RE: Leave anytime you want!

[Guest guest]

Re: Leave anytime you want!

> I had an oldtimer tell me that I was free to leave, once, before a

> meeting. Later, when it was his turn to speak, he went on and on

> about how grateful he was to God for the Program, yadda yadda yadda,

> and then began to talk about how " some people just don't get it " and

> lack sufficient gratitude and want to go try it on their own, only to

> die drunk or crawl back to AA in misery, a harsh lesson learned. The

> whole time he was saying this, he was turned to look at me, and

> others noticed--they started looking at me as well. His entire

> message to me was that I was free to go, but that I would certainly

> be doomed if I went. While he and the group made no attempt to

> physically restrain me from leaving AA, they did attempt to instill

> enough fear in me to prevent me from going.

I've been in that same situation. I talked with some AA friends at the time

about how I didn't think it was appropraiate for a person to single me out

like that in a meeting. In other words I was pissed off. Those friends

had a typical AA response that if it bothered me it was probably because the

truth hurts.

> Even after I'd been gone awhile I would encounter AA members in

> coffeehouses or on the street, and they often would give me the same

> critical, appraising glances when they said " we haven't seen you at

> meetings in a long time. " Before parting, there would be

> reassurances that I could always come back to the Program when I

> needed it, and the emphasis was on *when*, not *if*.

I run across AAers also who show that kind of reaction. For me its an

awkward situation but I don't feel anywhere near the doubt that I felt when

I first left AA. Now I think of that statement about inviting me back to AA

" when I'm ready " as being about the same as a circus performer inviting me

to be shot out of a cannon or put in the lions' cage " when I'm ready " . No

thanks!

> AA doesn't need to use physical means of dominating and retaining

> members--they implant the idea of the progressive, fatal disease in a

> vulnerable person who is already filled with remorse, shame and self-

> loathing, and then they celebrate that person for having made such a

> mess of his life. Where else on Earth can you be a complete drunken

> fuckup and get positive attention for it, even decades after you quit

> drinking?

>

> Of course, the theme that nobody stays sober without AA and nobody in

> AA stays sober on their own is repeated endlessly. What Program

> dogma does is put a shackle on the problem drinker's mind--I am

> forever diseased, and AA is my one and only hope--and then convinces

> him or her that the shackle is a gift from God, a lovely thing that

> he or she can wear with pride. To want to try a different approach,

> or to turn away from the AA-disease model entirely is to refuse a

> gift from God--a stupid, selfish, immoral, and even suicidal act.

>

> Alright, it's noon--time to get off the damn computer and get some

> work done...

>

> Cheers,

> .

>

Great post . You have some good insights about AA.

Chris

[Guest guest]

Why Sue.

I honestly didn't know you had it in you.

Hehe. You pegged them right good you did.

I would have included And while you're gone we're going to include you as an

example of the morons who cant get the program speculate endlessly as to

whether you're in a jail institution or just plain dead. And did we mention

that higher powers only work while you're working the program so if you

leave you leave without a God. Good luck our hats off to you.

> Re: Leave anytime you want!

>

>

> Oh yes, you may leave anytime you want, if you are a

> complete ingnorant loser who cannot " get this simple program " .

> And certainly anyone who does leave must certainly expect

> insanity, jail or death. Yes, you may leave if you are such a

> fool.

> Because you are POWERLESS and booze will drive you back. And we,

> the blessed, special folks who have the intelligence to

> accept this simple program (you moron) will await your

> return and welcome you with loving arms when you crawl back

> back to us. Oh yes, go and explore whatever you must....

> we will pray for you. AA is not the only answer, so go

> and find out my dear child, and we will await your return.

> We truly wish you the best, even when we know that there

> is no true success outside of this program. Please

> feel free to explore those ideas that you have even though

> it is your disease talking to you.

> If by some odd chance that you do remain sober, then you

> certainly must be on a dry drunk. You are not " sober. "

> And take our word for it, you are not happy. Because

> you just cannot be happy without this simple program you

> moron. But please remember that these ideas are suggestive

> only and that you are free to leave. But it is highly

> suggested to wear a parachute when you jump out of a plane

> you moron. And please remember that we truly do love you,

> because we know that it's just your disease telling you

> to go. Did you know that it is every alcoholics dream to

> be normal? You will never be normal, but if you want to

> try, then go ahead, because we love you and will always be

> here to welcome you back. You are free to leave, but as

> you take your dying drunken breath, please remember that

> it was such a simple program that some just cannot seem to

> understand, and that we love you dearly.

>

>

> Sue

>

>

> >

> >

> > Re: Leave anytime you want!

> >

> >

> > >

> > > ...

