Re: NY non 12-step referral required <fwd>

[Guest guest]

Hi , folks

I thought I'd send these to the list rather than you personally. Partly

in case they might help a lurker, but forr other " sociological "

reasons. The first one was to a 12-step facility, and I suspect this

one is too - they are using your hubby's psychiatric problem as an

excuse to say " it's not really 12-step that's the problem, it's the

psychiatric problem " . As if only those with psychiatric problems object

to 12-step. Anyway, I hope these are of some use.

P.

--- Begin Forwarded Message ---

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:06:20 EDT

From: RJazwinski@...

Subject: Re: NY non 12-step referral required <fwd>

Sender: RJazwinski@...

To: petejwatts@...

Reply-To: RJazwinski@...

Message-ID:

I read the woman's message as saying that the mental illness issues haven't

been addressed by previous treatment -- and we don't know her insurance

situation -- - but - one choice would be Four Winds in Westchester County -

if NY area means the NYC area.

Dick Jazwinski, PhD, ACSW

In a message dated 10/17/2000 7:27:33 PM, you wrote:

<<Dear Colleagues,

Can anyone assist with a referral for a woman who is seeking an

inpatient treatment facility for her crack using husband in the New

York area which is not 12-step orientated? From the little additional

information there may be a comorbid bipolar disorder.

Thankyou in advance,

Pete Watts

" if they give you lined paper, write the other way "

- juan ramon jimenez "

[Guest guest]

awatt04@... writes:

> any thoughts on this folks? ... P<

The words " con artist " & " lunatic " come to mind ~ Bill (in Pittsburgh)

[Guest guest]

any thoughts on this folks?

P.

--- Begin Forwarded Message ---

Date: Sun, 22 Oct 2000 20:00:56 -0500 (CDT)

Hi all,

I think What is so tragic about the addiction fields

misunderstanding about Cognitive -Behavioral is

that AA and it's founder Bill got started

using the base of spirituality from the Transcendalists

from the last century- New Thought and Religious Science

(which is still very much around, I assure you.)

One of the biggest thinkers of the times, also poets

and writers such as Emerson to Thoreau, etc. were

actually based on healing from THOUGHTS- not focusing

on feelings.

I have researched the history for years, I know of what

I speak. A little known but crucial fact, is that the

Church of Religious Science (and NO, NOT the people

who don't believe in doctors, NO not the Christian

Scientists, who are different bunch altogether!), but New

Thought Christianity founded by Ernest Holmes - is the

basis for " Changing Your Thinking, Change Your Life " long

before AA / Bill came along and/or treatment

programs with CBT came along.

When are the professionals and para-professionals in

ANY state going to get straight on spirituality and

Cognitive Restructuring being really the same thing??

??????

Half the problem exists with prara-professional Alcohol

and Drug Abuse Counselors who may or may not have

even a bachelor degree. Many of them are only members

of 12-step, are still attendees....they go to a few classes

for a year and bingo, they are 'licensed' Which is fine,

I know a lot of good CD Counselors. But they are NOT

(not in any state) trained in grad school level on either

Cognitive Restructuring OR spirituality. Come to think

of it, few psychologists on a Ph.D. level in the addictions

field know of what I speak, either.

Religious Science practitioners are EXEMPT, for example,

in most states, from taking the Masters level counseling

license test, such as an MSW or LPC. They are exempt

for a very good reason. They must study for 2 years on

Religious Science methods of treatment before we are

licensed practitioners. I have grad school training from

some of the best grad schools in psychology, but none

of them come close to the excellence of Religious Science

Practitioners. In a nutshell, it's all about cognitive re-

structuring, how thoughts are the forerunners of our

feelings - and how to turn all that around - and how to

treat for it. Also taught/learned is how all the great

thinkers and healers, eg. Jesus Christ, The Buddha,

etc. have already been teaching it for centuries.

What most anti-cognitive people simply don't get, is that

cognitive restructuring was FIRST spiritual, and it still

is, known as the Church of Religious Science. It's founder

had as it's first members, friends of his such as

Albert Einstein, and Cecil B. DeMille. I have photos

here of Dr. Ernest Holmes and the above persons, along

with many other notables of the day. No dummies.

