Re: MON morning

[Guest guest]

Jim, & all ...

Thanks for the update re: recent threads. My feeling ... it's a hard old

world and he's a big boy (person) like the rest of us. Controversy follows

original thinkers like a stink ... just ask Copernicus or Ed Poe.

Have realized maybe I don't belong here. Two points:

1. is this group's emphasis on recovering from 12-step recovery?

2. rather, is it recovery via non-12-step means?

Quite a difference in my opinion. The first would be backward-looking; the

second, forward-looking.

If answer is (1), please just tell me and I'll leave with thanks for your

courtesy and best wishes.

If (2), here's a topic ... does use of pharmaceuticals as an adjunct to

recovery necessarily buy into the " disease " model of the condition itself?

That is, can I be (oh I hate this phrase) " self-empowered " and still take the

meds I seem to need?

Thanks again, all - Bill (in Pittsburgh)

[Guest guest]

....

I am not one who thinks that 'looking backwards' is particularly

worthwhile..except to acknowledge past mistakes (and triumphs...:-)), to

learn from them, and then to move one. If anything, I think this practice

encourages stagnation, and does little to promote 'recovery' except in a very

limited, narrow-minded, negative way.

However, here is the formal description of the group:

>>Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the

groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine. It is also for

those who have a loved one caught up in the step religion. The focus of

discussion is on sharing experience with and information on the step groups.

Perhaps our most important function is to provide the first place where many

can dare be critical and not be accused by a " unanimous majority " of groupers

of suffering from one " defect of character " or another for doing so. Although

not the focus here, information on alternative organizations and methods of

resolving drinking problems are available for the asking. <<

It appears that 'forward looking' is tolerated, but is not the 'focus'.

So, it looks like we may both be 'in the wrong place'...

j_stillwater@... writes:

> -- In 12-step-freeegroups, PITNews1@a... wrote:

> > Jim, & all ...

> >

> > Thanks for the update re: recent threads. My feeling ... it's a

> hard

> old

> > world and he's a big boy (person) like the rest of us. Controversy

> follows

> > original thinkers like a stink ... just ask Copernicus or Ed Poe.

> >

> > Have realized maybe I don't belong here. Two points:

> >

> > 1. is this group's emphasis on recovering from 12-step recovery?

> > 2. rather, is it recovery via non-12-step means?

>

> From the main egroups page on 12 step free:

> " The focus of discussion is on sharing experience with and

> information

> on the step groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide

> the first place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by

> a " unanimous majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of

> character " or another for doing so. Although not the focus here,

> information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving

> drinking problems are available for the asking. "

>

> > Quite a difference in my opinion. The first would be

> backward-looking; the second, forward-looking.

>

> Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it, as they

> say.

[Guest guest]

Judith, Ellen ...

Thanks to you both. I read the group statement of purpose when I joined, but

guess I was asking for an interpretation.

I have a problem with that ... " those who ignore the past ... " stuff. It

sounds good, coming from the mouth of a Holocaust survivor, but doesn't

really hold up.

1. It assumes that the past is reproducible; it is not

2. It imputes to the steppers the same levels of talent and malice as the

Nazis; this isn't valid, in my opinion

3. Those Nazis came to YOUR door; these nazis you have to seek out on your

own

I know the larger point is that steppers have hijacked the recovery industry,

courts, non-profit sector and all aspects of substance abuse as they impinge

on the daily lives of abusers and former abusers.

I can tell you from direct experience that excellent results are being

obtained by groups like LifeRing Secular Recovery and SMART Recovery -- both

in face-to-face and on-line and web site applications.

Also, where I live, there a several vigorous homegrown outfits who are

achieving good results. These usually are AA home groups gone " maverick. "

Finally, my work in the industry shows me that professionals may nod toward

the primacy of AA/NA (out of fear, I suppose); but when you REALLY ask,

there's a great deal of excitement and help available with purely medical and

purely holistic systems, as well as hybrids of both. Of possible interest,

some of these newer things (I won't call them " programs " ) actually stress

" graduation " (usually after 1 year) and embrace the adjective " recovered. "

OK. So maybe I'm sort of in the right group, and will continue to read and

post with enthusiasm.

- Bill (in Pittsburgh)

[Guest guest]

Bill,

Alternative recovery programs are often discussed here...and very

enthusiastically, I might add.

But, the main thrust, as I have seen it, is to discuss all aspects of the

12-step programs, including how

>>steppers have hijacked the recovery industry,

courts, non-profit sector and all aspects of substance abuse as they impinge

on the daily lives of abusers and former abusers<<

I (and others) have also attempted to discuss the notion that 'recovery' is

not really necessary, as addiction is not an illness, but is merely a bad

choice. Please note that I am saying 'notion' here, and not 'fact'. Thus,

thinking such as that presented by (ummm...Szasz) has been brought into

discussion. Unfortunately, because some have vigorously pointed out, and

have shown concern about, possible connections to alleged unsavory

organizations, it has been difficult to discuss this thinking in respect to

alternative ways of viewing the disease-model, and any 'recovery' that may

need to occur as a result of being brainswashed by this concept.

