Re: Dana, I am confused?

[Guest guest]

Mel, I feel the need to defend Dana.

I did not think her son was totally recovered and that is not what

I got from her web page- What I got was a well organized women

willing to answers question about thing she has done to help her

son. Autism is a puzzle parents need to put the pieces together-

some parents are lucky and do one treatment and it kicks every thing

into place and the childs recovers- this really does not happen

very often- I do not beleave chelation alone will recover many -it

is one of the steps- and parents need to find the next step. My 2

cents Ann

[Guest guest]

> I read a recent reply you wrote to another person on the listserve,

detailing

> your own experience.

> What I am confused about is that I have always thought (from your

previous

> e-mail's and website) that you son was completely heal, or out of

the

> autistic spectrum.

He no longer qualifies as autistic. That is how I generally word it.

He is not " indistinguishable " . And he is still subject to regression

but not nearly so much as before. My #3 is no longer subject to

regression, which means that if he gets yeast or something like that,

he will have bm issues but no behavior or regression issues. #2 does

not regress nearly so much as he did before, but he will still show

some slight behavior and regression issues with yeast or a few foods.

But about 80% of the time, he acts like your basic 3yo child. No

behavior issues, no stims, he would not qualify as autistic if he was

being dx today.

But he is VERY far behind in language.

> But after reading the recent details I am not so sure if I feel the

same way.

> If your son is cured, why are you still chelating him?

He still has a few food issues. And he is still subject to

regression. And his language is still far behind. With each round of

chelation, his language improves, he tolerates more foods, and his

language improves. So he is still metal toxic, even tho it no longer

shows up as autistic behaviors and other issues.

I will occasionally use the word " cured " in certain contexts, but he

is not age-appropriate or indistinguishable. But he is no longer

" autistic " .

Not sure I made my point clear, but hopefully somewhat.

> Is a child who is 7 years old but only communicates at a 3 year old

level

> considered normal or out of the spectrum?

Normal, no. Out of spectrum, depends on who you ask.

> Certainly I have a lot to learn. But I want to believe there are

people out

> there who have been totally healed.

There are, and I have received emails from several. And I have met a

few personally. My son started as very low functioning, so he has a

LOT of ground to cover to catch up. In fact, this round 64 I have

extended a few days, because he has been making HUGE gains in language

in the last day or two that I don't want to stop the round!

> Did I read your other e-mail incorrectly?

I don't know.

Dana

[Guest guest]

Dana Said:>>>>>>>I will occasionally use the word " cured " in certain contexts,

but he is not age-appropriate or indistinguishable. But he is no longer

" autistic " .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm just as curious as Mel on your stance that you feel your son is no longer

autistic at 7, despite communicating at a 3 year old level. I'm not trying to

be argumentive, so please don't take it that way, just curious. I say curious,

because at your website you make mention of your opinion of low, mid, and high

functioning children and how you would classify them. I believe you said that a

mid functioning child would still need assistance with some skills in and out of

the classroom, so therefore they would not be considered high functioning. A

high functioning child would need no assistance and could function in a regular

ed classroom. So, I take it that your son that is 7, yet speaking at a 3 year

old level, needs no assistance at all. See, I found your view interesting,

because I would consider my son to be high functioning, and not cured, despite

having Asperger's. He speaks age appropriately, has no outward signs of autism,

although he will sometimes talk to you as though you can read his mind. He is

definitely immature. He needs no assistance with self help skills, but he has

an aide at school, because his behavior is still very challenging. I would

consider him to be indistinguishable, but not necessarily age appropriate due to

his behavior, but still on the spectrum. I think by the standards you listed on

your site, he would be considered mid-functioning, because he is not

mainstreamed and has an aide to keep him in check. What are your thoughts?

a

[Guest guest]

Hi

I am new here, but not to ASD. It is quite reasonable to have an individual

move off the spectrum and still have issues. The issues may be associated with

a language disorder or something else. It may also be, that there are not

enough issues to warrant a diagnosis of ASD, but the person still needs

assistance in some areas. It is also quite reasonable to have an individual

with no really 'obvious' issues, but still be on the spectrum. For an

individual such as this, you would have to have a closer look at how someone

communicates and socialises etc.

