Re: im touchy on this

[Guest guest]

> im touchy on this

>

>

> i just need to share with someone who may understand where

> im coming from. sometimes i feel like such a freak for having

> been in AA and being on outside knowing what i know of them.

> no one i know understand what it was like in there, how

> destructive it can be on people. i dont even know why i try to

> explain it, it sounds like an insane story.

I understand this feeling completely that's why it irritates me to no end to

hear steppers praising AA even in the most trivial minimalist way on this

list. It makes me want to scream sometimes.

> anyways we got into a long heated (on my part) discussion on AA

> and whether its a religious cult or not. i was totally shocked at

> myself as to how upset i became over this. it was painful and

> upsetting to hear the typical answers, " you can take what you

> want..., anything can be your hp, your being to literal, they are

> suggestions, etc. "

Now I know that feeling of getting all wrapped up in the argument

(emotionally involved in it?) exactly. I was explaining the damn thing

(AA/cult/powerlessness/behavior to someone and found I was way too wrapped

up in it. And turning my listener off to boot. What made it worse was I

told myself this and continued to make my point anyway. Measured 9.0 on the

intensity Richter scale.

> she was an alanon member as i said, and she said alanon was

> less dogmatic than AA.

Isn't alanon a 12 step bastard step cousin of AA?

dogma: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion,

especially one considered to be absolutely true.

It's been my impression all along that the dogma was pretty much the same

for all the 12step groups. From listening to some of them lately I get the

impression they don't consider themselves quite as diseased as their AA

counterparts though. Maybe that's to what she was referring.

> i dont know, i just feel like such an ass for getting so upset, i

> didnt like it and wish it hadnt come up in converstaion. its hard

> when your were in a destructive group, which almost no one

> understand sis a cult, and when you try to explain it, you are told

> the same answers you heard as newcomer. i dont think it want

> to talk with people about it anymore, it makes me too emotional

> and no one can comprehend it.

After that exchange between my friend and I, I learned to keep my feelings

to myself and this subject out of everyday conversation except to

acknowledge quickly that AA is bad/cult. (hehe bad cult down boy bad cult)

Part of the problem, for me, is that I deal with people who refuse to see

anything but that AA is the bomb way too often.

I get this mental picture, every time someone questions me on it, It's a

picture of me arguing aimlessly with a step head for hours at a time. The

more someone insists on doing the math 2 + 2 = 69 when I've shown them

repeatedly that's it's 4 well the quicker I go for the jugular.

Sometimes this reaction is really inappropriate when I'm dealing with

someone not involved but innocently doing AA math.

My solution is to stay the hell away from conversations like this with

friends unless I'm absolutely positive I won't get freaked out. If I'm

agitated about anything to begin with I won't even try to discuss it.

>

> anyone out there relate to where im coming from?

>

> dave

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > she was an alanon member as i said, and she said alanon

was

> > less dogmatic than AA.

>

> Isn't alanon a 12 step bastard step cousin of AA?

yea it is, but she seemed to think they are entirly seprate enities,

she sure defended steps like an AA member. but she did

suprise me when she spoke of NA as being super nazi and

thought it was infiltraing into aa. it ismy understanding NA is

worse (im suprised i dont see more nA people on this lists

actualy) i think alanon is different in someways from AA, but i

what ways i cant say for sure.

> My solution is to stay the hell away from conversations like this

with

> friends unless I'm absolutely positive I won't get freaked out. If

I'm

> agitated about anything to begin with I won't even try to discuss

it

i told myself that was how i should act in public, but after this i

wll

surely do so. that anger i feel, i have to find away to get past it.

its

one thing to believe aa is destructive, its another to allow myself

to be angry over it this long after.

[Guest guest]

> anyone out there relate to where im coming from?

>

> dave

Of course. It's really bad when you can't even stand to hear certain

words anymore, like " gratitude, " " humility, " " serenity, " " recovery "

and " sobriety " without thinking about how the Steppers use them as

weapons, about how they have all these connotations that the " normal "

world knows nothing about. I doubt that I'll ever tell very many

people about my beefs with the Step fanatics. It's just something you

have to experience to appreciate. Although there are a lot of

" normies " who can't stand all the goo-goo touchy-feely baby talk

that's sprung up from the recovery movement. If I ever run into

someone like that, I'll be sure to tell them that a lot of that

psychobabble comes from Step gurus and their sycophants, especially

the " It's not my fault because I've got a disease " excuse.

[Guest guest]

> > My solution is to stay the hell away from conversations like this

> with

> > friends unless I'm absolutely positive I won't get freaked out.