It saw the link w/ modern science and spirituality LONG before

modern science even found out anything about neurology,

long before biofeedback machines, and now makes

neuro-scientists look like johnny-come-lately=B9s. Dr. Ernest

Holmes had his first Institute but never wanted to make a

'church' out of it until people like Einstein talked him into it.

Now, it proves it was teaching about (for example) endorphins

and the brains joyjuice, long before Dr. Candace Pert was

born. I just can=B9t figure out how people in the addictions

field stay in this field without knowing all about the Church

of Religious Science and it=B9s Cognitive/Spiritual teachings

which have unified all this for centuries. Go figure.

I have to sit back and shake my head and wonder when

people in our field are going to wake up? There is NO need

for the shaming and divisivness which goes on at NYC ers

or in New Hampshire or anywhere else there is Cognitive -

but with untrained 12-step staffers bellowing their

para-professional opinions. Please.

Then for those professionals who have training in grad schools

only - but have NO personal experience in New Thought

churches, the entire situation is made worse - since

they have usually have nopersonal experience with 12-step

either. Or they have ONLY some 12step experience, or

they are just siding with some pals who are expounding or

intellectualizing (guessing) about it but really dont' know the

facts.

People. Please. Send me a plane ticket and I'll speak

to your group and explain just HOW Cognitive and

CBT is even more spiritual than 12-step. It=B9s not

either/or - its BOTH/AND.

So few psychologists are ever taught this in grad school

or anywhere else. We're taught that Albert Ellis

and a few others came up with it...hogwash. He/They

were inspired by others and/or practically copied

what was already written by Ernest Holmes, et al.

Example of one who first inspired modern psychologists

is author , who wrote " As a Man Thinketh " at the

turn of the century. He got his stuff from the same

Transcendentalists of the early 1800=B9s. Modern psych

classes are simply missing the mark by not teaching

grad students about the history and interface between

spirituality and psychology (and I do NOT mean religion)

=8Band what we now think of as psychology, especially in CD,

drug treatment centers. As long as there are treatment

centers which recommend a spiritual recovery (which

is fine) but only limit it to 12Step just because they

don=B9t know about Church of Religious Science, there is

going to be fighting and bickering. As long as there are

CBT who don=B9t realize that it=B9s the same Cognitive change

training being taught by the Church of Religious Science,

there is going to be fighting, bickering and the two camps

continually at odds. This need not be.

Originally, it was New Thought, Religious Science,

Unity and in general, the Transcendentalists from

the early 1800's who have carried the idea of

" Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life " (the

Religious Science byline on it's monthly publica-

tion). Actually, it still is, but few personnel in psych

or addictions actually realize what they are believing

and/or teaching or where it really came from. We

were never taught. Not in AA, Al-Anon, nor in

psych grad school.

There need be NO divisiveness nor antagonism between

the coginitive camp versus the 12-step camp. When

are people in our field ever gonna learn?????

Pay me an honorarium, fly me up, put me in a hotel

for 2 days and let me teach a 6 hour class on uniting

the two. Both sides will be thrilled and relieved and

healed. There won=B9t be any reason for all involved to

not work side by side in peace forever. Cognitive and

spirituality of any kind are really the same - it just

takes a Rel. Sc. Practitioner who is ALSO a psychologist

to spell all out.

Be well.

Kindest regards,

_________

D. Wageck, BS, MA, Ph.D.c, ADC-III-Diplomate,

LCDC, ICADC, CTAC-ACP Advanced Clinical Prac.

> From: FMBishop@...

> Reply-To: apadiv50-forum@...

> Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:04:27 -0500 (CDT)

> To: Multiple recipients of list

> Subject: Re: NY non 12-step referral required

>=20

> Yes. It may seem surprising -- or amazing or depressing, depending on ho=

w

> you look at it -- but that is the case. ers here in NYC started mov=

ing

> in that direction (and I think is still trying to do so), but you probabl=

y

> know what happened there. According to some people I have spoken to, it =

is

> very difficult to keep inpatient and outpatient programs running and no o=

ne

> dares offend their 12-step referral base. This happened six or seven yea=

rs

> ago in New Hampshire. A hospital set aside seven beds for a CBT track.

> Their overall referrals dried up and they dismantled the program. If any=

one

> out there knows of other CBT/REBT programs, please put that info on the

> listserve. What about Canada? With the purchasing power of the dollar s=

o

> high at this point in time, that might be a workable alternative.

>=20

> Good luck.

