Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 , How very interesting is your story here. Yes, biotin deficiency can induce seizures. I hadn't mentioned that because we never saw anything that looked like seizures in Grace, but I've put a study below that talks about this connection and there are many more. Also, I'm at the time of month I get my non-aura migraine that I treat with biotin, but I have noticed that during the past two days, I have had a very frequent urgency and have at least doubled or tripled my trips to the bathroom. That is consistent with your observation, isn't it? Why don't you get those Nature's Way biotin lozenges, and use that to see if you can determine an effective dose. You could also see if your doctor would be willing to order organic acid profiles to see if he could monitor hydroxyisovaleric acid, which gets elevated during biotin deficiency. However, it may be that this association with blood sugar is NOT a usual deficiency thing....What I mean by that is that biotin in excessive amounts may be necessary if there is a broken step at this place, but not at the other usual places. Again, what I am suspecting is that this is a TRANSPORT issue, anyway, so it may be that this transporter's dysregulation is specific to some tissues because of tissue-specific regulation, and that might NOT be reflected as much in the usual biotin deficiency markers. Does that make sense? Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 1997;67(6):461-3. Related Articles, Links Effect of biotin depletion on spike-wave seizures in the tottering mutant mouse. Krause KH, Bonjour JP, Aichele-Wehrse R, Huck-Breiter M, Berlit P. Neurological Clinic, University of Heidelberg, Germany. Influence of depletion of biotin on spontaneously occurring spike-wave seizures in the tottering mutant mouse was tested by electrocorticographic recordings over three hours in five mice fed a biotin deficient diet. Frequency of seizures as well as percent of time with epileptic discharges were clearly lowered in the biotin deficient animals compared with eight mice of the same age under normal food (p < 0.01 in Wilcoxon's U-test). PMID: 9433681 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] At 01:40 PM 8/20/2003 +0000, you wrote: >, >I noticed your comment about biotin. We are again going through a >round of seizures - usually precipitated by dietary intolerances. >This road to seizures began with day long migraines every few weeks >for 3 years. When the seizures began 9 years ago, the migraine >pattern disappeared. Since we've been chelating(1.5 yrs now) we've >seen a return of the 'bad headache.' It usually comes with a seizure >episode but is of much shorter duration than the day long ones of >the past. Long ago during an 'in-house' evaluation for seizures, a >post seizure blood sugar was 50. That was after waiting about 10-15 >minutes for the lab personnel so I figured that blood sugar was on >the way up at that point! We also see very frequent urination(6-8 >times per hour for several hours) as these episodes are winding >down. Usually we can count on them lasting up to 24 hours. Nausea is >sometimes an issue as is light and noise intolerance. Do you think >increased biotin would be beneficial - she gets about 2-4 mg per >day. Do we need to also increase the other B family to go along with >this increase? She already takes lots of B6 in P5P form and others. >Any thoughts? Thanks, B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 , Ooops. Left out a question. You asked: >Do we need to also increase the other B family to go along with >this increase? She already takes lots of B6 in P5P form and others. I know that formula for success with B's, but since we know specifically about the transport of biotin, we know which B's are affected, and the only competition that has been characterized are pantothenic acid and ALA. I have actually been supplementing my daughter on biotin and ALA for many, many years....long before the mercury theory came out. We just added in the pantothenic acid this year. You know, the problem here is that IF this system is downregulated at certain times of month or in coordination with regulation of blood sugar, then there may be a biological purpose to it that has to do with ALA or pantothenic acid. It is sad, but there is not too much literature on B5 (pantothenic acid) deficiency signs, so we are a bit on our own on that. But there is the association of B5 supplementation with improvements in acne. I guess all you can do, , is try it with or without the B5 (for at least a week, I would say), and try and see if the B5 adds to the benefit or takes away benefit. Are you using ALA right now in your chelation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2003 Report Share Posted August 20, 2003 , Thanks. We'll try increasing. We use the pure powder because so many additives seem to negatively impact here. B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 This is all irrelevant and unrelated to reality as can trivially be demonstrated by mass balance arguments. Some amount of at least quantitative thinking and analysis, if not actual numbers, does really need to go into figuring anything out in order to get anywhere. Andy . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . > > You asked: > > >Do we need to also increase the other B family to go along with > >this increase? She already takes lots of B6 in P5P form and others. > > I know that formula for success with B's, but since we know specifically > about the transport of biotin, we know which B's are affected, and the only > competition that has been characterized are pantothenic acid and ALA. I > have actually been supplementing my daughter on biotin and ALA for many, > many years....long before the mercury theory came out. We just added in > the pantothenic acid this year. > > You know, the problem here is that IF this system is downregulated at > certain times of month or in coordination with regulation of blood sugar, > then there may be a biological purpose to it that has to do with ALA or > pantothenic acid. It is sad, but there is not too much literature on B5 > (pantothenic acid) deficiency signs, so we are a bit on our own on > that. But there is the association of B5 supplementation with improvements > in acne. > > I guess all you can do, , is try it with or without the B5 (for at > least a week, I would say), and try and see if the B5 adds to the benefit > or takes away benefit. > > Are you using ALA right now in your chelat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 The real question here is whether the seizure causes nerve activity that activates insulin secretion, where her own oversecretion of insulin causes the hypoglycemia, or whether the hypoglycemia pre-exists and causes the seizures. You do very different things for the two situations. Blood test measurement of insulin is readily available. What biotin does in diabetics is enhance the rate of conversion of pyruvate to 2 oxoglutaric acid, an intermediate in the krebs cycle. Pyruvate is otherwise turned into acetly coenzyme A and then into citrate. Elevated pyruvate can cause any number of problems, and would show up on an organic acid test, or the krebs cycle portion of the Great Smokies equivalent (I think they call it a metabolic profile). Andy . . . . . .. > I noticed your comment about biotin. We are again going through a > round of seizures - usually precipitated by dietary intolerances. > This road to seizures began with day long migraines every few weeks > for 3 years. When the seizures began 9 years ago, the migraine > pattern disappeared. Since we've been chelating(1.5 yrs now) we've > seen a return of the 'bad headache.' It usually comes with a seizure > episode but is of much shorter duration than the day long ones of > the past. Long ago during an 'in-house' evaluation for seizures, a > post seizure blood sugar was 50. That was after waiting about 10-15 > minutes for the lab personnel so I figured that blood sugar was on > the way up at that point! We also see very frequent urination(6-8 > times per hour for several hours) as these episodes are winding > down. Usually we can count on them lasting up to 24 hours. Nausea is > sometimes an issue as is light and noise intolerance. Do you think > increased biotin would be beneficial - she gets about 2-4 mg per > day. Do we need to also increase the other B family to go along with > this increase? She already takes lots of B6 in P5P form and others. > Any thoughts? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 Andy, So what do you do if the pyruvate is elevated? Our son has sometimes tested slightly elevated for pyruvate and has seizures. Thanks Robin [ ] Re: Biotin The real question here is whether the seizure causes nerve activity that activates insulin secretion, where her own oversecretion of insulin causes the hypoglycemia, or whether the hypoglycemia pre-exists and causes the seizures. You do very different things for the two situations. Blood test measurement of insulin is readily available. What biotin does in diabetics is enhance the rate of conversion of pyruvate to 2 oxoglutaric acid, an intermediate in the krebs cycle. Pyruvate is otherwise turned into acetly coenzyme A and then into citrate. Elevated pyruvate can cause any number of problems, and would show up on an organic acid test, or the krebs cycle portion of the Great Smokies equivalent (I think they call it a metabolic profile). Andy . . . . . .. > I noticed your comment about biotin. We are again going through a > round of seizures - usually precipitated by dietary intolerances. > This road to seizures began with day long migraines every few weeks > for 3 years. When the seizures began 9 years ago, the migraine > pattern disappeared. Since we've