If

> I'm

> > agitated about anything to begin with I won't even try to discuss

> it

>

> i told myself that was how i should act in public, but after this i

> wll

> surely do so. that anger i feel, i have to find away to get past it.

> its

> one thing to believe aa is destructive, its another to allow

myself

> to be angry over it this long after.

I struggle with allowing myself to be angry, and I struggle to find

appropriate ways to deal with my 12 step experience. Because I think

that the way things change is that people talk about them. It is

uncomfortable to get angry but I have to admit I get angry when

people

disrespect my beliefs. A lot of the time I hold that anger in but I

never really hide it very well. That to me is the essence of being

passive aggressive: being really angry and not saying " I'm angry " but

then overreacting to something else, totally unrelated to the thing

I'm really upset about.

I guess what I'm saying is, anger is a normal emotion. Maybe your

experience with the 12 steps isn't really over, maybe it won't be

until you feel your anger for a while longer. I put a lot of stock in

those 5 stages of acceptance: denial, anger, bargaining, depression,

acceptance. I don't think there is one standard period of time that

you're allowed to be angry about an injustice that was done to you.

There IS injustice around the way *A is used, and if we don't talk

about it how will it ever change?

In my opinion...you have something legitimate to be angry about. How

you feel comfortable expressing/dealing with your anger is something

only you can judge. I have family and friends with whom I disagree

strongly, doesn't mean I don't love them. I do try to choose my

battles though. The more I accept and validate my own anger, the

better able I am to control it--is how it seems to work. I know that

sounds kind of psycho-babbley.

I know I'm kind of rambling on here but I have to share one more

thing. I once had a job for about a week, in an office. It was icky,

and I got really angry at my supervisor, the office manager. But I

didn't know it was anger I was feeling; all I was aware of was that,

after a confrontation, I was shaking so badly I couldn't dial a

touch-tone phone. I remember how it dawned on me that I was feeling

anger. I quit that job and found another one right away, a better job

in fact, without seething mean people all over the place in positions

of power.

judith

[Guest guest]

At 01:28 AM 9/30/00 -0500, Arroyo wrote:

>

>

>> -----Original Message-----

>> From: Dave Marcoot

>> i just need to share with someone who may understand where

>> im coming from. sometimes i feel like such a freak for having

>> been in AA and being on outside knowing what i know of them.

>> no one i know understand what it was like in there, how

>> destructive it can be on people. i dont even know why i try to

>> explain it, it sounds like an insane story.

>

>I understand this feeling completely that's why it irritates me to no end to

>hear steppers praising AA even in the most trivial minimalist way on this

>list. It makes me want to scream sometimes.

There's an implication (possible some perversion of or variation on

black-and-white thinking) that there's good and bad in everything and that

we (on 12-step-free) are only looking at the bad, but I see AA as being

like the Nazis - no one has anything good to say about them unles they

themselves are pro-Nazi. When one sees enough danger, " badness " , " evil "

or whatever in something, one no longer considers it worthwhile or

meaningful to look for the " good " in it.

>> she was an alanon member as i said, and she said alanon was

>> less dogmatic than AA.

I've been to a few Al-Anon meetings, and " my experience " is that

Al-Anon is MORE dogmatic than AA. There's an official Al-Anon thing

to display in meetings that says " Let's leave our 'other hats' at the

door when we come into an Al-Anon meeting " , and it shows a hatrack with

hats labeled Professions, Other 12-step programs, outside help, religion,

etc. It had eight or ten things on it that you " areen't supposed to talk

about in Al-Anon meetings " . This is in contrast with AA, in which people

usually have no problem if you mention what religion you are (as long as

you're not an atheist) and what your profession is (as long as you're not

a bartender).

While all 12-step programs have many slogans in common, each one has

some of its own dogma, usually snippets from the readings done at every

meeting. One of Al-Anon's is [for instance, one tells how she is growing

or learning in the program] " little by little " . A 'sign' that a member is

'growing' in a 12-step program is that they start using these little

phrases (whether from the steps, traditions, or other group dogma) in their

talking during meetings as well as with other members outside meetings.

>Isn't alanon a 12 step bastard step cousin of AA?

In some almost literal ways, it's the " wife " of AA. It was started

by Bill 's wife Lois, and was the second 12-step program (actually,

from what I recall reading on an AV website, Alcoholics Victorious, an

openly Christian, Jesus-oriented version of AA, was started just after AA,

but AV is not nearly as widely known as other 'mainstream' " spiritual-not-

religious " 12-step programs).

>dogma: An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion,

>especially one considered to be absolutely true.