Hope that brings some perspective to the discussion.

Loretta

Re: [ ] Re: Dana, I am confused?

Dana Said:>>>>>>>I will occasionally use the word " cured " in certain contexts,

but he is not age-appropriate or indistinguishable. But he is no longer

" autistic " .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I'm just as curious as Mel on your stance that you feel your son is no longer

autistic at 7, despite communicating at a 3 year old level. I'm not trying to

be argumentive, so please don't take it that way, just curious. I say curious,

because at your website you make mention of your opinion of low, mid, and high

functioning children and how you would classify them. I believe you said that a

mid functioning child would still need assistance with some skills in and out of

the classroom, so therefore they would not be considered high functioning. A

high functioning child would need no assistance and could function in a regular

ed classroom. So, I take it that your son that is 7, yet speaking at a 3 year

old level, needs no assistance at all. See, I found your view interesting,

because I would consider my son to be high functioning, and not cured, despite

having Asperger's. He speaks age appropriately, has no outward signs of autism,

although he will sometimes talk to you as though you can read his mind. He is

definitely immature. He needs no assistance with self help skills, but he has

an aide at school, because his behavior is still very challenging. I would

consider him to be indistinguishable, but not necessarily age appropriate due to

his behavior, but still on the spectrum. I think by the standards you listed on

your site, he would be considered mid-functioning, because he is not

mainstreamed and has an aide to keep him in check. What are your thoughts?

a

[Guest guest]

> I'm just as curious as Mel on your stance that you feel your son is no longer

autistic at 7, despite communicating at a 3 year old level.

As Dana, I feel the same way about my son. Actually I am pretty sure. He is not

autistic anymore. He cannot speak/communicate normally, but he is definitely not

autistic anymore. He might still be somewhere on the spectrum, but I doubt it

very much. I believe that whatever problem he has now, has nothing to do with

the spectrum.

My son is 4 1/2 yo.

Valentina

[Guest guest]

--- In , " T & L Bryson " <tnltech@o...>

wrote:

It is quite reasonable to have an individual move off the spectrum

and still have issues. The issues may be associated with a language

disorder or something else. It may also be, that there are not

enough issues to warrant a diagnosis of ASD, but the person still

needs assistance in some areas. It is also quite reasonable to have

an individual with no really 'obvious' issues, but still be on the

spectrum. For an individual such as this, you would have to have a

closer look at how someone communicates and socialises etc.

>

I have to agree with this. My son is very high functioning and is

indistinguishable in many areas, but he still has signficant social

issues. I could probably go label shopping and find someone who would

dx him as LD or ADHD, but that still wouldn't explain all his

behavior. When he was 4, his language was advanced for his age, but

he would ramble on endlessly about things like state capitals and the

moons of Jupiter. He couldn't interact normally with other kids. He's

doing better, but he still can't play with other kids for very long

before he gets confused and either wanders off or does something

inappropriate. He still has a lot of trouble understanding another

person's point of view.

I could easily imagine a child with language issues or other

developmental problems who would play normally with toys or respond

normally to other people (perhaps younger than his chronological age,

but still like a typical child.) What my son used to do and still

does sometimes is not typical for any age child. In my opinion, the

social issues are what make the difference between a dx of autistic

spectrum and something else like language delay.

YMMV,

Kat

[Guest guest]

--- In , pjand3kids <pjand3kids@j...>

wrote:

> I'm just as curious as Mel on your stance that you feel your son is

no longer autistic at 7, despite communicating at a 3 year old level.

I'm not trying to be argumentive, so please don't take it that way,

just curious.

No problem. I will copy the diagnostic criteria to the bottom of this

reply, and give you the specific reasons why I believe he is no longer

autistic.

His ATEC score when he was dx was 98, considered severely autistic.

Now his ATEC score, last I did it, was 14, which is the lowest range

[0-30].

>> I say curious, because at your website you make mention

of your opinion of low, mid, and high functioning children and how you

would classify them. I believe you said that a mid functioning child

would still need assistance with some skills in and out of the

classroom, so therefore they would not be considered high functioning.

