Re: Big time grouper urges forgiveness

[Guest guest]

Ken, since Dr. T. is a member of JCAHO, he might be interested in

knowing that I was in a JCAHO-accredited facility right in his own

state of Texas and that I found that environment quite coercive. Not

only did they make it clear that remaining an atheist or agnostic was

NOT an option, they did next to nothing to accommodate any patients

who wanted to take a non-spiritual path to sobriety. They allowed the

patients' MANDATORY AA meetings to end with the Lord's Prayer,

despite objections from one patient (me) that it was a slap in the

face of non-Christians. They required us to sit through daily

hourlong lectures from a " volunteer " Stepper (who also ran the

hospital giftshop)about Step One in which he flagrantly proselytized

for Christianity. They had Christian crosses prominently displayed in

many places and a HUGE cross up on " Serenity Hill " but not a single

symbol of any other major religion. Last time I checked their Web

site, they were starting a new special program for Christian

patients, but again NOTHING for Jews, Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists or

(God forbid) atheists or agnostics.

The name of the place is La Hacienda and it is located in Hunt,

Texas. Be sure he gets that part.

By the way, " LaHa " is NOT affiliated with any church. Also, going to

LaHa was no choice of mine. It was the ONLY hospital my employer

would allow me to choose in order to detox from heroin.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

Pass my web site on to him and ask him to read the first four Szasz

quotes on the Selected Quotes page. Then ask him how his credentials

compare to those of Szasz as outlined in Who's Who in America. Then

pass Perkins vs. Pena on to him and ask for his comments on this kind

of not for profit trickment. Then ask him to read 's book.

Then tell him that my crusade goes on.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html

United States District Court

Eastern District of North Carolina

Tommy G. Perkins

Plaintiff

vs. COMPLAINT

Federico Pena

Secretary

United States Department of Transportation

Defendant

FIRST CLAIM

1. That in November of 1985 the Plaintiff was an officer and

helicopter

pilot with the U. S. Coast Guard with eight years active duty, his

fitness reports reflecting a history of being a good officer and an

excellent pilot.

2. That in November of 1985, upon arrival at his new duty station of

U.

S. Coast Guard Air Station City, North Carolina, the

Plaintiff

confessed an off-duty drinking problem and requested assistance from

the

command for the problem.

3. That the command scheduled the Plaintiff to attend inpatient

alcohol

rehabilitation treatment at U. S. Naval Hospital Millington,

Tennessee

to begin on December 23, 1985 and to last for approximately thirty

days.

4. That upon learning that the acting executive officer of U. S.

Coast

Guard Air Station City had conversed freely with civilians

about the Plaintiff's treatment plans, thus compromising the

Plaintiff's

privacy of medical information, the Plaintiff requested not to go to

military inpatient alcohol rehabilitation treatment, and requested to

be

able to see a civilian counselor on his own.

5.That the Plaintiff was then sent by the command to be evaluated by

a

Navy psychiatrist at U. S. Naval Hospital Portsmouth, Virginia, who

reported the Plaintiff to be normal, fit for flying, and likely to

have

a bad reaction to inpatient treatment.

6. That in spite of this evaluation by the Navy psychiatrist, the

command sent the Plaintiff involuntarily to inpatient alcohol

rehabilitation treatment at U. S. Naval Hospital Millington,

Tennessee

on December 23, 1985.

7. That the Plaintiff spent Christmas week, 1985 observing and being

subjected to intense, humiliating, and intimidating verbal abuse

insisting that the Plaintiff " believe " in Alcoholics Anonymous

principles and that the Plaintiff " believe " that the Plaintiff had

the

" disease " of alcoholism. That these intimidating sessions took place

in

a room where a large poster giving numerous references to " God " hung

conspicuously on the wall. That the Plaintiff was subjected to

mandatory Alcoholics Anonymous meetings that opened with all present

reciting, in unison, Serenity Prayer and closed with all present

standing in a circle, holding hands and reciting, in unison, the

Lord's

Prayer.

8. That the Plaintiff observed the treatment to be based on coerced

spirituality and beliefs in religious principles that were

inconsistent

with the Plaintiff's own religious beliefs, especially the torturous

lifelong stigmatization of self and others, which is contrary to the

teachings of the Plaintiff's own God and the instructions of

ch.

6, vs. 5-9 of the Holy Bible from the Plaintiff's own God.

9. That on or about the sixth day of treatment the Plaintiff told one

of

the staff members that the Plaintiff did not believe the Plaintiff

had

the disease of alcoholism and that the Plaintiff wanted out of the

program.

