Re: Martyr Mom (and Denier Dad)

[Guest guest]

You're right on target, Tiny Pundit (and what a great name, btw!), but my head

just about exploded reading the whole " the only person I can change is myself "

line. Always does. I know it's totally true and totally right . . . but it's

also been a real trigger phrase for me lately b/c it's what my dad always says

to try to get me to not rock the boat. Which in our family means " don't insist

on boundaries, just let her violate them and hold your tongue, sooner or later

it'll end " . Can you imagine giving that kind of advice to a rape victim? But the

kind of emotional rape my mom loves to dish out seems to be a different case.

Anybody else dealing with that kind of denial?

[Guest guest]

Psyclone,

We are all on different paths or at different stages of healing.  Living with

BPDs, bipolars, schizos, etc., as the child or the spouse, is not a picnic in

the park.  There are so many things that they do because of their illness that

cause such terrible pain that we are left with emotional scars and are trying to

sort it all out and put ourselves back together again.  For me, it does help to

realize it is true that the illness projects things true of themselves onto

others, thus absolving themselves of responsibility.  It helps to keep in mind

they dissasociate and that means their perception of events is different from

yours and mine but that this is unconscious so that her feelings make sense --

she changes the perception to match up with her feelings.  They can appear to

be

hateful but for me, I must remember it is their disease and that they didn't ask

for it, either but got stuck with it.

Then there's the fact that in every field of endeavor there are good workers and

bad workers, some good at what they do and some bad.  This includes

psychiatrists and therapists.  Rather than just saying " it's the disease, you

can't control it dear, " the shrink needs to say -- there are some clues in your

feelings and what you see yourself doing that can let you know you're on the

wrong track with your spouse or with your child. 

In transactional analysis, they teach that in patients with psychosis, there is

a blocked out, or decommissioned adult ego state and what's left is the parent

ego state and the child ego state.  These are all taped shoulds and shouldn'ts,

critical and nurturing parent, feelings and decisions recorded before age 5 --

the adult ego state is the computer or filter where the information gets sorted

and a decision is made as to its applicability.  That means the adult is unable

to control behavior and it can be periodic.  The person without a conscience, a

sociopath, has a child-contaminated adult with a blocked-out parent.  There are

techniques for dealing with these individuals in transactional analysis.

But there are other methods, as well.  For me, it is a combination of knowing

the disease and placing blame on it and not the person but still holding the

person accountable combined with spirituality.  When criticized, embarrassed,

or

hurt, my normal response is to go on the defensive and protect my ego, my small

self, which takes offense easily.  But I had to learn to disconnect from the

drama to get in touch with the part of me which is incapable of taking offense,

the person we are but aren't in touch with much.  I don't openly react but stay

neutral.  I've learned not to send out messages that show my goat has been

" gotten. "   Psalms 46:10 is really helpful.  It has been a slow process because

of my " justice " mentality and my hurt little girl inside.  I had to get out of

the drama, out of being sucked down into the vortex, to find an objective view

of the whole.

It boils down to conscious awareness being freeing from the effects of

tragically toxic life circumstances.  We can learn to survive quietly and

confidently within an emotionally charged environment that keeps trying to push

our buttons.  We can only be victimized if we identify with victimhood.  At

first, victimhood serves a " useful " but deceptive purpose.  It gives a sense of

relief by creating a false sense of moral superiority over the individual

involved in poor behavior towards us.  (I'm OK, you're not OK) would be said in

transactional analysis as a life position.  And that is a sad, sad, life

position.  No one having it can be truly happy even away from the BPD.  And,

anyway,  that is short lived.  It was for me, anyway.  It wasn't any time at

all

before I would find myself ruminating and obsessing, replaying the drama over

and over.  I became increasingly bitter -- we see a lot of that here --

bitterness caused by pain and perception of an unfair childhood environment. 

But we don't want to say that, do we.  If we're not careful, victimhood can

become a drug and it's a dead end.

I began to look at a journey toward liberation from the effects I had known as

fleas or warts.  No person is perfectly good or perfectly bad but a mixture. 