This was my son's best possible prognosis, generally a " group home "

type of setting. His " more probable " prognosis was institution.

Now this is my son's worst case prognosis.

>>He speaks

age appropriately, has no outward signs of autism, although he will

sometimes talk to you as though you can read his mind. He is

definitely immature. He needs no assistance with self help skills,

but he has an aide at school, because his behavior is still very

challenging. I would consider him to be indistinguishable, but not

necessarily age appropriate due to his behavior, but still on the

spectrum.

If you removed the behavior issues but kept the other issues, would

you consider him " cured " ?

>> I think by the standards you listed on your site, he would

be considered mid-functioning, because he is not mainstreamed and has

an aide to keep him in check. What are your thoughts?

If he is not in a regular classroom, then he would " probably " be

mid-functioning per my opinion that you are referencing. But he

sounds like on the high end of " mid " , or perhaps even on the low end

of " high " .

I wrote that page to show that functioning level is not associated

with the number of stims a person has. I also mentioned that I know

people who go against my definitions.

A person can be " mid-functioning " and still not autistic. For

example, many Down Syndrome people would fall into that category.

They need help with daily things, or work environments. Right now my

son would fall into this category, he needs help but in general he is

self-sufficient and would be able to participate in something similar

to a sheltered work environment. But he no longer qualifies as

autistic, and hopefully he will advance beyond " mid-functioning " as he

grows up.

Here is the autism and PDD dx criteria. I will note where my son

falls.

>>DSM-4 Criteria for Autistic Disorder and Pervasive Developmental

Disorder, Not Otherwise Specified (PDD NOS)

>>To be diagnosed with autistic disorder at least one sign (each) from

parts A, B, and C must be present plus at least six overall.

Those meeting fewer criteria are diagnosable as PDD NOS.

As you can tell, he still might have a dx of PDD, altho probably

" global delays " would be better for him. Or simply a " speech delay "

dx, which is what I am wanting for him right now.

>>A. Qualitative impairments in reciprocal social interaction:

>> 1.Marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors

such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture,

and gestures to regulate social interaction.

No problems, altho at age 3 level.

>> 2.Failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to

developmental level

No problems, he can maintain peer relationships to developmental level

of age 3.

>> 3.Lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or

achievements with others.

Absolutely not a problem.

>> 4.Lack of socioemotional reciprocity.

No problems.

>>B. Qualitative impairments in communication:

>> 1.A delay in, or total lack of the development of spoken language

(not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through

alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime).

Very delayed, as previously described.

>> 2.Marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a

conversation with others despite adequate speech.

Not applicable.

>> 3.Stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic

language.

Sometimes, altho not usually. This would be one of his regression

indicators.

>> 4.Lack of varied spontaneous make- believe play or social

imitative play appropriate to developmental level.

Slightly delayed compared to average 3yo.

>>C. Restricted, repetitive, and stereotyped patterns of behavior,

interest, or activity:

>> 1.Encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and

restricted patterns of interest, abnormal either in

intensity or focus.

No problems.

>> 2.An apparently compulsive adherence to specific nonfunctional

routines or rituals.

Strangely enough, he has never had this problem.

>> 3.Stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or

finger flapping, or twisting, or complex whole body

movements).

Not usually, only with regression.

>> 4.Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects.

Not really, I have not noticed this in him.

You can decide whether or not you believe he would still qualify as

" on spectrum " . My opinion is that he does not, because he basically

acts like a younger child, but does not have the other " issues "

commonly associated with autism, nor does he have the 6 criteria, with

at least one from each category, as specified above.

Dana

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>If you removed the behavior issues but kept the other issues, would you

consider him " cured " ?>>>>>>

Oh god yes! I might consider him quirky or odd, but definitely not autistic.

I've mentioned before that he is very, very well behaved for me, just not

others, including his Dad.

>>>>>>If he is not in a regular classroom, then he would " probably " be

mid-functioning per my opinion that you are referencing.>>>>>

I would disagree, because the school and I want him in regular ed, but again,

the knee jerk behavior causes problems for others, therefore, we won't place him

there. His academic ability is far past his peers, and his social behavior is

more on the level of a Kindergartner, rather than a first grader. His language

has never been delayed. I know it is considered part of the spectrum, but I

would say the label that best fits him is non-verbal learning disorder.

