Re: Question on DMSA/ALA dose

[Guest guest]

> Hi,

>

> I am confused. I thought the amount of DMSA or ALA you take does

not

> really matter, only the frequency does - 3 to 4 h for DMSA and 3h

for

> ALA. There have been a lot of different messages the past couple of

> days on dosage and I'd like to hear opinions on:

> Wow some important questions, my read on this from the files and

general concenus is that the frequency is important so that you don't

let the circulating amount of chelator drop to the point where metal

can be redistrubuted to CNS etc., mostly relating to the half-life of

ALA/DMSA (the half life of ALA is 1-2 hours so by 3-4 hours there is

less there and by 5-8 hour probablely little there). However the

absolute amount of metal being bond and then excreted will be related

to the dose of the chelator, the higher the dose the more metal that

potentially can be excreted.The problem is that each body can excrete

only so much metal at any time so a big dose of chelator may present

alot of metal to the kidneys and gut for excretion but the kidney and

gut may not beable to handle that much...so instead of excretion the

metal floats along being bound and unbound from the chelator. There

will be a dose ..different for each person...where the amount of

metal presented for excretion matches the ability of the kidneys and

gut to excrete..that is the perfect dose because there should be few

side effect and optimal excretion. Unfortunately the only way to

figure out this dose is by trial and error. I think the 1/8 to 1/4 mg

per pound of body wieght of ALA and 1/4 mg to 1/2 mg per pound for

DMSA recommended in the files gives the starting ballpark amount to

be close to this perfect dose...for my son we started to high a 1/4

mg per pound and we are now down to 1/8 mg per pound.

> Is there a " minimum " dose? By minimum I mean that below that dose,

> nothing happens.

>

> Do you increase the dose round after round and watch for side

effects

> to determine the optimal dose?

This is one way to do it, I guess as parents we want the metal out

ASAP so we tend to error on the too high of dose side, thinking that

the higher the dose the sooner the metal will be out...but a couple

of bad chelation weekends cured me of that.

>

> Do you increase the dose when you do not see anymore improvements?

This is what most people do , but reading what the adults who

chelate have said the lasat few days I wonder if the variability of

response between rounds with the same doses means we should be more

patient at each dose level.

>

> When do you introduce ALA?

Everyone is different...because my son had only distant mercury

exposure and no filling etc we started ALA right away..in fact we are

one of the ALA only people.

>

> How do you decide on your DMSA + ALA dose? Is the ALA dose a

certain

> percentage of the DMSA dose?

Andy in the files recommends either 1:1 or 2:1 (DMSA to ALA)

>

> Thanks,

> Frederique

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/03 7:11:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

moriam@... writes:

<< I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA),

Well, SOME people may start with this. But people use all different

ratios. Many use equal parts of each. And some never use DMSA!

Moria >>

Would this ratio decrease the yeast flare up issues? I went back to DMSA for

my son because it got so bad with ALA...he did well this week with DMSA. He

has some " moments " but he's again more social (something I noticed when we

started with DMSA). I didn't notice any improvements with ALA; just lots of gut

issues causing major problems with behavior. But I do want to add in ALA at some

point...he's on 10mg DMSA right now so I was going to see if I could get him

to 25mg & then add in 10mg ALA....might we have less gut issues that way?

Thanks, Michele

[Guest guest]

> Hi,

Hi.

>

> I am confused. I thought the amount of DMSA or ALA you take does not

> really matter, only the frequency does - 3 to 4 h for DMSA and 3h for

> ALA.

both matter. The dose matters. The timing matters.

> There have been a lot of different messages the past couple of

> days on dosage and I'd like to hear opinions on:

>

> Is there a " minimum " dose? By minimum I mean that below that dose,

> nothing happens.

probably, but I don't know what it is. I think it depends what

you mean by " nothing " . The effect will get progressively less

as you lessen the dose.

>

> Do you increase the dose round after round and watch for side effects

> to determine the optimal dose?

You can adjust the dose. I would tend to stick with a dosage

or change it once in a while. I would not increase it EACH

round. The idea is to get a dose that has a tolerable level

of side effects. Enough to be effective, but not so much

that the side effects drive you too nuts.