10. That on December 31, 1985 the Plaintiff was called into a staff

office where the entire staff (five people) surrounded the Plaintiff

in

a semicircle, slammed books on a desk, yelled at the Plaintiff, told

the

Plaintiff that the Plaintiff's deceased father who did not drink was

a

" dry alcoholic " , and in an intensely coercive pre-Miranda style

setting,

demanded that the Plaintiff profess " belief " that the Plaintiff had

the

disease of alcoholism, which the Plaintiff refused to profess. That

the

Plaintiff stated that if religion was the basis of the treatment, the

Plaintiff would be better off placing himself in an environment of

the

Plaintiff's own religion as the Plaintiff had done previously while

attending graduate school at a university sponsored by the

Plaintiff's

own religion. That the staff responded to this remark by the

Plaintiff

by shouting at the Plaintiff with more abusive language and one staff

member stating that she had tried that, and it did not work for her

and

that " their " religious program was the only way to solve the

Plaintiff's

problem. That during this bizarrely abusive session, one of the

counselors who, because he was on leave during the entire week had

never

even met the Plaintiff, continued to shout in a loud voice, " You are

a

sick man, Mr. Perkins, you are a sick man. "

11. That this interrogation session was an inquisition of the

Plaintiff's " beliefs " rather than his actions, the Plaintiff having

already confessed to periodic abuse of alcohol.

12. That the Plaintiff was discharged from treatment on December 31,

1985 and that the follow-up reports stated that the Plaintiff had

failed

to cooperate in treatment.

13. That shortly after the Plaintiff's return to his duty station the

Plaintiff had a conference at the Fifth Coast Guard District office

in

Portsmouth, Virginia with the district alcohol and drug abuse

representative, a senior chief petty officer, and that this

conference

was attended also by a civilian co-worker of the senior chief. That

the

Plaintiff stated that the Plaintiff did not want to attend Alcoholics

Anonymous meetings. That the senior chief and the civilian became

quite

indignant, and in a session, although not nearly as intimidating and

abusive as the previously mentioned session on December 31, stated

that

these religious activities would be mandatory. That the senior chief

stated that he knew from personal experience from being a member of

Alcoholics Anonymous that " his " religious program was the only way to

solve the Plaintiff's problem.

14. That the Plaintiff was then forced against his will to swallow

daily

the dangerously toxic and life threatening chemical, disulfiram, but

was

not told by any representative of the Coast Guard that any dangerous

risks were associated with the ingestion of this chemical. That

Coast

Guard regulations require that this information concerning possible

side

effects of the drug be presented to the patient by a physician.

15. That in violation of the Establishment Clause of the First

Amendment

of the United States Constitution [ vs. Laird-466 F.2d 283,

285

(1972)], the Plaintiff was ordered to attend three (3) Alcoholics

Anonymous meetings per week where religious dogma and prescribed

prayer

were part of the program. That as proof of attendance at these

religious meetings at various churches and civic buildings, the

Plaintiff was required to submit to the command slips of paper signed

by

Alcoholics " Anonymous " members of the civilian community, thus

compromising the religious privacy of the civilian community. That

the

prescribed prayers at these meetings consisted of each meeting

opening

with all present reciting in unison the Serenity Prayer, and each

meeting closing with all present standing in a circle holding hands

and

reciting in unison the Lord's Prayer. That the Lord's Prayer is a

sectarian prayer of sacred text [Abington School District v. Schempp,

374 U.S. 203, (1963)]. That prayer is a religious exercise/activity,

and " at a minimum, the Constitution guarantees that government may

not

coerce anyone to support or participate in religion or its exercise,

or

otherwise act in a way which 'establishes a [state] religion or

religious faith, or tends to do so'. " This is a fundamental

limitation

" imposed by the Establishment Clause. " [Lee v. Weisman, 112 S. Ct.

2649

(1992)]. That this coercion also violates the Free Exercise Clause

of

the First Amendment [Abington, 374 U.S. at 223.] That this coercion

also violates the instructions of Jesus Christ, the Plaintiff's Lord

and

Savior ( ch. 6, vs. 5-9 of the Holy Bible). That to determine

whether the Establish Clause has been violated, the Supreme Court

applies a three-part test (the Lemon Test) set forth in Lemon v.

Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). That under this test, to satisfy the

Establishment Clause a governmental practice must (1) reflect a

clearly

secular purpose; (2) have a primary effect that neither advances nor

inhibits religion; and (3) avoid excessive government entanglement

with

religion. That the Coast Guard clearly failed to satisfy parts (2)

and

(3) of the Lemon Test. That excessive government entanglement with

religion is clearly reflected by the Coast Guard's policy to coerce

some

of its members to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings, a voluntary

organization of people in the civilian community who gather and pray

together, many of whom disapprove of others being coerced to join

them,

and especially by the Coast Guard's policy to require its members to

return the signed names of members of Alcoholics " Anonymous " to the

command. That the Coast Guard's practice also serves to advance and

inhibit religion in this case. That by requiring a member to attend

and/or participate in these meetings, where the Lord's Prayer is

recited

in unison by all, the Coast Guard's practice serves to advance

religion,

the Lord's Prayer being a Christian prayer from the New Testament of

the

Holy Bible, which refers to prophesy unique to the Christian faith.

That the Coast Guard's practice also serves to inhibit religion,

because

there are Christians like myself who believe that the words of

ch. 6, vs. 5-9 truly reflect the sacred message given by Jesus to the

people as He stood on the mountain.

16. That the mandatory attendance at these religious meetings was

especially torturous to the spirit and soul of the Plaintiff, since

this

duty station was in City, North Carolina, the town where

the

Plaintiff had grown from infancy to adulthood, and where the

Plaintiff's

parents had introduced the Plaintiff to the Plaintiff's own God, and

together they worshiped their own God in their own way and at their

own

chosen place of worship.

