering within the world now. There are more people thinking this way now than ever, more people who no longer believe the lie of self-abnegation, and the number will continue to grow. As this simmering group of people grows, I believe that one day it will reach a boiling point... maybe the Book of Revelations is right in some ways. I don't like your friend Jante. He wouldn't like me. Re: Shame Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2000 Report Share Posted November 12, 2000 Hi Coolguy. About 'herd' animals. If an individual fish in a shoal doesn't follow the movements of the other individual, they will be sorted out by predators and hunted down. A damage on the side line could be enough. This is not expulsion, but only a separation from the herd. No morality involved. If a herd of antelopes is attacked by lions, the old and outdated buck will stand alone as all the other animals are running away from the buck. I don't think the other animals have any ideas about sacrificing or scapegoating, but it serves the herd. The isolation is not accompanied with moral condemnation, as in humans. In arctic wolf packs, only the leading male and female are allowed to bread. The other females suppresses their heat, but the other males are expulsed forever if they try to copulate with the leading female. The expulsed individual tries to get back by showing every sign of submission and shame, but in the TV program I saw, it didn't help. He was mercilessly chased out by the leader. Among apes an ape raised by humans will not be totally accepted by other apes. It will be tolerated but not accepted. Their body language is strange compared with the others. I've tried to search the net for studies about expulsion in herd animals, but silence so far. It's interesting how humans are more interested in animal sex! Just some thoughts Bjørn coolguy wrote: Hi Bjørn, I like the comparison of cats and dogs and if you are a cat lover, you should see the new film, "Meet the Parents." I definitely take the same view, that the 12steps shaming ritual is like the same shaming rituals used by less developed humans and herd animals, too. I suppose that humanity is at a point where it is evolving from a herd-animal society, to the opposite, a society of individuals. This dichotomy is creating a schism between the more and less evolved humans. There are those not wanting to change, those grasping onto the self-sacrifice concepts of the past - where such concepts were necessary to survive. There are those among them contributing to their shame and to their fear of change, by providing them with shame-rituals and accepting their self-abnegation. There are those who are diametrically opposed to being viewed as members of a herd, who live their lives as freely and independently as this 6 billion member herd will allow. Some within this group are interested in only themselves, and may even take advantage of those who are less evolved. But, those who are most self-assured and want the very best out of themselves and mankind wish to help those less evolved to see that self-abnegation is not the answer, that self-reliance is the answer, because we believe the world will be a better place once this step in evolution has completed, and the sooner the better. This step in evolution has just started, and it is impossible to predict the timeframe of this evolution, though things are progressing more quickly now. The less evolved group is constantly evolving its rituals to remedy its losses, from Gods of Egypt, to God of Israel, to Jesus, to now the 12steps (and millions more I have not mentioned - these are the same inventions you mentioned that make the shaming process tangible). As the more evolved group is becoming more skilled at enlightening less evolved individuals, the rituals that have been successful for that group in the past are now failing. In the future, I hope there is enlightenment so widespread that all of those shaming rituals will fail, there will be no place for them, that the people will know better. When I think about this actually happening, it is awesome. Like the Revelations in the Bible, it will be a major event. I believe for thousands of years the self-reliance of human beings has been swept under the carpet, that they have been taught to serve others, not themselves. There has always been the rebel, the man who craves freedom from others and worships himself, hiding, or being hidden by the powers that be, and the rebels are growing in number. At this point in evolution, the rebels are those who believe their lives are meant to be lived for themselves, and this idea is simmering within the world now. There are more people thinking this way now than ever, more people who no longer believe the lie of self-abnegation, and the number will continue to grow. As this simmering group of people grows, I believe that one day it will reach a boiling point... maybe the Book of Revelations is right in some ways. I don't like your friend Jante. He wouldn't like me. Re: Shame Hello Barnsey. For reasons you couldn't possibly know about, I'm so very pleased about this thread of yours. I think the concept of shame is the most important concept of all understanding human and other herd animals behavior. I know I've bothered this list with my thoughts without response several times, so therefore they'll have to have me excused for repeating myself. My basic assumption is, that shame is angst for expulsion, and that the primary psychic defense mechanism against expulsion is denial. From this follows, with some minor derivations, that AA is organized denial accusing everybody else being in denial. Good luck. Bjørn. A and J wrote: I think I've identified the one thing I felt so uncomfortable with in AA was. SHAME. I've been thinking a lot about this emotion lately. I grew up in a family where I was constantly shamed by my parents. As I grew up, I think I attracted shaming from people. School teachers, peers, then employers, and partners. And when I had used enough alcohol to try to deal with my problems, (a lot of them being shame based stuff), and made my way into AA...........guess what? More shame!!!! The older members who "lovingly" (LOL!) set me straight, and gave me the hard truth about myself. I'm sure everyone here can recite the language of shame that AA uses. "Get Honest!!" I always felt like I was a bad person in AA, despite the cliché I heard so many times about not being bad trying to get good, but sick trying to get well........ So I'm thinking that AA can be a haven for people to transfer their shame onto vulnerable people, in various disguises of "love" and "care". I know that I copped a lot of it. The good news these days is, that by recognising this cycle of shame, I dont allow other people to shame me anymore. I cannot be made to feel anything by anyone else. I am responsible for how I feel and how I act. I wasn't when I was a kid, who just wanted approval and love in his family, like most kids do. But now, as an adult, I can say no to people who try this stuff. Is this making any sense to anyone? It's a revelation I had just recently, and I'm hoping that by posting this, and maybe getting some responses here, I might get it clearer in my mind. It's important to me. I think a lot of damage, both prior to AA and in AA........and maybe even AFTER AA has been centred around the issue of shame. It's a topic I didn't hear too much about in the rewms............I wonder why?Barnsey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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