Hard to integrate, true, but liberation depends on it.  I had to acknowledge

the

conflict consciously and then let it go.  The healing can then begin.  It was

only then that I could move forward emotionally in a more healthy and productive

way.

We do not come to God by our perfection.  God comes to us in spite of our

failures and hurts and imperfections.  There is nothing we can do that God

cannot transform.  There is nothing to fear.  I believe the choice is a

personal

one and that God uses the outcome of our choices to teach us love in one way or

another.

We CAN get to a point where the BPD is given boundaries and we can hold them

accountable but in a loving way.  We can get to the point of understanding and

growth where we don't feel pain when they pull their stuff (not consciously --

they do it unconsciously) because we know it for what it is and we do not take

it personally any more because we are above that spiritually.

But it takes time and work and coaching and openness to it.

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Sun, October 24, 2010 5:08:06 PM

Subject: Re: Martyr Mom (and Denier Dad)

 

You're right on target, Tiny Pundit (and what a great name, btw!), but my head

just about exploded reading the whole " the only person I can change is myself "

line. Always does. I know it's totally true and totally right . . . but it's

also been a real trigger phrase for me lately b/c it's what my dad always says

to try to get me to not rock the boat. Which in our family means " don't insist

on boundaries, just let her violate them and hold your tongue, sooner or later

it'll end " . Can you imagine giving that kind of advice to a rape victim? But the

kind of emotional rape my mom loves to dish out seems to be a different case.

Anybody else dealing with that kind of denial?

[Guest guest]

I'm not sure I agree with you that personality-disordered individuals can be

helped with transactional analysis therapy.

Currently the DSM-IV lists the Axis II disorders, which includes personality

disorders and mental retardation, as untreatable, but there are some studies

that show that newer therapies like dialectical behavioral therapy can improve

behaviors in those with personality disorder, IF the person with pd is able to

accept the notion that they need therapy and chooses to stick with it.

However, from what I've read, those with narcissistic pd who lack empathy, and

those with antisocial pd (aka sociopathic pd or psychopathic pd) who lack both

empathy and a conscience, who lack the capacity to feel remorse for the harm

they do, are pretty much not treatable by any therapy.

Each person does have to find their own path toward healing, and discover what

will and won't work for them RE having or not having a relationship with a toxic

parent who has inflicted emotional abuse, physical abuse, or even sexual abuse

on you.

But I think that each of us needs to be absolved of guilt, of feeling like we

are BAD for protecting ourselves from abuse and further damage even if it means

cutting contact with our abuser, even if that abuser is our parent.

If a religious approach works for you, then great. I personally had a nada

that used religion as a weapon to keep me attached to her and feeling misplaced

guilt about protecting myself, so that approach doesn't work for me.

I think that misplaced guilt can very effectively keep us attached to an abuser

and keep us in a vulnerable, weak place where we continue to expose ourself to

abuse. Me personally, I advocate for separation from the abuser and only IF the

abuser is willing to seek therapy and demonstrates a consistent and long-term

change his or her behaviors, then a tentative re-initiation of contact may be

considered on a trial basis.

But that's just my opinion, to take or leave. My mantra is " Protecting yourself

and/or your children from an abusive person does NOT make you a bad person. "

-Annie

>

> Psyclone,

>

> We are all on different paths or at different stages of healing.  Living with

> BPDs, bipolars, schizos, etc., as the child or the spouse, is not a picnic in

> the park.  There are so many things that they do because of their illness

that

> cause such terrible pain that we are left with emotional scars and are trying

to

> sort it all out and put ourselves back together again.  For me, it does help

to

> realize it is true that the illness projects things true of themselves onto

> others, thus absolving themselves of responsibility.  It helps to keep in

mind

> they dissasociate and that means their perception of events is different from

> yours and mine but that this is unconscious so that her feelings make sense --

> she changes the perception to match up with her feelings.  They can appear to

be

> hateful but for me, I must remember it is their disease and that they didn't

ask

> for it, either but got stuck with it.