>>>>No problems, he can maintain peer relationships to developmental level of

age 3.>>>

But it states appropriate developmental level, doesn't that mean 7 years, not 3?

>>>>>>>You can decide whether or not you believe he would still qualify as " on

spectrum " . My opinion is that he does not, because he basically

acts like a younger child, but does not have the other " issues "

commonly associated with autism, nor does he have the 6 criteria, with

at least one from each category, as specified above.>>>>>>

Ok, so that's the difference in your and my opinion. You are using the DSM-IV

criteria on him, but applying his age at the developmental level that you feel

he functions at, whereas, I apply the actual chronological age to it, which is

how a doctor would use it. So, by your standards, if you met my son, you would

not feel he is autistic, but I still feel he is....just as I would probably feel

yours is. Interstingly enough, my son no longer qualifies for the 6 criteria,

but like your son, at a developmental age of about 5, instead of 6. When people

meet my children they always ask, " Now which one has autism? " , because they can

never figure it out.

I understand, thanks for claifying.

a

[Guest guest]

a,

not every child who is different from others should be considered as

autistic. If a child does not fit criteria of autistic disorder, but

developmentally is behind, you can say that he has developmental

delay, but not autism. Also, all kids develop differently. I feel

that I was developing slower than my other classmates until the 4th

grade, and yet after that I started developing faster and was a best

student in the class. It does not mean that I was autistic before

the 4th grade. Sure, kids who had autism were not learning at that

time well enough and they need some time to learn things which their

peers know already, but that does not mean that something is wrong

with them. You can see the difference in development between 4 and 8

years old, but you would not see difference between 20 and 24 years

old.

Margaret

--- In , pjand3kids <pjand3kids@j...>

wrote:

>

>

>

>

> >>>>>>If you removed the behavior issues but kept the other

issues, would you consider him " cured " ?>>>>>>

>

> Oh god yes! I might consider him quirky or odd, but definitely

not autistic. I've mentioned before that he is very, very well

behaved for me, just not others, including his Dad.

>

>

> >>>>>>If he is not in a regular classroom, then he

would " probably " be

> mid-functioning per my opinion that you are referencing.>>>>>

>

> I would disagree, because the school and I want him in regular ed,

but again, the knee jerk behavior causes problems for others,

therefore, we won't place him there. His academic ability is far

past his peers, and his social behavior is more on the level of a

Kindergartner, rather than a first grader. His language has never

been delayed. I know it is considered part of the spectrum, but I

would say the label that best fits him is non-verbal learning

disorder.

>

>

> >>>>No problems, he can maintain peer relationships to

developmental level of age 3.>>>

>

> But it states appropriate developmental level, doesn't that mean 7

years, not 3?

>

>

> >>>>>>>You can decide whether or not you believe he would still

qualify as " on spectrum " . My opinion is that he does not, because

he basically

> acts like a younger child, but does not have the other " issues "

> commonly associated with autism, nor does he have the 6 criteria,

with

> at least one from each category, as specified above.>>>>>>

>

> Ok, so that's the difference in your and my opinion. You are

using the DSM-IV criteria on him, but applying his age at the

developmental level that you feel he functions at, whereas, I apply

the actual chronological age to it, which is how a doctor would use

it. So, by your standards, if you met my son, you would not feel he

is autistic, but I still feel he is....just as I would probably feel

yours is. Interstingly enough, my son no longer qualifies for the 6

criteria, but like your son, at a developmental age of about 5,

instead of 6. When people meet my children they always ask, " Now

which one has autism? " , because they can never figure it out.

>

> I understand, thanks for claifying.

