Re: Am I in the right place?

[Guest guest]

,

I know you will probably receive replies from list members with more longevity

than I have, but, from what you describe about your situation, I think this

mailing list is definitely the 'right' place. I have been on this list for

about 3 weeks, and I, too, am a 12-step group refugee. Besides the discussions

you have been seeing here over the last 24 hours, there are also discussions

about alternative groups, residual feelings from the 12-step experience, etc. I

think you can really benefit from being here!

I can tell you that so far, I have really enjoyed the intelligence, wit, and

wisdem I see present on this list.

I applaud the fact that you are trusting your inner wisdem enough to be able to

identify the 12-step program for what it is...a religious, bigoted, cult. These

are my own words, but I think you will see that others here agree (I sure hope

so!!!). This is a difficult step (pardon me!) to take, and leaving is even more

difficult. We are no strangers here to the loss of friends as a result of our

decisions...and I am sorry that you have had to go through this.

I think you will find many here with whom you can identify...

So, , welcome!!!

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hey Chris...thanks for the www.aahorror.net link!!

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes you are ... the steppers hate it when someone leaves because it makes

them uncomfortable maybe they dont have the whole truth. The 12 steps and AA

is like a cult and we are here to support you live your own life your own

way ... stick around I spent six years in and around AA and its only

recently that I have begun to break away.

Talk soon

Aussie Rich

+AFs-12-step-free+AF0- Am I in the right place?

+AD4- Hi Everyone,

+AD4-

+AD4- I've been lurking for the past 24 hours and I'm not so sure this is where

I

+AD4- belong. So, I'll explain my story and you can tell me if I am in the

right

+AD4- place.

+AD4-

+AD4- I've been involved in a 12 Step program for the past 2 years and I am

+AD4- desperate to separate from it. Not because I want to turn to my drug of

+AD4- choice but because I am sick and tired of hating myself for not living up

to

+AD4- the +ACI-standards+ACI-.

+AD4-

+AD4- I have had some unbelievable events take place over the past 8 months.

Just

+AD4- emotionally devastating events that have me so confused and in despair.

+AD4-

+AD4- The 12 Step Program has me brainwashed into thinking I am a bad person, do

+AD4- God's will, pray, pray, pray, read the Big Book - ALL of your answers are

in

+AD4- it.....and the list could go on. They have me believing that if I leave

the

+AD4- group I am going to die. Well....I've thought of suicide and that will

+AD4- certainly kill me.

+AD4-

+AD4- I've lost good, good friends that I made in the 12 Step Program. One was

my

+AD4- very best friend and I even named my daughter after her. But they told

her

+AD4- I was a monster, a drunk, a loser...and because she is unable to think for

+AD4- herself she listened when they told her to stay away from me.

+AD4-

+AD4- I lost a very good friend OUTSIDE the 12 Step program because he just

+AD4- couldn't stand to see me in so much pain and he doesn't understand why I

+AD4- seem to be unable to +ACI-get it together+ACI-.

+AD4-

+AD4- I feel like I've been in a cult. I'm so angry, confused, depressed and

+AD4- hopeless. Am I in the right place?

+AD4-

+AD4- Thanks,

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

--------------------------------------------------------------------+ADw-e+AHw--

+AD4- Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds+ACE- Apply NOW+ACE-

+AD4- 1. Fill in the brief application

+AD4- 2. Enjoy a half minute of relaxation

+AD4- 3. Get rates as low as 2.9+ACU- Intro or 9.9+ACU- Ongoing APR and no

annual fee+ACE-

+AD4- http://click./1/7876/2/+AF8-/4324/+AF8-/966971936/

+AD4-

--------------------------------------------------------------------+AHw-e+AD4--

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

[Guest guest]

,

yes, and your not alone as they want you to believe. most of us

have independently come to the same conclusion you have and

found support and freedom to express our thoughts here as to

what we experinced in AA. i have lost good friends due to my

dealings with AA too and some here have lost marriages.

you can leave aa , you dont have to be alone without them, you

can remain sober without them, your not going to self destruct.

this may sound like a cliche but i found it kept me sober and

happy after i left aa: believe in yourself, be good to yourself and

do whats best for you. trust yourself. self esteem, self respect

and self responsbility are what i believe to be the key .

empowerment, not powerlessness.

checkout the links section to this egroup and check out stanton

peele and aadeprograming.com

glad you found us,

dave

[Guest guest]

Hi . I suggest you stick around for a while to get a better sense

of what 12 step free is like. It's a dynamic environment. It can get

kind of tense. But it can be really fun too, and very supportive.