been chelating(1.5 yrs now) we've > seen a return of the 'bad headache.' It usually comes with a seizure > episode but is of much shorter duration than the day long ones of > the past. Long ago during an 'in-house' evaluation for seizures, a > post seizure blood sugar was 50. That was after waiting about 10-15 > minutes for the lab personnel so I figured that blood sugar was on > the way up at that point! We also see very frequent urination(6-8 > times per hour for several hours) as these episodes are winding > down. Usually we can count on them lasting up to 24 hours. Nausea is > sometimes an issue as is light and noise intolerance. Do you think > increased biotin would be beneficial - she gets about 2-4 mg per > day. Do we need to also increase the other B family to go along with > this increase? She already takes lots of B6 in P5P form and others. > Any thoughts? Thanks ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 >>hydroxyisovaleric acid,<< , Is there another name for this? We have a couple of OATs, most recent 4/03, that I do not see this on the results. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2003 Report Share Posted August 21, 2003 , It usually has a 3 in front of it, so 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid, or it is also called beta-hydroxyisovaleric acid. I just shortened it to keep it from sounding so technical. Does that help? There are actually 3 or 4 of these organic acids that get elevated with biotin deficiency, but I find that most OAT's leave the others off. In fact, I went through my files and compared which items the OAT covers at different labs, and there is no standardization either of what is on that test, or of the reference ranges except for a very few commonly used analytes. The reference ranges usually do not appear to be age-adjusted. Why is that important? Children's creatinine output is very low compared to adults. When you divide everything in the test by creatinine, it falsely elevates everything in small children if the lab is using adult reference ranges. The big proof of this is when someone has done a 24 hour test, and they report it both ways: per 24 hours and by creatinine. Where these values fall within the ranges is very different in most cases when comparing 24 hour reference ranges vs. by creatinine. This works the same on any urinary testing reported in terms of creatinine including heavy metals testing. If they did not use reference ranges specific for age and height and expected creatinine at that age and height (and possibly adjusting more if the diet is very low or very high in meat), then anything they measure may look elevated when it is perfectly normal. Your doctors should be watching this issue with whatever lab they use... Am J Clin Nutr. 1997 Apr;65(4):951-8. Related Articles, Links Increased urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid and decreased urinary excretion of biotin are sensitive early indicators of decreased biotin status in experimental biotin deficiency. Mock NI, Malik MI, Stumbo PJ, Bishop WP, Mock DM. Department of Pediatrics, University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences, Arkansas Children's Hospital, Little Rock 72202-3591, USA. dmmock@... To assess the utility of various indicators of biotin status, marginal biotin deficiency was induced experimentally in normal adults. Ten subjects consumed a diet that contained enough avidin to bind seven times more biotin than that in the diet. Blood and 24-h urine samples were collected before the diet began and twice weekly thereafter for 20 d. The urinary excretion and serum concentration of biotin and its two principal inactive metabolites bisnorbiotin and biotin sulfoxide were determined after HPLC separation with an avidin-binding assay. The urinary concentration of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid, an indicator of reduced activity of a biotin-dependent enzyme, was quantitated by gas chromatography-mass spectrometry. The urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid increased significantly (P < 0.0001). For all subjects, the urinary excretion of both biotin and bisnorbiotin decreased significantly (P < 0.0001 for each). In contrast, the mean serum concentration of biotin did not decrease significantly (P = 0.06). These data provide evidence that the urinary excretion of 3-hydroxyisovaleric acid and the urinary excretion of biotin are early and sensitive indicators of biotin deficiency and that the serum concentration of biotin is not. PMID: 9094878 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] J Pediatr. 