>

> Do you increase the dose when you do not see anymore improvements?

that would be one way to do it.

>

> When do you introduce ALA?

whenever you want, unless you have any of the following:

1. high hair copper

2. amalgam dental fillings (don't chelate at all)

3. exposure to mercury in the last few months. This includes

amalgam replacement or receiving injection with thimerosal.

>

> How do you decide on your DMSA + ALA dose? Is the ALA dose a certain

> percentage of the DMSA dose?

Andy's guidelines for dose are listed here:

/files/Andy_dose_sched

If you have questions about what it says, please post again.

best,

Moria

[Guest guest]

--- In , " moriamerri " <moriam@e...>

wrote:

> > Is there a " minimum " dose? By minimum I mean that below that

dose,

> > nothing happens.

>

> probably, but I don't know what it is. I think it depends what

> you mean by " nothing " . The effect will get progressively less

> as you lessen the dose.

>

> >

> > Do you increase the dose round after round and watch for side

effects

> > to determine the optimal dose?

>

> You can adjust the dose. I would tend to stick with a dosage

> or change it once in a while. I would not increase it EACH

> round. The idea is to get a dose that has a tolerable level

> of side effects. Enough to be effective, but not so much

> that the side effects drive you too nuts.

That is what I meant by " nothing " happens. It is that the amount is

not enough to be effective.

> > When do you introduce ALA?

>

> whenever you want, unless you have any of the following:

> 1. high hair copper

> 2. amalgam dental fillings (don't chelate at all)

> 3. exposure to mercury in the last few months. This includes

> amalgam replacement or receiving injection with thimerosal.

We have #3.... exposure ended 3 1/2 months ago, but he was exposed

for a very long time. We are going to start round 6 today with DMSA

only. I still cannot decide on when to add ALA. I am so scared it

could cause regression. On the other hand, most probably, most of the

mercury is in his brain...

> >

> > How do you decide on your DMSA + ALA dose? Is the ALA dose a

certain

> > percentage of the DMSA dose?

>

> Andy's guidelines for dose are listed here:

> /files/Andy_dose_sched

> If you have questions about what it says, please post again.

I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA), and

sometimes even have to go down to 4:1, because of side effects. So if

you take 5 mg of DMSA (that is my 2 yo son's dose!), then it is 1.25

mg of ALA.

On the other hand, 1 mg is 3 times lower than 1/8 of his body weight

(Andy's lowest range)...

Thanks,

Frederique

[Guest guest]

> I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA),

Well, SOME people may start with this. But people use all different

ratios. Many use equal parts of each. And some never use DMSA!

Moria

[Guest guest]

Michele,

My son reacted badly to ALA both times that we tried to give it to him.

We have done DMSA alone for about a year with very few bad reactions.

My Dr. says (and I know this is contrary to some opinions) that it's

better to use DMSA alone until you get the levels of bad metals down to

very low levels. I asked Dr. Cave about this and she said the same

thing.

You might want to consider just giving DMSA for a while. Remember, each

child is unique and may have sensitivities to something that may or may

not bother someone else.

I know alot of people put alot of stock in ALA, but my child has been

unable to tolerate ALA so far.

kelly

>

> Would this ratio decrease the yeast flare up issues? I went back to

> DMSA for

> my son because it got so bad with ALA...he did well this week with

> DMSA. He

> has some " moments " but he's again more social (something I noticed

> when we

> started with DMSA). I didn't notice any improvements with ALA; just

> lots of gut

> issues causing major problems with behavior. But I do want to add in

> ALA at some

> point...he's on 10mg DMSA right now so I was going to see if I could

> get him

> to 25mg & then add in 10mg ALA....might we have less gut issues that

> way?

>

> Thanks, Michele

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Michele,

How much does your child weigh? weighs 50 pounds and is

tolerating a much larger dose than 10 mg.

