Guest guest Posted August 18, 2000 Report Share Posted August 18, 2000 Hi all.. Does anyone know where the AA symbol originated from? Also, am I mistaken, or isn't there a 'G' in its center? I checked out the pewter figures, and my first reaction was one of astonishment...such AGONY! But, you guys had me laughing so hard I wanted to yell ENOUGH!!...:-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic dissected the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). god, christ and holy ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 I think the 'Unity, Service, and Recovery' reply is the most accurate so far given the paper I found this PM. It concerns the relationship between the New Thought Movement (Christian Science, Scientology, all 'Unity' churches, etc.) and AA. I also found a link ( http://world.std.com/~albright/james.html ) that has a link that states that the thinking of Bill W was profoundly impacted by (New Thought Movement). Paper is: http://www.psyc.leeds.ac.uk/staff/kenh/VALPUB.HTM entitled 'New Thought and 12-step Recovery from Addiction'. New Thought religions have been identified by some as cults, and they themselves profess 'mysticism' as part of their beliefs. There is no doubt, ladies and gents, that AA is a religion... Ellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 These words from A Letter Written by a Delegate that attended the 1987 General Service Conference Pat R: " The reason cited for this change was in Australia where two entities had been given (licensed?) the right to print in a parallel situation, of an Intergroup occurring first followed years later by a Conference Structure, to what occurred in the US in the early years and post-Conference years when many Intergroups did their own printing. Isn't that one of the reasons behind ultimately the Circle and Triangle sign, " Conference Approved, " etc.? " Having a little difficulty understanding the intent here though. I confess that the below seems to make more sense but not to Pat. Would appreciate it if you find it if you could forward the particulars. > Re: AA Symbol > > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic > dissected > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). god, > christ and holy ghost. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 will do, but i wont be able to to untill tuesday at earliest. im away from home at moment. > > Would appreciate it if you find it if you could forward the particulars. > > > Re: AA Symbol > > > > > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic > > dissected > > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). god, > > christ and holy ghost. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 At 11:29 PM 8/18/00 EDT, intelle@... wrote: >Hi all.. > >Does anyone know where the AA symbol originated from? Also, am I mistaken, >or isn't there a 'G' in its center? I've never seen a 'G' in the center of AA's symbol, maybe you're thinking of another symbol... There's some writings about the origin of the symbol, I think from " The Language of The Heart " , a book collection of Bill 's AA Grapevine articles. I seem to remember there being some 'divine' or religious origins, but was, of course, vague and surely didn't write nearly as much as he knew about it. ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 I think it is not so subtle reference to the Christian trinity as well. I seem to remember it as having been portrayed with a word written along each side too, but I forget what they were. > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic> > dissected> > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). god,> > christ and holy ghost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 unity, service, recovery > I think it is not so subtle reference to the Christian trinity as well. I seem to remember it as having been portrayed with a word written along each side too, but I forget what they were. > > > > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic > > > dissected > > > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). > god, > > > christ and holy ghost. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 This guy is a wacko! Here are his instructions on breaking down resistance " by codependents " to attending Al-Anon. He should be arrested and prosecuted for causing misery in people's lives. http://www.psyc.leeds.ac.uk/staff/kenh/ALANON-web.htm Because denial is one of the hallmarks of co-alcoholism, physicians should not be fooled by patients who screen positive on the questionnaire but who state that their family life is " normal. " It is not unusual to encounter patients who spend much of their waking time worrying about the future and trying to control or cover-up their partners’s drinking sprees, only to report that everything at home is under control. Putting on a normal facade is a way of life for the sick and suffering co-alcoholic. This false and fragile sense of control is simply a coping mechanism designed to defend against anxiety associated with the threat of total chaos. Obviously, patients who are exhibiting denial have difficulty seeing a need for help, and are therefore resistent to treatment. If the patient is resistant to referral, the physican should be very careful not to pressure them in an effort to force attendence. Patients who attend Al-Anon reluctantly are unlikely to benefit, because they have not completed the prerequisite first step of the 12 step program. These patients have failed to accept the reality that, by themself, they are completely powerless over their situation. Although surface level " compliance " may