17. That during the nine month period between the Plaintiff's

discharge

from treatment and discharge from the Coast Guard, all operational

capacitations of the Plaintiff, including flight status, security

clearance, and operational watches were terminated. (The plaintiffs

of

vs. Laird were also persecuted severely by their Academy

staff

until their attorney gained a restraining order to prevent such

persecution).

18. That on September 15, 1986 the Plaintiff was discharged from

active

duty in the United States Coast Guard his fitness reports reflecting,

of

course, that the Plaintiff had done no right and, of course, that the

Coast Guard had done no wrong.

19. That the religious based beliefs that the Plaintiff refused to

proclaim and yet the Defendant was in such powerful alignment with,

are

considered by today's experts who study and research the field of

substance abuse with reason, objectivity, scientific method and

without

religious prejudice, to be erroneous.

20. That as Mr. Jefferson stated so many times that it would if it

were

allowed to, error is on the flee. Yet the Plaintiff has been

ruthlessly

stigmatized and incapacitated from his government position for not

allowing the Defendant to pursue its happiness by tyrannizing over

the

mind and beliefs of the Plaintiff with the religiously aligned

convictions of the Defendant.

21. That " Soon Mrs. Ford was the famed founder of the prestigious

Betty

Ford Center, a lofty perch from which, at last, she could look down

on

people as sickos. " , Szasz, Our Right to Drugs: The Case for a

Free Market, p.88.

22. That " As noted in the first chapter, in 1963 the Supreme Court

declared that a law does not violate the principle of church-state

separation if its purpose and primary effect are secular. Since then

practically every effort to introduce religion in the public school

or

to get public funds for church schools has been accompanied by a

recitation of 'purpose and primary effect' as if it were a verbal

talisman whose mere incantation was sufficient to exorcise the ghost

of

unconstitutionality. The reductio ad absurdum of the purpose effect

test is to be found in the 1972 case of Laird v. .

One would assume that in the United States no one could be

forced

to go to church. At least four times within the past 25 years the

Supreme Court has said so. Nor is this tradition of recent vintage;

it

is more than three centuries old, dating back to a letter, written in

1654 by to the people of the Town of Providence, in

which

he said:

There goes many a ship to sea, with many hundred

souls in one ship,

whose weal and woe is common, and is a true picture of a

commonwealth,

or a human combination or society. It hath fallen out sometimes,

that

both papists and protestants, Jews and Turks, may be embarked in one

ship; upon which supposal I affirm, that all the liberty of

conscience,

that ever I pleaded for, turns upon these two hinges--that none of

the

papists, protestants, Jews, or Turks be forced to come to the ship's

prayers or worship, if they practice any. I further add, that I

never

denied, that notwithstanding this liberty, the commander of this ship

ought to command the ship's course, yea, and also command that

justice,

peace and sobriety, be kept and practiced both among the seamen and

all

the passengers. "

Leo Pheffer

God, Caesar, and the

Constitution

p. 163

23. That " Had not the Roman government permitted free inquiry,

Christianity could never have been introduced. Had not free inquiry

been indulged at the era of the Reformation, the corruptions of

Christianity could not have been purged away. If it be restrained

now,

the present corruptions will be protected, and new ones encouraged.

Was

the government to prescribe to us our medicine and diet, our bodies

would be in such keeping as our souls are now. " , Jefferson,

Notes

on the State of Virginia.

24. That " The mental health system is a well-oiled machine that

destroys

the hopes and dreams of millions of vulnerable souls, wreaks havoc on

their bodies, and inducts them into becoming chronic mental

patients. " ,

Seth Farber, Madness, Heresy, and the Rumor of Angels: The Revolt

Against the Mental Health System, p.110. (Enclosure 1)

25. That " Psychiatric drugs and electroshock are spreading an

epidemic

of permanent brain damage. " , Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry, dust

jacket.

26. That " What also remains unmentioned in debates on drug

legalization

is that all loyal liberal-despotic psychiatrists--Grinspoon among

them--believe in forcing some of the most toxic drugs in our

pharmacopoeia down the throats of the most helpless people in the

country, rationalizing coercive drugging as the 'drug treatment of

psychotics.' Grinspoon never suggests a harmfulness tax for

Haldol. " ,

Szasz, Our Right to Drugs: The Case for a Free Market, p.108.

27. That " The most serious threat to good government and freedom in

America is not posed by evil-minded men and women. It is posed by

legislative and judicial activists and other sincere persons of the

best

intentions, who are bent on remaking America in the image of their

own

thinking. They lack faith in the capacity of people to be the

masters

of their own fates, and the captains of their own souls, and insist

that

government assume the task of controlling their thoughts and managing

their lives. " Senator Sam J. Ervin Jr., Preserving the Constitution,

p.169.

28. That " Typical of the utter fraudulence of the Clinton health-care

plan is the line about 'asking everyone to pay his fair share.'

Government is not about 'asking.' It is about telling--and about

punishing those who do not obey. " , Sowell, editorial, The

Virginian Pilot, June 10, 1994. (Enclosure 2)

29. That " The new Nero will approach us with the silky manners of a

doctor. " , C.S. .