>

>It's been my impression all along that the dogma was pretty much the same

>for all the 12step groups. From listening to some of them lately I get the

>impression they don't consider themselves quite as diseased as their AA

>counterparts though. Maybe that's to what she was referring.

Some of the Al-Anons I've heard have claimed they are sicker than

alcoholics because they don't have alcohol on which to blame their bad

behavior on. And many times I've heard AA's talking about Al-Anon's the

same way they talk about other AA members, saying " some are sicker than

others " .

I'm looking at the official site, <http://www.al-anon.org/> (get out

your barf bag BEFORE you surf), and it's interesting in that there is

virtually NO actual 'literature' online except the obligatory steps,

traditions and concepts, and the " suggested preamble " [which means WSO

only SUGGESTS that groups read it at meeting, but is read at ALL Al-Anon

meetings].

An interesting dogma in Al-Anon is that only one word out of the 12

steps was changed (in step 12, alcoholics was changed to others), and

of course the traditions are the same, as with any 12-step group, with

only the name of the group changed. Furthermore, they have the 12

" Concepts " on the website, which the vast majority of 12-steppers probably

haven't even heard of. In AA, the " 12 concepts of world service " are

something never even mentioned in meetings, and only those who have read

a lot of the literature, or have been involved with the intergroup/

general service office structure/hierarchy have a clue they exist.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I just got tired of the INTENSITY of it all. Interesting thread. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

Yes. I understand. I have walked away from aa and I find myself

utterly unable to relate my experiences to anyone without being

considered dry drunk,having an anger problem, unresolved issues, etc.

I read this list and hang on carefully to each word and sentiment

cause altho the number of us here is not large it is certainly large

enough to validate us.

As heated as I can allow myself to become regarding aa and even worse

IMHO, the treatment industry, I have discovered that my anger is at

myself and I like to think that taking it out on aa is better than

taking it out on me. Crap shot as far as I can tell.

Today I found myself in an ethical dilemna where I was torn and

remain so right now. I feel like I have crossed enemy lines.

Had an opportunity to offer a room to someone who was having a

difficult time not drinking. This person remained in my home over

over 3 months. Things went up and down but overall not bad. This

certainly has been one interesting summer.

Well the guest left recently and called late last nite from another

city. Drunk and wanting help. Heck I can't afford to wire him $ to

come back here. But I remember how many people, not all aa folks

either!!!!) who have helped me and then I question just what is my

responsibility as a human to another human. I don't know.

The friend mentioned aa and I said go for it. I give him a bit of a

warning and gosh I kinda feel two faced. As if perhaps I should put

my bucks where my heart is and help him to get back to friendly

territory. Enough of that saga.

I spit in the face of aa every day I walk out my door and every day

I hope I regain a better sense of meself. I don't do surrender.

I stand and become warrior.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

You are sure right about the Concepts. I had been in AA for about 5

years and went to some Al-Anon meetings where I heard about their

Concepts for the first time. I also learned that AA had the Concepts

also.

Never have been to an AA meeting before or since where the Concepts

were brought up. I suspect because none of the members know what the

hell to do with them.

jan

>

> I'm looking at the official site, <http://www.al-anon.org/> (get

out

> your barf bag BEFORE you surf), and it's interesting in that there

is

> virtually NO actual 'literature' online except the obligatory steps,

> traditions and concepts, and the " suggested preamble " [which means

WSO

> only SUGGESTS that groups read it at meeting, but is read at ALL Al-

Anon

> meetings].

> An interesting dogma in Al-Anon is that only one word out of the

12

> steps was changed (in step 12, alcoholics was changed to others),

and

> of course the traditions are the same, as with any 12-step group,

with

> only the name of the group changed. Furthermore, they have the 12

> " Concepts " on the website, which the vast majority of 12-steppers

probably

> haven't even heard of. In AA, the " 12 concepts of world service " are

> something never even mentioned in meetings, and only those who have

read

> a lot of the literature, or have been involved with the intergroup/

> general service office structure/hierarchy have a clue they exist.

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

i looked at concepts (always in 12 huh? cant get away from that

12 deciples bit for a second can they?) and they seemed rather

focused on the leadership of organization, and kind of

redundant at times ( probably from trying to make up 12 when

could have stopped sooner) are they significant at all or just

another curosity?

> Hi Ben,

>

> You are sure right about the Concepts. I had been in AA for

about 5

> years and went to some Al-Anon meetings where I heard about

their

> Concepts for the first time. I also learned that AA had the

Concepts

> also.