be induced by the physician, deep and lasting therapeutic effects only come from " surrender, " which is generated internally. A widely repeated truism heard at Al-Anon meetings is that " Al-Anon is for people who want it, not for people who need it. " Nevertheless, if the medical practioner adopts a gentle approach, they might possibly " plant a seed " with their patient by disseminating information about the nature of co-alcoholism. Perhaps the most frequent source of resistance to attending Al-Anon meetings is the patient’s unwavering belief that the drinker is the sole problem, and that their own suffering would be allieviated if only the drinker sobered up. Typically, the hidden agenda of these resistant patients is to use the physican to exert still greater influence on drinker to control their drinking or quit altogether. A useful prescription for treating this type of co-alcoholic thinking and manipulating would be to gently invite the patient to participate in the Sober Imagery Exercise. According to this exercise, the patient is asked to pretend for a moment that their loved one had indeed stopped drinking. As an aid to the exercise, previous periods of abstinence could be brought to mind. After allowing the patient to visualize the imaginary scenerio at home, the physician could then ask the patient whether their life would be " normal, " pointing out that it probably would not. The patient is invited to consider the possibility that he or she might continue to react in the same old self-defeating and controlling ways. For example, it could be suggested that they might continue to walk on egg shells, and that they might continue to be fearful of saying the wrong thing, and that they might continue to be overprotective and overresponsible for the alcoholic (so as to prevent a relapse). Again, this exercise should only be used with the intent of gently invalidating a resistant patient’s theory regarding the locus of their problem. Obviously, a number of different techniques could be used to plant seeds of doubt. Utimately, however, " surrender " must originate from within the patient. > Re: Re: AA Symbol > > > I think the 'Unity, Service, and Recovery' reply is the most > accurate so far > given the paper I found this PM. It concerns the relationship > between the > New Thought Movement (Christian Science, Scientology, all 'Unity' > churches, > etc.) and AA. I also found a link ( > http://world.std.com/~albright/james.html ) that has a link that > states that > the thinking of Bill W was profoundly impacted by > (New Thought > Movement). > > Paper is: http://www.psyc.leeds.ac.uk/staff/kenh/VALPUB.HTM > entitled 'New Thought and 12-step Recovery from Addiction'. > > New Thought religions have been identified by some as cults, and they > themselves profess 'mysticism' as part of their beliefs. > > There is no doubt, ladies and gents, that AA is a religion... > > Ellen > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 > This guy is a wacko. I concur. But he appears to very influential. The following abstract shows what he is up to--(Warning may induce undue anger and resentment or vomitting) A Spiritual Interpretation of the 12-Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous: From Resentment to Forgiveness to Love by E. Hart kenh@... page 25-39 Journal of Ministry in Addiction & Recovery Vol. 6 no. 2 1999 Abstract This essay describes how Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) has split into secular ( " psychological " ) and spiritual ( " religious " ) branches, and how little is known, from a scientific point of view, about the planned program of spiritual awakening embodied in the 12-steps, which characterize " authentic " AA. It also outlines a program of scientifically-grounded research which seeks to promote greater understanding of some of the spiritual and religious processes and outcomes associated with " doing " Steps 8 and 9 (the " forgiveness " steps). Specifically, the paper describes theoretical issues and expected benefits associated with the Forgiveness for Alcoholics Treatment Study (FATS). The FATS project is a randomized controlled clinical trial, funded by the Templeton Foundation, designed to document the benefits of psychological and spiritual ( " religious " ) approaches to facilitating forgiveness among AA members who suffer from dysfunctionally high levels of interpersonal anger and resentment. It is concluded that the project may represent a possible way in which the love among people who have failed to live in harmony with the Divine Plan. ******************************************************************** Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2000 Report Share Posted August 19, 2000 I have gone into this web site for the University of Leeds , Department of Psychology .If you just go to Dr Ken Harts pages , you will find that he is VERY heavily into 12 Step stuff for addiction and alcohol , and nowhere is there a mention of any other way . This is very dangerous because the psychologists that are involved are well respected . I wonder what my partner will make of the fact that he must be a co-alcoholic with a disease , and that if he resisted referral to Alanon , he would be labelled non compliant and in denial . British footballers are notorious for their drink problems , and todays papers are full of a strory about a recovering one . He wants to set up a treatment facility for 12 people , so that famous footballers can recover with other footballers . It will be based around what Clapton has set up in Antigua . I went into the Crossroads site , very beautiful place , and I wouldnt mind a month there myself . However the treatment philosophy is totally 12 Step based , its only been open 2 years . I just cant imagine Gascoine , et al sitting around reciting the mantras of the steps , perhaps they could compare their salaries ! Once again no alternatives are addressed . However I digress , what I have found on this site alarms me , and I think Ill write to this researcher . