Re: Fwd: [newbbaa2000] some thoughts

[Guest guest]

Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the Oxford

Group in detail, as well as its history?

I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is actually

'Oxford Group' philosophy.

Thanks..!

Ellen

[Guest guest]

intelle@... wrote:

> Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the Oxford

Group in detail, as well as its history?

>

> I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is actually

'Oxford Group' philosophy.

>

> Thanks..!

> Ellen

Ellen,

Probably the two best outside perspectives on the Oxford Group are Marjorie

on's " Saints Run Mad " written in the

1930s and Tom Driberg's " The Mystery of Moral Re-Armament. "

From within the groups, " Soul Surgery, " a 1918 manual on how to convert, is

key to understanding many of AAs conversion

techniques. O.G. had a great deal of literature since all members were charged

with " carrying the message. "

Some others are:

" On the Tail of a Comet: The Life of Buchman, " Garth Lean

" The Open Secret of MRA " a counter to Tom Driberg's book above

and anything by Dick B.

Dick B. is an AA historian who thinks AA lost a lot from the original and

has access to the AA archives, so one will

see things there that aren't available anywhere else.

Ken Ragge

P.S. Can't forget to plug my chapter on the history of AA:

http://www.aakills.com/books/revealed.htm

[Guest guest]

Ken...thanks much! I actually have ordered your book, and went ahead and

read chapters 1 and 9 on your site. Very informative!

While there is no doubt that AA is a 'cult', I do have one question which I

haven't seen an answer for. It's this: With most cults it's obvious why

they are in existence...there is usually a leader, and this leader reaps the

rewards of the cult member activities in the form of money, sexual favors,

etc.

In the case of AA, however, I don't see such an obvious reason for it's

existence, short of some form of mind -control (control of the masses). While

the Big Book brings in money (as well as the Grapevine), and members do give

money at each meeting, it doesn't seem as if there is enough money floating

around to make anyone rich. While I know that Bill 's widow is

receiving (I assume she's still alive) royalties from the Big Book, who else

is actually benefitting from this organization?

I know there's an answer somewhere, but I can't seem to find it!

Thanks, Ken...I am looking forward to reading your entire book!

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Joe...thanks so much! I went and read much of Ken's site today...and plan on

investigating the sources both you and he provided.

thanks again!

Ellen

[Guest guest]

Rita...I am going to check out this site right now....thanks!

Ellen

> http://rita66.tripod.com/m-k/buchmanism.htm

[Guest guest]

Carl..thanks. I went and read this 10-page document and found it interesting

to read the history from the perspective of a fervent AA groupee.

Actually, the history points out in graphic detail the 'religious' aspects of

*A, lending support to the fact that *A should never be court-ordered, *A

groups should never sign court slips, and *A programs do not belong in rehabs.

Ellen

> One of the most detailed and informative histories on the net.

>

> http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/oxford.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

---

>Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the Oxford

Group in detail, as well as its history?

>

>I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is actually

'Oxford Group' philosophy.

>

---------------------

Hi Ellen (and list) --

In addition to Ken's site, try this:

http://rita66.tripod.com/m-k/buchmanism.htm

~Rita

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

[Guest guest]

Here's a fun pic of Buchman on the Moral Rearmament website. The Oxford

Group evolved into Moral Rearmament, which still exists. Buchman had a

thing for Oxford students. Also YMCA boys. Kind of a weird guy, like a

prototype for Jim Bakker.

http://www.mra.org.uk/general/founder.html

> >Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the

Oxford Group in detail, as well as its history?

> >

> >I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is

actually 'Oxford Group' philosophy.

> >

> ---------------------

>

> Hi Ellen (and list) --

>

> In addition to Ken's site, try this:

>

> http://rita66.tripod.com/m-k/buchmanism.htm

>

> ~Rita

>

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Before you buy.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

One of the most detailed and informative histories on the net.

http://www.recovery.org/aa/misc/oxford.html

>

>

> >Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the

Oxford Group in detail, as well as its history?

> >

> >I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is

actually 'Oxford Group' philosophy.

> >

> ---------------------

>

> Hi Ellen (and list) --

>

> In addition to Ken's site, try this:

>

> http://rita66.tripod.com/m-k/buchmanism.htm

>

> ~Rita

>

>

> --== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

> Before you buy.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >Here's a fun pic of Buchman on the Moral Rearmament website.