And sometimes it's WAY too quiet. It is a good place, when you feel

comfortable and relatively safe, to talk about your 12 step

experience. I say relatively safe because this is the internet and,

like the real world, I don't know how safe any of us ever is. Maybe

safe enough to risk leaving your 12 step program, though? Welcome

judith

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I've been lurking for the past 24 hours and I'm not so sure this is

where I

> belong. So, I'll explain my story and you can tell me if I am in

the right

> place.

>

> I've been involved in a 12 Step program for the past 2 years and I

am

> desperate to separate from it. Not because I want to turn to my

drug of

> choice but because I am sick and tired of hating myself for not

living up to

> the +ACI-standards+ACI-.

>

> I have had some unbelievable events take place over the past 8

months. Just

> emotionally devastating events that have me so confused and in

despair.

>

> The 12 Step Program has me brainwashed into thinking I am a bad

person, do

> God's will, pray, pray, pray, read the Big Book - ALL of your

answers are in

> it.....and the list could go on. They have me believing that if I

leave the

> group I am going to die. Well....I've thought of suicide and that

will

> certainly kill me.

>

> I've lost good, good friends that I made in the 12 Step Program.

One was my

> very best friend and I even named my daughter after her. But they

told her

> I was a monster, a drunk, a loser...and because she is unable to

think for

> herself she listened when they told her to stay away from me.

>

> I lost a very good friend OUTSIDE the 12 Step program because he

just

> couldn't stand to see me in so much pain and he doesn't understand

why I

> seem to be unable to +ACI-get it together+ACI-.

>

> I feel like I've been in a cult. I'm so angry, confused, depressed

and

> hopeless. Am I in the right place?

>

> Thanks,

>

[Guest guest]

i also suggest you read mesgges on web or get digest edtion

rather than subscribing by email, the number of messges does

get kind of ovewhelming .

dave

[Guest guest]

Hi +ACE- I can realat a lot to your message. You are in the right place.

I too believed I was a sick, powerless alcoholic/addict doomed to die

without AA and the Grace of God. I started realizing that maybe AA didn't

have +ACI-all the answers+ACI- last November when I checked out the Rational

Recovery website.

However, it took more than just knowing there were options besides AA. This

list and a few other websites have helped me to break away from the

incredibly damaging view that I was sick and insane and in denial because of

being too intellectual and overly analyical. I realize that I am not too

smart for my own good+ACI- but I can actually help myself. I am moving from a

helpless, depserate, self loathing, unconfident, non self trusting

+ACI-alcoholic+ACI- to a sober, confident, self trusting, self empowered decent

human being+ACE-

Stck around and see if this list helps you. Also, check out the following

site:

www.aadeprogramming.com

www.aahorror.net

Take care,

Chris

+AFs-12-step-free+AF0- Am I in the right place?

+AD4- Hi Everyone,

+AD4-

+AD4- I've been lurking for the past 24 hours and I'm not so sure this is where

I

+AD4- belong. So, I'll explain my story and you can tell me if I am in the

right

+AD4- place.

+AD4-

+AD4- I've been involved in a 12 Step program for the past 2 years and I am

+AD4- desperate to separate from it. Not because I want to turn to my drug of

+AD4- choice but because I am sick and tired of hating myself for not living up

to

+AD4- the +ACI-standards+ACI-.

+AD4-

+AD4- I have had some unbelievable events take place over the past 8 months.

Just

+AD4- emotionally devastating events that have me so confused and in despair.

+AD4-

+AD4- The 12 Step Program has me brainwashed into thinking I am a bad person, do

+AD4- God's will, pray, pray, pray, read the Big Book - ALL of your answers are

in

+AD4- it.....and the list could go on. They have me believing that if I leave

the

+AD4- group I am going to die. Well....I've thought of suicide and that will

+AD4- certainly kill me.

+AD4-

+AD4- I've lost good, good friends that I made in the 12 Step Program. One was

my

+AD4- very best friend and I even named my daughter after her. But they told

her

+AD4- I was a monster, a drunk, a loser...and because she is unable to think for

+AD4- herself she listened when they told her to stay away from me.