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 ...I agree with you that the research on this site is very alarming...I presented it because often the most pro-12-step sites can provide the best history of the organization...despite themselves. The papers he has written on the religious origins of AA could be useful for supporting the allegation that AA is a religious group and that no govenment funding should be spent on anything remotely resembling 12-step philosophy. Ellen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 Jerry...thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 To All: To get a closer perspective on the unofficial official recalling how the big book and the twelve steps came about you could go to the site of one K. who is an archivist of AA, but who does not gloss over much in his historical accounting of the beginning of AA. You can see his account if you go to http://www.bigbooks.org/aabbsg/chs/chs04.htm. That is accounting of the writing of the big book. this may shed so light upon what you are all discussing. I think you will find that Bill W. took most of his info for the 12 steps straight out of Varieties of Religious Experiences and tenets of the Oxford Group. Jerry > ...I agree with you that the research on this site is very > alarming...I presented it because often the most pro-12-step sites can > provide the best history of the organization...despite themselves. > > The papers he has written on the religious origins of AA could be useful for > supporting the allegation that AA is a religious group and that no govenment > funding should be spent on anything remotely resembling 12-step philosophy. > > Ellen > > --------------------------------------------------------------------<e|- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 Jerry wrote: > To All: > > To get a closer perspective on the unofficial official recalling how the big > book and the twelve steps came about you could go to the site of one > K. who is an archivist of AA, but who does not gloss over much in > his historical accounting of the beginning of AA. You can see his account if > you go to http://www.bigbooks.org/aabbsg/chs/chs04.htm. That is accounting > of the writing of the big book. > > this may shed so light upon what you are all discussing. I think you will > find that Bill W. took most of his info for the 12 steps straight out of > Varieties of Religious Experiences and tenets of the Oxford Group. > > Jerry Jerry, Thanks for the link. There were several things at the site which I found of value, not the most important of which was Bill himself referring to group members as groupers. While this might not mean much to anyone else, it is a term I've been using for a long time, having got it from Marjorie on in " Saints Run Mad, " a book about the Oxford Group. I've caught more heat for it and on several occasions have asked for a replacement term that would be shorter than listing (now) 1000+ Anonymous groups and Oxford Group itself. I never got any sort of reasonable suggestion. (Ernie Kurst and Lois have also used the term.) Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 Thanks Dave: I was looking at the back of a dollar bill, just now, and I noted the unfinished Pyramid in the circle with the eye of god in yet another pyramid hovering above the unfinished pyramid of stone. Discounting the the base of the pyramid with roman numerals printed on it there are 12 steps in the unfinished pyramid leading to the hovering eye of god. Additionally in a scroll below and partially surrounding the base of the unfinished pyramid are inscribed the words " Novus Ordo Seclorum " New World Order. > Re: AA Symbol > > > > > > > > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic > > > dissected > > > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). > god, > > > christ and holy ghost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2000 Report Share Posted August 20, 2000 Almost forgot to send this. The words " Annuit Coeptis " appear above the eye of god. Translation: " God has favored our undertakings " . > Re: AA Symbol > > > > > > > > > > > > i dont have it handy, but i have a small book where a critic > > > > dissected > > > > the aa logo, its a take off the holy trinity (suprise suprise). > > god, > > > > christ and holy ghost. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2000 Report Share Posted August 21, 2000 Hi Doug , What a lot of crap on that Uni site , I thought psychologists had more sense .. They get huge research grants for this as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2000 Report Share Posted August 21, 2000 Dear , DO write to these scientifically delinquent apologies for academics -- I was horrifed at this stuff, spouted forth like the gospel of feckin scientific truth from Univ Leeds -- UK universities are some time since dumbed down and gone to hell (I know this first hand in the Humanities) -- this is a sign of how far the rot of facile theory (mind plague of our times) has gone. They ought to be out on their a*rs*s -- this is disgusting, (Dr). >From: CATSJP1000@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: AA Symbol >Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2000 05:33:45 EDT > >I have gone into