>

> Then there's the fact that in every field of endeavor there are good workers

and

> bad workers, some good at what they do and some bad.  This includes

> psychiatrists and therapists.  Rather than just saying " it's the disease, you

> can't control it dear, " the shrink needs to say -- there are some clues in

your

> feelings and what you see yourself doing that can let you know you're on the

> wrong track with your spouse or with your child. 

>

>

> In transactional analysis, they teach that in patients with psychosis, there

is

> a blocked out, or decommissioned adult ego state and what's left is the parent

> ego state and the child ego state.  These are all taped shoulds and

shouldn'ts,

> critical and nurturing parent, feelings and decisions recorded before age 5 --

> the adult ego state is the computer or filter where the information gets

sorted

> and a decision is made as to its applicability.  That means the adult is

unable

> to control behavior and it can be periodic.  The person without a conscience,

a

> sociopath, has a child-contaminated adult with a blocked-out parent.  There

are

> techniques for dealing with these individuals in transactional analysis.

>

> But there are other methods, as well.  For me, it is a combination of knowing

> the disease and placing blame on it and not the person but still holding the

> person accountable combined with spirituality.  When criticized, embarrassed,

or

> hurt, my normal response is to go on the defensive and protect my ego, my

small

> self, which takes offense easily.  But I had to learn to disconnect from the

> drama to get in touch with the part of me which is incapable of taking

offense,

> the person we are but aren't in touch with much.  I don't openly react but

stay

> neutral.  I've learned not to send out messages that show my goat has been

> " gotten. "   Psalms 46:10 is really helpful.  It has been a slow process

because

> of my " justice " mentality and my hurt little girl inside.  I had to get out

of

> the drama, out of being sucked down into the vortex, to find an objective view

> of the whole.

>

> It boils down to conscious awareness being freeing from the effects of

> tragically toxic life circumstances.  We can learn to survive quietly and

> confidently within an emotionally charged environment that keeps trying to

push

> our buttons.  We can only be victimized if we identify with victimhood.  At

> first, victimhood serves a " useful " but deceptive purpose.  It gives a sense

of

> relief by creating a false sense of moral superiority over the individual

> involved in poor behavior towards us.  (I'm OK, you're not OK) would be said

in

> transactional analysis as a life position.  And that is a sad, sad, life

> position.  No one having it can be truly happy even away from the

BPD.  And,

> anyway,  that is short lived.  It was for me, anyway.  It wasn't any time

at all

> before I would find myself ruminating and obsessing, replaying the drama over

> and over.  I became increasingly bitter -- we see a lot of that here --

> bitterness caused by pain and perception of an unfair childhood environment. 

> But we don't want to say that, do we.  If we're not careful, victimhood can

> become a drug and it's a dead end.

>

> I began to look at a journey toward liberation from the effects I had known as

> fleas or warts.  No person is perfectly good or perfectly bad but a

mixture. 

> Hard to integrate, true, but liberation depends on it.  I had to acknowledge

the

> conflict consciously and then let it go.  The healing can then begin.  It

was

> only then that I could move forward emotionally in a more healthy and

productive

> way.

>

> We do not come to God by our perfection.  God comes to us in spite of our

> failures and hurts and imperfections.  There is nothing we can do that God

> cannot transform.  There is nothing to fear.  I believe the choice is a

personal

> one and that God uses the outcome of our choices to teach us love in one way

or

> another.

>

> We CAN get to a point where the BPD is given boundaries and we can hold them

> accountable but in a loving way.  We can get to the point of understanding

and

> growth where we don't feel pain when they pull their stuff (not consciously --

> they do it unconsciously) because we know it for what it is and we do not take

> it personally any more because we are above that spiritually.

>

> But it takes time and work and coaching and openness to it.

[Guest guest]

Hi Annie.  I am sorry if I said, directly or indirectly, that people shouldn't

go NC. I thought I was stating one of the things that worked for me with one

person.  Your " mantra, " as stated in your last line, is correct, Annie. 

Actually, I agree that there are times and circumstances when we must cut

contact with people in our lives who continually hurt us.  I have had to do it

in my life as well, and my therapist had directed me to do it.  Though I grieve

for the relationship that could have been with that particular sister, I don't

grieve the pain and agony and heartbreak I experienced at each and every visit

and I don't grieve trying to live down the lies that pathological liar of a

sister told about me out of envy or jealousy or who knows why.