1998 Nov;133(5):655-9. Related Articles, Links [Click here to read] The impact of dietary protein intake on urinary creatinine excretion in a healthy pediatric population. Neubert A, Remer T. Research Institute of Child Nutrition, Dortmund, Germany. OBJECTIVE: The aim of the study was to investigate the effect of daily protein intake on urinary creatinine (CR) excretion in healthy children. METHODS: In a cross-sectional study, 24-hour urinary CR excretion rates were measured in 350 children aged 4 to 13 years. Body composition was assessed according to anthropometric measurements, and intake of protein was estimated from dietary records. RESULTS: CR excretion adjusted for fat-free mass (FFM) showed a strong age dependency and correlated clearly with total protein intake and animal protein intake. Stepwise regression analyses revealed that age was the main predictor; however, animal protein intake improved the proportion of explained variance in FFM-related CR excretion. Comparisons of urinary CR output in subgroups of children with low (1st tertile) or high (3rd tertile) animal protein intake showed that on average, a difference of about 9% in CR excretion corresponded to a difference of 1.1 g/kg of body weight per day of animal protein intake. CONCLUSIONS: Animal protein intake must be taken into account when urinary CR output is used for evaluating body composition in children. Additionally, the finding of a clearly stronger increase in urinary CR than in FFM with age offers an explanation for the commonly observed phenomenon of a decreasing ratio of numerous urinary analytes related to CR during childhood. PMID: 9821424 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] At 04:45 PM 8/21/2003 +0000, you wrote: > >>hydroxyisovaleric acid,<< > >, >Is there another name for this? We have a couple of OATs, most >recent 4/03, that I do not see this on the results. Thanks, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2003 Report Share Posted August 22, 2003 > Why is that important? Again, what is important is the ability to reason quantitatively, using numbers and equations, so as to recognise arguments such as that below as meaningless. Creatinine is low in children because muscles make creatinine. Children are small, they have small muscles, low creatinine. The rest of the stuff is also made proportional to body size. Thus, normalizing it to creatinine is the proper way to handle it and moots the need for age related reference ranges in most cases. Roughly all X per creatinine is saying is X per pound of person. This is usually what is relevant. Andy . . . . .. . . . . >Children's creatinine output is very low compared > to adults. When you divide everything in the test by creatinine, it > falsely elevates everything in small children if the lab is using adult > reference ranges. The big proof of this is when someone has done a 24 hour > test, and they report it both ways: per 24 hours and by creatinine. Where > these values fall within the ranges is very different in most cases when > comparing 24 hour reference ranges vs. by Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 What brand, what dosage? I've had very severe hair loss that is not replenishing. > > Biotin works for my kids. It depletes magnesium tho, so be sure to > give it with magnesium. But it thickened up the hair of two of my > kids, stopped hair loss for one kid, and removed a sebborhea condition > for myself. > > Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2005 Report Share Posted January 23, 2005 My hair came out in fist fulls after weening my daughter. I've heard several things can cause this, low thyroid among others. Endocrine system is damaged by mercury, flourine, chlorine, stress.... Most doctors do not recognize low thyroid nor how to treat it. .... [ ] Re: biotin What brand, what dosage? I've had very severe hair loss that is not replenishing. > > Biotin works for my kids. It depletes magnesium tho, so be sure to > give it with magnesium. But it thickened up the hair of two of my > kids, stopped hair loss for one kid, and removed a sebborhea condition > for myself. > > Dana ======================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2005 Report Share Posted January 24, 2005 > > What brand, what dosage? I've had very severe hair loss that is not > replenishing. Most of my supplements are Natural Factors brand, or Henry's brand [store brand] because those have the fewest fillers of the ones I have seen. The biotin I am using is Bluebonnet brand. I give my kids 500 mcg per day, with about 150 mg magnesium. For my sebborhea condition, I used a 5mg capsule [different brand] which required a TON of magnesium, but it sure did clear up the condition in about 2 days. Good luck. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2006 Report Share Posted June 30, 2006 Thanks! Jeni Lynn > > Biotin does not need to be this high. > > 5-10 mg 3-4 times a day for people with elevated pyruvate (on > conventionally normed lab tests, not " out of reference range " in the > yellow on alternative lab tests, otherwise a few hundred mcg is more > than enough, split up during the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.