RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

May 31, 2009

Yes, but if one cannot effectively address a behavioral issue, how can one

get to teaching?

--------------------------------------------------

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:25 PM

To: <sList >

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> I agree with your concern! In addition to kids with autism, it's a

> problem with kids with emotional and behavioral disorders, too--the

> watering down or abandoning of the curriculum and just dealing w/behavior.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>> I agree that self-help skills, circle time, and all the occupational

>> necessities should be pursued simultaneously with academics but at

>> what ratio? Perhaps a defeatist attitude is present: this kid will

>> never learn to write, read or do math; it might be easier to correct

>> his behavior.

>>

>> Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>> > >

>> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

>> > Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

>> > the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

>> > and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

>> > move.

>> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

>> > according to another post...

>> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

>> > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

>> > > Thank you so much

>> > >

>> >

>>

>> ------------------------------------

>>

May 31, 2009

I agree with your point, too. I think it depends on the child. In my

experience, sometimes (not always) behavioral issues can be addressed

indirectly, by changing what and/or how one is teaching--what one E/BD

professor up in New York sums up for his students as " too easy, too

hard, too boring. " I've let this idea inform my work with individuals

with autism, as well. I'm thinking of two individuals I worked with in

the past three or four years (in another state), both of whom had autism

and intellectual disability-- " too hard " and " too boring " turned out to

be at the heart of some of their challenging behaviors. For instance,

the consultant in each case had me in the therapy room with edibles

trying to get the child to do vocal imitation drills, despite the fact

that the data over time just didn't support continuing these

efforts--these kids were getting older, they had no appropriate way to

communicate with those around them, and it was time (past time!) for

picture exchange, sign, and/or assistive technology.

Like I said, though--just my experience. Anyone else want to chime in?

Tina Terri Austin wrote:

> Yes, but if one cannot effectively address a behavioral issue, how can one

> get to teaching?

>

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:25 PM

> To: <sList >

> Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

>> I agree with your concern! In addition to kids with autism, it's a

>> problem with kids with emotional and behavioral disorders, too--the

>> watering down or abandoning of the curriculum and just dealing w/behavior.

>>

>> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>>> I agree that self-help skills, circle time, and all the occupational

>>> necessities should be pursued simultaneously with academics but at

>>> what ratio? Perhaps a defeatist attitude is present: this kid will

>>> never learn to write, read or do math; it might be easier to correct

>>> his behavior.

>>>

>>> Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>>>>>

>>>>> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

>>>>>

>>>> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

>>>> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

>>>> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

>>>> move.

>>>>

>>>>> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

>>>>>

>>>> according to another post...

>>>>

>>>>> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

>>>>>

>>>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

>>>>

>>>>> Thank you so much

>>>>>

>>>>

>>> ------------------------------------

>>>

May 31, 2009

Essentially, what you and I are speaking of is having a team-a village- to address our kiddos' needs. Many do not even realize what they are doing when they try to help the teacher or other professional working with our kids.

Even at my son's karate classes, I often see parents watch as their kids do something and they try to yell from the sidelines. Not realizing that the instructor was instantly made the person no longer in charge of their class. Now the parent is in charge. And these are "typical" kids.

The other aspect is the "hero" where an authority figure is trying to implement a strategy or intervention and another authority figure comes along and gives in to the child's demands. The "hero" is now in charge and the other individual no longer has control.

People do not even realize when they do this. It happens to parents ALL the time, even parents who are aware of it. It takes a lot of work and being conscious of yourself and others and most importantly what the child needs at that point in time and the lesson they will learn from it.

I have known teachers to not take days off out of their classroom b/c it is so hard to get them back.

Again, having a plan and everyone be aware of all the possibilities and an open communication understanding in place is important.

From: Farley

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:50 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Thanks so much for acknowledging how hard it can be for a kiddo to have both Mom/Dad and Teacher in the same place at the same time! As an early childhood teacher, I did, indeed, find this difficult sometimes. And, it wasn't because I didn't believe in having an open-door policy for parents. Nor did I have anything to hide. Rather, it's just hard for some of these little ones to let go of Mom & Dad, regardless of how much they like their teacher and their friends. Once they made it past that transition, they were just fine, but to have them make that transition more than once in a day was, I admit, not something I was eager to have happen. And, both in the classroom and as a home therapist, I'd have parents who would interfere, undermine my authority, and critique what I was doing, rather than engaging me in conversation about WHY I was doing it--I really did have a plan! . It was frustrating and left me feeling like I was being treated more like a babysitter than as a professional.So, while I can't speak for other teachers, I can say from my own experience that yes, I would be most grateful to talk with parents about the best way to set up their participation in classroom life so that it could be productive and enjoyable for everyone involved.Tina Terri Austin wrote:>>> All schools are different and all administrators are different. They > all have their own sets of rules.> We are able to sign up to volunteer on our BCSB website, which is good.> I also believe in developing strong relationships with the school > staff. I realize we, as parents, sometimes get caught up in > adversarial relationships with schools based on what we hear and our > experiences.> The rapport that we can establish with teachers, paras, autism coaches > is important.> I also understand that sometimes, trying to volunteer at our kids' > schools can be detrimental as it places the child in a confusing place > of who is in charge, my mom/dad or my teacher? That may be why some > teachers and schools are resistant. It could happen that a parent gets > their kid all riled up and then leaves them for the teacher to deal > with. Not an easy place to be.> In that regard, perhaps setting up some limitations is not a bad idea. > For example, perhaps I will only come on Mondays and have lunch with > my son and one of his peers.> Or, perhaps I can schedule to come for recess and be ready to play.> Boundaries are imperative. I also forget that some parents have > difficulties switching roles, from parent to facilitator of peer > relationships. We all come to the parenting table with our own history > of issues, which can affect our ability to parent and our ability to > participate in these activities. I remember being very upset when I > perceived my son was rejected. He had no idea nor did he care. That > was MY issue, not his. If I don't maintain awareness of this, I could > inadvertently negatively affect the therapeutic process for him.> So, yes, there are larger issues to address.> My opinion (my, I have a lot of them), is that when we chose to be a > parent, we chose to be a parent and to parent our children. It is not > about us. It is about them. We cannot always choose what we get (for > our child) but it is the most important thing we will do and whatever > I got is what I have to work with and care for and teach.>> *From:* Lizzie Berg <mailto:floridalizzie>> *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2009 11:57 PM> *To:* sList <mailto:sList >> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>> Tina,> your advice to and others who are unhappy with public schools is > good, but it may be easier said than done. Many schools do not allow > family members to have lunch or lunch bunch , and they can't volonteer > in a classroom where their child is. Many clusters refrain from having > volunteers at all.> has said before that he tried to observe his child, but that the > school set limits there too. Most schools that I know of will limit > observations.> Liz>> > >>> >>> >> And what about the autistic child who has social issues and> therefore> >> needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and> >> will waist time when others in the group or the group itself> are being> >> addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would> hope he> >> is in a regular class.> >>> >> *From:* sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >> >> [mailto:sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >]> *On Behalf Of *shirlygilad> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM> >> *To:* sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >> >> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups> >> respond to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one> >> example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the> group in> >> general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific> child.> >> In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the> >> group concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals> within> >> the group.....> >>> >> Shirly Gilad> >>> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>> >> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > > To: sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >> >> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>> >> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>> >> > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> >> > >> >> > > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have> >> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the> child). Some> >> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism> >> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal> >> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and> >> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _____> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> >> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> >> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > >> >> > > What is "Complex Place"?> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: bijcom> >> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>> >> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@>>>> >> > >> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> >> > >> >> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups.> >>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >> >>> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList > <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>>> >> com> >> > >> >> > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a> >> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting,> but is> >> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other> >> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school> know> >> we want to move.> >> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising> >> according to another post...> >> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and> I've> >> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> >> > > Thank you so much> >> > >> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> > ------------------------------------> >> >