It is a very sad thing to have to do, but we do not have control over whether or

not somebody else likes or or likes to hurt us, whether they are sane or insane,

whether they are emotionally mature or emotionally immature.  There are some

people in this world who willfully and maliciously hurt others and ENJOY doing

so.

There are other people in this world who do not enjoy hurting others though they

do, in fact, hurt others.  I do, however, have a heart for the people who hurt

others but who are not aware they are doing it and are out of control.  I

personally make more of an effort with these folks, but like you, if they are

not willing to go to therapy and APPLY it, I might add, WORK IT, learn and grow

from it, then we have done the best we could do and have to walk away. 

Hopefully, we can find the compassion to be there for them if they are dying or

in the hospital or lose a relative but only for a short, short time to get the

immediate concerns dealt with if they are incapable because of their disease. 

The disease is not their fault.

However, whether they hurt us on purpose or hurt us without meaning to, just

doing what people with that disorder do, the result is the same -- we are

hurt. 

Albert Einstein said that no problem can be solved from the same level of

consciousness (conscious awareness) that created it.  I believe that this is

true.

What helped me was to come to see the whole drama as tragic and IMPERSONAL, and

I had an outside therapist trained, who " walked with me " through my own mine

field for many years.  It isn't a journey I would recommend taking alone.

As much as it all felt personal, and at a certain level of course it was

personal, but the abuse still was not about " me " personally.  The abuse was

about the dysfunction and tragic pain and unawareness of the person carrying it

out.  She projected her own shame and insecurity onto me.  Once I became aware

of this and understood it, I could respond calmly and no longer react in a

self-sabotaging manner -- but this would probably only work on those who KNOW

what they are doing.

I was fortunate to have found a competent and compassionate guide who deeply

understood what was happening and ultimately got me to the place where I could

" detach " emotionally and see the whole thing from a safer distance while being

right in the middle of it.  Conscious awareness brings new behaviors.  My work

was not to change the abuser but to change my perspective, to step farther back

emotionally, spiritually, and psychologically until I could see the whole and

not just my piece of the drama.

There is a piece of each of us that cannot take offense and that is

indestructible.  We have to find that piece of ourselves, our " essential " self,

get in touch with it, and live more consistently from that place.

I am sorry also that your nada used religion as a weapon.  I don't like

" religion " much.  I get frustrated with a lot of churches who are teaching that

anything goes.  What I got in touch with was God.  I'd been suicidal and had

kneeled on my bed looking up at the night time sky and begged God to just take

me home.  Life was too painful and I didn't want to be here any more.  I

didn't

see any answers.  A client of mine told me about a book called " The Invisible

War " which is about spiritual warfare, basically, by Grey Barnhouse.  I

looked up every scripture because my knowledge of the Bible was so limited. 

Then, in desperation, I turned to the Bible and prayerfully read it.  God was

there.  Somehow the text came alive and touched the spirit God had placed

within

me, probably when He knit me together in my mother's womb.  " Religion " is not

the answer.  GOD is the answer.  It's so hard to describe.  I did see

miracles. 

I experienced things I never would have believed if someone had told me about

them.  God leads each one of us, sooner or later, on a journey, a journey we

would never choose.  Maybe the purpose is to teach us wisdom or to get us in

touch with the person we uniquely are.  It took me 20 years, and though I would

not want to relive them, I am grateful for that unchosen path and what has come

from it.  There is a Franciscan Friar named Rohr -- I cannot even begin

to explain these mysteries.  I wish I could.  But I do know for certain that

God

is real; He is alive and He wants to love us and be loved by us and He wants us

to love one another.  That's one reason I like this site because people love

one

another in their support and they can be supportive because they understand,

empathize, because we've all been there -- there, in that ugly place, that place

and time we had no control, no understanding, but repetitious pain.

It's okay for you to disagree about transactional analysis.  Each of us must

find his/her own source(s) that work and since we are all different, the things

that work for each will probably be different.  The adult with psychosis has a

blocked out adult ego state.  The adult ego state doesn't function.