>

> a

[Guest guest]

--- " igorginzburg " <imginzburg@...> wrote:

a,

not every child who is different from others should be considered as

autistic. If a child does not fit criteria of autistic disorder, but

developmentally is behind, you can say that he has developmental

delay, but not autism. Also, all kids develop differently. I feel

that I was developing slower than my other classmates until the 4th

grade, and yet after that I started developing faster and was a best

student in the class. It does not mean that I was autistic before

the 4th grade. Sure, kids who had autism were not learning at that

time well enough and they need some time to learn things which their

peers know already, but that does not mean that something is wrong

with them. You can see the difference in development between 4 and 8

years old, but you would not see difference between 20 and 24 years

old.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Oh, I understand this. I just needed a better picture of why Dana felt her son

would no longer classify as autistic. I don't agree that just because an

autistic child is placed in special ed, means they are mid functioning, because

they aren't in regular ed. My son, who's development is not delayed any longer,

does act much younger than he is. He's very immature for his age, and always

has been. However, there is anothern autistic boy at his school that is in

regular ed, with an aide. This child is very delayed, non-verbal, and despite

being in regular ed, I'd consider him quite low functioning. I think if I were

to measure my son accoring to Dana's criteria, my son would be considered high

funtioning, which is what I've been told by the school and doctors. If you met

my son you would not guess him to be autistic or delayed, just immature for his

age.

I think we all have our views on what we consider to be high to low funtioning.

I'm probably more conservative on my view, and not so ready to say my son is no

longer on the spectrum.

a

[Guest guest]

I think some people misread, or at the very least, misunderstood my post.

Certainly there was nothing to defend for Dana because there was absolutely

no criticism from me.

But I was, and still am confused as what what will choose to say is on ASD,

or at least still on the spectrum.

Certainly it is true that there are many children who are not ASD, but do not

retain proper communication skills until they are much older.

Dana, thanks for your more detailed explanation. I think I understand a

little better. Going by this explanation, I would say my son is on his way

out of the autistic behaviors, but is still behind developmentally-which is a

very good thing.

I remember about 8 months ago when I first needed to accept where my son was

and I was gathering as much information's I could, I felt completely

overwhelmed.

After intensive reading and assimilating I felt I had the answers and would

be able to " cure " my son.

With each step I took, I found only a new mountain of information to climb.

With each new intervention I had to become a detective and examine the

actions and reactions that were the result of the intervention.

I know we have come a long way in 8 months, but it is not were I had

mistakenly believed we would be. My son now turns to us, smiles, laughs,

sings, walks, looks at a variety of thing, people, objects. But he does not

talk, does not point, does not call to his mommy or daddy, still stems, still

does those ugly sideways glances.

In the end, people like Dana and others who have shared their experience and

knowledge have helped me greatly. I have nothing but admiration for people

who are willing to share in this way. When I ask questions, it is only to

explained my own knowledge and awareness.

So I just want to say, thanks for sharing.

Mel

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>My son now turns to us, smiles, laughs, sings, walks, looks at a variety

of thing, people, objects. But he does not

talk, does not point, does not call to his mommy or daddy, still stems, still

does those ugly sideways glances.<<<<<<<<

Mel, if I remember correctly your son is quite young still. I have always

admired how early you recognized the signs, and how quickly you began searching

for answers. I want to give you hope for his future.

My son sang, recited the alphabet, memorized phonics and had a few words that he

never lost, all at the age of two. His language came in slowly and oddly, but

by 2-1/2 he still did not point or say mommy or daddy. His eye contact was

so/so. He didn't try to use language to converse, merely to identify things, so

it was mostly nouns that we heard, but there was some language. I felt very

discouraged, and also felt there were too many mountains to climb. At the time

my daughter was 7 months old and interacting with us better than my son. She

was already saying " mommy " ! Anyway, I slowly chipped away at information, and

by the time my son was 3 I had a pretty good handle on things, despite the

diagnosis still not being made. It didn't come until 3.8 years of age. Still,

my son had many hurdles and his development was no where in line with where it

should have been, especially in contrast to his sister who was 1 at the time.

It broke my heart to no end. However, little did I realize that her quick

development would be one of the best things for him. She was in his face all

the time. She demanded his attention and forced him to play with her. She was

there through all his therapy and was his best playmate.

I did end up hearing the word " mommy " from my son, somewhere just before his 3rd

birthday.....music to my ears.

Today is my son's 7th birthday. He's come along way from where he was at 1.