May 31, 2009

I understand your points . And I think your a great advocate and we are similar by questioning everything. I agree that academics are important. But, I feel, you need to give our children the stepping stones so they can excel in the academics. That's why I like the STAR program...it gives the stepping stones for success in education. Did you visit the website I posted about the STAR program?

To: sList Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:17:22 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I think we spend too much time on the non academic areas and not enough time on academics. The system is to short sighted by neglecting reading, writing and arithmetic. Visual clues are a great teacher but if the child can vocalize what he wants, drop the visual clues. All children are different. We should take a closer look at what the child knows instead of stressing what we think he needs. This is the downfall of programs that neglect differences. Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > >> > >> > >> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a > Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is > that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other > programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know > we want to move.> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising > according to another post...> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> > > Thank you so much> > >> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------

May 31, 2009

Liz,

I know that most public schools who have a PTA allow you to be a volunteer in the school. I volunteered at my son's school. I decided to help out in one on the 2nd grade classes. I do not know how other schools operate, as for I only have one child and I am going by my experience there.

To: sList Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 11:57:14 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina,

your advice to and others who are unhappy with public schools is good, but it may be easier said than done. Many schools do not allow family members to have lunch or lunch bunch , and they can't volonteer in a classroom where their child is. Many clusters refrain from having volunteers at all.

has said before that he tried to observe his child, but that the school set limits there too. Most schools that I know of will limit observations.

Liz>>>>>> And what about the autistic child who has social issues and therefore>> needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and>> will waist time when others

in the group or the group itself are being>> addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would hope he>> is in a regular class.>>>> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of *shirlygilad>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM>> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups>> respond

to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one>> example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the group in>> general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific child.>> In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the>> group concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals within>> the group.....>>>> Shirly Gilad>>>> >> > >>> > >>> > > From: M Veliz

<Veliz@>>> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com>> <mailto:sList% 40yahoogroups. com>>> <mailto:sList% 40yahoogroups. com>>> > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM>> > >>> > > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have>> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some>> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism>> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal>> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and>> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!>> >

>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > _____>> > >>> > >>> > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>>> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com>> > > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM>> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>> > >>> > > What is "Complex Place"?>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > From: bijcom>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@>>>> > >>> > > Sent:

Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM>> > >>> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups.>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>>>> com>> > >>> > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a>> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is>> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other>>

programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know>> we want to move.>> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising>> according to another post...>> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...>> > > Thank you so much>> > >>> >>>>>>>> ------------ --------- --------- ------>>

May 31, 2009

, Thank you. I am very proud of my son. I guess I got lucky with the school we decided to put him in for elementary. I have teachers, there ESE team and Autism Coach who keep me informed all the time about what is going on with him. Anytime I have a question, regardless of what the wuestion is, they always have informative answers.

I do not want it to seem that I settle....for that word seems like a "hey this is just how its going to be". Yes, our kids will have to work twice as hard, as long as they are pushed to. And if you find great teachers and other professionals to do that, then its great. I have to say that at this moment, from him going to Baudwin and now where he is at now I am actually happy to see that he is on his way to meet his goals. Your right we live in an imperfect world. But our kids/grandkids have us to advocate and wont settle for less.

To: sList Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 11:33:58 AMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, you should be very proud that your son has completed kindergarten. Its ironic that kids who have delays seem to work at least twice as hard as the typical child. Itâ€™s too bad we donâ€™t give a grade for effort. Since we live in an imperfect world I donâ€™t think we should ever be completely satisfied in the method of how our childrenâ€™s progress.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Friday, May 29, 2009 2:39 PMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was perfect. We will just have to see. Next week I will be attending my son's kindergarden graduation.. ..and I am so proud of him. He is happy.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandt@ bellsouth. net>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Friday, May 29, 2009 5:41:58 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Thanks! I was nervous about my comments regarding feeling as if we need to make a choice at times between fighting for our kids' education and their happiness. I did not want that to be misconstrued or misunderstood to mean that ultimately that is where we are at as parents. In some cases, it may be, in some it is not and we all go through phases as our kids grow. Like I said, my son is in kindergarten and functioning rather well at this time both academically and that he is happy. But, I cannot predict how he may be functioning in the future. We will just have to see.

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:00 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was good.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandt@ bellsouth. net>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the "principals of ABA." They use discrete trials in most cases to teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your question, "how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a group?" What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to "know" or "think" or "understand" .