>=20

> Michler

>=20

--- End Forwarded Message ---

Pete Watts

" if they give you lined paper, write the other way "

- juan ramon jimenez "

[Guest guest]

--- Begin Forwarded Message ---

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 05:08:59 -0500 (CDT)

The issue isn't at all one of " spiritual " vs.

" non-spiritual " in my assessment, but rather one of

human inertia and comfort with what is known, and

human change.

CBT approaches take no position at all about spiritual

aspects of recovery. In fact, here at ers, we

continue to use a core CBT treatment while encouraging

patients to attend virtually the only

abstinence-focused support groups available in the NY

area--12 step groups. The issues we have confronted

don't have to do with CBT vs. 12-step, but rather who

should choose treatment goals and what those goals

should be.

In this latter regard, one needs only read " Alcoholics

Anonymous " carefully (as, unfortunately, few of our

own 12-step trained counselors seem to have done!)to

see that the two approaches are not incompatible. Bill

clearly acknowledges that there are people who

are severe problem drinkers for whom moderation is a

possibility. His view of " alcoholism " is that one

self-diagnoses with that " disorder " --on the basis of

one's own experiences with drinking. The diagnosis

isn't one that is imposed or assigned by a

professional! Once one self-diagnoses, in 's

view, one has automatically ruled out moderation as an

option.

One major problem with 12 Step treatment, as I see it,

is that few providers who profess to know and

understand this approach, seem to have grasped

's basic point, as I've summarized it--that it

is the *PATIENT* who makes the diagnosis, and the

*PATIENT* who must choose the path to recovery--the

professional is merely a guide. We've moved so far

from 's approach in the field that now the

process has become *THE CLINICIAN* makes the

diagnosis, and *THE CLINICIAN* prescribes the path to

recovery!

Given the fact that & Rollnick's and other

motivational approaches are very close to 's

original ideas in their spirit and practice, perhaps

it's time we started trying to shift the debate from

" spiritual " / " non-spiritual " to how we work with

patients!

Fred

--- drw wrote:

> Hi all,

> I think What is so tragic about the addiction fields

> misunderstanding about Cognitive -Behavioral is

> that AA and it's founder Bill got started

> using the base of spirituality from the

> Transcendalists

> from the last century- New Thought and Religious

> Science

> (which is still very much around, I assure you.)

>

> One of the biggest thinkers of the times, also poets

> and writers such as Emerson to Thoreau, etc. were

> actually based on healing from THOUGHTS- not

> focusing

> on feelings.

>

> I have researched the history for years, I know of

> what

> I speak. A little known but crucial fact, is that

> the

> Church of Religious Science (and NO, NOT the people

> who don't believe in doctors, NO not the Christian

> Scientists, who are different bunch altogether!),

> but New

> Thought Christianity founded by Ernest Holmes - is

> the

> basis for " Changing Your Thinking, Change Your

> Life " long

> before AA / Bill came along and/or treatment

> programs with CBT came along.

>

> When are the professionals and para-professionals in

> ANY state going to get straight on spirituality and

> Cognitive Restructuring being really the same

> thing??

> ??????

>

> Half the problem exists with prara-professional

> Alcohol

> and Drug Abuse Counselors who may or may not have

> even a bachelor degree. Many of them are only

> members

> of 12-step, are still attendees....they go to a few

> classes

> for a year and bingo, they are 'licensed' Which is

> fine,

> I know a lot of good CD Counselors. But they are

> NOT

> (not in any state) trained in grad school level on

> either

> Cognitive Restructuring OR spirituality. Come to

> think

> of it, few psychologists on a Ph.D. level in the

> addictions

> field know of what I speak, either.

>

> Religious Science practitioners are EXEMPT, for

> example,

> in most states, from taking the Masters level

> counseling

> license test, such as an MSW or LPC. They are

> exempt

> for a very good reason. They must study for 2 years

> on

> Religious Science methods of treatment before we are

> licensed practitioners. I have grad school training

> from

> some of the best grad schools in psychology, but

> none

> of them come close to the excellence of Religious

> Science

> Practitioners. In a nutshell, it's all about

> cognitive re-

> structuring, how thoughts are the forerunners of our

> feelings - and how to turn all that around - and how

> to

> treat for it. Also taught/learned is how all the

> great

> thinkers and healers, eg. Jesus Christ, The Buddha,

> etc. have already been teaching it for centuries.