In addition to the links to the various affiliates, there is only one

link on the MRA web site--to AA.

[Guest guest]

The endorsement of the Nazi regime almost destroyed them. They

re not very pround of that chapter in their history. Remember that Henry Ford and a good many others of similar status made overtures to the Nazis. They would have been perfectly happy for Hitler to have won the war.I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to be very proud of their history!

[Guest guest]

i know what you mean, i was hoping for a little bit more info on

my particular brand of insanity, me being non-god controlled and

all....

also where is the moral facism we've all come to love about

frank anyhow? who are the god controlled yoot's of today

supposed to turn to for inspiration on creating a global, god

controlled dictatorship if it aint frank?

> I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to be very

proud of

> their history! I was looking for a historic article, something

along the

> lines of " Our founder Buchman discusses today's youth

with the

> Feuhrer " and it just isn't there...

>

> Joe B.

[Guest guest]

seriously, im pretty sure MRA (oxford group) is behind the current

push in some states to ignore the 1st amendment of the

constitution and post the 10 commandments (which is

suposedly the actual word of god after all) in public schools as

moral guidance, nevermind that at least 3 of commandments

speak directly about worshiping the christian god.

> i know what you mean, i was hoping for a little bit more info on

> my particular brand of insanity, me being non-god controlled

and

> all....

>

> also where is the moral facism we've all come to love about

> frank anyhow? who are the god controlled yoot's of today

> supposed to turn to for inspiration on creating a global, god

> controlled dictatorship if it aint frank?

>

>

> > I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to be

very

> proud of

> > their history! I was looking for a historic article, something

> along the

> > lines of " Our founder Buchman discusses today's

youth

> with the

> > Feuhrer " and it just isn't there...

> >

> > Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Nope it's not them. It's the Christian Coalition and Pat on, but they're about the same thing. We have them posted in our courthouse now. Also more and more front yards are sporting them on signs. But then this is the rural South.

Re: Fwd: [newbbaa2000] some thoughts

seriously, im pretty sure MRA (oxford group) is behind the current push in some states to ignore the 1st amendment of the constitution and post the 10 commandments (which is suposedly the actual word of god after all) in public schools as moral guidance, nevermind that at least 3 of commandments speak directly about worshiping the christian god.> i know what you mean, i was hoping for a little bit more info on > my particular brand of insanity, me being non-god controlled and > all....> > also where is the moral facism we've all come to love about > frank anyhow? who are the god controlled yoot's of today > supposed to turn to for inspiration on creating a global, god > controlled dictatorship if it aint frank?> > > > I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to bevery > proud of > > their history! I was looking for a historic article, something > along the > > lines of "Our founder Buchman discusses today's youth > with the > > Feuhrer" and it just isn't there...> > > > Joe B.

[Guest guest]

i'd swear in a news article i saw name moral rearmenment. i

suppose it could have been moral majority.

> > i know what you mean, i was hoping for a little bit more info

on

> > my particular brand of insanity, me being non-god controlled

> and

> > all....

> >

> > also where is the moral facism we've all come to love about

> > frank anyhow? who are the god controlled yoot's of today

> > supposed to turn to for inspiration on creating a global, god

> > controlled dictatorship if it aint frank?

> >

> >

> > > I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to be

> very

> > proud of

> > > their history! I was looking for a historic article,

something

> > along the

> > > lines of " Our founder Buchman discusses today's

> youth

> > with the

> > > Feuhrer " and it just isn't there...

> > >

> > > Joe B.

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

[Guest guest]

At 11:41 15/08/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Joe..can you suggest any good sources (perhaps on-line?) describing the

>Oxford Group in detail, as well as its history?

>

>I am sure you are right that much, if not most, of AA philosophy is

>actually 'Oxford Group' philosophy.

>

>

>Thanks..!

>Ellen

I think possibly Ken's site(s) might be a good place to start

http://www.cris.com/~kenr1/12_Steps/revealed.htm

http://www.aakills.com/

and others can probably offer some suggestions. There must be books but I

don't know if I have any details and if I have I don't know where. I don't

seem to have anything much bookmarked either. But here are a couple more

urls that might be of interest...