> > >

> > > This is where the word " cult " becomes problematic. You CAN leave AA

> >whenever

> > > you want.

> > >

> > > I prefer to see AA as mind manipulation or brain-washing (if that

> >expression

> > > is still permitted). Groups that are really good at this have no need

> >for

> > > fences or locked doors. After enough exposure, " wanting " to

> leave is no

> > > simple matter.

> > >

> > > I believe the root of this list's concern is for people who CAN'T

> >actually

> > > leave whenever they choose because they've been ordered by a court or

> >the

> > > human resources director or some other authority figure to attend so

> >many

> >AA

> > > meetings. Might even be an irate & fed-up spouse or parent.

> > >

> > > The point is, people find their way to AA under duress ... and that's

> >when

> > > the damage can be done that can last a lifetime. Eventually you CAN

> >leave,

> > > but you may well be a very vulnerable person if you do.

> > >

> > > Just my little idea ... Bill (in Pittsburgh)

> > >

> >

> >I don't agree with this. Being court ordered isn't necessarry

> for a person

> >to be trapped in AA. In fact, that is one of the cult like weapons that

> >AAers have. I often heard people say to those who questioned things " No

> >one

> >sent for you " or " nobody gets to AA by mistake " . The message of

> >powerlessness in AA can be very subtle. Sure, anyone can leave

> AA but not

> >easily if they are convinced from AA dogma that to do so will

> bring death,

> >jails, or mental instutions. Perhaps it is easier for someone

> who has been

> >sober for a few years to realize that they don't actually need AA to

> >survive. But some people, myself included, drink for years and

> years while

> >continuing to fall back to AA. How the hell could we just leave AA if we

> >believed that we were doomed if we did so?

> >

> >I had a very difficult time leaving AA and I can honestly say that I feel

> >much more freedom from having done that than from having quit drinking.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

>

> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

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>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Darn ,(sometimes I surprise myself, too I did forget forget

that part.

When you are out finding your way, we will tell other group

members that we so hope you are doing well, even though we

are certain that you are miserable. This belief will also

help us to reassure ourselves that we are where we should be.

Then we can remain happy and serene and continue to rational-

ize a whole lot of irrational thinking. So, you go and be

free, but please, please fail, because if you don't, you'll

make us question ourselves, and that would be way too scary.

We need group thought. So please don't do well on your

own.

We need new people, because we cannot remain sober without

helping someone else. New people are our food. We must

help new people, or will will drink and die. So, go and be

free, but please come back, because our sobriety depends

on helping you. Our book says so, and so it is true.

If we ever feel the urge to drink, we cannot depend on our

own rational thinking. We have a disease. Our only solution

at that point is to help another drunk. It never fails.

We must help another drunk in order to live. We need AA

in order to live. If you leave, we must search for another

way to survive. So, you may go, but we do hope that you feel

hopeless enough to return, because in our twisted reality,

we need you, you moron.

Sue

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: RE: Leave anytime you want!

>Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2000 18:55:57 -0500

>

>

>Why Sue.

>

>I honestly didn't know you had it in you.

>

>Hehe. You pegged them right good you did.

>

>I would have included And while you're gone we're going to include you as

>an

>example of the morons who cant get the program speculate endlessly as to

>whether you're in a jail institution or just plain dead. And did we

>mention

>that higher powers only work while you're working the program so if you

>leave you leave without a God. Good luck our hats off to you.

>

> > Re: Leave anytime you want!

> >

> >

> > Oh yes, you may leave anytime you want, if you are a

> > complete ingnorant loser who cannot " get this simple program " .

> > And certainly anyone who does leave must certainly expect

> > insanity, jail or death. Yes, you may leave if you are such a

> > fool.

> > Because you are POWERLESS and booze will drive you back. And we,

> > the blessed, special folks who have the intelligence to

> > accept this simple program (you moron) will await your

> > return and welcome you with loving arms when you crawl back

> > back to us. Oh yes, go and explore whatever you must....

> > we will pray for you. AA is not the only answer, so go

> > and find out my dear child, and we will await your return.

> > We truly wish you the best, even when we know that there

> > is no true success outside of this program. Please

> > feel free to explore those ideas that you have even though

> > it is your disease talking to you.

> > If by some odd chance that you do remain sober, then you

> > certainly must be on a dry drunk. You are not " sober. "

> > And take our word for it, you are not happy. Because

> > you just cannot be happy without this simple program you

> > moron. But please remember that these ideas are suggestive

> > only and that you are free to leave. But it is highly

> > suggested to wear a parachute when you jump out of a plane

> > you moron. And please remember that we truly do love you,

> > because we know that it's just your disease telling you

> > to go. Did you know that it is every alcoholics dream to

> > be normal? You will never be normal, but if you want to

> > try, then go ahead, because we love you and will always be

> > here to welcome you back. You are free to leave, but as

> > you take your dying drunken breath, please remember that

> > it was such a simple program that some just cannot seem to

> > understand, and that we love you dearly.