I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is what "should" be happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When "typical"

kids are falling behind in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he wants and can do.. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally different conversation. These viewpoints also change on

a regular basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is good. Error! Filename not specified.

In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that one-on-one.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of WihlborgSent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

From: Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>To: sList@ yahoogroups. comSent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PMSubject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t use. So, based on is baseless.

From: sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of bijcomSent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AMTo: sList@ yahoogroups. comSubject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles in a group setting... Does it make sense? Or not?> > > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> > > > > _____ > > > From: Vivian

<vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > What is "Complex Place"?> > > > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . . . com> com > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an

IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to move.> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to another post...> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> Thank you so much>

May 31, 2009

,

I agree. Even though I volenteered for the 2008/2009 school year at my sons school, and I plan to do it for the next school year as well....I can not volenteer in his class. When my son sees my or my husband he associates that weith us taking him home. That is why I go to another class. His teachers klnow I am there, and know I live a few minutes away if anything goes on, but I want him to know that school is school.

To: sList Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 9:50:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Thanks so much for acknowledging how hard it can be for a kiddo to have both Mom/Dad and Teacher in the same place at the same time! As an early childhood teacher, I did, indeed, find this difficult sometimes. And, it wasn't because I didn't believe in having an open-door policy for parents. Nor did I have anything to hide. Rather, it's just hard for some of these little ones to let go of Mom & Dad, regardless of how much they like their teacher and their friends. Once they made it past that transition, they were just fine, but to have them make that transition more than once in a day was, I admit, not something I was eager to have happen. And, both in the classroom and as a home therapist, I'd have parents who would interfere, undermine my authority, and critique what I was doing, rather than engaging me in conversation about WHY I was doing it--I really did have a plan! . It was frustrating and

left me feeling like I was being treated more like a babysitter than as a professional.So, while I can't speak for other teachers, I can say from my own experience that yes, I would be most grateful to talk with parents about the best way to set up their participation in classroom life so that it could be productive and enjoyable for everyone involved.Tina Terri Austin wrote:>>> All schools are different and all administrators are different. They > all have their own sets of rules.> We are able to sign up to volunteer on our BCSB website, which is good.> I also believe in developing strong relationships with the school > staff. I realize we, as parents, sometimes get caught up in > adversarial relationships with schools based on what we hear and our > experiences.> The rapport that we can establish with teachers, paras, autism coaches > is

important.> I also understand that sometimes, trying to volunteer at our kids' > schools can be detrimental as it places the child in a confusing place > of who is in charge, my mom/dad or my teacher? That may be why some > teachers and schools are resistant. It could happen that a parent gets > their kid all riled up and then leaves them for the teacher to deal > with. Not an easy place to be.> In that regard, perhaps setting up some limitations is not a bad idea. > For example, perhaps I will only come on Mondays and have lunch with > my son and one of his peers.> Or, perhaps I can schedule to come for recess and be ready to play.> Boundaries are imperative. I also forget that some parents have > difficulties switching roles, from parent to facilitator of peer > relationships. We all come to the parenting table with our own history > of issues, which can

affect our ability to parent and our ability to > participate in these activities. I remember being very upset when I > perceived my son was rejected. He had no idea nor did he care. That > was MY issue, not his. If I don't maintain awareness of this, I could > inadvertently negatively affect the therapeutic process for him.> So, yes, there are larger issues to address.> My opinion (my, I have a lot of them), is that when we chose to be a > parent, we chose to be a parent and to parent our children. It is not > about us. It is about them.. We cannot always choose what we get (for > our child) but it is the most important thing we will do and whatever > I got is what I have to work with and care for and teach.>> *From:* Lizzie Berg <mailto:floridalizzie@

yahoo.com>> *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2009 11:57 PM> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>> Tina,> your advice to and others who are unhappy with public schools is > good, but it may be easier said than done. Many schools do not allow > family members to have lunch or lunch bunch , and they can't volonteer > in a classroom where their child is. Many clusters refrain from having > volunteers at all.> has said before that he tried to observe his child, but that the > school set limits there too. Most

schools that I know of will limit > observations.> Liz>> > >>> >>> >> And what about the autistic child who has social issues and> therefore> >> needs the one-on-one. In this case the group serves no purpose and> >> will waist time when others in the group or the group itself> are being> >> addressed. If the child can act as part of the group I would> hope he> >> is in a regular class.> >>> >> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>> >> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>]> *On Behalf Of *shirlygilad> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 10:03 AM> >> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.

com>> >> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> You can certainly use ABA principals in a group setting. Groups> >> respond to reinforcements as do individuals. A token system is one> >> example of a group ABA approach where there are rules for the> group in> >> general but you can individualize it to the needs of a specific> child.> >> In short, , as a BCBA I can tell you that we do not reject the> >> group concept. We just don't forget that there are individuals> within> >> the group.....> >>> >> Shirly Gilad> >>> >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: M Veliz <Veliz@>> >> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>> >> <mailto:sList %40yahoogroups. com>> >> <mailto:sList %40yahoogroups. com>> >> > > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM> >> > >> >> > > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who

have> >> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the> child). Some> >> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism> >> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal> >> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and> >> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > _____> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>> >> > > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM> >> > > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > >> >> > > What is

"Complex Place"?> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > From: bijcom> >> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@>> >> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@>>>> >> > >> >> > > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM> >> > >> >> >

> To: sList@ yahoogroups.> >>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>> >>> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com> <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups. com>>>> >> com> >> > >>

>> > > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a> >> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting,> but is> >> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other> >> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school> know> >> we want to move.> >> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising> >> according to another post....> >> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and> I've> >> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...> >> > > Thank you so much> >> > >> >> >>

>>> >>> >> >> > ------------ --------- --------- ------> >> >

May 31, 2009

You are absolutely right in that when our kids are bored, they do tend to

act out. Again, it takes knowing your kids that you serve. Trying many

strategies too. Good input.

