Re: Leave anytime you want!

[Guest guest]

...

This is where the word " cult " becomes problematic. You CAN leave AA whenever

you want.

I prefer to see AA as mind manipulation or brain-washing (if that expression

is still permitted). Groups that are really good at this have no need for

fences or locked doors. After enough exposure, " wanting " to leave is no

simple matter.

I believe the root of this list's concern is for people who CAN'T actually

leave whenever they choose because they've been ordered by a court or the

human resources director or some other authority figure to attend so many AA

meetings. Might even be an irate & fed-up spouse or parent.

The point is, people find their way to AA under duress ... and that's when

the damage can be done that can last a lifetime. Eventually you CAN leave,

but you may well be a very vulnerable person if you do.

Just my little idea ... Bill (in Pittsburgh)

[Guest guest]

Leave anytime you want!

>

> AA non cult defense " Leave anytime you want. "

>

> Discuss if you will.

> --

> Regards,

>

> B

Uusually that is accompanied by a statement along the lines of " we'll gladly

refund you misery " .

I watched a video of Jim talking to cult members who were looking to

leave the compund Guyana for a short visit to relatives. I don't remember

his exact words but they were similar to the line that AAers use. The cult

members stayed probably because of the guilt they felt towards leaving

, who talked about how much he had provided for them. They likely also

felt a little fear at leaving the confines of their familiar surrounding to

go off into what Jone's descibed as a land of the " nonchosen ones " (again

those weren't his exact words).

[Guest guest]

Re: Leave anytime you want!

>

> ...

>

> This is where the word " cult " becomes problematic. You CAN leave AA

whenever

> you want.

>

> I prefer to see AA as mind manipulation or brain-washing (if that

expression

> is still permitted). Groups that are really good at this have no need for

> fences or locked doors. After enough exposure, " wanting " to leave is no

> simple matter.

>

> I believe the root of this list's concern is for people who CAN'T actually

> leave whenever they choose because they've been ordered by a court or the

> human resources director or some other authority figure to attend so many

AA

> meetings. Might even be an irate & fed-up spouse or parent.

>

> The point is, people find their way to AA under duress ... and that's when

> the damage can be done that can last a lifetime. Eventually you CAN leave,

> but you may well be a very vulnerable person if you do.

>

> Just my little idea ... Bill (in Pittsburgh)

>

I don't agree with this. Being court ordered isn't necessarry for a person

to be trapped in AA. In fact, that is one of the cult like weapons that

AAers have. I often heard people say to those who questioned things " No one

sent for you " or " nobody gets to AA by mistake " . The message of

powerlessness in AA can be very subtle. Sure, anyone can leave AA but not

easily if they are convinced from AA dogma that to do so will bring death,

jails, or mental instutions. Perhaps it is easier for someone who has been

sober for a few years to realize that they don't actually need AA to

survive. But some people, myself included, drink for years and years while

continuing to fall back to AA. How the hell could we just leave AA if we

believed that we were doomed if we did so?

I had a very difficult time leaving AA and I can honestly say that I feel

much more freedom from having done that than from having quit drinking.

[Guest guest]

> AA non cult defense " Leave anytime you want. "

>

> Discuss if you will.

AAs are often more than willing to tell you that you are free to

leave the Program--but as they say this there is always an

implication that you would be a fool to actually do so.

Sometimes it is in the addition of the phrase " we'll gladly refund

you all of your misery. " Sometimes it is simply in the openly false

jocularity with which that statement is made.

I had an oldtimer tell me that I was free to leave, once, before a

meeting. Later, when it was his turn to speak, he went on and on

about how grateful he was to God for the Program, yadda yadda yadda,

and then began to talk about how " some people just don't get it " and

lack sufficient gratitude and want to go try it on their own, only to

die drunk or crawl back to AA in misery, a harsh lesson learned. The

whole time he was saying this, he was turned to look at me, and

others noticed--they started looking at me as well. His entire

message to me was that I was free to go, but that I would certainly

be doomed if I went. While he and the group made no attempt to

physically restrain me from leaving AA, they did attempt to instill

enough fear in me to prevent me from going.

Even after I'd been gone awhile I would encounter AA members in

coffeehouses or on the street, and they often would give me the same

critical, appraising glances when they said " we haven't seen you at

meetings in a long time. " Before parting, there would be

reassurances that I could always come back to the Program when I

needed it, and the emphasis was on *when*, not *if*.

AA doesn't need to use physical means of dominating and retaining

members--they implant the idea of the progressive, fatal disease in a

vulnerable person who is already filled with remorse, shame and self-

loathing, and then they celebrate that person for having made such a

mess of his life. Where else on Earth can you be a complete drunken

fuckup and get positive attention for it, even decades after you quit

drinking?

Of course, the theme that nobody stays sober without AA and nobody in

AA stays sober on their own is repeated endlessly. What Program

dogma does is put a shackle on the problem drinker's mind--I am

forever diseased, and AA is my one and only hope--and then convinces

him or her that the shackle is a gift from God, a lovely thing that

he or she can wear with pride. To want to try a different approach,

or to turn away from the AA-disease model entirely is to refuse a

gift from God--a stupid, selfish, immoral, and even suicidal act.

Alright, it's noon--time to get off the damn computer and get some

work done...

Cheers,

.

[Guest guest]

I think this defense is based on the erroneous notion that ALL cults

are coercive. Perhaps this is true of the cults that are labeled

" destructive, " but I doubt it is true of all of the wacky religions

that have been called " cults. " It all depends on your definition of

" cult. " Certain celebrities are called " cult figures, " but anyone who

wants to stop worshipping Elvis, for instance, is free to do so at

any time.

