Guest guest Posted September 17, 2000 Report Share Posted September 17, 2000 Yes, AA is 'free',i.e., there's no cover charge or a ticket to be bought or membership dues. The basket passing is voluntary also. But you give up quite a bit later on down the line, and can end up with a lot more trouble than you bargained for, when the guilt police start chattering about the ramifications of not attending AA meetings any more, among other things. As they say, never look a gift horse in the mouth! jan > Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post suggesting > discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > > There was not only more input than I expected, but also viewpoints from > various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies helped me > realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they have " kept > coming back " . > > Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested that he can't > understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that it is free > and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise alone. > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts on > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, would like > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > > I know you won't let me down!!! > -- > Regards, > > B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2000 Report Share Posted September 17, 2000 Lets take a look at the total loss in man hours. Lets use the 1 million figure with most members attending anywhere from 1 to 3 meetings a week on average some every day some more than one a day. So 1 million at 3 per week. The whole process takes about 2 hours from getting ready for the meeting the meeting and getting back home. If you're lucky it's two hours. Well Settle for two hours. That's 2 hours X 1,000,000 members X 3 meetings a week That's 6,000,000 man hours a week. 6,000,000 man hours X Minimum wage ($5.15 per hour) = 30,900,000 a week X 52 weeks a year = 1,606,800,000 a year conservative figure in terms of lost man hours. 312,000,000 man hours a year which could have been used to attend a parent teacher conference, talk to your kids about sex, drugs, alcohol, do the laundry, do your taxes, mow the lawn, wash your car, do civic work, etc etc. AA is perhaps one of the most expensive things this society has ever produced. > AA free? > > > Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post > suggesting > discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > > There was not only more input than I expected, but also viewpoints from > various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies helped me > realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they have " kept > coming back " . > > Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested > that he can't > understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that > it is free > and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise alone. > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts on > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, > would like > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > > I know you won't let me down!!! > -- > Regards, > > B > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2000 Report Share Posted September 17, 2000 Nice reply, . Of course, society would say that the savings in costs to it outweigh the lost productivity caused by meeting attendance. I've always wondered how they estimate those costs. I suspect the method is bogus, but I don't know. Don't forget, too, that the average wage of AA members generally probably is much higher than the minimum wage. Though I've always been a little suspicious of the opportunity cost theory as well. If I make $30 an hour and mow my own grass, I'm only costing society that much (minus whatever I'd pay the kid next door) if I worked during that time instead, and I'm not likely to do that. I'd probably be hanging out in the backyard drinking lemonade. There's a logical flaw in that last paragraph. Do we have any economics majors on the list? > Lets take a look at the total loss in man hours. Lets use the 1 million > figure with most members attending anywhere from 1 to 3 meetings a week on > average some every day some more than one a day. > > So 1 million at 3 per week. The whole process takes about 2 hours from > getting ready for the meeting the meeting and getting back home. If you're > lucky it's two hours. Well Settle for two hours. > > That's 2 hours X 1,000,000 members X 3 meetings a week That's 6,000,000 man > hours a week. > 6,000,000 man hours X Minimum wage ($5.15 per hour) = 30,900,000 a week X > 52 weeks a year = 1,606,800,000 a year conservative figure in terms of lost > man hours. > > 312,000,000 man hours a year which could have been used to attend a parent > teacher conference, talk to your kids about sex, drugs, alcohol, do the > laundry, do your taxes, mow the lawn, wash your car, do civic work, etc etc. > > AA is perhaps one of the most expensive things this society has ever > produced. > > > AA free? > > > > > > Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post > > suggesting > > discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > > > > There was not only more input than I expected, but also viewpoints from > > various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies helped me > > realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they have " kept > > coming back " . > > > > Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested > > that he can't > > understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that > > it is free > > and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise alone. > > > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many > > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts on > > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, > > would like > > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > > > > I know you won't let me down!!! > > -- > > Regards, > > > > B > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2000 Report Share Posted September 17, 2000 Please explain. > > > Lets take a look at the total loss in man hours. Lets use the 1 > > million > > > figure with most members attending anywhere from 1 to 3 meetings a > > week on > > > average some every day some more than one a day. > > > > > > So 1 million at 3 per week. The whole process takes about 2 hours > > from > > > getting ready for the meeting the meeting and getting back home. > > If > > you're > > > lucky it's two hours. Well Settle for two hours. > > > > > > That's 2 hours X 1,000,000 members X 3 meetings a week That's > > 6,000,000 man > > > hours a week. > > > 6,000,000 man hours X Minimum wage ($5.15 per hour) = 30,900,000 a > > week X > > > 52 weeks a year = 1,606,800,000 a year conservative figure in terms > > of lost > > > man hours. > > > > > > 312,000,000 man hours a year which could have been used to attend a > > parent > > > teacher conference, talk to your kids about sex, drugs, alcohol, do > > the > > > laundry, do your taxes, mow the lawn, wash your car, do civic work, > > etc etc. > > > > > > AA is perhaps one of the most expensive things this society has ever > > > produced. > > > > > > > AA free? > > > > > > > > > > > > Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post > > > > suggesting > > > > discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > > > > > > > > There was not only more input than I expected, but also > > viewpoints > > from > > > > various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies > > helped me > > > > realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they > > have > > " kept > > > > coming back " . > > > > > > > > Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested > > > > that he can't > > > > understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that > > > > it is free > > > > and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise > > alone. > > > > > > > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " > > on > > many > > > > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my > > thoughts on > > > > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, > > > > would like > > > > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > > > > > > > > I know you won't let me down!!! > > > > -- > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 17, 2000 Report Share Posted September 17, 2000 It's free? And that's all you need to know about it? What a swell argument.... You might point out to your friend that housing is free, if you live in a cardboard box under an out-of-the-way railroad bridge, and that food is free, if you are willing to take the time to look for it in dumpsters. -- wally AA free? > >Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post suggesting >discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > >There was not only more input than I expected, but also viewpoints from >various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies helped me >realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they have " kept >coming back " . > >Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested that he can't >understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that it is free >and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise alone. > >I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many >levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts on >this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, would like >to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > >I know you won't let me down!!! >-- >Regards, > >B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 If ever I need a statistician, , I'll know who to call, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: RE: AA free? >Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 19:50:20 -0500 > >Lets take a look at the total loss in man hours. Lets use the 1 million >figure with most members attending anywhere from 1 to 3 meetings a week on >average some every day some more than one a day. > >So 1 million at 3 per week. The whole process takes about 2 hours from >getting ready for the meeting the meeting and getting back home. If you're >lucky it's two hours. Well Settle for two hours. > >That's 2 hours X 1,000,000 members X 3 meetings a week That's 6,000,000 >man >hours a week. >6,000,000 man hours X Minimum wage ($5.15 per hour) = 30,900,000 a week X >52 weeks a year = 1,606,800,000 a year conservative figure in terms of lost >man hours. > >312,000,000 man hours a year which could have been used to attend a parent >teacher conference, talk to your kids about sex, drugs, alcohol, do the >laundry, do your taxes, mow the lawn, wash your car, do civic work, etc >etc. > >AA is perhaps one of the most expensive things this society has ever >produced. > > > AA free? > > > > > > Firstly, please accept my thanks for the great replies to my post > > suggesting > > discussion regarding being free to leave AA at any time. > > > > There was not only more input than I expected, but also viewpoints from > > various angles, I had not seriously considered. Your replies helped me > > realize the harm that AA leaves with someone, long after they have " kept > > coming back " . > > > > Recently, a fellow of the AA dogmatic persuasion has suggested > > that he can't > > understand why I say I will not partake of AA. His stance is that > > it is free > > and should be utilized for it's availability on that premise alone. > > > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many > > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts >on > > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, > > would like > > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? > > > > I know you won't let me down!!! > > -- > > Regards, > > > > B > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on many > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my thoughts on > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, would like > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? I think, bottom line, *A is one compulsive behavior to replace another (compulsive drug use, spending, sex, gambling, what have you). In fact there was a speech posted here by Vaillant (a *A muckymuck) where he admits flat out that *A is one addiction to replace the initial addiction. It's possible to defend this practice, especially if you are the child or spouse of a compulsive person who has been helped by the 12 steps. However, as we at 12sf know, it's also possible to condemn this practice as it can lead to neglect, abuse and abandonment of family members. Apple once wrote that the most successful users of 12 step ideology are those who go for awhile, get over their addiction, then leave. The most unhealthy use of the 12 steps is the recommended use: lifetime membership and " progress, not perfection " toward internalizing 12 step ideology. I've been thinking about this a lot this morning. I live in a capitalist, free market economy. Capitalism is just one perspective, I don't consider it right or wrong, but I do see the glaring defects of my own society firsthand. Abuses of capitalism, from what I know, come less from individuals or small businesses, and more from large organizations--the government and huge corporations (example: Microsoft). In my lifetime there has been a shift in perspective which allows these large-scale abuses to be recognized and addressed. The commingling of 12 step ideology and government is another such abuse which is beginning to be recognized; I think we will see it addressed in the near future. Certainly I feel a strong motivation to address this issue and, barring unforeseen circumstances, I will move forward with what I've already discussed here. Gosh, I could write for hours but I'm going to stop rambling now. maybe I'll even get some work done! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > > I began to expound on the idea that AA certainly was not " free " on > many > > levels aside from the obvious monetary ones. Part way into my > thoughts on > > this subject, I was struck with the idea that maybe some of you, > would like > > to discuss this topic as well. What do you think? did I answer your question? I already gave you the long answer, the short answer is that *A is not free. judith, grinning sheepishly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > It's free? And that's all you need to know about it? What a swell > argument.... > > You might point out to your friend that housing is free, if you live in a > cardboard box under an out-of-the-way railroad bridge, and that food is > free, if you are willing to take the time to look for it in dumpsters. > > -- wally LOL!!! come to America, the land of opportunity, where food, housing, and chemical dependency treatment are free!!! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2000 Report Share Posted September 18, 2000 > Don't forget, too, that the average wage of AA members generally > probably is much higher than the minimum wage. Though I've always > been a little suspicious of the opportunity cost theory as well. If > I > make $30 an hour and mow my own grass, I'm only costing society that > much (minus whatever I'd pay the kid next door) if I worked during > that time instead, and I'm not likely to do that. I'd probably be > hanging out in the backyard drinking lemonade. > > There's a logical flaw in that last paragraph. Do we have any > economics majors on the list? I wasn't an econ major but I'm intrigued. Do tell, Kayleigh! judith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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