--------------------------------------------------

Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 8:33 AM

To: <sList >

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> I agree with your point, too. I think it depends on the child. In my

> experience, sometimes (not always) behavioral issues can be addressed

> indirectly, by changing what and/or how one is teaching--what one E/BD

> professor up in New York sums up for his students as " too easy, too

> hard, too boring. " I've let this idea inform my work with individuals

> with autism, as well. I'm thinking of two individuals I worked with in

> the past three or four years (in another state), both of whom had autism

> and intellectual disability-- " too hard " and " too boring " turned out to

> be at the heart of some of their challenging behaviors. For instance,

> the consultant in each case had me in the therapy room with edibles

> trying to get the child to do vocal imitation drills, despite the fact

> that the data over time just didn't support continuing these

> efforts--these kids were getting older, they had no appropriate way to

> communicate with those around them, and it was time (past time!) for

> picture exchange, sign, and/or assistive technology.

>

> Like I said, though--just my experience. Anyone else want to chime in?

>

> Tina Terri Austin wrote:

>> Yes, but if one cannot effectively address a behavioral issue, how can

>> one

>> get to teaching?

>>

>> --------------------------------------------------

>>

>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 4:25 PM

>> To: <sList >

>> Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>>> I agree with your concern! In addition to kids with autism, it's a

>>> problem with kids with emotional and behavioral disorders, too--the

>>> watering down or abandoning of the curriculum and just dealing

>>> w/behavior.

>>>

>>> Heifferon wrote:

>>>

>>>> I agree that self-help skills, circle time, and all the occupational

>>>> necessities should be pursued simultaneously with academics but at

>>>> what ratio? Perhaps a defeatist attitude is present: this kid will

>>>> never learn to write, read or do math; it might be easier to correct

>>>> his behavior.

>>>>

>>>> Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>>>>>>

>>>>>> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

>>>>>>

>>>>> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

>>>>> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

>>>>> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

>>>>> move.

>>>>>

>>>>>> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

>>>>>>

>>>>> according to another post...

>>>>>

>>>>>> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

>>>>>>

>>>>> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

>>>>>

>>>>>> Thank you so much

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>> ------------------------------------

>>>>

May 31, 2009

, I did go to the STAR site. I really need to review it

more thoroughly. I did get the initial impression that if a child can do

academics he has to compete for time with the Program.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Wihlborg

Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:19 AM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I understand your points . And I think your a great

advocate and we are similar by questioning everything. I agree that academics

are important. But, I feel, you need to give our children the

stepping stones so they can excel in the academics. That's why I like the

STAR program...it gives the stepping stones for success in education. Did you

visit the website I posted about the STAR program?

To: sList

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 10:17:22 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I think we spend too much time on the non

academic areas and not enough time on academics. The system is to short sighted

by neglecting reading, writing and arithmetic. Visual clues are a great teacher

but if the child can vocalize what he wants, drop the visual clues. All

children are different. We should take a closer look at what the child knows

instead of stressing what we think he needs. This is the downfall of programs

that neglect differences.

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > >

> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> we want to move.

> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > Thank you so much

> > >

> >

>

------------ --------- --------- ------

May 31, 2009

Letâ€™s assume his receptive language is either close or at grade

level but the expressive language is not. Do we curtail the imput because the

output needs work? This may have nothing to do with math concepts either. You

have to view the whole child and work on those areas that can be worked on. If

the child cannot clean his but but otherwise is toilet trained, his but can

wait but learning the academics canâ€™t or should not. It makes sense if you

realize learning academics is more important than the kids but. Do both but prioritize

the learning. Following a schedule and sitting at a desk are primarily routines

the child learns and autictic children love routine. And if you donâ€™t think so,

try changing the routine. Teaching them math concepts has nothing to do with

any of the above.

If language development is delayed then that is more important

than socializing with peers and learn basic skills such as turn taking. I am

not saying that there should be no emphasis in socialization but not at the

expense of language development.

So we hope your son learns to socialize and take turns. But wait

a minute. He has to be able to read and write to fill out that job application.

If he ever buys anything on his own donâ€™t we want him to be able to compute his

change? Â And as far as civilized nations go, someday when he goes into the

voting booth it may be important to know Cuba is 90 miles off the coast of

Florida and it has a communist form of government.

Visuals are very important as long as the child needs them. Once

he can vocalize things you can drop the visuals. In fact drop the visuals

whenever possible. Push the vocal.

I have to admit I donâ€™t know your child but all these children

are never identical and yet we have the inflexible STAR Program to teach them

what it teaches.

From: sList

[mailto:sList ] On Behalf Of Tina Terri Austin

Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2009 6:36 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I

disagree that we spend too much time on non-academics and not enough time on

academics. If a child's expressive/receptive language is not on grade/age

level, that should be worked on before trying to teach them to read. It

doesn't even make sense.

Also,

if a first grader cannot wipe their butt, follow a schedule, sit at a desk and

complete a simple task, what good is teaching them subtraction?

If

a child's language development is not age appropriate and they are not

socializing with their peers and learning basic skills like turn taking, asking

to play, then academics are not as important.

When

my son graduates high school, it is more important, I believe, for him to know

how to solve a social problem (so he can get and keep a job) than it is for him

to know who civilized what nation.

Please

note this is just my opinion because I am focused on the social aspect, for my

child, more than the academic aspect.

And,

visuals merely support learning. There is a lot of research to

substantiate that. Some of our kids need the visual because they can

process that faster than the vocal words and sometimes the words are too

much. We talk too much for them sometimes.

And,

I agree that learning should be individualized. Not easy but yes, a great

ultimate goal.

From: Heifferon

Sent: Friday, May 29,

2009 10:17 PM

To: sList

Subject: RE:

Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I think we spend too much time on the non

academic areas and not enough time on academics. The system is to short sighted

by neglecting reading, writing and arithmetic. Visual clues are a great teacher

but if the child can vocalize what he wants, drop the visual clues. All

children are different. We should take a closer look at what the child knows

instead of stressing what we think he needs. This is the downfall of programs that

neglect differences.

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > >

> > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> we want to move.

> > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > Thank you so much

> > >

> >

>

------------------------------------

May 31, 2009

Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time

is your first cup of java?

Utilizing the principles of ABA isnâ€™t the same as using ABA. And

all the research is on ABA itself Â and not its principles. Also STAR Program is

suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesnâ€™t use 15 minute blerps in its principles. As

someone pointed out something is better than nothing. Or is it? And the school

districts will go to great lengths to say they donâ€™t use ABA. Â They want their

cake and eat it too.

