Re: Bill in 1949--AA's 60-80 Percent Dropout Rate

[Guest guest]

At 06:36 AM 10/14/00 +0000, you wrote:

> From Bill 's 1949 address to the American Psychiatric

>Association:

[snip]

> Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally

>driven back to us, often years later.

[snip]

Does this say what I think it says? He *knew* that most

people exposed to AA start to drink more heavily, and

thought it was a good way to force them back in?

Wow.

[Guest guest]

> > From Bill 's 1949 address to the American Psychiatric

> >Association:

>

> [snip]

>

> > Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally

> >driven back to us, often years later.

>

> [snip]

>

> Does this say what I think it says? He *knew* that most

> people exposed to AA start to drink more heavily, and

> thought it was a good way to force them back in?

>

> Wow.

>

>

The iatrogenic (induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or by

medical treatment or diagnostic procedures) role of AA in alcohohlism

is even more clearly stated in THE 12 STEPS AND THE 12 TRADITIONS...

(p. 23)

******************************************************************

....they were joined by young people who were scarcely more than

potential alcoholics. Since Step One requires an admission that our

lives have become unmanageable, how could people such as these take

this Step?

It was obviously necessary to raise the bottom the rest of us had

hit to the point where it would hit them. By going back in our own

drinking histories, we could show that years before we realized it

were out of control, that our drinking even then was no mere habit,

that it was indeed the beginning of a fatal progession. To the

doubters we could say, " Perhaps you're not al alcoholic after all.

Why don't you try some more controlled drinking, bearing in mind

meanwhile what we have told you about alcoholism? " This attitude

brought immediate and practical results. It was then discovered that

when one alcoholic had planted in the mind of another the true nature

of his malady, that person could never be the same again.

*********************************************************************

[Guest guest]

yea, and it supports what of AA critics have always said, that AA

uses the alcoholics vulnerability to inject their belief system and

uses that same vulnerability to encourage those who doubt to go

back out and believe they will destroy themselves until they are

ready to surrender, any cult would be proud of the machine bill

wilson invented.

the difference is in how he perceives what he is doing. bill

considers agnostics to be

: " prejudiced " , evasive , biased , unreasonable , spiritually

obsolete ,ignorant ,touchy ,deluded , antagonistic , vain ,illogical

" less " sane ,dishonest ,narrow in vision/backward thinking

" soft and mushy " thinkers ,worshippers of " people, sentiment,

things, money, and ourselves " for not being accepting of a god

belief system. he felt they needed to go back out and drink until

they were " beat into a state of reasonableness " . he thinks he is

helping alcholics by beating up on their agnosticism.

i had this done to me when i was in AA. i left and drank they

worse than i did when i came in, which had been only 17 days

before. i drank in ways that never even occurred to be prior to AA,

because i was told " this is what " we " do " and i bought in to that i

was powerless to prevent it from becoming progressively

worse. this started me on the worse, most expensive, reckless,

destructive 6 month binge of my life. it all started because i

hadn't been worthy of sponsorship because i didn't go to

meetings everyday, even though i was sober a record 17 days.

he thinks he is helping them to overcome their barrier (their

non-belief) which is preventing them from discovering the grace

of god. sobriety is

a side effect of that primary goal. that people fail to see this as a

religious cult which is morally bankrupt, lacks self awareness

and is destructive is incomprehensible to me.

[Guest guest]

.. It was then discovered that

> when one alcoholic had planted in the mind of another the true

nature

> of his malady, that person could never be the same again.

>

yea, try to moderate, but dont forget your powerless when you try

[Guest guest]

Good God,

This is absolutely f*cking incredible. It's all in the book! as the

AA's say. Yah, read AA literature with an open mind and you really

will see the woods and not just the trees!

P.

> > > From Bill 's 1949 address to the American Psychiatric

> > >Association:

> >

> > [snip]

> >

> > > Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally

> > >driven back to us, often years later.

> >

> > [snip]

> >

> > Does this say what I think it says? He *knew* that most

> > people exposed to AA start to drink more heavily, and

> > thought it was a good way to force them back in?

> >

> > Wow.

> >

> >

>

>

>

> The iatrogenic (induced inadvertently by a physician or surgeon or

by

> medical treatment or diagnostic procedures) role of AA in

alcohohlism

> is even more clearly stated in THE 12 STEPS AND THE 12 TRADITIONS...

> (p. 23)

>

> ******************************************************************

> ...they were joined by young people who were scarcely more than

> potential alcoholics. Since Step One requires an admission that our

> lives have become unmanageable, how could people such as these take

> this Step?

> It was obviously necessary to raise the bottom the rest of us

had

> hit to the point where it would hit them. By going back in our own

> drinking histories, we could show that years before we realized it

> were out of control, that our drinking even then was no mere habit,

> that it was indeed the beginning of a fatal progession. To the

> doubters we could say, " Perhaps you're not al alcoholic after all.