[Guest guest]

At 08:44 PM 9/15/00 -0000, Jim Hankins wrote:

>

>I think this defense is based on the erroneous notion that ALL cults

>are coercive. Perhaps this is true of the cults that are labeled

> " destructive, " but I doubt it is true of all of the wacky religions

>that have been called " cults. " It all depends on your definition of

> " cult. " Certain celebrities are called " cult figures, " but anyone who

>wants to stop worshipping Elvis, for instance, is free to do so at

>any time.

That's a different meaning of the word cult, which is much less

emotionally charged. Practically no one believes that anyone is coerced

to worship Elvis. I see five definitions at <http://www.m-w.com>; I can

see where AA fits into the first four, and Elvis (and/or those who admire

him) fit much better with the fifth definition.

As I see it, when we discuss cults here we mean groups that have

coercive beliefs, and in this meaning we exclude groups of people who

choose their beliefs of their own free will.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Leave anytime you want!

<snip>

> > Even after I'd been gone awhile I would encounter AA members in

> > coffeehouses or on the street, and they often would give me the same

> > critical, appraising glances when they said " we haven't seen you at

> > meetings in a long time. " Before parting, there would be

> > reassurances that I could always come back to the Program when I

> > needed it, and the emphasis was on *when*, not *if*.

>

> I run across AAers also who show that kind of reaction. For me its an

> awkward situation but I don't feel anywhere near the doubt that I felt

when

> I first left AA. Now I think of that statement about inviting me back to

AA

> " when I'm ready " as being about the same as a circus performer inviting me

> to be shot out of a cannon or put in the lions' cage " when I'm ready " .

No

> thanks!

After finals of my third semester in law school, I went to a meeting for

the first time in a couple of months. One of the more vocal guys cornered me

afterwards and inquired how I was doing. I said I was tired and stressed,

but otherwise doing well.

After some hemming and hawing, he finally admitted he was concerned

about my " relapse. " I tried to be patient as I explained that, although

some people would think becoming a lawyer was worse than being a drunk, I

had been attending classes four nights a week and wasn't drinking.

He seemed truly disappointed that he couldn't share some great wisdom

with some poor, bedraggled soul, and I later heard from a number of people

that he was spreading the word that I had " gone out. "

I later heard him express amazement that, after attending at least five

meetings a week for a decade, he missed five straight days due to family

obligations and survived. Before that great revelation, he must not have

understood that I could actually do something to improve my life and not

start drinking again -- all without engaging in the endless circle-jerk that

is AA.

That was when I realized most steppers had no life and decided to get

the heck out of there.

Bob

[Guest guest]

Oh yes, you may leave anytime you want, if you are a

complete ingnorant loser who cannot " get this simple program " .

And certainly anyone who does leave must certainly expect

insanity, jail or death. Yes, you may leave if you are such a fool.

Because you are POWERLESS and booze will drive you back. And we,

the blessed, special folks who have the intelligence to

accept this simple program (you moron) will await your

return and welcome you with loving arms when you crawl back

back to us. Oh yes, go and explore whatever you must....

we will pray for you. AA is not the only answer, so go

and find out my dear child, and we will await your return.

We truly wish you the best, even when we know that there

is no true success outside of this program. Please

feel free to explore those ideas that you have even though

it is your disease talking to you.

If by some odd chance that you do remain sober, then you

certainly must be on a dry drunk. You are not " sober. "

And take our word for it, you are not happy. Because

you just cannot be happy without this simple program you

moron. But please remember that these ideas are suggestive

only and that you are free to leave. But it is highly

suggested to wear a parachute when you jump out of a plane

you moron. And please remember that we truly do love you,

because we know that it's just your disease telling you

to go. Did you know that it is every alcoholics dream to

be normal? You will never be normal, but if you want to

try, then go ahead, because we love you and will always be

here to welcome you back. You are free to leave, but as

you take your dying drunken breath, please remember that

it was such a simple program that some just cannot seem to

understand, and that we love you dearly.

Sue

>

>

> Re: Leave anytime you want!

>

>

> >

> > ...

> >

> > This is where the word " cult " becomes problematic. You CAN leave AA

>whenever

> > you want.

> >

> > I prefer to see AA as mind manipulation or brain-washing (if that

>expression

> > is still permitted). Groups that are really good at this have no need

>for

> > fences or locked doors. After enough exposure, " wanting " to leave is no

> > simple matter.

> >

> > I believe the root of this list's concern is for people who CAN'T

>actually

> > leave whenever they choose because they've been ordered by a court or

>the

> > human resources director or some other authority figure to attend so

>many

>AA

> > meetings. Might even be an irate & fed-up spouse or parent.

> >

> > The point is, people find their way to AA under duress ... and that's

>when

> > the damage can be done that can last a lifetime. Eventually you CAN

>leave,

> > but you may well be a very vulnerable person if you do.

> >

> > Just my little idea ... Bill (in Pittsburgh)

> >

>

>I don't agree with this. Being court ordered isn't necessarry for a person

>to be trapped in AA. In fact, that is one of the cult like weapons that

>AAers have. I often heard people say to those who questioned things " No

>one

>sent for you " or " nobody gets to AA by mistake " . The message of

>powerlessness in AA can be very subtle. Sure, anyone can leave AA but not

>easily if they are convinced from AA dogma that to do so will bring death,

>jails, or mental instutions. Perhaps it is easier for someone who has been

>sober for a few years to realize that they don't actually need AA to

>survive. But some people, myself included, drink for years and years while

>continuing to fall back to AA. How the hell could we just leave AA if we

>believed that we were doomed if we did so?

>

>I had a very difficult time leaving AA and I can honestly say that I feel

>much more freedom from having done that than from having quit drinking.

>

>

>

>

>

>

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