SECOND CLAIM

1. That the Plaintiff is a citizen of the United States of America

and

has been so continuously since his birth on January 13, 1949 at New

London, Connecticut.

2. That a position as officer in the United States Coast Guard is an

office and/or public trust in the context of the Religious Test

Clause

of Article. VI, Section 3 of the United States Constitution.

3. That alcohol rehabilitation treatment in the United States

Navy/Coast

Guard was at the time of the Plaintiff's discharge from active duty,

based on the coerced beliefs and practices of the spiritual,

religious,

and dogmatic principles of the Alcoholics Anonymous program including

mandatory attendance at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings which opened

with

all present reciting, in unison, the Serenity Prayer, and closed with

all present standing in a circle and reciting, in unison, the Lord's

Prayer.

4. That the United States Coast Guard's policy of discharge for not

completing such treatment as described above is in violation of the

Religious Test Clause of Article. VI, Section 3 of the United States

Constitution ( V. Laird, at 293, footnote 63).

5. That the Plaintiff was subjected to and refused such Religious

Test

and therefore was consequently discharged from active duty.

WHEREFORE the Plaintiff prays that:

1. He be placed on the permanent retired list of the United States

Coast

Guard and enjoy all benefits including full retirement pay for the

amount due one retired at the rank of Lieutenant (03).

2. He be granted in lump sum payment back retirement pay for the

above

stated rank from September 15, 1986 to the date that he receives his

first regular retirement check.

3. He be awarded such other relief as the Court deems just.

This the 12th day of

September

1994

______________________________

Tommy G. Perkins

215 Harrell Street

City, NC 27909

>

> > > What advice would you have, Dr. Talmadge, for those who did

suffer from

> > treatment

> > > facilities that offered nothing but high-priced 12-step

remedies and who did

> > so in

> > > an extremely coercive environment?

> >

> > Ms. Kelsey,

> >

> > I have previously expressed my contempt for hospitals that

blurred the boundary

> > with 12-Step and appropriated these approaches for profit. As I

said, that is

> > about big business, not about AA. As a surveyor for the Joint

Commission on

> > Accreditation of Health Care Organizations, I have had occasion

to visit many

> > treatment programs across the country. I mention this not to

boast, but simply

> > to stress that my work has involved what we call quality

assurance, which

> > includes tremendous emphasis on patient rights and the protection

of patients

> > from harm. Any treatment program based on an extremely coercive

environment

> > would be seriously at risk for losing its accreditation (and its

ability to stay

> > in business).

> >

> > At the same time, it is my experience that unhappy people have a

strong tendency

> > to blame their circumstances, their families, and external forces

for what is

> > wrong. This is particularly true for addicts and alcoholics, by

the way.

> >

> > My advice is threefold.

> >

> > First, take responsibility for what has happened. That would

include the

> > selection of an inferior treatment facility. If you were coerced

to go there,

> > taking responsibility would mean being accountable for the

behavior that got you

> > sent there. No one likes to hear that, but the advice holds up

over time. I am

> > not blaming the person with the problem -- far from it. But I am

saying that the

> > person with the problem, however we choose to define it, must take

> > responsibility for creating the situation. We are not victims.

> >

> > Second, examine the payoff in staying angry about what happened

instead of

> > getting your life together in the present, going ahead, and

learning from your

> > experience. When people hang on to resentment and anger, there's

almost always a

> > big payoff for doing so. Among other things, when we do that we

get to be right,

> > and for many people being right is more important than being

happy. If you have

> > any doubt about this, read a dozen or so posts recently published

on this list.

> >

> > Third, and this is probably the most important, practice

forgiveness. People

> > have treated you (or someone) badly. Forgive them. The only

reason to carry on

> > and refuse to forgive is to perpetuate the suffering. This is a

piece of

> > personal advice, and it does not address whatever need you may

feel to crusade

> > or to protect and defend others. All of us crusaders must always

look carefully

> > at our motives. Sometimes the crusade is about getting even, not

about making

> > the world a better place. Revenge doesn't help anyone.

Forgiveness and taking

> > responsibility makes the world a better place.

> >

> > And remember, free advice is worth somewhat less than what you

pay for it!

> >

> > warm regards

> >

> > T.

> >

> > --

> > M. Talmadge, M.D.

> > Associate Professor of Psychiatry

> > & Director, Addiction Psychiatry Fellowship Program

> > University of Texas Southwestern Medical School

> > Dallas, Texas

[Guest guest]

My response would be that the world has become easier to comprehend

since I placed responsibility for misdiagnosis and resulting

mistreatment of my mild depression in 1984 where it belongs: with the

undertrained, undereducated Employee Assistance Program (EAP)

counselor who offered only 12 step treatment. It's not unreasonable,

as a consumer of health services, to assume that the professional I

consult is at least as well-informed as I am about mental health.

Further, I did take steps to protect myself from this ill-advised

treatment. I expressed my own view of what my problem was, and my

disapproval of 12 step chemical dependency treatment; I was not

offered an alternative. I was not court-ordered for any reason. An

intake evaluation indicated I was not chemically dependent.

In hindsight, it's easy to see what I should have done differently.