I'm no longer scared about his future, and I sleep well at night. His original

diagnosis was PDD-NOS, and he was re-diagnosed with Asperger's last year. His

development is not delayed, but he is immature. His sister is 5, and I'm always

being asked if they are twins. They are very much on the same wave length.

They look alike, talk alike, and act alike. He probably would not be considered

autistic today. His language is age appropriate. He is more social 1:1 than in

group settings, but he does play with other children. He prefers the company of

children that are younger than him or adults. He does not relate as well to

children his own age.

This morning we are headed off to my older son's soccer game, where my autistic

son behaves beautifully. When he was 4 and under we couldn't go anywhere with

him, due to his erratic behavior. He can still be a challenge for some people;

mostly tells them off! That's not all bad, considering I was told when he was

two that he would never speak. Oh he speaks now, but you might not like what

you hear..... However, for me, he's my best behaved child...seriously! After

soccer we will have a big birthday party. I use to dread those when he was

little, because he couldn't care less. He wouldn't even unwrap gifts. He was

more interested in the wrapping paper and ribbon. Now he's the opposite. All

morning I've heard, " I can't wait to open my presents mom! " " Today is going to

be a great day! " His requested gifts; cowboy boots, harmonica, telescope and " I

Spy " computer games.

My son is right...today is a great day, and there will be many more.

a

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2003 11:05:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

danaatty@... writes:

> This sounds right, I would probably not believe his is autistic.

> Maybe BD or " impulsive " or something similar, but not autistic.

> Especially if he does not qualify as per DSM, and especially if he is

> only one year behind. I would say it is a variable for ALL kids to be

> slightly behind in some areas and ahead in other areas. Noone is the

> " perfect child " , and developmental stages are averages anyway.

>

> But you can still consider him autistic if you want.

>

Not sure what BD is but I can tell you I have had psychologists and teachers

tell me that it is typical for ADHD kids to be about 3 years behind in

maturity. Soo, bringing a child out of autism dx and into an ADD or ADHD dx

which is totally common in todays classroom settings would probably make the

child on par with others in his age group. Also, I have met MANY NT adults I

would certainly not consider mature or age appropriate!

[Guest guest]

--- In , pjand3kids <pjand3kids@j...>

wrote:

> >>>>>>If he is not in a regular classroom, then he would " probably "

be

> mid-functioning per my opinion that you are referencing.>>>>>

>

> I would disagree, because the school and I want him in regular ed,

If the classroom placement is not what you would consider " optimal " ,

then you should go with the " optimal " classroom placement, and

consider him from that viewpoint. So if you believe he really should

be in a regular classroom, then he would be high functioning according

to my opinion.

>>but again, the knee jerk behavior causes problems for others,

therefore, we won't place him there.

This sounds like he might also qualify as a BD dx, which I would not

recommend you get, but it is not an autism dx.

> >>>>No problems, he can maintain peer relationships to developmental

level of age 3.>>>

>

> But it states appropriate developmental level, doesn't that mean 7

years, not 3?

In my opinion, " appropriate to developmental level " means he acts

appropriately for his developmental level. And his developmental

level is age 3. You can disagree tho, which is why different doctors

will also give different dx for the same child.

> Ok, so that's the difference in your and my opinion. You are using

the DSM-IV criteria on him,

Yes, therefore he no longer qualifies as autistic.

>> but applying his age at the developmental

level that you feel he functions at, whereas, I apply the actual

chronological age to it, which is how a doctor would use it.

The doctors I have asked, have told me to apply his developmental

level, not his chron age.

>> So, by

your standards, if you met my son, you would not feel he is autistic,

This sounds right, I would probably not believe his is autistic.

Maybe BD or " impulsive " or something similar, but not autistic.

Especially if he does not qualify as per DSM, and especially if he is

only one year behind. I would say it is a variable for ALL kids to be

slightly behind in some areas and ahead in other areas. Noone is the

" perfect child " , and developmental stages are averages anyway.

But you can still consider him autistic if you want.

I like the comment " which one is autistic " , it shows that your son has

come a long way, if he at one time did qualify for that label. I am

starting to get the " he is not autistic " comments now, which is VERY

strange and rather nice. Except now I am getting the " retarded " word,

which I DON'T like!