* The adult ego state forms after the parent and child ego states.  The child

is helpless, has had unthinking responses to demands and stimulations around

him.  He has formed a parent and a child.  But he has not had the ability to

choose his responses or to manipulate his surroundings.  He has had no

self-direction, no ability to move out to meet life.  He has simply taken what

has come his way.  At ten months, however, he begins to experience the power of

locomotion, can manipulate objects, begins to move out, freeing himself from

immobility, starts concentrating on inspection and exploitation of toys.  He

finds he can do something from his own original thought.  This is the beginning

of the Adult ego state.  It is a " thought concept " of life.  It is a " taught

concept "  in the parent ego state and a " felt concept " in the child ego state. 

It is the adult ego state that thinks.  It is the adult ego state that goes for

a walk to " clear his mind. "

* The adult ego state is principally concerned with transforming stimuli into

pieces of information and processing and filing that information on the basis of

previous experience.  The parent ego state is judgmental in an imitative way

and

the child tends to react more abruptly on the basis of prelogical thinking and

poorly differentiated or distorted perceptions.  Through the adult the little

person can begin to tell the difference between life as it was taught and

demonstrated to him (parent), life as he felt it or wished or fantasied it

(child) and life as he figures it out by himself (adult).

* The adult is a data processing computer which gives decisions after computing

the information from three sources: The parent, the child, and the data which

the adult has gathered and is gathering. 

* The adult examines the data in the parent to see if it is true and still

applicable, and then accepts it or rejects it.

* The adult examines the child to see whether or not the feelings there are

appropriate to the present or are archaic. Accept it or reject it.

* The goal is not to do away with parent or child ego states but to examine

them for data.

 

So without a functioning adult ego state, the person is handicapped.  When the

adult ego state is not functioning, the person is out of touch with reality. 

The parent and child come on straight, frequently in a jumbled mixture of early

experiences that do not make sense now because they didn't when they were

recorded.  Sometimes a person will say " the struggle is too hard, I will not

try. "

 

The first step in treatment is to reduce those feelings of terror that exist. 

The therapist must approach the patient with an " I'm OK, You're OK " position. 

Often the adult is " hooked " by this human assumption and begins asking " how come

you're on the outside and I'm on the inside? "   The therapist must establish

what

is the most destructive maneuver or game the person is using.  HE can inform

the

patient, " You scare the hell out of people . . . " simply and directly and is

frankly told he is OK, he is important because of the uniqueness of his being a

human being, and hope begins.  When the adult ego state in the patient can

begin

processing data, listen, learn, help in decisions, the innate regenerative

powers begin operating on their own and the healing process begins.  In a

setting where the I'm OK -- you're OK is the stated contract, the psychotic

patient feels supported, stroked, reassured, and the stage is set for the return

of the adult.  P-A-C is taught.  There is discussion.

 

The emergence of the Adult ego state, however, tenuous, is the beginning of the

re-establishment of contact with reality and the stage is set for the learning

of P-A-C, through which further discovery can be made by the patient about

his/her own behavior.  Also, drugs are administered to aid in mood elevation

and

calming of extreme agitation.

 

All that is from I'm OK, You're Ok and it goes on to discuss manic depression

and what is happening with them.

 

TA would not work for everyone.  But it would work for some -- perhaps for

those

that the standard treatments are ineffective or for those who just don't " get "

it and persist in being a child, a manipulative, selfish, self-centered child of

20, 30, 40, 50, 60, etc.  It's certainly worth a try.

>>

________________________________

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Sent: Tue, October 26, 2010 1:08:00 PM

Subject: Re: Martyr Mom (and Denier Dad)

 

I'm not sure I agree with you that personality-disordered individuals can be

helped with transactional analysis therapy.

Currently the DSM-IV lists the Axis II disorders, which includes personality

disorders and mental retardation, as untreatable, but there are some studies

that show that newer therapies like dialectical behavioral therapy can improve

behaviors in those with personality disorder, IF the person with pd is able to

accept the notion that they need therapy and chooses to stick with it.