The main thing I should NOT have done is placed my trust in an

incompetent counselor. I should have run, not walked, out of that

clinic as soon as my self-report was rejected. So I do take

responsibility for my choices. However, I see no corresponding

acceptance of responsibility on the part of the treatment industry or

organizational AA, for inadequately discharging THEIR obligation to

me. Ineffective treatment would be one thing; but 12 step treatment

actually worsened my condition, and I was coerced to express

gratitude

for being harmed. I consider myself a survivor of treatment.

My own experience took place over 15 years ago. I'm certain I could

not bring charges; even if I could, I don't think I'd want to. I only

began dealing with this situation last year, because up until 1999 I

took full responsibility for everything that happened. Based on what

I've learned in the past year, it appears to me that the overuse of

12

step treatment is creating several counterproductive attitudes in the

population it is supposed to serve. Powerlessness, helplessness, and

lack of accountability do not help a person to deal with their

problems in a healthy way, or to live as independently as possible.

Priorities seem to become distorted, rather than clarified, by

involvement in 12 step groups.

Looking to the future, my own as well as the communities in which I

live, it is clear that everyone involved in *A and the treatment

industry continues to avoid accountability for the problems they

created in the lives of people like me, and blame us as individuals

for placing our trust in authority figures like the EAP counselor I

worked with. I haven't yet figured out how I can best work to remedy

this situation. Perhaps I am not moving fast enough for Dr. Talmadge,

but I fail to see how I owe any supporter of 12 step treatment

_anything_.

Judith

>

> > My advice is threefold.

> >

> > First, take responsibility for what has happened. That would

include the

> > selection of an inferior treatment facility. If you were coerced

to go there,

> > taking responsibility would mean being accountable for the

behavior that got you

> > sent there. No one likes to hear that, but the advice holds up

over time. I am

> > not blaming the person with the problem -- far from it. But I am

saying that the

> > person with the problem, however we choose to define it, must take

> > responsibility for creating the situation. We are not victims.

> >

> > Second, examine the payoff in staying angry about what happened

instead of

> > getting your life together in the present, going ahead, and

learning from your

> > experience. When people hang on to resentment and anger, there's

almost always a

> > big payoff for doing so. Among other things, when we do that we

get to be right,

> > and for many people being right is more important than being

happy. If you have

> > any doubt about this, read a dozen or so posts recently published

on this list.

> >

> > Third, and this is probably the most important, practice

forgiveness. People

> > have treated you (or someone) badly. Forgive them. The only

reason

to carry on

> > and refuse to forgive is to perpetuate the suffering. This is a

piece of

> > personal advice, and it does not address whatever need you may

feel to crusade

> > or to protect and defend others. All of us crusaders must always

look carefully

> > at our motives. Sometimes the crusade is about getting even, not

about making

> > the world a better place. Revenge doesn't help anyone.

Forgiveness

and taking

> > responsibility makes the world a better place.

> >

> > And remember, free advice is worth somewhat less than what you

pay

for it!

> >

> > warm regards

> >

> > T.

> >

> > --

> > M. Talmadge, M.D.

> > Associate Professor of Psychiatry

> > & Director, Addiction Psychiatry Fellowship Program

> > University of Texas Southwestern Medical School

> > Dallas, Texas

[Guest guest]

You see that's what I like about you Tommy. You don't ask for much and you

give so much in return.

> Re: Big time grouper urges forgiveness

>

>

> Ken,

>

> Pass my web site on to him and ask him to read the first four Szasz

> quotes on the Selected Quotes page. Then ask him how his credentials

> compare to those of Szasz as outlined in Who's Who in America. Then

> pass Perkins vs. Pena on to him and ask for his comments on this kind

> of not for profit trickment. Then ask him to read 's book.

> Then tell him that my crusade goes on.

>

> http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/index.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

Warning: This response is trifling, childish, churlish, boorish and is

indicative of my distaste for the psychiatric profession. As such it's very

likely to annoy you. It's a small measure of the temporary insanity with

which I'm currently afflicted that I'm even responding to the mucky muck.

That and I kind of like the word mucky muck.

Read at your own risk.

In order to respond to this I'd have to nitpick him to death. For example

what does it mean to be " extremely cohersive " . I would imagine that it's

not enough to be cohersive they have to be " extremely chohersive " to suffer

the consequences. And what are the consequences for being extremely

cohersive. Well according to him the consequence is risking loosing their

accreditation. Not loosing mind you just risking loosing it. Which makes

me want to ask the next question. How many has he personally recommended

loosing their credentials? For that matter how many have lost their

credentials or been refused accreditation as result of those surveys?

Accept responsibility for choosing an inferior treatment facility. Like most

people in need of one know what the hell they should be looking for. also

it smacks of " You get what you pay for "

> Big time grouper urges forgiveness

>

>

> Hello everyone,

>

> The following was posted by a Dr. Talmadge on addict-l who is a

> big muckymuck in

> addiction

> treatment and an AA member. Does anyone have any comment they'd

> like me to forward

> to him at addict-l?