This has been an interesting discussion. Thanks for participating.

Dana

[Guest guest]

> Dana, thanks for your more detailed explanation. I think I

understand a

> little better. Going by this explanation, I would say my son is on

his way

> out of the autistic behaviors, but is still behind

developmentally-which is a

> very good thing.

Congrats!

> After intensive reading and assimilating I felt I had the answers

and would

> be able to " cure " my son.

> With each step I took, I found only a new mountain of information to

climb.

Been there, done that.

Still there, still doing that.

> I know we have come a long way in 8 months, but it is not were I had

> mistakenly believed we would be.

Hey me too LOL. I thought my son would be " so much improved " after a

year, then I revised it to " another year " , then " another year " . Very

frustrating, but there IS improvement and lots of people are seeing

it, so that is good. But I am still sooooooo envious of other kids

who are " a different child " within a few weeks of a certain

intervention.

>> My son now turns to us, smiles, laughs,

> sings, walks, looks at a variety of thing, people, objects. But he

does not

> talk, does not point, does not call to his mommy or daddy, still

stems, still

> does those ugly sideways glances.

UGH! Those sideways glances!! This is my son's most favorite stim

and the one that ALWAYS shows up the SPLIT SECOND something happens

[like a supplement he does not tolerate, or yeast, or whatever]. It

went away for a while, then came back. It seems to be gone now, yet

again, but I will not hold my breath, because it has always come back.

I believe my son has metals either in his eyes or in the visual part

of his brain, and none of the " typical ideas " for it have done

anything. But as metals are coming out, eventually he won't do this

any more, but it is taking SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long!

Keep going, it sounds like you are on the right track for him.

>

> In the end, people like Dana and others who have shared their

experience and

> knowledge have helped me greatly.

My son is where he is today, primarily because of the internet. So I

guess this is my way of " giving back " , hopefully other children can

improve like mine has. One day I want to take him to see the pedneuro

who dx him [the premiere national expert, as I understand it] and

introduce him to her LOL

Dana

[Guest guest]

> > still does those ugly sideways glances.

>

>

> UGH! Those sideways glances!! and none of the " typical ideas "

>for it have done anything.

Hi guys,

What have you guys tried to help get rid of the sideways glances?

Did you try CLO? Our 9 year old son never looked out of the sides

of his eyes until we went to see a DAN Dr. and we put him on CLO.

He was looking a lot out of the sides of his eyes after just 1 month

of CLO (approx. 3700IU). We tried adding bethanecol (after 3 months

of being on CLO) and that didn't work. We then cut out all

supplements for a couple of weeks and the behavior stopped but then

he got real tantrummy. So we restarted supplements (which calmed

him down again) and upped the CLO to 5000IU per day (2500IU in a.m.

and 2500IU in p.m.) and he seems to not look out of the sides of his

eyes as much. Don't know what it is doing to him since he can't

describe what he is feeling. I'm still not positive it is doing him

any good but we are taking it one day at a time. All this has taken

place since last September so we are still investigating what works

with him. What were some of the things you guys tried?? Thanks for

sharing and take care, Becky

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/3/2003 9:01:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

redmiller@... writes:

> >Hi guys,

> > What have you guys tried to help get rid of the sideways glances?

>

>

>

> Our neuro-developmentalist says the sideways glance and eye contact

> issues are related to an overdeveloped peripheral vision and under

> developed central vision. She has us doing eye exercises, using

> special glasses for a set period of time each day, and some other

> stuff to weaken the " side " vision and strengthen the central vision.

>

> I must say, it seems to be working. I know the eye exercises have

> greatly improved Tom's tracking and he now reports that he no longer

> sees things " double " . Eye stims are also diminishing :-).

>

>

My daughter did some of the sideways looking for a while but her vision and

tracking was fine. When I removed certain foods (colorings and

preservatives) and started working on yeast it stopped for us.