However, from what I've read, those with narcissistic pd who lack empathy, and

those with antisocial pd (aka sociopathic pd or psychopathic pd) who lack both

empathy and a conscience, who lack the capacity to feel remorse for the harm

they do, are pretty much not treatable by any therapy.

Each person does have to find their own path toward healing, and discover what

will and won't work for them RE having or not having a relationship with a toxic

parent who has inflicted emotional abuse, physical abuse, or even sexual abuse

on you.

But I think that each of us needs to be absolved of guilt, of feeling like we

are BAD for protecting ourselves from abuse and further damage even if it means

cutting contact with our abuser, even if that abuser is our parent.

If a religious approach works for you, then great. I personally had a nada that

used religion as a weapon to keep me attached to her and feeling misplaced guilt

about protecting myself, so that approach doesn't work for me.

I think that misplaced guilt can very effectively keep us attached to an abuser

and keep us in a vulnerable, weak place where we continue to expose ourself to

abuse. Me personally, I advocate for separation from the abuser and only IF the

abuser is willing to seek therapy and demonstrates a consistent and long-term

change his or her behaviors, then a tentative re-initiation of contact may be

considered on a trial basis.

But that's just my opinion, to take or leave. My mantra is " Protecting yourself

and/or your children from an abusive person does NOT make you a bad person. "

-Annie

>

> Psyclone,

>

> We are all on different paths or at different stages of healing.  Living

with

> BPDs, bipolars, schizos, etc., as the child or the spouse, is not a picnic in

> the park.  There are so many things that they do because of their illness

that

>

> cause such terrible pain that we are left with emotional scars and are trying

>to

>

> sort it all out and put ourselves back together again.  For me, it does

help

>to

>

> realize it is true that the illness projects things true of themselves onto

> others, thus absolving themselves of responsibility.  It helps to keep in

mind

>

> they dissasociate and that means their perception of events is different from

> yours and mine but that this is unconscious so that her feelings make sense --

> she changes the perception to match up with her feelings.  They can appear

to

>be

>

> hateful but for me, I must remember it is their disease and that they didn't

>ask

>

> for it, either but got stuck with it.

>

> Then there's the fact that in every field of endeavor there are good workers

>and

>

> bad workers, some good at what they do and some bad.  This includes

> psychiatrists and therapists.  Rather than just saying " it's the disease,

you

> can't control it dear, " the shrink needs to say -- there are some clues in

your

>

> feelings and what you see yourself doing that can let you know you're on the

> wrong track with your spouse or with your child. 

>

>

> In transactional analysis, they teach that in patients with psychosis, there

is

>

> a blocked out, or decommissioned adult ego state and what's left is the parent

> ego state and the child ego state.  These are all taped shoulds and

>shouldn'ts,

>

> critical and nurturing parent, feelings and decisions recorded before age 5 --

> the adult ego state is the computer or filter where the information gets

sorted

>

> and a decision is made as to its applicability.  That means the adult is

>unable

>

> to control behavior and it can be periodic.  The person without a

conscience,

>a

>

> sociopath, has a child-contaminated adult with a blocked-out parent.  There

>are

>

> techniques for dealing with these individuals in transactional analysis.

>

> But there are other methods, as well.  For me, it is a combination of

knowing

> the disease and placing blame on it and not the person but still holding the

> person accountable combined with spirituality.  When criticized,

embarrassed,

>or

>

> hurt, my normal response is to go on the defensive and protect my ego, my

small

>

> self, which takes offense easily.  But I had to learn to disconnect from

the

> drama to get in touch with the part of me which is incapable of taking

offense,

>

> the person we are but aren't in touch with much.  I don't openly react but

>stay

>

> neutral.  I've learned not to send out messages that show my goat has been

> " gotten. "   Psalms 46:10 is really helpful.  It has been a slow process

>because

>

> of my " justice " mentality and my hurt little girl inside.  I had to get out

of

>

> the drama, out of being sucked down into the vortex, to find an objective view

> of the whole.