>

> Ken

>

>

> > Ms. Kelsey,

> >

>

> >

> > At the same time, it is my experience that unhappy people have

> a strong tendency

> > to blame their circumstances, their families, and external

> forces for what is

> > wrong. This is particularly true for addicts and alcoholics, by the way.

Apparently addicts and alcoholics are more human than humans?

> > My advice is threefold.

> >

> > First, take responsibility for what has happened. That would include the

> > selection of an inferior treatment facility. If you were

> coerced to go there,

> > taking responsibility would mean being accountable for the

> behavior that got you

> > sent there. No one likes to hear that, but the advice holds up

> over time. I am

> > not blaming the person with the problem -- far from it. But I

> am saying that the

> > person with the problem, however we choose to define it, must take

> > responsibility for creating the situation. We are not victims.

Please disregard the cohersive nature of the treatment or it's religious

nature or if you most notice it at all be assured it's your fault you're

even in this mess to begin with. I know you don't like to hear that but

let's face it if you could handle your liquor/drugs you wouldn't be here so

please stop whining about your current treatment and concentrate on how you

brought it on yourself. Don't go blaming this on us.

This makes me wonder if one of the survey questions is: Does the facility

encourage patients to take responsibility for their behavior or does it

teach the disease concept and powerlessness concept through XA.

> > Second, examine the payoff in staying angry about what happened

> instead of

> > getting your life together in the present, going ahead, and

> learning from your

> > experience. When people hang on to resentment and anger,

> there's almost always a

> > big payoff for doing so. Among other things, when we do that we

> get to be right,

> > and for many people being right is more important than being

> happy. If you have

> > any doubt about this, read a dozen or so posts recently

> published on this list.

There is no such thing as justifiable anger mister. Get on with the

business of your life now and stop living in the past. Sure you may be

right but are you happy? Please keep in mind I'm not averse to you being

happy it's just that I'd rather me be happy so make me happy by being happy

about your current situation.

> > Third, and this is probably the most important, practice

> forgiveness. People

> > have treated you (or someone) badly. Forgive them. The only

> reason to carry on

> > and refuse to forgive is to perpetuate the suffering. This is a piece of

> > personal advice, and it does not address whatever need you may

> feel to crusade

> > or to protect and defend others. All of us crusaders must

> always look carefully

> > at our motives. Sometimes the crusade is about getting even,

> not about making

> > the world a better place. Revenge doesn't help anyone.

> Forgiveness and taking

> > responsibility makes the world a better place.

I'm beginning to wonder why he keeps putting a moral face on a secular

problem. You're forced into treatment? Hey forgive the rat bastards for

they truly do not know what they do. Forced to attend XA? You gotta let go

man or you're just going to keep suffering.

As if forgiving is going to get you out of the current situation.

> >

> > And remember, free advice is worth somewhat less than what you

> pay for it!

>

I really can't explain this but I'm taken with a fit of laughter every time

I read that last sentence.

I'm feeling the need to apologize now but In my defense I did warn you at

the very beginning of this message.

[Guest guest]

---

>Hello everyone,

>

>The following was posted by a Dr. Talmadge on addict-l who is a big muckymuck

in

>addiction

>treatment and an AA member. Does anyone have any comment they'd like me to

forward

>to him at addict-l?

>

>Ken

>

--------------------

Ken -- I wept when I read Talmadge's cruel post. The hospital facility I

and others in my agency were coerced to attend for 9 months was also JCAHCO

accredited. It meant nothing. The facility had a contract with my agency

guaranteeing them payment if they would agree to provide 9 months of " treatment "

to every employee sent there. And every employee who had a single " positive "

random test was sent there, regardless of whether they even came close to

meeting the criteria for alcohol/drug abuse or dependence. The treatment was

entirely 12-step based and was identical for everyone, and any expression of

personal opinion deviating from what was presented, or questioning of anything

the counselors said or did, resulted in threats of being reported to the agency

EAP as " non-compliant " , which of course meant not being allowed back to work.

Employees were encouraged to lie, to betray their true selves, to constantly

guess what the counselors wanted to hear so they could mouth the words and get

that precious " compliance " report sent monthly to the agency EAP. Many

employees were forced to go on Welfare due to not being allowed to work, and

most had had acceptable to excellent job performance records. This program

destroyed marriages, families, and self-respect. I actually did write a letter

of protest to JCAHCO, but never got a response.

I tried to take responsibility for my single misbehavior, but was told

repeatedly I WASN'T responsible, because a " disease " made me do it, and that I

should be " grateful " to the EAP for " helping " me. I am NOT responsible for the

sadism of my EAP or the treatment counselors, nor for the fraud perpetrated at

taxpayers' expense by this facility and its contract with my agency.

I do NOT forgive the EAP or the treatment facility. I do NOT practice

" acceptance " of unethical behavior perpetrated by authority figures who abuse

their power. Such " acceptance " would be against my religious and cultural

tradition.

Rita

p.s. Would Dr. Talmadge give the same " forgive, don't take action " advice to

rape victims?

>

> " M. Talmadge, M.D. " wrote:

>

>> > What advice would you have, Dr. Talmadge, for those who did suffer from

>> treatment

>> > facilities that offered nothing but high-priced 12-step remedies and who

did

>> so in

>> > an extremely coercive environment?