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Wihlborg

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Tina, I think what you said was good.

To: sList

Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AM

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

STAR

is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the

" principals of ABA. " They use discrete trials in most cases to

teach concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to

teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote generalization.

STAR

has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each individual

child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving forward to teach

other skills outside of the ABLLS.

Your

question, " how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think he's in a

group? " What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think

or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the principals

of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to reinforcement of certain

behaviors. Nobody has to " know " or " think " or

" understand " .

I

know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he receives, or

does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he attends school so

I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular school's autism

program. However, I also recognize that parents come to a time (as did I)

where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we push for our kid to be

educated or do we settle (or feel like we are settling) for them being

happy? I am not by any means saying this is what " should " be

happening but my guess is it does with many parents. There are times I am

not fully satisfied with something at my son's school but ultimately he is

learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I believe he could be learning

more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior specialist but is that practical and is

that their job or is there some part I am accountable for? When

" typical " kids are falling behind in reading, their parents get

tutors, not press the schools to do more with their child. Just a

thought. I guess for us, we decided that if he stays with us

forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan for that; if that is what he

wants and can do. This does not mean in any way that we are giving up on

him or his education or in teaching him what we think he needs to know to

survive and continue to be happy in his life. His happiness is far more

important to us than if he can regurgitate some academic information. We

want him to be safe, learn more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or

2. Whatever he can do and what he wants for himself. I also know

this is easy for me to say at this time because he is doing really well and is

only in kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally

different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular

basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is

good. Error! Filename not specified.

In

an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in behavior

analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive every

curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark, Touchmath,

ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our ESE

programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their schools and make

every effort to accommodate and include our kids in the most positive

atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would be at our kids'

disposals for every need and the consultations would happen on a regular

basis. Funding for programs would be available. Funding

BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

Ok,

that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this

system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your

grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on a

larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

From: Heifferon

Sent: Wednesday, May 27,

2009 3:11 PM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: RE:

Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Broward. How does the Star Program

address the Spectrum and not just a part of it? Also Star is not a

curriculum but a method of teaching. And how do you teach a child in a group

who doesnâ€™t think heâ€™s in a group? And what does the child do while you are

teaching someone else he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very

intensive and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that

one-on-one.

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On

Behalf Of Wihlborg

Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

I

agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group

setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school and

he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ? I know

that my son's school uses it for their students.

From:

Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PM

Subject: RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very

nature. They reject the group concept. So therefore, it holds no validity.

Unless you have some empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an

ABA component which the school districtâ€™s program conveniently doesnâ€™t

use. So, based on is baseless.

From:

sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList @yahoogroups. com] On

Behalf Of bijcom

Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

Subject: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

, I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's because

they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher time, redirection.

...so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology. It's not one-on-one therapy

but you can still use the same principles in a group setting.. Does it make

sense? Or not?

>

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> To: sList@

yahoogroups. com

> Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

>

> Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have greater

difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some students who

attend complex place may or may not be in the autism spectrum disorder. Eagle

Point is a wonderful school- the principal and staff members there are

fantastic! Schedule an appointment and visit their open house. You will be

pleased! Good luck Vivian!

>

> _____

>

> From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What is " Complex Place " ?

>

> From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107.

mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=bijcom@ ...>

>

> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

>

> To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose? to=sList@

yahoogroups.. . com> com

>

> Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

>

> What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex Place

and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that the only way? I

would like to talk to someone about the other programs and tour some of the

schools before letting the school know we want to move.

> Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising according to

another post...

> Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've never

heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> Thank you so much

>

May 31, 2009

We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and then

re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA. Using

reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function of

behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

Heifferon wrote:

>

> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

> your first cup of java?

>

> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And all

> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerps in

> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> Tina, I think what you said was good.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> *From:* Tina Terri Austin

> *To:* sList

> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 6:21:17 AM

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> STAR is a curriculum, not a method of teaching. They, too, utilize the

> " principals of ABA. " They use discrete trials in most cases to teach

> concepts. I assume (and hope) that at some point it fades out to

> teaching the concepts in the natural environment to promote

> generalization.

>

> STAR has 3 levels of their curriculum and can be tailored to each

> individual child. Some of the curriculum actually continues moving

> forward to teach other skills outside of the ABLLS.

>

> Your question, " how do you teach a child in a group who doesn't think

> he's in a group? " What does that mean? The child doesn't need to think

> or even know he is in a group to learn. In fact, based on the

> principals of ABA, he could be a rat as he would just respond to

> reinforcement of certain behaviors. Nobody has to " know " or " think " or

> " understand " .

>

> I know you are concerned about your grandson and the services he

> receives, or does not receive, in his school. I don't know where he

> attends school so I cannot attest to what occurs in that particular

> school's autism program. However, I also recognize that parents come

> to a time (as did I) where we feel we have to make a decision. Do we

> push for our kid to be educated or do we settle (or feel like we are

> settling) for them being happy? I am not by any means saying this is

> what " should " be happening but my guess is it does with many parents.

> There are times I am not fully satisfied with something at my son's

> school but ultimately he is learning and he is happy. Sometimes, I

> believe he could be learning more with a one-to-one teacher/behavior

> specialist but is that practical and is that their job or is there

> some part I am accountable for? When " typical " kids are falling behind

> in reading, their parents get tutors, not press the schools to do more

> with their child. Just a thought. I guess for us, we decided that if

> he stays with us forever, he stays with us forever and we will plan

> for that; if that is what he wants and can do. This does not mean in

> any way that we are giving up on him or his education or in teaching

> him what we think he needs to know to survive and continue to be happy

> in his life. His happiness is far more important to us than if he can

> regurgitate some academic information. We want him to be safe, learn

> more of the hidden curriculum and have a friend or 2. Whatever he can

> do and what he wants for himself. I also know this is easy for me to

> say at this time because he is doing really well and is only in

> kindergarten. When he reaches high school, this may be a totally

> different conversation. These viewpoints also change on a regular

> basis. This is today, this morning, early thoughts when everything is

> good. *Error! Filename not specified.*

>

> In an ideal world, all ESE teachers would also hold certifications in

> behavior analysis. All administrators would ensure our kids receive

> every curriculum they need based on them as individuals (Edmark,

> Touchmath, ABLLS, VB-MAPP, etc.). All administrators would support our

> ESE programs in their schools and welcome us and our kids to their

> schools and make every effort to accommodate and include our kids in

> the most positive atmosphere. The entire multi-disciplinary team would

> be at our kids' disposals for every need and the consultations would

> happen on a regular basis. Funding for programs would be available.