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~jkh8x/soc257/nrms/aa.html

http://skepdic.com/sat.html

http://www.seesharppress.com/

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

The Moral Majority went of of business a few years ago. But Jerry Falwell

is still around of course. He is pushing the posting of the ten

commandments too.

> i'd swear in a news article i saw name moral rearmenment. i

> suppose it could have been moral majority.

[Guest guest]

(and all list members)..

I'm all for the hypothesis that AA's 'just like controlling others', but I

can't seem to get something out of the back of my mind...is it possible that

AA is part of a much larger organization that is also into mind-control,

denegration of the human spirit, and ensurance of continued participation?

The reason I ask this is it seems rather strange that AA has gotten such a

toe-hold in virtually all aspects of government and the medical profession.

Not all states have the same mind-set as Texas, for instance, and it seems so

unlikely that a religion-based organization could have so much power without

a backing from something much larger...

Forgive me if I sound paranoid...I am really just after the truth....

Thanks!

Ellen

You put me in mind of an online critique of AA I read some time ago --

afraid I don't have the URL. The article concluded firmly that AA was a

cult -- mind control, exclusive belief system, etc. -- but the authors were

puzzled as there was no clear motive as with most cults for getting money or

other usual cult objectives (most of us here seem to agree that there's a

good amount of " sexual favours " stuff in the 13 th step practices). Anyway,

the article concluded that AAs just like controlling people, that it's their

buzz to have people fall into line and stay there in their bent little world

of half-truths, phoney humility, and not-religion. That makes sense to me

-- a lot of AAs build the castles of their recovering egos on the

foundations of the control of others that grows with group seniority.

[Guest guest]

At 17:29 15/08/00 -0500, you wrote:

>Here's a fun pic of Buchman on the Moral Rearmament website. The Oxford

>Group evolved into Moral Rearmament, which still exists. Buchman had a

>thing for Oxford students. Also YMCA boys. Kind of a weird guy, like a

>prototype for Jim Bakker.

>

>

>http://www.mra.org.uk/general/founder.html

I've looked at that site and it is odd- they don't seem to be very proud of

their history! I was looking for a historic article, something along the

lines of " Our founder Buchman discusses today's youth with the

Feuhrer " and it just isn't there...

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Probably because they were becoming fairly well known as the Moralistic

Minority.

> Re: Re: Fwd: [newbbaa2000] some thoughts

>

>

> The Moral Majority went of of business a few years ago. But Jerry Falwell

> is still around of course. He is pushing the posting of the ten

> commandments too.

>

>

> > i'd swear in a news article i saw name moral rearmenment. i

> > suppose it could have been moral majority.

[Guest guest]

Ellen

You put me in mind of an online critique of AA I read some time ago --

afraid I don't have the URL. The article concluded firmly that AA was a

cult -- mind control, exclusive belief system, etc. -- but the authors were

puzzled as there was no clear motive as with most cults for getting money or

other usual cult objectives (most of us here seem to agree that there's a

good amount of " sexual favours " stuff in the 13 th step practices). Anyway,

the article concluded that AAs just like controlling people, that it's their

buzz to have people fall into line and stay there in their bent little world

of half-truths, phoney humility, and not-religion. That makes sense to me

-- a lot of AAs build the castles of their recovering egos on the

foundations of the control of others that grows with group seniority.

.

>From: intelle@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Re: Fwd: [newbbaa2000] some thoughts

>Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 18:54:40 EDT

>

>Ken...thanks much! I actually have ordered your book, and went ahead and

>read chapters 1 and 9 on your site. Very informative!

>

>While there is no doubt that AA is a 'cult', I do have one question which I

>haven't seen an answer for. It's this: With most cults it's obvious why

>they are in existence...there is usually a leader, and this leader reaps

>the

>rewards of the cult member activities in the form of money, sexual favors,

>etc.

>

>In the case of AA, however, I don't see such an obvious reason for it's

>existence, short of some form of mind -control (control of the masses).

>While

>the Big Book brings in money (as well as the Grapevine), and members do

>give

>money at each meeting, it doesn't seem as if there is enough money floating

>around to make anyone rich. While I know that Bill 's widow is

>receiving (I assume she's still alive) royalties from the Big Book, who

>else

>is actually benefitting from this organization?

>

>I know there's an answer somewhere, but I can't seem to find it!

>

>Thanks, Ken...I am looking forward to reading your entire book!

