Guest guest Posted December 3, 2000 Report Share Posted December 3, 2000 > UNSUBSCRIBE > > I didnt know 12 step free is a front for the NRA!!! It most definitely is not. Stick around, those who object to it being that are needed! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2000 Report Share Posted December 3, 2000 Kayleigh.... It's my understanding that the modern Swiss Army is constituted similarly to the way the state militias were here during post-Revolutionary US. Every able bodied man (person?) was conscripted and kept his weapons and equipment ready at home, ready for call-up or for drill. The core of the active Army was over-officered and maintained special units like artillery, etc. In Switzerland, the individual is issued his weapon by the government and it remains government property. I believe that where the similarity ends. In early US the militiaman had to provide his own musket. I believe the issue of free commercial availablity of firearms became inextricably intertwined with the militia requirements and over the years has become distorted into the notion that any knucklehead who thinks he should be able to tote around a hogleg has a Consitutional right to do so. I doubt that in Switzerland, you could walk into a weekend gun show and pick up a small arsenal of semiautomatic handguns and rifles, .357 magnums, riot shotguns, kevlar body armor , etc, like you can here. Re: HELP!!! > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way Americans > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you evidently did > not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2000 Report Share Posted December 3, 2000 Indeed, I am told that in Switzerland you can walk into a coffee house and find guns hanging on the wall like we hang coats on the wall. I am told that every youth is taught marksmanship, and that the sight of a gun causes no more upset than the sight of a cat. > Kayleigh.... > > It's my understanding that the modern Swiss Army is constituted similarly to > the way the state militias were here during post-Revolutionary US. Every > able bodied man (person?) was conscripted and kept his weapons and equipment > ready at home, ready for call-up or for drill. The core of the active Army > was over-officered and maintained special units like artillery, etc. In > Switzerland, the individual is issued his weapon by the government and it > remains government property. I believe that where the similarity ends. > > In early US the militiaman had to provide his own musket. I believe the > issue of free commercial availablity of firearms became inextricably > intertwined with the militia requirements and over the years has become > distorted into the notion that any knucklehead who thinks he should be able > to tote around a hogleg has a Consitutional right to do so. > > I doubt that in Switzerland, you could walk into a weekend gun show and pick > up a small arsenal of semiautomatic handguns and rifles, .357 magnums, > riot shotguns, kevlar body armor , etc, like you can here. > > Re: HELP!!! > > > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way Americans > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you evidently did > > not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way Americans > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you evidently did > not. Why should I want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 Assuming that communication is the point of having a list, you should do that if you want to understand my point and respond intelligently, and if you don't want to bother to check it out, why respond? I am talking about culture. In cultures where guns are not objects of fear, people don't run amok with them. In cultures where alcohol is not the object of fear, people don't become alcoholic. It means something that the U.S. has one of the highest rates of alcohol abstention and yet one of the highest rates of alcoholism in the world. > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way Americans > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you evidently did > > not. > > Why should I want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 that gun control would not have prevented the situation that happened in Littleton. I didnt read that one, but I have something to add to that, the only ones that will be stopped from having access to guns are the law abiding citizens, the criminals will ALWAYS have access to them no matter how much "gun control" this country tries to adopt! My ex husband used to work in a pool hall and almost on a nightly basis there was at least one guy that used to come in to try and sell a handgun. Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 > > Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use guns > for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense against > tyrants, etc. I dontr believe the Swiss do it for the last reason. > > Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a polite, > peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to mess > with. <derisive laugh> Wht assault a natural fortress when these ppl are happy to do all your illegal international gold trade for you and bank all the hoards you've looted from the ppl you've murdered!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 Pete, I think you've got appallingly overexcited about this issue, and I don't know why. Certainly I would not suggest that a judge do his homework, but if he didn't, I could take it to appeals. Are you suggesting that you are a judge? In this case, even if I did look up the Swiss stuff for you, logic suggests you wouldn't read it. I'm only talking about swapping ideas. I don't know where you're coming from. > > > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way > > Americans > > > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you evidently > > did > > > > not. > > > > > > Why should I want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 > > > > > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way > > > > Americans > > > > > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you > > evidently > > > > did > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > Why should I want to do that? > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 Absolutely the Swiss own guns for self-defense. You live a lot closer to Switzerland than I do -- how come you know less about it? Maybe you should do homework so you don't look stupid. > > > > Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use guns > > for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense against > > tyrants, etc. > > I dontr believe the Swiss do it for the last reason. > > > > Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a polite, > > peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to mess > > with. > > <derisive laugh> Wht assault a natural fortress when these ppl are > happy to do all your illegal international gold trade for you and bank > all the hoards you've looted from the ppl you've murdered!