+AD4-

+AD4- I lost a very good friend OUTSIDE the 12 Step program because he just

+AD4- couldn't stand to see me in so much pain and he doesn't understand why I

+AD4- seem to be unable to +ACI-get it together+ACI-.

+AD4-

+AD4- I feel like I've been in a cult. I'm so angry, confused, depressed and

+AD4- hopeless. Am I in the right place?

+AD4-

+AD4- Thanks,

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

--------------------------------------------------------------------+ADw-e+AHw--

+AD4- Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds+ACE- Apply NOW+ACE-

+AD4- 1. Fill in the brief application

+AD4- 2. Enjoy a half minute of relaxation

+AD4- 3. Get rates as low as 2.9+ACU- Intro or 9.9+ACU- Ongoing APR and no

annual fee+ACE-

+AD4- http://click./1/7876/2/+AF8-/4324/+AF8-/966971936/

+AD4-

--------------------------------------------------------------------+AHw-e+AD4--

+AD4-

+AD4-

+AD4-

[Guest guest]

> Hi Everyone,

>

> I've been lurking for the past 24 hours and I'm not so sure this is

where I

> belong. So, I'll explain my story and you can tell me if I am in

the right

> place.

Hi, --and welcome! I think you already know you're in the right

place, if you felt moved to write...

>

> I've been involved in a 12 Step program for the past 2 years and I

am

> desperate to separate from it. Not because I want to turn to my

drug of

> choice but because I am sick and tired of hating myself for not

living up to

> the +ACI-standards+ACI-.

You aren't the first one to feel that way, and you won't be the

last.

>

> I have had some unbelievable events take place over the past 8

months. Just

> emotionally devastating events that have me so confused and in

>despair.

I had my own--a good friend who was " working a good program "

committed suicide, and the responses of other AAs was appalling. It

made me start actively questioning what goes on in " the rooms, " and

AA dogma.

> The 12 Step Program has me brainwashed into thinking I am a bad

person, do

> God's will, pray, pray, pray, read the Big Book - ALL of your

answers are in

> it.....and the list could go on. They have me believing that if I

leave the

> group I am going to die. Well....I've thought of suicide and that

will

> certainly kill me.

If you're coming into a group like this, you haven't been completely

brainwashed! You definitely know they're wrong--but when you think

you're the only one out there that thinks that way, and everyone else

is trying to convince you otherwise, it can drive you nuts.

>

> I've lost good, good friends that I made in the 12 Step Program.

One was my

> very best friend and I even named my daughter after her. But they

told her

> I was a monster, a drunk, a loser...and because she is unable to

think for

> herself she listened when they told her to stay away from me.

>

I'm sorry you've lost your friends; most of us have gone through that

in the process of leaving. It may sound like I'm glossing it over

when I say you can make new ones, but you can--and those friendships

can be based on something more positive than a shared " disease. "

> I lost a very good friend OUTSIDE the 12 Step program because he

just

> couldn't stand to see me in so much pain and he doesn't understand

why I

> seem to be unable to +ACI-get it together+ACI-.

Dealing with others' emotional pain is rough, especially when the

person suffering seems stuck in his or her pain (and AA likes to keep

people stuck!). Give it some time, regain your equilibrium, get the

rest of AA's " hopeless and powerless " crap cleared out of your mind,

and you might be able to resume the friendship. I have managed to

resume some of my old friendships--the best of them--after I'd been

away from AA for awhile.

>

> I feel like I've been in a cult.

You have been.

>I'm so angry, confused, depressed and

> hopeless.

You have a right to be, but it really, really does get better if you

can pull away and think for yourself. Leaving AA is a struggle,

because the indoctrination is so insidious and thorough, and so far

the public perception of it is that it is truly benign and helpful.

When I pulled away seven years ago, there was SMART, SOS, and

Rational Recovery to go to, but I wanted to get the hell away from

groups altogether! But they can certainly be helpful, so if you feel

moved to try any or all of them, do so.

The single most helpful book to me when I was leaving AA was Stanton

Peele's " The Truth About Addiction and Recovery, " but other people on

this list will also have recommendations, I'm sure.

>Am I in the right place?

I think you are. I'm glad to see you made it!

Cheers,

.

>

> Thanks,

>