>

> Never have been to an AA meeting before or since where the

Concepts

> were brought up. I suspect because none of the members

know what the

> hell to do with them.

>

> jan

>

> >

> > I'm looking at the official site, <http://www.al-anon.org/>

(get

> out

> > your barf bag BEFORE you surf), and it's interesting in that

there

> is

> > virtually NO actual 'literature' online except the obligatory

steps,

> > traditions and concepts, and the " suggested preamble "

[which means

> WSO

> > only SUGGESTS that groups read it at meeting, but is read at

ALL Al-

> Anon

> > meetings].

> > An interesting dogma in Al-Anon is that only one word out of

the

> 12

> > steps was changed (in step 12, alcoholics was changed to

others),

> and

> > of course the traditions are the same, as with any 12-step

group,

> with

> > only the name of the group changed. Furthermore, they have

the 12

> > " Concepts " on the website, which the vast majority of

12-steppers

> probably

> > haven't even heard of. In AA, the " 12 concepts of world

service " are

> > something never even mentioned in meetings, and only

those who have

> read

> > a lot of the literature, or have been involved with the

intergroup/

> > general service office structure/hierarchy have a clue they

exist.

> >

> > -----

> > http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I never heard of the 12 concepts before. What on earth are the

rights

of decision, petition and appeal? Where is this stuff written down?

There seems to be a suggestion here that the structure of AA is not

so

loose and informal as advertised.

> Hi Ben,

>

> You are sure right about the Concepts. I had been in AA for about

5

> years and went to some Al-Anon meetings where I heard about their

> Concepts for the first time. I also learned that AA had the

Concepts

> also.

>

> Never have been to an AA meeting before or since where the Concepts

> were brought up. I suspect because none of the members know what

the

> hell to do with them.

>

> jan

>

> >

> > I'm looking at the official site, <http://www.al-anon.org/>

(get

> out

> > your barf bag BEFORE you surf), and it's interesting in that

there

> is

> > virtually NO actual 'literature' online except the obligatory

steps,

> > traditions and concepts, and the " suggested preamble " [which

means

> WSO

> > only SUGGESTS that groups read it at meeting, but is read at ALL

Al-

> Anon

> > meetings].

> > An interesting dogma in Al-Anon is that only one word out of

the

> 12

> > steps was changed (in step 12, alcoholics was changed to others),

> and

> > of course the traditions are the same, as with any 12-step group,

> with

> > only the name of the group changed. Furthermore, they have the 12

> > " Concepts " on the website, which the vast majority of 12-steppers

> probably

> > haven't even heard of. In AA, the " 12 concepts of world service "

are

> > something never even mentioned in meetings, and only those who

have

> read

> > a lot of the literature, or have been involved with the

intergroup/

> > general service office structure/hierarchy have a clue they exist.

> >

> > -----

> > http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I was at our docs and dentists group last night .

I am forced to attend , and it is heavily AA biased .

However there are some great people there who have overcome terrible horrors

of drug and alcohol addiction , and I take that and leave the AA crap .

We were discussiong some doctors who have died because of their problem .

Many said they felt guilty because they had not done enough .

However as it was said you can only offer people help , and be there for them

, if they dont or cant stop then you have to stand back and tell yourself

that you have done your best . Detachment is hard , but sometimes necessray .

[Guest guest]

> RE: im touchy on this

>

> Furthermore, they have the 12 " Concepts " on the website, which the vast

majority of 12-steppers

> probably haven't even heard of. In AA, the " 12 concepts of world service "

are

> something never even mentioned in meetings, and only those who have read

> a lot of the literature, or have been involved with the intergroup/

> general service office structure/hierarchy have a clue they exist.

I agree whole heartedly with this. I first came across mention of them in

online letters I was sifting through awhile back. The letters were claiming

such and such was a violation of this or that concept. Even though it was

my intention to look them up I somehow never really got around to it.

You know what's funny. Not only do they not have a clue about these but

there is a shit load of steppers who don't even know all the steps or the

traditions much less the concepts. I was in the rewms for over a year and

never memorized any of it.

[Guest guest]

It is not strictly an AA meeting . The groups old timers are all steeped in

AA , and it is the usual stuff that if you say you dont find AA useful , then

somehow its you that is at fault .

I have conditions on my licence , one is to go to AA regularly , the other is

to attend this specialist group regularly ( i.e. once a month )

I am having my case reheard in January because I have challenged the AA

condition , for some other resaons as well .

The Human rights Act comes into force today so that is very good .

[Guest guest]

> I was at our docs and dentists group last night .

is it an AA meeting? how are you being forced? buy court or

work?