>>

>> Ms. Kelsey,

>>

>> I have previously expressed my contempt for hospitals that blurred the

boundary

>> with 12-Step and appropriated these approaches for profit. As I said, that is

>> about big business, not about AA. As a surveyor for the Joint Commission on

>> Accreditation of Health Care Organizations, I have had occasion to visit many

>> treatment programs across the country. I mention this not to boast, but

simply

>> to stress that my work has involved what we call quality assurance, which

>> includes tremendous emphasis on patient rights and the protection of patients

>> from harm. Any treatment program based on an extremely coercive environment

>> would be seriously at risk for losing its accreditation (and its ability to

stay

>> in business).

>>

>> At the same time, it is my experience that unhappy people have a strong

tendency

>> to blame their circumstances, their families, and external forces for what is

>> wrong. This is particularly true for addicts and alcoholics, by the way.

>>

>> My advice is threefold.

>>

>> First, take responsibility for what has happened. That would include the

>> selection of an inferior treatment facility. If you were coerced to go there,

>> taking responsibility would mean being accountable for the behavior that got

you

>> sent there. No one likes to hear that, but the advice holds up over time. I

am

>> not blaming the person with the problem -- far from it. But I am saying that

the

>> person with the problem, however we choose to define it, must take

>> responsibility for creating the situation. We are not victims.

>>

>> Second, examine the payoff in staying angry about what happened instead of

>> getting your life together in the present, going ahead, and learning from

your

>> experience. When people hang on to resentment and anger, there's almost

always a

>> big payoff for doing so. Among other things, when we do that we get to be

right,

>> and for many people being right is more important than being happy. If you

have

>> any doubt about this, read a dozen or so posts recently published on this

list.

>>

>> Third, and this is probably the most important, practice forgiveness. People

>> have treated you (or someone) badly. Forgive them. The only reason to carry

on

>> and refuse to forgive is to perpetuate the suffering. This is a piece of

>> personal advice, and it does not address whatever need you may feel to

crusade

>> or to protect and defend others. All of us crusaders must always look

carefully

>> at our motives. Sometimes the crusade is about getting even, not about making

>> the world a better place. Revenge doesn't help anyone. Forgiveness and taking

>> responsibility makes the world a better place.

>>

>> And remember, free advice is worth somewhat less than what you pay for it!

>>

>> warm regards

>>

>> T.

>>

>> --

>> M. Talmadge, M.D.

>> Associate Professor of Psychiatry

>> & Director, Addiction Psychiatry Fellowship Program

>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical School

>> Dallas, Texas

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

In my UK rehab their was a christian chapel in the basement and the

" spiritual counsellor " was a catholic priest. They made a big deal

abt

ther fact that he was defrockled for alcoholism, rather less abt the

fact that got to wear a frock again. If Id realized he was still

Catholic, I would have refused to see him.

P.

> Ken, since Dr. T. is a member of JCAHO, he might be interested in

> knowing that I was in a JCAHO-accredited facility right in his own

> state of Texas and that I found that environment quite coercive.

Not

> only did they make it clear that remaining an atheist or agnostic

was

> NOT an option, they did next to nothing to accommodate any patients

> who wanted to take a non-spiritual path to sobriety. They allowed

the

> patients' MANDATORY AA meetings to end with the Lord's Prayer,

> despite objections from one patient (me) that it was a slap in the

> face of non-Christians. They required us to sit through daily

> hourlong lectures from a " volunteer " Stepper (who also ran the

> hospital giftshop)about Step One in which he flagrantly

proselytized

> for Christianity. They had Christian crosses prominently displayed

in

> many places and a HUGE cross up on " Serenity Hill " but not a single

> symbol of any other major religion. Last time I checked their Web

> site, they were starting a new special program for Christian

> patients, but again NOTHING for Jews, Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists or

> (God forbid) atheists or agnostics.

>

> The name of the place is La Hacienda and it is located in Hunt,

> Texas. Be sure he gets that part.

>

> By the way, " LaHa " is NOT affiliated with any church. Also, going

to

> LaHa was no choice of mine. It was the ONLY hospital my employer

> would allow me to choose in order to detox from heroin.

[Guest guest]

" Such " acceptance "

would be against my religious and cultural tradition " -- well said, Rita --

this is precisely my objection to swallowing any old muck in the name of

recovery -- XA is a totally quietist " religion " -- don't concern your sick

little head with the world -- it's all inside you, an ideal code for any

political order as no one is going to stand up against anything if they're

sold on unconditional " acceptance " -- I agree there are clear limts to

" acceptance " , and for me as a thinking Christian that limit is reached

pretty quickly when you have to sit through some of the mindless BS about

HPs and " any god will do " and God knows what that you get covered in the

rewms.

won't go on, but I'm with you all the way in my sick failure to " accept "

lies, blackmail, injury, distorted stats, bullying, S-M psychos and any old

filth dressed up as personal growth in XA

yours

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Big time grouper urges forgiveness

>Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 16:36:59 -0700

>

>

>

>---

>

>

>

>

>

> >Hello everyone,

> >

> >The following was posted by a Dr. Talmadge on addict-l who is a big

>muckymuck in

> >addiction

> >treatment and an AA member. Does anyone have any comment they'd like me

>to forward

> >to him at addict-l?