>

> What most anti-cognitive people simply don't get, is

> that

> cognitive restructuring was FIRST spiritual, and it

> still

> is, known as the Church of Religious Science. It's

> founder

> had as it's first members, friends of his such as

> Albert Einstein, and Cecil B. DeMille. I have

> photos

> here of Dr. Ernest Holmes and the above persons,

> along

> with many other notables of the day. No dummies.

>

> It saw the link w/ modern science and spirituality

> LONG before

> modern science even found out anything about

> neurology,

> long before biofeedback machines, and now makes

> neuro-scientists look like johnny-come-lately=B9s.

> Dr. Ernest

> Holmes had his first Institute but never wanted to

> make a

> 'church' out of it until people like Einstein talked

> him into it.

> Now, it proves it was teaching about (for example)

> endorphins

> and the brains joyjuice, long before Dr. Candace

> Pert was

> born. I just can=B9t figure out how people in the

> addictions

> field stay in this field without knowing all about

> the Church

> of Religious Science and it=B9s Cognitive/Spiritual

> teachings

> which have unified all this for centuries. Go

> figure.

>

> I have to sit back and shake my head and wonder when

> people in our field are going to wake up? There is

> NO need

> for the shaming and divisivness which goes on at NYC

> ers

> or in New Hampshire or anywhere else there is

> Cognitive -

> but with untrained 12-step staffers bellowing their

> para-professional opinions. Please.

>

> Then for those professionals who have training in

> grad schools

> only - but have NO personal experience in New

> Thought

> churches, the entire situation is made worse - since

> they have usually have nopersonal experience with

> 12-step

> either. Or they have ONLY some 12step experience,

> or

> they are just siding with some pals who are

> expounding or

> intellectualizing (guessing) about it but really

> dont' know the

> facts.

>

> People. Please. Send me a plane ticket and I'll

> speak

> to your group and explain just HOW Cognitive and

> CBT is even more spiritual than 12-step. It=B9s not

> either/or - its BOTH/AND.

>

> So few psychologists are ever taught this in grad

> school

> or anywhere else. We're taught that Albert Ellis

> and a few others came up with it...hogwash. He/They

> were inspired by others and/or practically copied

> what was already written by Ernest Holmes, et al.

> Example of one who first inspired modern

> psychologists

> is author , who wrote " As a Man Thinketh " at

> the

> turn of the century. He got his stuff from the same

> Transcendentalists of the early 1800=B9s. Modern

> psych

> classes are simply missing the mark by not teaching

> grad students about the history and interface

> between

> spirituality and psychology (and I do NOT mean

> religion)

> =8Band what we now think of as psychology,

> especially in CD,

> drug treatment centers. As long as there are

> treatment

> centers which recommend a spiritual recovery (which

> is fine) but only limit it to 12Step just because

> they

> don=B9t know about Church of Religious Science,

> there is

> going to be fighting and bickering. As long as there

> are

> CBT who don=B9t realize that it=B9s the same

> Cognitive change

> training being taught by the Church of Religious

> Science,

> there is going to be fighting, bickering and the two

> camps

> continually at odds. This need not be.

>

> Originally, it was New Thought, Religious Science,

> Unity and in general, the Transcendentalists from

> the early 1800's who have carried the idea of

> " Change Your Thinking, Change Your Life " (the

> Religious Science byline on it's monthly publica-

> tion). Actually, it still is, but few personnel in

> psych

> or addictions actually realize what they are

> believing

> and/or teaching or where it really came from. We

> were never taught. Not in AA, Al-Anon, nor in

> psych grad school.

>

> There need be NO divisiveness nor antagonism between

> the coginitive camp versus the 12-step camp. When

> are people in our field ever gonna learn?????

>

> Pay me an honorarium, fly me up, put me in a hotel

> for 2 days and let me teach a 6 hour class on

> uniting

> the two. Both sides will be thrilled and relieved

> and

> healed. There won=B9t be any reason for all involved

> to

> not work side by side in peace forever. Cognitive

> and

> spirituality of any kind are really the same - it

> just

> takes a Rel. Sc. Practitioner who is ALSO a

> psychologist

> to spell all out.

>

> Be well.