[Guest guest]

you may want to check out this book

http://www.peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html

> It is not strictly an AA meeting . The groups old timers are all

steeped in

> AA , and it is the usual stuff that if you say you dont find AA

useful , then

> somehow its you that is at fault .

> I have conditions on my licence , one is to go to AA regularly ,

the other is

> to attend this specialist group regularly ( i.e. once a month )

> I am having my case reheard in January because I have

challenged the AA

> condition , for some other resaons as well .

> The Human rights Act comes into force today so that is very

good .

>

[Guest guest]

At 04:28 AM 10/1/00 -0000, Kayleigh S wrote:

>I never heard of the 12 concepts before. What on earth are the

>rights

>of decision, petition and appeal? Where is this stuff written down?

>There seems to be a suggestion here that the structure of AA is not

>so

>loose and informal as advertised.

These are discussed in some of the AA approved literature, but I'm not

sure where. They are mainly or only used at the 'top' level by AA's GSO

for making decisions such as whether to attempt to retain sole use of

the circle-and-triangle trademark used in AA literature, which was also

being used (without permission) by every bronze medallion manufacturer

that makes the anniversary medallions. My readings of such decisions in

the Grapevine showed how tight-assed these decisions were, often with quotes

from Bill , as these affected the future of AA and thus, supposedly,

the very lives of those who are to later seek AA for help.

But even at the meeting level, where the " Concepts " don't come in to

play, meetings are " loose and informal " in some ways yet very formalized

in other ways.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Hi . About detachment...When I was about 16 I remember

vividly

the experience of just shutting off my emotions toward my mother. It

was like I could suddenly step away from my frame of reference, and

see that I didn't have to feel bad because she did.

That was around the time I read Ayn Rand for the first time, and her

books really influenced my thinking. My oldest sister, who I

idolized,

recommended Rand to me and it was a positive thing I think. Now I

feel

like it's a good thing to be sympathetic or empathetic with others'

pain (at least, to some degree), but I feel that initial experience

of

detachment taught me a valuable lesson. I've used that lesson in

dealing with my separation from my husband.

It's definitely a balancing act--how much do I empathize, how much do

I detach?--but I guess I'm working on my balance.

judith

> I was at our docs and dentists group last night .

> I am forced to attend , and it is heavily AA biased .

> However there are some great people there who have overcome

terrible

horrors

> of drug and alcohol addiction , and I take that and leave the AA

crap .

> We were discussiong some doctors who have died because of their

problem .

> Many said they felt guilty because they had not done enough .

> However as it was said you can only offer people help , and be

there

for them

> , if they dont or cant stop then you have to stand back and tell

yourself

> that you have done your best . Detachment is hard , but sometimes

necessray .

>

[Guest guest]

> I never heard of the 12 concepts before. What on earth are the

> rights

> of decision, petition and appeal? Where is this stuff written down?

> There seems to be a suggestion here that the structure of AA is not

> so

> loose and informal as advertised.

Indeed. All this " non-governmental " stuff is just hooey. I guess when

youve got $75K employees things are goint to get grisly. I was amazed

when I saw that. How the hell anyone can claim that AA is not an

exploitative cult when ppl get paid like that I dont know. Even some

overt religions have an entirely unpaid clergy or very meagre wages..

P.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for validating what I posted on this. I felt the exact same way.

75K to me seemed excessive in the extreme no matter where they're located.

> Re: im touchy on this

>

>

> Indeed. All this " non-governmental " stuff is just hooey. I guess when

> youve got $75K employees things are goint to get grisly. I was amazed

> when I saw that. How the hell anyone can claim that AA is not an

> exploitative cult when ppl get paid like that I dont know. Even some

> overt religions have an entirely unpaid clergy or very meagre wages.

[Guest guest]

>

> Thanks for validating what I posted on this. I felt the exact same

way.

> 75K to me seemed excessive in the extreme no matter where they're

located.

A UK Church of England priest was getting abt £6K a few years ago

IIRC - and thats an overt, upfront religion. I think quite a few AA's,

esecially the not fully indoctrinated newcomers. might be very

interested to hear abt that.

btw, although I think you might be OTT with some of your posts to Pat

(not that I ve ever been myself in similar circumstances of course!) I

generally agree that subversive mindfucks should be challenged head

on. My mother is an absolute master of these and after having been

screwed up royally by them for years I am now inclined to leap on them

the moment I spot them.

P.

[Guest guest]

> Re: im touchy on this

>

> btw, although I think you might be OTT with some of your posts to Pat

You think?