this web site for the University of Leeds , Department of >Psychology .If you just go to Dr Ken Harts pages , you will find that he is >VERY heavily into 12 Step stuff for addiction and alcohol , and nowhere is >there a mention of any other way . >This is very dangerous because the psychologists that are involved are well >respected . >I wonder what my partner will make of the fact that he must be a >co-alcoholic >with a disease , and that if he resisted referral to Alanon , he would be >labelled non compliant and in denial . >British footballers are notorious for their drink problems , and todays >papers are full of a strory about a recovering one . >He wants to set up a treatment facility for 12 people , so that famous >footballers can recover with other footballers . It will be based around >what > Clapton has set up in Antigua . >I went into the Crossroads site , very beautiful place , and I wouldnt mind >a >month there myself . However the treatment philosophy is totally 12 Step >based , its only been open 2 years . >I just cant imagine Gascoine , et al sitting around reciting the >mantras of the steps , perhaps they could compare their salaries ! Once >again >no alternatives are addressed . >However I digress , what I have found on this site alarms me , and I think >Ill write to this researcher . > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2000 Report Share Posted August 21, 2000 Oh well, in for a penny in for a pound -- personally I believe Islam Inc. is mixed up in all this New World Order 12step invasion of the mind-snatchers stuff -- the dumbing down of the Western world is necessary so Islam Inc can go on selling us drugs and petrol in face of obvious global catastrophe (Baudelaire -- " There is something inherently diabolical about commerce. It is based on the understanding that you will give me more than I give you " -- _Journaux Intimes, Mon Couer Mis a Nu_) -- Islam is cheap PR stunt dreamed up by Mecca chamber of commerce in first place -- obviously got out of control and now grafted onto traditional occidental Satanist dollar bill Freemason style. Just a thought, . > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: <12-step-freeegroups> >Subject: Re: Re: AA Symbol >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 04:39:56 -0600 > >I am still amazed that " educated " proffesionals will buy into (and >tolerate) >this nonsense. It's no different than giving advice to Dr's on how to >convert patients to Islam or a political party. >Jim > > >----- Original Message ----- > > > > This guy is a wacko! Here are his instructions on breaking down >resistance > > " by codependents " to attending Al-Anon. He should be arrested and > > prosecuted for causing misery in people's lives. > > > > http://www.psyc.leeds.ac.uk/staff/kenh/ALANON-web.htm > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 Glad you liked it .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 , I am not sure what you are saying below, but since it is in response to my post, I felt I had to ask. If you are ridiculing a belief held by a few of us on this list, as opposed to any behavior or action taken (which it appears to me that you are), then you are no better than the stepnazis from other groups. Since when should anyone be condemned for a belief? If you are not, I apologize in advance. In any event, I would appreciate some clarification. Ellen doug_houston@... writes: >Paranoids Anon: > > 1) Admitted we liked weird paradigms > 2) Came to believe that our nutty ideas were true > 3) Made a conscious decision not to have out minds snatched > > -- the rest of the steps are SECRET, you just don't know who you're talking > to these days. There are no pewter figurines, but you may send me money > anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 Dear I think it may be stated as a fact that university education is not as we knew it, say, 15 years ago. The trend towards modular courses and pre-packed degrees began about then and this pick 'n' mix approach is now all you can have in the Humanities, which are awash with 2-D PC processed cardboard in lieu of ideas. The promotion of the 12steps by a major dept. of psychology is proof positive of how far the " dumbing down " in tertiary education has gone. It's getting like " Fahrenheit 451 " - soon none of the suckers will be able to read and there won't be any books, only islands of people who still know what thinking means, like in 12stepfree. . >From: CATSJP1000@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: AA Symbol >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 16:54:55 EDT > >Hi Doug , >What a lot of crap on that Uni site , I thought psychologists had more >sense >. >They get huge research grants for this as well > ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 Paranoids Anon: 1) Admitted we liked weird paradigms 2) Came to believe that our nutty ideas were true 3) Made a conscious decision not to have out minds snatched -- the rest of the steps are SECRET, you just don't know who you're talking to these days. There are no pewter figurines, but you may send me money anyway. Sometimes it feels like we're goldfish and one of us has just realized we're in this big tank, y'know . . . Nice to know I'm not in this alone, Best wishes, . >From: intelle@... >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Re: AA Symbol >Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2000 19:57:19 EDT > > and ...I think you are both right about the New World Order >and >AA being part of it. > >Ellen ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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