> Funding BCBA's/BCaBA' s would be available. I could go on...

>

> Ok, that is my morning rant. , I know you are frustrated with this

> system. You appear to be a very vocal and informed advocate for your

> grandson and your daughter. Have you been involved in any advocacy on

> a larger scale? For example, to find funding for ABA in the school system?

>

> *From:* Heifferon

>

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 3:11 PM

>

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:sList >

>

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> Broward. How does the Star Program address the Spectrum and not just a

> part of it? Also Star is not a curriculum but a method of teaching.

> And how do you teach a child in a group who doesn’t think he’s in a

> group? And what does the child do while you are teaching someone else

> he does not recognize? Perhaps he will stim. Its not very intensive

> and it is a waste of time for the child who is waiting for that

> one-on-one.

>

> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList

> @yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:05 AM

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> I agree . How can someone benefit from ABA if its not ina group

> setting? My son is one the STAR program now at his elementary school

> and he is doing great. What school district are you refering to ?

> I know that my son's school uses it for their students.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> *From:* Heifferon <gary00001msn (DOT) com>

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 26, 2009 9:19:01 PM

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> ABA is by itself one-to-one by its very nature. They reject the group

> concept. So therefore, it holds no validity. Unless you have some

> empirical data demonstrating such. Star Programs have an ABA component

> which the school district’s program conveniently doesn’t use. So,

> based on is baseless.

>

> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:sList

> @yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of *bijcom

> *Sent:* Sunday, May 24, 2009 11:32 AM

> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com

> *Subject:* Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> , I've heard this from mothers of kids in Complex PLACES... it's

> because they use errorless teaching, discrete trials during teacher

> time, redirection. ..so it's based on ABA priciples, or methodology.

> It's not one-on-one therapy but you can still use the same principles

> in a group setting.. Does it make sense? Or not?

>

> >

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> > Date: Wednesday, May 20, 2009, 6:02 AM

> >

> > Complex place is a smaller group setting of students who have

> greater difficulties with language (based on need of the child). Some

> students who attend complex place may or may not be in the autism

> spectrum disorder. Eagle Point is a wonderful school- the principal

> and staff members there are fantastic! Schedule an appointment and

> visit their open house. You will be pleased! Good luck Vivian!

> >

> > _____

> >

> > From: Vivian <vivieddiehotmail (DOT) com>

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. com

> > Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2009 6:45:54 PM

> > Subject: Re: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What is " Complex Place " ?

> >

> > From: bijcom <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo. com/mc/compose?

> to=bijcom@ ...

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=bijcom@...>>

> >

> > Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 1:26 PM

> >

> > To: sList@ yahoogroups. <http://us.mc1107. mail.yahoo.

> com/mc/compose? to=sList@ yahoogroups.. . com

> <http://us.mc1107.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=sList >>

> com

> >

> > Subject: Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> >

> > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a Complex

> Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is that

> the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other programs

> and tour some of the schools before letting the school know we want to

> move.

> > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> according to another post...

> > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > Thank you so much

> >

>

May 31, 2009

An individual can go into a supported employment arrangement as an adult

without being able to read or write.

If I had to choose between wiping the behind of an older child or adult

or helping them count out change, bring on the change!

When we talk about " language development, " we must remember that, for

some of our kiddos, that's going to mean sign language, picture

exchange, and/or communication devices instead of, in addition to, or on

the way to, developing speech. To deny this reality is to leave them

imprisoned, with challenging behavior often being the only way to

communicate pain, anger, boredom, and frustration.

Voting? Communism? I see your point--let's not limit the higher

functioning kids on the spectrum. But when I think back on several of my

clients: They will never vote. They'll never live alone, even. But, they

can learn how behave in public, how to accomplish basic tasks, how to

interact with friends and family and pets. With the proper supports and

in the right environment, they might do basic work tasks as adults.

Pushing vocals and dropping visuals would only do them harm.

This is a spectrum disorder. There is no one answer.

Heifferon wrote:

>

> Let’s assume his receptive language is either close or at grade level

> but the expressive language is not. Do we curtail the imput because

> the output needs work? This may have nothing to do with math concepts

> either. You have to view the whole child and work on those areas that

> can be worked on. If the child cannot clean his but but otherwise is

> toilet trained, his but can wait but learning the academics can’t or

> should not. It makes sense if you realize learning academics is more

> important than the kids but. Do both but prioritize the learning.

> Following a schedule and sitting at a desk are primarily routines the

> child learns and autictic children love routine. And if you don’t

> think so, try changing the routine. Teaching them math concepts has

> nothing to do with any of the above.

>

> If language development is delayed then that is more important than

> socializing with peers and learn basic skills such as turn taking. I

> am not saying that there should be no emphasis in socialization but

> not at the expense of language development.

>

> So we hope your son learns to socialize and take turns. But wait a

> minute. He has to be able to read and write to fill out that job

> application. If he ever buys anything on his own don’t we want him to

> be able to compute his change? And as far as civilized nations go,

> someday when he goes into the voting booth it may be important to know

> Cuba is 90 miles off the coast of Florida and it has a communist form

> of government.

>

> Visuals are very important as long as the child needs them. Once he

> can vocalize things you can drop the visuals. In fact drop the visuals

> whenever possible. Push the vocal.

>

> I have to admit I don’t know your child but all these children are

> never identical and yet we have the inflexible STAR Program to teach

> them what it teaches.

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *Tina Terri Austin

> *Sent:* Saturday, May 30, 2009 6:36 PM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> I disagree that we spend too much time on non-academics and not enough

> time on academics. If a child's expressive/receptive language is not

> on grade/age level, that should be worked on before trying to teach

> them to read. It doesn't even make sense.