>

> Kindest regards,

>

> _________

> D. Wageck, BS, MA, Ph.D.c, ADC-III-Diplomate,

> LCDC, ICADC, CTAC-ACP Advanced Clinical Prac.

>

> > From: FMBishop@...

> > Reply-To: apadiv50-forum@...

> > Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 15:04:27 -0500 (CDT)

> > To: Multiple recipients of list

>

> > Subject: Re: NY non 12-step referral required

> >=20

> > Yes. It may seem surprising -- or amazing or

> depressing, depending on ho=

> w

> > you look at it -- but that is the case. ers

> here in NYC started mov=

> ing

> > in that direction (and I think is still trying to

> do so), but you probabl=

> y

> > know what happened there. According to some

> people I have spoken to, it =

> is

> > very difficult to keep inpatient and outpatient

> programs running and no o=

> ne

> > dares offend their 12-step referral base. This

> happened six or seven yea=

> rs

> > ago in New Hampshire. A hospital set aside seven

> beds for a CBT track.

> > Their overall referrals dried up and they

> dismantled the program. If any=

> one

> > out there knows of other CBT/REBT programs, please

> put that info on the

> > listserve. What about Canada? With the

> purchasing power of the dollar s=

> o

> > high at this point in time, that might be a

> workable alternative.

> >=20

> > Good luck.

> >=20

> > Michler

> >=20

>

=====

Frederick Rotgers, Psy.D.

" To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. "

Elbert Hubbard

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

My innocent request abt a non 12-step referral in NY has stirred things

up on the APA Div50 list. Like this:

--- Begin Forwarded Message ---

While I was also thinking the same as you, I did not

ask myself because:

There is already too much quoting and blithering

about AA and 12step and =B3what Bill said=B2

yak, yak, yak. For the love of God, Bill

was not a professional.

The question with me is when are people on this list

going to start quoting CBT origins and/or starting

quoting somebody BESIDES old Bill W.?????

The fact that any response to my post is full of

irrelevant yakking about Bill is proof

positive that my post was not understood, and

that all most addiction professisonals know to

quote to their clients (and to each other on the

list) is something a stock broker said in 1936.

Business as usual. Denial as usual. Blind as usual.

I=B9ve had enough. I=B9m logging off.

--- End Forwarded Message ---

Pete Watts

" if they give you lined paper, write the other way "

- juan ramon jimenez "

[Guest guest]

This gets better and better.

Something called the " Church of Religious Science " isnt religious

now....

P.

--- Begin Forwarded Message ---

One major problem is that most people assume or perceive that 12step is

the only or =8Cmajor=B9 support group in most

places.=20

One of the points of my original email is to

dispell that gross misperception.

The Church of Religious Science (which is

actually Cognitive and is NOT religious - good

news for those who are turned off by all

things religious) - has been AROUND A LOT

LONGER THAN 12-step. It=B9s simply not true

not true that they are the only or major

support group. Cof Rel.Science has been

offering the same thing a lot longer. But

the people in our field give it no publicity.

Why not? Because most people like yo have

never heard of it, or don=B9t remember it.

That=B9s the point of my whole reaction of

amazement. It=B9s right here under all our

noses. It=B9s not secret. There are Ch.Rel.Sc.

everywhere. But I don=B9t hear anyone in

our field even looking in the Yellow Pages,

for them in your (or any city), do you?

All the posts on this thread are simply

reinforcing what I=B9ve said for a long time.

That treatment has a DISMAL failure rate

and many times it=B9s becuase the people

leaving treatment really don=B9t care to

go to 12step - plus they are still in need

of some neglected Cognitive Restructuring

when they leave or =B3graduate=B2 from treatment.

All that can be remedied by referring to a

place which teaches MORE Cognitive Restructuring,

namely Church of Religious Science. I bet not

one person on this list has even gone to the

phone, looked up the church in your neighborhood,

planned on attending it, just to see what Cognitive

I=B9m talking about. How many people on this list

are motivate to do that?

I rest my case.=20

>

> Reply-To: apadiv50-forum@...

> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 13:10:47 -0500 (CDT)

> To: Multiple recipients of list

> Subject: Re: NY non 12-step referral required

>=20

> s who attend support groups (by

> which is meant 12-step, since that's virtually all

> there is in most places)

--- End Forwarded Message ---

Pete Watts

" if they give you lined paper, write the other way "

- juan ramon jimenez "