> Why don't you try some more controlled drinking, bearing in mind

> meanwhile what we have told you about alcoholism? " This attitude

> brought immediate and practical results. It was then discovered

that

> when one alcoholic had planted in the mind of another the true

nature

> of his malady, that person could never be the same again.

>

*********************************************************************

[Guest guest]

Hi all

Research is showing iatrogenic effects from teen NA-based drug

programs too. I also believe the same can happen in eating disorder

programs like OA, as ppl learning " bulimic techniques " like binging

and purging. This is another reason not to condone coercion to

secular groups like LSR - like AA, they might sprread the disease

they

are trying to cure.

P.

> yea, and it supports what of AA critics have always said, that AA

> uses the alcoholics vulnerability to inject their belief system and

> uses that same vulnerability to encourage those who doubt to go

> back out and believe they will destroy themselves until they are

> ready to surrender, any cult would be proud of the machine bill

> wilson invented.

>

> the difference is in how he perceives what he is doing. bill

> considers agnostics to be

> : " prejudiced " , evasive , biased , unreasonable , spiritually

> obsolete ,ignorant ,touchy ,deluded , antagonistic , vain

,illogical

> " less " sane ,dishonest ,narrow in vision/backward thinking

> " soft and mushy " thinkers ,worshippers of " people, sentiment,

> things, money, and ourselves " for not being accepting of a god

> belief system. he felt they needed to go back out and drink until

> they were " beat into a state of reasonableness " . he thinks he is

> helping alcholics by beating up on their agnosticism.

>

> i had this done to me when i was in AA. i left and drank they

> worse than i did when i came in, which had been only 17 days

> before. i drank in ways that never even occurred to be prior to AA,

> because i was told " this is what " we " do " and i bought in to that i

> was powerless to prevent it from becoming progressively

> worse. this started me on the worse, most expensive, reckless,

> destructive 6 month binge of my life. it all started because i

> hadn't been worthy of sponsorship because i didn't go to

> meetings everyday, even though i was sober a record 17 days.

>

> he thinks he is helping them to overcome their barrier (their

> non-belief) which is preventing them from discovering the grace

> of god. sobriety is

> a side effect of that primary goal. that people fail to see this as

a

> religious cult which is morally bankrupt, lacks self awareness

> and is destructive is incomprehensible to me.

[Guest guest]

" But the majority have powerful rationalizations to be broken... "

Pure cult evidence here. AA is irrational.

>From: stuart323@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Bill in 1949--AA's 60-80 Percent Dropout

>Rate

>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 06:36:09 -0000

>

>From Bill 's 1949 address to the American Psychiatric

>Association:

>

>Of alcoholics who stay with us and really try, 50% get sober at once

>and stay that way, 25% do so after some relapses and the remainder

>usually show improvement. But many problem drinkers do quit A.A.

>after a brief contact, maybe three or four out of five. Some are too

>psychopathic or damaged. But the majority have powerful

>rationalizations yet to be broken down. Exactly this does happen

>providing they get what A.A. calls a " good exposure, " on first

>contact. Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally

>driven back to us, often years later. They tell us that they had to

>return; it was A.A, or else. They had learned about alcoholism from

>alcoholics; they were hit harder than they had known. Such cases

>leave us the agreeable impression that half our original exposures

>will eventually return, most of them to recover. So we just

>indoctrinate the newcomer.

>(http://historyofaa.com/billw/societyofaa.htm)

>

>*********************************************************************

>This is worthy of caps. According to the founder of AA, SIXTY TO

>EIGHTY PERCENT OF ALCOHOLICS QUIT AA AFTER A BRIEF CONTACT.

>

>Six years later when writing the foreword to the second edition,

> not only deletes his observation about AA's poor retention

>rate among first time prospects, he also makes a couple of other

>changes in order to paint a rosier picture of AA. First, " alcoholics

>who stay with us and really try " becomes " alcoholics who came to AA

>really tried. " Second, he increases estimate of the portion of drop-

>out who return to AA from half to two-thirds.

>

>Another interesting point is that in the same talk says

>that " During 1949, we expect 20,000 permanent recoveries, at least.

>Half of these will be medium or mild cases (average age about 36) a

>fairly recent development. "

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Right. It doesn't work, they will drink more, and come back.

WHAT????????

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Bill in 1949--AA's 60-80 Percent Dropout

>Rate

>Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 08:56:13 -0400

>

>At 06:36 AM 10/14/00 +0000, you wrote:

> > From Bill 's 1949 address to the American Psychiatric

> >Association:

>

>[snip]

>

> > Alcohol then builds such a hot fire that they are finally

> >driven back to us, often years later.

>

>[snip]

>

>Does this say what I think it says? He *knew* that most

>people exposed to AA start to drink more heavily, and

>thought it was a good way to force them back in?

>

>Wow.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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