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 > > > > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way > > > Americans > > > > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you > evidently > > > did > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > Why should I want to do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 > > > > > > Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use guns > > > for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense against > > > tyrants, etc. > > > > I dontr believe the Swiss do it for the last reason. > > > > > > Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a > polite, > > > peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to mess > > > with. > > > > <derisive laugh> Wht assault a natural fortress when these ppl are > > happy to do all your illegal international gold trade for you and > bank > > all the hoards you've looted from the ppl you've murdered!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 4, 2000 Report Share Posted December 4, 2000 I was being rude, certainly, and I regret it and hereby offer my apology. There've been some good commentaries on how Americans look at this issue, and I haven't seen any reasoned response from you. I have to join whoever it was that said that they're tired of the negative characterizations of Americans. I agree you're being negative, and I don't know where you think you get off thinking you know more about our Constitution than we do. So those are a couple of my hot buttons you have pushed. I do sincerely mean the apology, and wish I had not reacted as I did. > > > > > > > > Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use > guns > > > > for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense > against > > > > tyrants, etc. > > > > > > I dontr believe the Swiss do it for the last reason. > > > > > > > > Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a > > polite, > > > > peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to > mess > > > > with. > > > > > > <derisive laugh> Wht assault a natural fortress when these ppl are > > > happy to do all your illegal international gold trade for you and > > bank > > > all the hoards you've looted from the ppl you've > murdered!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 I'm quite sure that it wasn't because most Swiss men may have had rifles that Hitler didn't invade Switzerland. Do you think that logistics (the ALPS) as well as the fact that it wasn't strategically important at the time had something to do with it??? Additionally, even a nut like Hitler may have taken into consideration the " neutral " stance associated with Switzerland, and he may have not wanted to enrage nations like the US.... Seriously... Swiss men with rifles wouldn't have been any match for Panzer divisions. Re: HELP!!! Everyone is still going at this topic so I guess it's not rude for me to continue for a round. The main difference is that: a.) Swiss citizens are armed to the teeth, while the US is not., and b.)Our revolutionary republic was founded by men who thought this natural right of man was so important it had to be stated in the Constitution--second only to the right of free speech. Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use guns for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense against tyrants, etc. Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a polite, peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to mess with. Their society is one good example, a living testament, of just how foolish the assumptions made by gun control advocates are. See: http://members.home.net/drcalvert/Swiss.htm Jim > The difference between Switzerland and USA regarding guns is, that the Swiss > have guns because it's associated with defending the country, while the US's > reason to have a gun is to defend himself against his fellow man in God's > Own Country. > The difference could be named 'Holy Shit'! ;-) > > Bjørn > > Kayleigh S wrote: > > > Assuming that communication is the point of having a list, you should > > do that if you want to understand my point and respond intelligently, > > and if you don't want to bother to check it out, why respond? > > > > I am talking about culture. In cultures where guns are not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 Re Littleton, weren’t one or more of the guns purchased by a girlfriend of one of the boys? How were the others acquired? Maybe the parents? I don’t remember. -----Original Message----- From: uwishtoo@... Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 9:22 PM To: 12-step-freeegroups Subject: Re: Re: HELP!!! In a message dated 12/4/00 5:04:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, kayleighs@... writes: that gun control would not have prevented the situation that happened in Littleton. I didnt read that one, but I have something to add to that, the only ones that will be stopped from having access to guns are the law abiding citizens, the criminals will ALWAYS have access to them no matter how much " gun control " this country tries to adopt! My ex husband used to work in a pool hall and almost on a nightly basis there was at least one guy that used to come in to try and sell a handgun. Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 How do you figure Panzer divisions would have got over the Alps? Panzers are tanks. The Swiss know that the Alps are a powerful deterrent, but, pragmatically, they want a Plan B ready to go if Plan Alps fails. Hitler did have a mountain climbing unit that evaluated the possibility of invading Switzerland. > > > > > Assuming that communication is the point of having a list, you > should > > > do that if you want to understand my point and respond > intelligently, > > > and if you don't want to bother to check it out, why respond? > > > > > > I am talking about culture. In cultures where guns are not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 My recollection, one of the kids had a work colleague who bought them the weapons at a gun show. > Re Littleton, weren't one or more of the guns purchased by a girlfriend of > one of the boys? How were the others acquired? Maybe the parents? I don't > remember. > > Re: Re: HELP!!! > > In a message dated 12/4/00 5:04:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > > > that gun control would not have prevented the situation > that happened in Littleton. > > > > I didnt read that one, but I have something to add to that, the only ones > that will be stopped from having access to guns are the law abiding > citizens, > the criminals will ALWAYS have access to them no matter how much " gun > control " this country tries to adopt! My ex husband used to work in a pool > hall and almost on a nightly basis there was at least one guy that used to > come in to try and sell a handgun. > > Sue A > > > eGroups Sponsor > Click Here! > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S=17 000617 > 19:N/A=466330/?http://www.yahoo.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 Re Littleton, weren’t one or more of the guns purchased by a girlfriend of one of the boys? How were the others acquired? Maybe the parents? I don’t remember. Yeah, I think I read somethwere about a girl being involved, but never heard how the others were acquired. They made their own bombs off of insturctions from the interent with regular, easily available, innocent by themselves, ingredients Sue A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 We were not dealing with the time of Hannibal here... there WERE roads, railways, etc. Of course I wasn't laying out a strategic plan for the invasion of Switzerland, either... just making the point that had Germany wanted to over-run Switzerland, it wouldn't have been particularly difficult - rifles or not in the hands of the Swiss... There were several factors that that were probably much greater considerations than the Alps or some (likely old fashioned WWI style) rifles. Among them, likely the " why? " ... and then as stated in another post... why invade the country that is helping launder the booty? Re: HELP!!! How do you figure Panzer divisions would have got over the Alps? Panzers are tanks. The Swiss know that the Alps are a powerful deterrent, but, pragmatically, they want a Plan B ready to go if Plan Alps fails. Hitler did have a mountain climbing unit that evaluated the possibility of invading Switzerland. > > > > > Assuming that communication is the point of having a list, you > should > > > do that if you want to understand my point and respond > intelligently, > > > and if you don't want to bother to check it out, why respond? > > > > > > I am talking about culture. In cultures where guns are not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 Gun control may not have allowed the " gun show " purchases. Gun shows are one of the main " targets " of the more restrictive legislation. Re: Re: HELP!!! > > In a message dated 12/4/00 5:04:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > > > that gun control would not have prevented the situation > that happened in Littleton. > > > > I didnt read that one, but I have something to add to that, the only ones > that will be stopped from having access to guns are the law abiding > citizens, > the criminals will ALWAYS have access to them no matter how much " gun > control " this country tries to adopt! My ex husband used to work in a pool > hall and almost on a nightly basis there was at least one guy that used to > come in to try and sell a handgun. > > Sue A > > > eGroups Sponsor > Click Here! > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=102308.1038796.2731130.908943/D=egroupmail/S=17 000617 > 19:N/A=466330/?http://www.yahoo.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2000 Report Share Posted December 5, 2000 I think, had things gone differnetly (had the US not mingled in the affairs of others), Switzerland, and its gold, would have been the final plunder for Hitler. Just my 2 cents. Fools rush in... reminds me of a joke... An old bull and a young bull were out grazing, when they saw a herd of ripe heifers. The young bull said, " Lets run over there and do one of those fine heifers. " To which the old bull replied, " No. Lets walk over and do them all. " Thank you, Bjørn, for your good jokes. Re: HELP!!! > > Everyone is still going at this topic so I guess it's not rude for me > to continue for a round. > > The main difference is that: > a.) Swiss citizens are armed to the teeth, while the US is not., and > b.)Our revolutionary republic was founded by men who thought this > natural right of man was so important it had to be stated in the > Constitution--second only to the right of free speech. > > Other than that, people in Switzerland and the US own and use guns > for exactly the same reasons: fun, sport, hunting, defense against > tyrants, etc. > > Being a well armed, relatively free society, they are also a polite, > peacefull society that even the Nazis thought it best not to mess > with. Their society is one good example, a living testament, of just > how foolish the assumptions made by gun control advocates are. > See: > http://members.home.net/drcalvert/Swiss.htm > > Jim > > > > > The difference between Switzerland and USA regarding guns is, that > the Swiss > > have guns because it's associated with defending the country, while > the US's > > reason to have a gun is to defend himself against his