>

> Also, if a first grader cannot wipe their butt, follow a schedule, sit

> at a desk and complete a simple task, what good is teaching them

> subtraction?

>

> If a child's language development is not age appropriate and they are

> not socializing with their peers and learning basic skills like turn

> taking, asking to play, then academics are not as important.

>

> When my son graduates high school, it is more important, I believe,

> for him to know how to solve a social problem (so he can get and keep

> a job) than it is for him to know who civilized what nation.

>

> Please note this is just my opinion because I am focused on the social

> aspect, for my child, more than the academic aspect.

>

> And, visuals merely support learning. There is a lot of research to

> substantiate that. Some of our kids need the visual because they can

> process that faster than the vocal words and sometimes the words are

> too much. We talk too much for them sometimes.

>

> And, I agree that learning should be individualized. Not easy but yes,

> a great ultimate goal.

>

> *From:* Heifferon

>

> *Sent:* Friday, May 29, 2009 10:17 PM

>

> *To:* sList <mailto:sList >

>

> *Subject:* RE: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> I think we spend too much time on the non academic areas and not

> enough time on academics. The system is to short sighted by neglecting

> reading, writing and arithmetic. Visual clues are a great teacher but

> if the child can vocalize what he wants, drop the visual clues. All

> children are different. We should take a closer look at what the child

> knows instead of stressing what we think he needs. This is the

> downfall of programs that neglect differences.

>

> Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > > >

> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> > Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> > that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> > programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> > we want to move.

> > > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> > according to another post...

> > > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > > Thank you so much

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

June 1, 2009

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

wrote:

> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> then

> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> Using

> reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> of

> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

>> your first cup of java?

>>

>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isnâ€™t the same as using ABA. And

>> all

>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesnâ€™t use 15 minute blerp

>> s in

>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

>> to say they donâ€™t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>> Tina, I think what you said was good.

>>

June 1, 2009

That makes 3 of us....Tina I am making more coffee if you would like some more.

To: "sList " <sList >Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 12:34:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I am more just passionate about autism. As are you.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley <_Farley@ yahoo.com> wrote:> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and > then> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA. > Using> reinforcement- based

practices over punishment-based practices whenever> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function > of> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.>> Heifferon wrote:>>>>>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is>> your first cup of java?>>>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isnâ€™t the same as using ABA. And >> all>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR>> Program is

suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesnâ€™t use 15 minute blerp >> s in>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths>> to say they donâ€™t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.>>>> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM>> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re:

Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> Tina, I think what you said was good.>>

June 1, 2009

Thank you for listing and dissecting those ABA Principles for

me. So, all these borrowed principles are found in a session where the teacher

has a group of students and tries them out. Keeping in mind that Lovaas

suggested 30 to 40 hours per week. How many are in the session and how long is

the session. What can be accomplished in 15 minutes?

Here is a link you can check out:

http://www.lovaas.com/

Actually teachers shouldnâ€™t be doing anything regarding behavior.

It is outside their domain. You can have all the degrees in Education and that may

qualify you to teach but autism and its manifestations are part of the

Behavioristâ€™s Domain. And although the therapist can be trained to do the

trials it needs to be supervised by the appropriate certified behaviorist. I

donâ€™t mean to be vulgar but the educator gets involved and screws everything up

because he feels his education qualifies him to be a behaviorist. The educator

has the wrong course study.

And if I may ask, how many psychologists are certified to

supervise this area and how many do?

From:

sList [mailto:sList ] On Behalf

Of Tina Terri Austin

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 12:35 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

wrote:

> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> then

> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> Using

> reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> of

> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

>

> Heifferon wrote:

>>

>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

>> your first cup of java?

>>

>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isnâ€™t the same as using ABA. And

>> all

>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesnâ€™t use 15 minute blerp

>> s in

>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

>> to say they donâ€™t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

>>

>> *From:* sList

>> [mailto:sList ]

*On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

>> *To:* sList

>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>>

>> Tina, I think what you said was good.

>>

June 1, 2009

I really wasn't referring to severely autistic children. We need to recognize

the spectrum for it is. I don't think you have to choose between the child never

learning to wipe his behind and making change. The STAR Program needs to be

flexible, a problem most programs donâ€™t have. Remember we are talking about a

spectrum and not everyone can or should be placed in the same mold as everyone

else. I'm saying if the child has the potential for academics there should be a

shift from a day that is predominantly occupational therapy. The flexibility

isn't there. Don't tell me it should be resolved in the IEP because the majority

rules and you are outnumbered. Of course you can take it to due process and find

yourself in front of a judge (state employee) who may directly or indirectly be

thinking about furthering his career and really doesn't want to rock the boat.

There is the appeal process... who has the money for this crap? Amen.

Moving Up from Baudhuin...

> > > >

> > > > What's the process to make the change? We're looking into a

> > Complex Place and I know we could discuss it in an IEP meeting, but is

> > that the only way? I would like to talk to someone about the other

> > programs and tour some of the schools before letting the school know

> > we want to move.

> > > > Any ideas for a Complex Place in Weston? Not very promising

> > according to another post...

> > > > Also, am I stuck with my home school? It's Eagle Point, and I've

> > never heard anything about it, so I just don't know...

> > > > Thank you so much

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

> ------------------------------------

>

June 1, 2009

You raise some issues that have been on my mind a lot lately. And, I can

honestly say I have more questions and tentative ideas than I have

answers at this point.

I can't speak to what goes on in Broward schools, or in Florida teacher

education programs--I just moved here from Central Texas in February,

and I lived there for a little less than 18 years.

Some special ed programs do a better job than others of equipping their

teacher trainees with adequate behavioral knowledge to work with

students with autism. You won't get any disagreement from me there.

My encounters with curriculum & instruction and with educational

psychology were very frustrating--I went into several courses in these

departments as an avid behaviorist and heard pretty much everyone in the

room but me (including the instructor!) talk about behaviorism as being

passe, primitive, and unenlightened--they spoke, instead, of cognitive

theory, philosophies where the learner " constructs " his/her knowledge,

and the techniques that follow from these theories and philosophies.