> >

> >Ken

> >

>--------------------

>

> Ken -- I wept when I read Talmadge's cruel post. The hospital

>facility I and others in my agency were coerced to attend for 9 months was

>also JCAHCO accredited. It meant nothing. The facility had a contract

>with my agency guaranteeing them payment if they would agree to provide 9

>months of " treatment " to every employee sent there. And every employee who

>had a single " positive " random test was sent there, regardless of whether

>they even came close to meeting the criteria for alcohol/drug abuse or

>dependence. The treatment was entirely 12-step based and was identical for

>everyone, and any expression of personal opinion deviating from what was

>presented, or questioning of anything the counselors said or did, resulted

>in threats of being reported to the agency EAP as " non-compliant " , which of

>course meant not being allowed back to work. Employees were encouraged to

>lie, to betray their true selves, to constantly guess what the counselors

>wanted to hear so they could mouth the words and get that precious

> " compliance " report sent monthly to the agency EAP. Many employees were

>forced to go on Welfare due to not being allowed to work, and most had had

>acceptable to excellent job performance records. This program destroyed

>marriages, families, and self-respect. I actually did write a letter of

>protest to JCAHCO, but never got a response.

>

> I tried to take responsibility for my single misbehavior, but was told

>repeatedly I WASN'T responsible, because a " disease " made me do it, and

>that I should be " grateful " to the EAP for " helping " me. I am NOT

>responsible for the sadism of my EAP or the treatment counselors, nor for

>the fraud perpetrated at taxpayers' expense by this facility and its

>contract with my agency.

>

> I do NOT forgive the EAP or the treatment facility. I do NOT

>practice " acceptance " of unethical behavior perpetrated by authority

>figures who abuse their power. Such " acceptance " would be against my

>religious and cultural tradition.

>

>Rita

>

>p.s. Would Dr. Talmadge give the same " forgive, don't take action " advice

>to rape victims?

>

>

> >

> > " M. Talmadge, M.D. " wrote:

> >

> >> > What advice would you have, Dr. Talmadge, for those who did suffer

>from

> >> treatment

> >> > facilities that offered nothing but high-priced 12-step remedies and

>who did

> >> so in

> >> > an extremely coercive environment?

> >>

> >> Ms. Kelsey,

> >>

> >> I have previously expressed my contempt for hospitals that blurred the

>boundary

> >> with 12-Step and appropriated these approaches for profit. As I said,

>that is

> >> about big business, not about AA. As a surveyor for the Joint

>Commission on

> >> Accreditation of Health Care Organizations, I have had occasion to

>visit many

> >> treatment programs across the country. I mention this not to boast, but

>simply

> >> to stress that my work has involved what we call quality assurance,

>which

> >> includes tremendous emphasis on patient rights and the protection of

>patients

> >> from harm. Any treatment program based on an extremely coercive

>environment

> >> would be seriously at risk for losing its accreditation (and its

>ability to stay

> >> in business).

> >>

> >> At the same time, it is my experience that unhappy people have a strong

>tendency

> >> to blame their circumstances, their families, and external forces for

>what is

> >> wrong. This is particularly true for addicts and alcoholics, by the

>way.

> >>

> >> My advice is threefold.

> >>

> >> First, take responsibility for what has happened. That would include

>the

> >> selection of an inferior treatment facility. If you were coerced to go

>there,

> >> taking responsibility would mean being accountable for the behavior

>that got you

> >> sent there. No one likes to hear that, but the advice holds up over

>time. I am

> >> not blaming the person with the problem -- far from it. But I am saying

>that the

> >> person with the problem, however we choose to define it, must take

> >> responsibility for creating the situation. We are not victims.

> >>

> >> Second, examine the payoff in staying angry about what happened instead

>of

> >> getting your life together in the present, going ahead, and learning

>from your

> >> experience. When people hang on to resentment and anger, there's almost

>always a

> >> big payoff for doing so. Among other things, when we do that we get to

>be right,

> >> and for many people being right is more important than being happy. If

>you have

> >> any doubt about this, read a dozen or so posts recently published on

>this list.

> >>

> >> Third, and this is probably the most important, practice forgiveness.

>People

> >> have treated you (or someone) badly. Forgive them. The only reason to

>carry on

> >> and refuse to forgive is to perpetuate the suffering. This is a piece

>of

> >> personal advice, and it does not address whatever need you may feel to

>crusade

> >> or to protect and defend others. All of us crusaders must always look

>carefully

> >> at our motives. Sometimes the crusade is about getting even, not about

>making

> >> the world a better place. Revenge doesn't help anyone. Forgiveness and

>taking

> >> responsibility makes the world a better place.

> >>

> >> And remember, free advice is worth somewhat less than what you pay for

>it!

> >>

> >> warm regards

> >>

> >> T.

> >>

> >> --

> >> M. Talmadge, M.D.

> >> Associate Professor of Psychiatry

> >> & Director, Addiction Psychiatry Fellowship Program

> >> University of Texas Southwestern Medical School

> >> Dallas, Texas

> >

>

>

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>Before you buy.

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com