>

>

> Would this ratio decrease the yeast flare up issues? I went back to

> DMSA for

> my son because it got so bad with ALA...he did well this week with

> DMSA. He

> has some " moments " but he's again more social (something I noticed

> when we

> started with DMSA). I didn't notice any improvements with ALA; just

> lots of gut

> issues causing major problems with behavior. But I do want to add in

> ALA at some

> point...he's on 10mg DMSA right now so I was going to see if I could

> get him

> to 25mg & then add in 10mg ALA....might we have less gut issues that

> way?

>

> Thanks, Michele

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> > I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA),

>

> Well, SOME people may start with this. But people use all different

> ratios. Many use equal parts of each. And some never use DMSA!

>

> Moria

Sorry Moria, I should have been more precised. I was actually talking

about people who have a child similar to mine, young, with a quite

recent exposure. My son had high mercury level in his blood and in

his hair in March.

What I am curious to know is how someone decides on a certain dose

and how someone decides on a certain ratio with DMSA (for those who

also use DMSA). What are the reasons behind this choice? I understand

there are a lot of ratios, and I guess they all make sense depending

on the person's profile. I'd love to hear experiences, even if they

do not match my son's profile. It helps me to better understand all

this.

Thanks,

Frederique

[Guest guest]

Hi

I'm now doing 2:1 ALA (50mg)/DMSA (25mg), great report from school - will

post it later

Mandi

PS Sam is about 60 pounds

> I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA), and

> sometimes even have to go down to 4:1, because of side effects. So if

> you take 5 mg of DMSA (that is my 2 yo son's dose!), then it is 1.25

> mg of ALA.

> On the other hand, 1 mg is 3 times lower than 1/8 of his body weight

> (Andy's lowest range)...

>

[Guest guest]

> Do you increase the dose round after round and watch for side

effects

> to determine the optimal dose?

>

> Do you increase the dose when you do not see anymore improvements?

>

I use ALA and I increased the dose when it did not appear that the

current dose was causing any improvements. This generally occurred

every 10 rounds or so.

> When do you introduce ALA?

I use ALA only, so I " introduced " it for the first round.

Dana

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/27/03 8:27:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

k_l_meyer@... writes:

<< Michele,

My son reacted badly to ALA both times that we tried to give it to him.

We have done DMSA alone for about a year with very few bad reactions.

My Dr. says (and I know this is contrary to some opinions) that it's

better to use DMSA alone until you get the levels of bad metals down to

very low levels. I asked Dr. Cave about this and she said the same

thing.

You might want to consider just giving DMSA for a while. Remember, each

child is unique and may have sensitivities to something that may or may

not bother someone else.

I know alot of people put alot of stock in ALA, but my child has been

unable to tolerate ALA so far.

kelly

>>

I know he'll need ALA at some point, but perhaps he does need to stick with

DMSA for quite a while before he'll be able to handle it... My second son

couldn't handle ALA either...thanks for posting!

Michele

[Guest guest]

> >

> > > I noticed that people usually starts with a 2:1 ratio (half ALA),

> >

> > Well, SOME people may start with this. But people use all different

> > ratios. Many use equal parts of each. And some never use DMSA!

> >

> > Moria

>

> Sorry Moria, I should have been more precised. I was actually talking

> about people who have a child similar to mine, young, with a quite

> recent exposure. My son had high mercury level in his blood and in

> his hair in March.

> What I am curious to know is how someone decides on a certain dose

> and how someone decides on a certain ratio with DMSA (for those who

> also use DMSA). What are the reasons behind this choice? I understand

> there are a lot of ratios, and I guess they all make sense depending

> on the person's profile. I'd love to hear experiences, even if they

> do not match my son's profile. It helps me to better understand all

> this.

>

> Thanks,

> Frederique

I see you got a number of answers from people about this.

Really, I think there are a lot of ways that people decide

on dosage and ratio. Some trial and error, adjusting

lower for side effects, or higher after several rounds

at a given dose. Since I never used DMSA, I never

decided on a ratio.

If your son's exposure is recent, in the last few months,

I would suggest not using ALA AT ALL. How long exactly

to wait I don't know precisely, but Andy suggests " at

least " 3 months (after exposure) before using ALA.

best,

Moria