>

>Ellen

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

intelle@... wrote:

> Ken...thanks much! I actually have ordered your book, and went ahead and

> read chapters 1 and 9 on your site. Very informative!

>

> While there is no doubt that AA is a 'cult', I do have one question which I

> haven't seen an answer for. It's this: With most cults it's obvious why

> they are in existence...there is usually a leader, and this leader reaps the

> rewards of the cult member activities in the form of money, sexual favors,

> etc.

>

> In the case of AA, however, I don't see such an obvious reason for it's

> existence, short of some form of mind -control (control of the masses). While

> the Big Book brings in money (as well as the Grapevine), and members do give

> money at each meeting, it doesn't seem as if there is enough money floating

> around to make anyone rich. While I know that Bill 's widow is

> receiving (I assume she's still alive) royalties from the Big Book, who else

> is actually benefitting from this organization?

>

> I know there's an answer somewhere, but I can't seem to find it!

>

> Thanks, Ken...I am looking forward to reading your entire book!

>

> Ellen

>

Ellen,

That is something that in a lot of ways still puzzle me. One of the

problems

is that the anti-cult groups generally put money at a much higher priority than

I

do. They focus on groups that steal your mind in order to get your money but

tend to ignore groups that simply steal one's mind. They would, for example,

perhaps have had no problem with Maoism and re-education. They weren't after

money. Nor would they, I think, have had a problem with the Ayatollah.

However,

to me, using " thought reform " techniques to steal someone's mind is the real

crime -- to Hell with the money.

The other problem is the way xa is organized. Almost everything they do

outside of actual meetings is " not AA. " For example, the NCADD (formerly NCA

and

before that something else) was founded by AA member Marty Mann. She used the

AA

name in her efforts to " educate " America. That was a no no. It was fixed and

she and NCA still continue with their education effort but they " aren't AA. " No

treatment center, even if staffed and owned entirely by step-group members and

the only treatment is AA indoctrination is AA by AA's self-serving definition.

If one looks outside the groups themselves, which is how they define themselves

to what members do to " carry the message, " there is the multi-billion dollar

treatment industry and a whole lot of money from every level of government for

" helping those with alcoholism and addictions. "

How does one pin down where they start and end? One can't ask, because

" Anonymity " prevents public disclosure. Are you an AA profiting from the

halfway

house you own? No, I'm not AA. (But is an NA, or Alanon, or one of 1,000 other

groups.) So there really is plenty of money.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

true ken, i think money is a low priority as well. often they have to

steal your mind first to get your money anyhow.

dave

[Guest guest]

AA itself makes a couple of million every year form book sales, many

of them block sales to rehabs who throw them in with the $30K

treatment. Without it, GSO would shortfall by abt 1M. Basically AA

is a multi-level marketing scheme, essentially carrying on where

Oxford Grouper Henry Ford left off - make your product cheap but sell

it in vast amounts.

P.

>

> > Ken...thanks much! I actually have ordered your book, and went

ahead and

> > read chapters 1 and 9 on your site. Very informative!

> >

> > While there is no doubt that AA is a 'cult', I do have one

question which I

> > haven't seen an answer for. It's this: With most cults it's

obvious why

> > they are in existence...there is usually a leader, and this

leader

reaps the

> > rewards of the cult member activities in the form of money,

sexual

favors,

> > etc.

> >

> > In the case of AA, however, I don't see such an obvious reason

for

it's

> > existence, short of some form of mind -control (control of the

masses). While

> > the Big Book brings in money (as well as the Grapevine), and

members do give

> > money at each meeting, it doesn't seem as if there is enough

money

floating

> > around to make anyone rich. While I know that Bill 's

widow

is

> > receiving (I assume she's still alive) royalties from the Big

Book, who else

> > is actually benefitting from this organization?

> >

> > I know there's an answer somewhere, but I can't seem to find it!

> >

> > Thanks, Ken...I am looking forward to reading your entire book!

> >

> > Ellen

> >

>

> Ellen,

>

> That is something that in a lot of ways still puzzle me. One

of

the problems

> is that the anti-cult groups generally put money at a much higher

priority than I

> do. They focus on groups that steal your mind in order to get your

money but

> tend to ignore groups that simply steal one's mind. They would,

for

example,

> perhaps have had no problem with Maoism and re-education. They

weren't after

> money. Nor would they, I think, have had a problem with the

Ayatollah. However,

> to me, using " thought reform " techniques to steal someone's mind is

the real

> crime -- to Hell with the money.