> >

> >

> > Sue

> >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Leave anytime you want!

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > ...

> > > >

> > > > This is where the word " cult " becomes problematic. You CAN leave AA

> > >whenever

> > > > you want.

> > > >

> > > > I prefer to see AA as mind manipulation or brain-washing (if that

> > >expression

> > > > is still permitted). Groups that are really good at this have no

>need

> > >for

> > > > fences or locked doors. After enough exposure, " wanting " to

> > leave is no

> > > > simple matter.

> > > >

> > > > I believe the root of this list's concern is for people who CAN'T

> > >actually

> > > > leave whenever they choose because they've been ordered by a court

>or

> > >the

> > > > human resources director or some other authority figure to attend so

> > >many

> > >AA

> > > > meetings. Might even be an irate & fed-up spouse or parent.

> > > >

> > > > The point is, people find their way to AA under duress ... and

>that's

> > >when

> > > > the damage can be done that can last a lifetime. Eventually you CAN

> > >leave,

> > > > but you may well be a very vulnerable person if you do.

> > > >

> > > > Just my little idea ... Bill (in Pittsburgh)

> > > >

> > >

> > >I don't agree with this. Being court ordered isn't necessarry

> > for a person

> > >to be trapped in AA. In fact, that is one of the cult like weapons

>that

> > >AAers have. I often heard people say to those who questioned things

> " No

> > >one

> > >sent for you " or " nobody gets to AA by mistake " . The message of

> > >powerlessness in AA can be very subtle. Sure, anyone can leave

> > AA but not

> > >easily if they are convinced from AA dogma that to do so will

> > bring death,

> > >jails, or mental instutions. Perhaps it is easier for someone

> > who has been

> > >sober for a few years to realize that they don't actually need AA to

> > >survive. But some people, myself included, drink for years and

> > years while

> > >continuing to fall back to AA. How the hell could we just leave AA if

>we

> > >believed that we were doomed if we did so?

> > >

> > >I had a very difficult time leaving AA and I can honestly say that I

>feel

> > >much more freedom from having done that than from having quit drinking.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

>_________________________________________________________________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

>http://www.hotmail.com.

> >

> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

> > http://profiles.msn.com.

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at

http://profiles.msn.com.

[Guest guest]

Re: Leave anytime you want!

>

>

> Oh yes, you may leave anytime you want, if you are a

> complete ingnorant loser who cannot " get this simple program " .

> And certainly anyone who does leave must certainly expect

> insanity, jail or death. Yes, you may leave if you are such a

fool.

> Because you are POWERLESS and booze will drive you back. And we,

> the blessed, special folks who have the intelligence to

> accept this simple program (you moron) will await your

> return and welcome you with loving arms when you crawl back

> back to us. Oh yes, go and explore whatever you must....

> we will pray for you. AA is not the only answer, so go

> and find out my dear child, and we will await your return.

> We truly wish you the best, even when we know that there

> is no true success outside of this program. Please

> feel free to explore those ideas that you have even though

> it is your disease talking to you.

> If by some odd chance that you do remain sober, then you

> certainly must be on a dry drunk. You are not " sober. "

> And take our word for it, you are not happy. Because

> you just cannot be happy without this simple program you

> moron. But please remember that these ideas are suggestive

> only and that you are free to leave. But it is highly

> suggested to wear a parachute when you jump out of a plane

> you moron. And please remember that we truly do love you,

> because we know that it's just your disease telling you

> to go. Did you know that it is every alcoholics dream to

> be normal? You will never be normal, but if you want to

> try, then go ahead, because we love you and will always be

> here to welcome you back. You are free to leave, but as

> you take your dying drunken breath, please remember that

> it was such a simple program that some just cannot seem to

> understand, and that we love you dearly.

>

>

> Sue

I had a discussion with an AAer who said that it is dangerous to hint that

someone might not be alcoholic and could drink in moderation. I had argued

that suggesting someone might try Moderation Management is no more damaging

than telling people to go out and try some controlled drinkng and then to

come back to AA if it doesn't work out. That advice is found in the Big

Book. The guy I argued with said that he tells people to try controlled

drinking if they aren't sure. Then he claimed that aren't real alcohlics.

I asked him how he can be sure not to tell the " real alcoholics " not to try

the controlled drinking, since this would be very dangerous. He still

hasn't replied.

Chris