Of course, there are those here who would say (and have said) that

discussions such as these are off-topic. So, we get back to the same point.

Glad to hear that you will continue to enthusiastically post. I am not sure

I will do the same.

Ellen

PITNews1@... writes:

> I can tell you from direct experience that excellent results are being

> obtained by groups like LifeRing Secular Recovery and SMART Recovery --

both

>

> in face-to-face and on-line and web site applications.

>

> Also, where I live, there a several vigorous homegrown outfits who are

> achieving good results. These usually are AA home groups gone " maverick. "

>

> Finally, my work in the industry shows me that professionals may nod

toward

> the primacy of AA/NA (out of fear, I suppose); but when you REALLY ask,

> there's a great deal of excitement and help available with purely medical

> and

> purely holistic systems, as well as hybrids of both. Of possible interest,

> some of these newer things (I won't call them " programs " ) actually stress

> " graduation " (usually after 1 year) and embrace the adjective " recovered. "

>

> OK. So maybe I'm sort of in the right group, and will continue to read and

> post with enthusiasm.

>

> - Bill (in Pittsburgh)

>

[Guest guest]

Bill,

> Jim, & all ...

>

> Thanks for the update re: recent threads. My feeling ... it's a hard old

> world and he's a big boy (person) like the rest of us. Controversy follows

> original thinkers like a stink ... just ask Copernicus or Ed Poe.

>

> Have realized maybe I don't belong here. Two points:

>

> 1. is this group's emphasis on recovering from 12-step recovery?

> 2. rather, is it recovery via non-12-step means?

I am too new to be able to answer this. I get the feeling that it is both

and more. Ken R. would be the man to ask.

> Quite a difference in my opinion. The first would be backward-looking; the

> second, forward-looking.

>

> If (2), here's a topic ... does use of pharmaceuticals as an adjunct to

> recovery necessarily buy into the " disease " model of the condition itself?

> That is, can I be (oh I hate this phrase) " self-empowered " and still take

the

> meds I seem to need?

IMO, absolutely! What meds are you on, or have you tried? What are the

reasons for taking them? How have they helped you?

Jim

> Thanks again, all - Bill (in Pittsburgh)

>

[Guest guest]

Hi jan...

Thought I'd jump in here since I, too, am from the Pittsburgh area...from

Sewickley. Have only been here 1/12 years, but love it. Much better for me

than NY.

Glad to meet you!!!

Ellen

j.m.young@... writes:

> Hey Bill, it is just grand to see that another Pittsburgher is on

> this list. I live up about 20 miles north of town (lin Park

> Borough).

>

> I just moved back a year and 1/2 ago. Born and raised in Pittsburgh

> then moved to Colorado in '75 and near ton, WV in '89. I

> started going to AA in '91 down in WV and stopped completely upon

> moving back to Pittsburgh.

>

> My gripes with AA tend toward the more personal rather than medical.

>

> And hi everyone else, haven't been reading here in over a month -

> been hooked on other things. Good to see the same names and some new

> ones.

>

> jan

[Guest guest]

> Jim, & all ...

>

> Thanks for the update re: recent threads. My feeling ... it's a

hard

old

> world and he's a big boy (person) like the rest of us. Controversy

follows

> original thinkers like a stink ... just ask Copernicus or Ed Poe.

>

> Have realized maybe I don't belong here. Two points:

>

> 1. is this group's emphasis on recovering from 12-step recovery?

> 2. rather, is it recovery via non-12-step means?

From the main egroups page on 12 step free:

" The focus of discussion is on sharing experience with and

information

on the step groups. Perhaps our most important function is to provide

the first place where many can dare be critical and not be accused by

a " unanimous majority " of groupers of suffering from one " defect of

character " or another for doing so. Although not the focus here,

information on alternative organizations and methods of resolving

drinking problems are available for the asking. "

> Quite a difference in my opinion. The first would be

backward-looking; the second, forward-looking.

Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it, as they

say.

> If answer is (1), please just tell me and I'll leave with thanks

for

your courtesy and best wishes.

>

> If (2), here's a topic ... does use of pharmaceuticals as an

adjunct

to

> recovery necessarily buy into the " disease " model of the condition

itself?

> That is, can I be (oh I hate this phrase) " self-empowered " and

still

take the

> meds I seem to need?

What do you think? Do the meds improve or diminish your sense of

control over your life? I think questions of medication are best

answered by MDs and the individual considering taking the medication.

Best of luck--

judith

[Guest guest]

Hey Bill, it is just grand to see that another Pittsburgher is on

this list. I live up about 20 miles north of town (lin Park

Borough).

I just moved back a year and 1/2 ago. Born and raised in Pittsburgh

then moved to Colorado in '75 and near ton, WV in '89. I

started going to AA in '91 down in WV and stopped completely upon

moving back to Pittsburgh.

My gripes with AA tend toward the more personal rather than medical.

And hi everyone else, haven't been reading here in over a month -

been hooked on other things. Good to see the same names and some new

ones.

jan

> post with enthusiasm.

>

> - Bill (in Pittsburgh)