[Guest guest]

<<<<> My son is where he is today, primarily because of the

internet. So I> guess this is my way of " giving back " , hopefully

other children can > improve like mine has. One day I want to take

him to see the pedneuro > who dx him [the premiere national expert,

as I understand it] and > introduce him to her LOL

>

> Dana>>>

Or rather one day *your son* would take *you* to that expert,

introduce himself to her and introduce you as better expert in her

professional field than she is. (LOL...although standing ovation

would be more appropriate here)

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi guys,

> What have you guys tried to help get rid of the sideways glances?

Our neuro-developmentalist says the sideways glance and eye contact

issues are related to an overdeveloped peripheral vision and under

developed central vision. She has us doing eye exercises, using

special glasses for a set period of time each day, and some other

stuff to weaken the " side " vision and strengthen the central vision.

I must say, it seems to be working. I know the eye exercises have

greatly improved Tom's tracking and he now reports that he no longer

sees things " double " . Eye stims are also diminishing :-).

Let me know if you'd like more info. HTH.

Peace and grace,

Sally, mom to

Tom, 8yo dx AS but on the road to recovery

Ben, 6yo NT by the grace of God

Gracie, 2yo NT and unvaccinated

>

[Guest guest]

a;

First off, happy birthday to your son!

Thanks for the encouraging words.

My wife and I have been discussing another child, but we have been

apprehensive to say the least. The most difficult part of this process has

actually been working with my wife and getting her to understand the

importance of each step. It seems to be the opposite of most relationships.

But since my son is so young (just turned 18 months) I really have faith that

things will work out. Once we start chelating again, I really think we will

see some improvements.

But first we need to improve the constipation and clear some allergies with

BIOSET.

More on that later.

Thanks again for your words.

Mel

[Guest guest]

> Not sure what BD is

Behavior disorder.

>> but I can tell you I have had psychologists and teachers

> tell me that it is typical for ADHD kids to be about 3 years behind

in

> maturity. Soo, bringing a child out of autism dx and into an ADD

or ADHD dx

> which is totally common in todays classroom settings would probably

make the

> child on par with others in his age group.

My son's behaviors, even tho VERY MUCH behind a typical 7yo, are much

more tolerable than the behaviors of most of the NT kids, either 7yo

or 3yo.

>> Also, I have met MANY NT adults I

> would certainly not consider mature or age appropriate!

Well this is also true of me, I act maybe 15 years younger than I am

LOL. Altho I am aware of that fact so I have compensation ideas to

help me in social situations. But yes, there are some *supposedly NT*

adults out there who are worse than me LOL

Dana

[Guest guest]

> Or rather one day *your son* would take *you* to that expert,

> introduce himself to her and introduce you as better expert in her

> professional field than she is.

LOL I don't think this would go over too well with her!

But thanks

Dana

[Guest guest]

I'm " late " in commenting on this, so maybe everyone else has

really already said this -- anyway, my thinking is that

ability is not the same as development and learning.

For instance, a kid who is developing " normally " will be

learning language each year. Whereas a child who never has

the ABILITY to speak or to understand language

does NOT develop a vocabulary, does NOT learn what words

mean, does NOT learn grammar and usage, etc. So, if this

same child then, for instance, due to mercury detox,

attains the ability to process language better, and to

speak and so forth, that does NOT get them " caught up "

on years worth of vocabulary, usage, pronunciation

practice, etc. Another way to say it is that if you took

an NT child and put them in an environment where they were

not USING and practicing language every day (they did not

hear speech at all, for example), and they lived this way

for years, when you let them out into a language-rich

environment, they would be " very far behind " . There is

a combination of BOTH " ability " and " learning " that are

both a part of being at " age 3 " or " age 7 " in speech.

So, this is what I think of when Dana says her son is

developmentally doing well, but communicates at a level

a few years behind. Actually, my guess is that he is

probably progressing FASTER than his NT peers, at this

point, in order to " catch up " in a couple of years...?

I don't think my analogies are the greatest, but I hope

I'm still getting the idea across. And hurray for all

the progress, however it is measured or not measured.

best

Moria

> But about 80% of the time, he acts like your basic 3yo child. No

> behavior issues, no stims, he would not qualify as autistic if he was

> being dx today.

>

> But he is VERY far behind in language.

>