>

> The other problem is the way xa is organized. Almost

everything

they do

> outside of actual meetings is " not AA. " For example, the NCADD

(formerly NCA and

> before that something else) was founded by AA member Marty Mann.

She used the AA

> name in her efforts to " educate " America. That was a no no. It

was

fixed and

> she and NCA still continue with their education effort but they

" aren't AA. " No

> treatment center, even if staffed and owned entirely by step-group

members and

> the only treatment is AA indoctrination is AA by AA's self-serving

definition.

> If one looks outside the groups themselves, which is how they

define

themselves

> to what members do to " carry the message, " there is the

multi-billion dollar

> treatment industry and a whole lot of money from every level of

government for

> " helping those with alcoholism and addictions. "

>

> How does one pin down where they start and end? One can't ask,

because

> " Anonymity " prevents public disclosure. Are you an AA profiting

from the halfway

> house you own? No, I'm not AA. (But is an NA, or Alanon, or one of

1,000 other

> groups.) So there really is plenty of money.

>

> Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

Hi :

Add to this mix:

AA is their religion

12-step ounselling is abt the only job where addiction fucked up

career is an advantage; it may be the only professional job they can

get.

They haver put in hundreds of hours into something they believe that

without they will ineevitably drink/use themselves to death.

Their gfamily members may also believe this and reject them if tehy

change their mind.

Not surprising they resist the way they do is it?

P.

> Howdy Ellen:

>

> This may sound a bit simple on my part but I sort of just concluded

that in

> the case of XA self perpetuation was the name of the game. " Be

fruity and

> multiply upon the face of the earth "

>

> The original AA's weren't averse to playing it fast and funny with

the

> truth. I don't claim any specific knowledge of early stats but I'm

sure

> that they kept tabs (probably not terribly accurate) as to the

supposed

> efficacy of AA.

>

> Add anonymity to the mix as well as a few well placed AA's sporting

the

> latest cooked stats and presto bango bingo boingo before you know it

it's

> all the rage. I'm sure it didn't hurt for America to see, what AA

considers

> to be low bottom drunks, who's lives had been turned around praising

the

> name of AA with quite a few God's thrown in the mix.

>

> The only thing left is to ruthlessly suppress any alternatives.

That last

> was probably the easiest to do. People tend to get locked into

their

> comfort zones and resist change no matter how necessary until

they're forced

> into making them.

>

> I've personally seen people expend 3 to 4 hundred times the energy

and

> resources proving that their current methodology was correct and no

change

> should be made then it would have taken to make a small improvement.

I

> never could understand that mentality.

>

> Try convincing someone who's spent their entire professional life as

an

> addiction specialist that everything they've been thought, believed

in, and

> worked for was wrong. They won't accept it no matter how much

evidence you

> throw at them. Partially because it's human nature but mostly

because in

> accepting it they would be invalidating their professional lives to

that

> point. Not to mention they'd have to take personal responsibility

for

> spreading miss-truths.

>

> By this point how many millions if not billions of dollars have gone

into

> the status quo? If it's all wrong who gets the credit for it? I

seriously

> Don't think we're going to see anyone volunteering for that position

any

> time soon.

>

> Professional pride can be a motherfu'ker.

>

>

>

> > Re: Re: Fwd: [newbbaa2000] some thoughts

> >

> >

> > (and all list members)..

> >

> > I'm all for the hypothesis that AA's 'just like controlling

> > others', but I

> > can't seem to get something out of the back of my mind...is it

> > possible that

> > AA is part of a much larger organization that is also into

mind-control,

> > denegration of the human spirit, and ensurance of continued

participation?

> >

> > The reason I ask this is it seems rather strange that AA has

> > gotten such a

> > toe-hold in virtually all aspects of government and the medical

> > profession.

> > Not all states have the same mind-set as Texas, for instance, and

> > it seems so

> > unlikely that a religion-based organization could have so much

> > power without

> > a backing from something much larger...

> >

> > Forgive me if I sound paranoid...I am really just after the

truth....

> >

> > Thanks!

> >

> > Ellen

> >