It's not so much that you teach the child the principles I mentioned;

rather, you use those principles TO teach the child. So, as I reflect

more on the conversation over the past few days, I'm thinking that your

issue is with WHAT children with autism are taught. So, at its core, a

curriculum and instruction issue? I think of the instruction, or

teaching, part as involving the teacher's/therapist's/behavior analyst's

knowledge of ABA principles and how to apply them. I think of the

curriculum, or knowledge and skills part, as involving decisions about

WHAT knowledge and WHICH skills the student should have, and how that

progress should be broken down and sequenced.

I'll have to appeal to any psychologists out there to speak to the issue

of how well different courses of study do/don't prepare them for

behavioral intervention. Anyone? Anyone?

I hesitate to say that ALL educators have the wrong course study. And, I

do worry sometimes about some of the BCBAs and BCaBAs out there who

don't have at least SOME working knowledge of education and of

developmental psychology --I worry that they are at a disadvantage when

they go into early childhood and public school settings, because they

can't always translate their ideas into terms that other professionals

can get on-board with, particularly if those professionals have a bias

against behaviorism. I also think that having such knowledge of other

disciplines and professions can help them apply their behavioral

knowledge more flexibly, rather than pushing intervention plans that

have technical adequacy but poor contextual fit. At least, this was my

experience--I think I became a better interventionist when I became more

receptive to the knowledge base not only of ABA but of speech &

language, early childhood/child development, and occupational therapy.

I better stop here--it's getting late, I'm tired, and I'm not sure I'm

making sense anymore.... But, for what they're worth, those are my

thoughts. Thanks for the response--I've enjoyed and been challenged (in

a good way!) by the conversation of these past several days!

Heifferon wrote:

>

> Thank you for listing and dissecting those ABA Principles for me. So,

> all these borrowed principles are found in a session where the teacher

> has a group of students and tries them out. Keeping in mind that

> Lovaas suggested 30 to 40 hours per week. How many are in the session

> and how long is the session. What can be accomplished in 15 minutes?

>

> Here is a link you can check out:

>

> http://www.lovaas.com/ <http://www.lovaas.com/>

>

> Actually teachers shouldn’t be doing anything regarding behavior. It

> is outside their domain. You can have all the degrees in Education and

> that may qualify you to teach but autism and its manifestations are

> part of the Behaviorist’s Domain. And although the therapist can be

> trained to do the trials it needs to be supervised by the appropriate

> certified behaviorist. I don’t mean to be vulgar but the educator gets

> involved and screws everything up because he feels his education

> qualifies him to be a behaviorist. The educator has the wrong course

> study.

>

> And if I may ask, how many psychologists are certified to supervise

> this area and how many do?

>

> *From:* sList

> [mailto:sList ] *On Behalf Of *Tina Terri Austin

> *Sent:* Monday, June 01, 2009 12:35 PM

> *To:* sList

> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

>

> Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I

> am more just passionate about autism. As are you.

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley

> <_Farley@... <mailto:_Farley%40yahoo.com>> wrote:

>

> > We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based

> > interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and

> > then

> > re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across

> > individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is

> > using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing

> > behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is

> > using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA.

> > Using

> > reinforcement-based practices over punishment-based practices whenever

> > possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible

> > conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function

> > of

> > behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You

> > can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA

> > from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those

> > principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than

> > just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.

> >

> > Heifferon wrote:

> >>

> >> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is

> >> your first cup of java?

> >>

> >> Utilizing the principles of ABA isn’t the same as using ABA. And

> >> all

> >> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR

> >> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesn’t use 15 minute blerp

> >> s in

> >> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than

> >> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths

> >> to say they don’t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.

> >>

> >> *From:* sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> [mailto:sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg

> >> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM

> >> *To:* sList

> <mailto:sList%40yahoogroups.com>

> >> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

> >>

> >> Tina, I think what you said was good.

> >>

>

June 2, 2009

Yes, please! We should have a coffee group to discuss these things!

From: Wihlborg

Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 2:20 PM

To: sList

Subject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

That makes 3 of us....Tina I am making more coffee if you would like some more.

From: Tina Terri Austin <austintandtbellsouth (DOT) net>To: "sList " <sList >Sent: Monday, June 1, 2009 12:34:52 PMSubject: Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

Hi , my first cup of java is usually between 4 and 5 A.M. :-) I am more just passionate about autism. As are you.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 31, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Farley <_Farley@ yahoo.com> wrote:> We use ABA /by applying the principles/ in the form of ABA-based> interventions, taking and evaluating data during that process, and > then> re-applying that process to see if the same outcomes replicate across> individuals, across settings, and/or across behaviors. Doing FBAs is> using ABA. Differentially reinforcing behaviors is using ABA. Bringing> behaviors under stimulus control is using ABA. Doing error analysis is> using ABA. Promoting generalization and maintenance is using ABA. > Using> reinforcement- based practices over punishment-based practices whenever> possible, and knowing why this is one of the guidelines of responsible> conduct for behavior analysts, is using ABA. Discerning the function > of> behaviors and designing function-based interventions is using ABA. You> can't divorce a clear and deep understanding of the principles of ABA> from competent, ethical practice of the techniques based on those> principles! As one researcher put it, ABA practice is about more than> just common sense and a grab-bag of tricks.>> Heifferon wrote:>>>>>> Boy, that Tina writes so much so early in the morning. What time is>> your first cup of java?>>>> Utilizing the principles of ABA isnâ€™t the same as using ABA. And >> all>> the research is on ABA itself and not its principles. Also STAR>> Program is suppose to use ABA. And ABA doesnâ€™t use 15 minute blerp >> s in>> its principles. As someone pointed out something is better than>> nothing. Or is it? And the school districts will go to great lengths>> to say they donâ€™t use ABA. They want their cake and eat it too.>>>> *From:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> [mailto:sList@ yahoogroups. com] *On Behalf Of * Wihlborg>> *Sent:* Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:01 PM>> *To:* sList@ yahoogroups. com>> *Subject:* Re: Re: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place>>>>>>>>>> Tina, I think what you said was good.>>

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RE: Moving Up Baudhuin vs Complex Place

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