>

> It boils down to conscious awareness being freeing from the effects of

> tragically toxic life circumstances.  We can learn to survive quietly and

> confidently within an emotionally charged environment that keeps trying to

push

>

> our buttons.  We can only be victimized if we identify with victimhood. 

At

> first, victimhood serves a " useful " but deceptive purpose.  It gives a

sense

>of

>

> relief by creating a false sense of moral superiority over the individual

> involved in poor behavior towards us.  (I'm OK, you're not OK) would be

said

>in

>

> transactional analysis as a life position.  And that is a sad, sad, life

> position.  No one having it can be truly happy even away from the

BPD.  And,

>

> anyway,  that is short lived.  It was for me, anyway.  It wasn't any

time at

>all

>

> before I would find myself ruminating and obsessing, replaying the drama over

> and over.  I became increasingly bitter -- we see a lot of that here --

> bitterness caused by pain and perception of an unfair childhood

environment. 

> But we don't want to say that, do we.  If we're not careful, victimhood can

> become a drug and it's a dead end.

>

> I began to look at a journey toward liberation from the effects I had known as

> fleas or warts.  No person is perfectly good or perfectly bad but a

mixture. 

>

> Hard to integrate, true, but liberation depends on it.  I had to

acknowledge

>the

>

> conflict consciously and then let it go.  The healing can then begin. 

It was

>

> only then that I could move forward emotionally in a more healthy and

>productive

>

> way.

>

> We do not come to God by our perfection.  God comes to us in spite of our

> failures and hurts and imperfections.  There is nothing we can do that God

> cannot transform.  There is nothing to fear.  I believe the choice is a

>personal

>

> one and that God uses the outcome of our choices to teach us love in one way

or

>

> another.

>

> We CAN get to a point where the BPD is given boundaries and we can hold them

> accountable but in a loving way.  We can get to the point of understanding

and

>

> growth where we don't feel pain when they pull their stuff (not consciously --

> they do it unconsciously) because we know it for what it is and we do not take

> it personally any more because we are above that spiritually.

>

> But it takes time and work and coaching and openness to it.

[Guest guest]

I'm so happy that you found that a belief in God worked for you. I'm happy

whenever a KO finds *something* that works to help him or her heal, take back

her or his adult power and avoid further abuse, neglect, or exploitation by a

mentally ill parent.

I just think its important to acknowledge that even atheists and agnostics can

find healing and peace and can shed misplaced and inappropriate guilt through

reading and educating themselves about personality disorders (and how those with

pd damage their children), by going to group therapy, and/or going to private

therapy, and they can find peace and healing with or without a belief in a

higher power or God or other religious belief system.

Its all about what works for you as an individual. I totally agree with you

that coming to accept that the mistreatment is not " personal " , so to speak, is

an important step in becoming emotionally detached from our abuser so that the

healing process can begin.

RE transactional analysis, I'm sorry but I'm still not convinced that your facts

are accurate RE stating that TA is an effective treatment for those with

personality disorder.

At the NIMH website, their section on bpd lists dialectical behavioral therapy

as the most effective current treatment:

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/borderline-personality-disorder-fact\

-sheet/index.shtml

At a site called AAPEL for the support of those with borderline pd (a French

site in English) there is a page listing study after study that appears to

indicate that dialectical behavioral therapy shows the best results. Here is

the link. Slightly more than halfway down the page is the list of clinical trial

studies:

http://www.aapel.org/bdp/BLtherapyUS.html#transacanalysis

Also, the article " Management of BPD " lists dialectical behavioral therapy as

the currently most effective talk therapy for bpd. Here is the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Management_of_borderline_personality_disorder

I think that the main problems are (if I understand what I've read correctly)

that there are not that many psychoanalysts who are trained and experienced in

dbt because its a relatively new type of treatment, because

personality-disordered patients tend to take years in therapy to show any

results if the patient is amenable to therapy to begin with, and because

personality disorder is not generally covered by insurance companies because its

currently classified as " untreatable. "

The French site (the one that is for the support of those with bpd) offered the

opinion that any form of psychotherapy is better than no treatment, so, if TA is

the only kind of therapy available for an individual with bpd, then, go for it;

that's better than nothing.

-Annie