fellow man > in God's > > Own Country. > > The difference could be named 'Holy Shit'! ;-) > > > > Bjørn > > > > Kayleigh S wrote: > > > > > Assuming that communication is the point of having a list, you > should > > > do that if you want to understand my point and respond > intelligently, > > > and if you don't want to bother to check it out, why respond? > > > > > > I am talking about culture. In cultures where guns are not > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 > I think, had things gone differnetly (had the US not mingled in the > affairs of others), Hitler made it US business; he declared war on ths US, which relieved the government of the responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2000 Report Share Posted December 6, 2000 The US wanted " in " to WW2 Re: HELP!!! > I think, had things gone differnetly (had the US not mingled in the > affairs of others), Hitler made it US business; he declared war on ths US, which relieved the government of the responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2000 Report Share Posted December 7, 2000 Guess he deserved his medal after all! dlmooneymsw wrote: > From: > > http://www.audiemurphy.com/biograph.htm > > Audie sufferred from what is now known as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder > (PTSD)and was plagued by insomnia and depression. During the mid-60's he > became dependent for a time on doctor prescribed sleeping pills called > Placidyl. When he recognized that he had become addicted to this > prescription drug, he locked himself in a motel room, stopped taking the > sleeping pills and went through withdrawal symptoms for a week. Always an > advocate for the needs of veterans, he broke the taboo about discussing war > related mental problems after this experience. In a effort to draw attention > to the problems of returning Korean and Vietnam War veterans, Audie > spoke-out candidly about his personal problems with PTSD, then known as > " Battle Fatigue " . He publicly called for United States government to give > more consideration and study to the emotional impact war has on veterans and > to extend health care benefits to address PTSD and other mental health > problems of returning war vets. > > Re: Re: HELP!!! > > > > > > > Kayleigh. > > > > > > I'm glad we're in total agreement on the point in question, which you > very > > > eloquently describes in your post. Modest as you are, I can live with > that > > > you call it 'partially'. > > > > > > I've been fed up with American frontier mentality since I could read, > I've > > > read and 8 years old. I've seen Roy , Hoppalong > Cassidy > > > etc. until now. I even know Eddie Murphey, and I know he was a war hero, > > and > > > that his award was probably based on acute madness. Please don't get > > > paranoid, but don't you think the rest of the world can see you? > > > But I forget to tell you all about my favorite cowboy movie: " Blazing > > > Saddles " by Mel . Wonder why the Europeans liked him better than > the > > > Americans? > > > > > > Mentally I can easily identify with the frontier mentality, I'm born in > > > Northern Norway, and if you don't have this mentality you'll probably > > vanish > > > and die. > > > For example, they don't get winter depressions. Beat that! > > > > > > But a frontier mentality is not equal with a hostile attitude towards > > state > > > regulation of violence. > > > > > > Bjørn > > > > > > Kayleigh S wrote: > > > > > > > Certainly what you say is partially true, but I think there is more to > > > > Americans' wanting to own guns than just to shoot fellow human beings. > > > > Guns are tools, after all. There are still certain trades in which > > > > they are relied upon. Marksmanship is also a sport. > > > > > > > > But regardless of what the purpose of own a gun in this country may > > > > be, I do not think that the types of gun control currently being > > > > advocated will stop the types of crimes that have brought forth the > > > > demand for gun control. There is something to be said for the cliche, > > > > " When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. " Wasn't it > > > > pointed out earlier, perhaps not in a post, but maybe in one of the > > > > links, that the types of controls now demanded would not have > > > > prevented a Littleton, which clearly had been planned for months and > > > > months before it happened? People that obsessed will obtain guns > > > > under the proposed controls, just as they did under the current ones. > > > > > > > > There is a sort of frontier mentality in the U.S. as well, which I > > > > think perhaps it's difficult for Europeans to understand. Your > > > > countries are so small in comparison, and have been fully settled for > > > > so many years, that it's difficult to think in terms of the only law > > > > within miles being your own. But that was true here only 100 years > > > > ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't really get your point. I'm not defending the way > > > > > > Americans > > > > > > > > use guns. I just said, check out the Swiss, which you > > > > evidently > > > > > > did > > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should I want to do that? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 5, 2003 Report Share Posted July 5, 2003 Oh Anita, What a rock and a hard place that is. And I'm sure trying to find info that gets specific enough (if it even exists) about the implication of that .75 cm is like finding a needle in a haystack. I guess I'd try to simplify it like this - will the emotional pain of the " what ifs " should a miscarriage occur with the septum be greater than jumping through the surgery hoop again? I'd encourage you to find see if you can't get to that quiet place in yourself to listen to your best answer. Yes reserach is valuable, and yes other's experience is valuable, but in the end, underneath all that info - what does your gut tell you? I wish you peace in your heart to know you made the right decision, whatever that is. G bu/su?? fibroid surgery 8/5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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