Re: Am I obligated to warn others of BPD mom's inevitable meltdowns?

August 11, 2010

Hi, and welcome. You're liable to get a whole spectrum of answers to this

question, but I vote yes - tell them. Then be prepared for them to ignore you

and go ahead anyway.

My mom does the same savior/demon cycling you describe, and she is, like your

mom, a veritable Blanche Dubois, always depending on the kindness of strangers.

She has already run through thousands of dollars of my savings, and I'm

exhausted with trying to make her life better, or get her to make her own life

better - so now she tells anyone who will listen that she has only one living

relative, a daughter who has " cut her off. " And that describes it pretty well -

but of course it takes a while for Mom's new friends to figure out WHY her only

child would abandon her. Then they follow suit, and she finds somebody else.

When I meet these people (very rarely - she lives in another town, and I have

very few opportunities to interact with her - that's by design, I assure you), I

try, tactfully, to tell them that she has a mental illness, that she is very

manipulative, and I suggest that they look up BPD in the DSM-IV online. Those

who are already wondering what's up with her, will do so. Those who have their

own agenda (she attracts people like herself, who are trying to sponge off a

sweet old lady - not realizing there's a dragon lying in wait), or who are too

unsophisticated to look up the information or understand it, will ignore what

I'm telling them. Then, several months later, I'll get a bewildered phone call

asking if there's any way I can make my mom pay them the money she owes them.

At that point, I can say, " Remember when I told you she was mentally ill? She

does this to everybody - that's why I don't have contact with her. I told you

not to get involved. Remember? " And I don't have to feel guilty. Of course,

what they really want me to do is write them a check for whatever she owes them,

but I can't and won't do that anymore.

So the up side of telling these people is, you're doing them a favor and

probably preserving their meager life savings. And you can live with yourself,

whatever the outcome.

The down side is that they will almost certainly tell your mother, she'll rage

at you and carry the grudge forever, and will tell everyone she knows that YOU

are crazy. The old couple (who are probably pretty desperate to get rid of the

B & B so they can have some money to live on) are quite likely to go ahead with

the plan, because your mom is selling them a fabulous fantasy about how great

things will be for everyone involved. They WANT to believe her. Then again, if

they heed your advice and cancel the deal, your mom is still at loose ends, so

the problem of her inability to support herself is still 'in the wind.'

You're going to wind up being the villain to your mom, but you will know that

you've done the ethical thing if you tell them - so you have to be at a place

where you just don't care whether she loves you or approves of you. (I am SO

there!) It might help to suggest that they call some of the people who could

back up your story - the police who were called, the non-family members who have

gotten burned. Being armed with a list of names and phone numbers makes you

look less crazy and vindictive and more like a responsible, concerned adult

child. And be sure that everything you say is backed up by documentation - so

you have Truth as a defense against her claims that you're slandering her.

I wish you luck with this -

August 11, 2010

Hi dearcoquette,

Welcome to the Group.

Your situation with your bpd mom is very familiar to many of us here. Some of us

have low-functioning bpd moms, while others of us (like me) have very

high-functioning ones. Both types are very difficult to survive and deal with

for the children of such individuals.

The question you're asking seems to me to be mostly of a moral and ethical

nature, so all I can offer is what I personally would do.

If my mother had a pattern, a long history of using people, going into business

with others or making agreements with others and then causing them to lose their

money, or causing them legal difficulties, making unsubstantiated accusations

against them, or otherwise causing them harm, then I personally would feel

morally obligated to speak up about it.

I think I would write a brief note to the elderly couple, and say something

like, " Hello, I am Nada's daughter. It saddens me but I feel morally obligated

to advise you to look carefully and thoroughly into my mother's history of

business dealings and her work record before you commit to any business

arrangements. Best wishes, DC "

On the other hand, if the business deal with this elderly couple is contingent

on your mother securing a half-million-dollar loan and she has no regular

income, even if she is borrowing against her 401K I'm doubtful that such a huge

loan will be forthcoming.

But your mother could still cause financial and emotional harm (or worse?) to

the couple if they let her live in their home while the business deal is

pending.

IF your mother had at some earlier point decided to accept that she has a

personality disorder, to accept personal responsibility for her mistakes and

irrational, irresponsible behaviors, had expressed a desire to improve her

behaviors, had chosen to go into treatment and was showing marked improvement in

her behaviors, and was even perhaps trying to pay some restitution to those

she'd damaged earlier, then I would probably take a different stance and not

feel a need to send a note to the elderly couple.

In the case of a moral/ethical dilemma, seems to me that each of us has to

decide what personal choices we can and can't live with based on our own ethics,

our religion or our moral beliefs.

-Annie

>

> Hi--I'm new to this community, so I'll skip the acronyms, but I had a

question.

>

> My mom has BPD, and it's led to her becoming pretty low-functioning over the

years--unable to hold a job, in and out of a series of rent-free living

situations on friends' properties (sometimes in their homes) that always end

with a major meltdown when she re-casts them in her head as enemies to have an

external target to blame for her own depression, starts an argument about a

" sin " that was never committed and, sometimes, goes really far and gets violent.

The same behavior has meant that she's been continuously unemployed for almost 2

years, and is now considering welfare. I'm actually kind of happy that this is

happening--at least now that she's getting facetime with a social worker,

there's a chance that she'll get some kind of treatment for her disorder and her

alcoholism, or at the very least have to learn to make herself accountable for

the situation her erratic behaviors have gotten her into.

>

> However, the idea of getting food stamps and subsidized housing is so

stressful for my mom that her knee jerk reaction the day after she visited the

social worker was to....go out and buy a $500,000 business. It's a bed and

breakfast in the remote norther michigan town I went to high school in, run by a

sweet 80-year-old couple that I worked for occasionally as a teenager who's been

trying to move the property for some time. They want it to remain a bed and

breakfast even though they've received offers from people wanting to turn it

into a group home, so they offered my mom a deal I almost can't believe--they'll

stay to help her run it, are asking only a $500 deposit until she secures

financing, which she says she can do by borrowing against her 401(k).

>

> I've had a lot of therapy over the years to deal with her illness, and I know

that I can't rescue my mom from how this situation will most likely end. But I'm

not sure if I'm obligated to warn the couple selling her this property--and

helping her to run it--that they're likely inviting something incredibly

disruptive into their lives and into a family business that is their legacy. At

the very least, my mom has been cycling through a pattern of launching headlong

into a living or job situation (in this case, both) and convincing herself that

all the people surrounding it are saviors who are immediately going to make her

life better; then, in some form or another, her mood shifts, she remembers that

she still is capable of negative emotions, and she re-casts everyone as

tormentors who suckered her into the situation under false pretenses and

violently pushes them away. Sometimes, this is really extreme--e.g., when she

lived with my uncle as a caretaker for his horses, which ended in her calling

the police and claiming that he waas abusing her and not allowing her to go to

the bathroom or access food--and sometimes they're not--e.g., most recently,

when she moved onto a friend's property in colorado and decided suddenly that

the employer at her temp job was evil and unethical because he yelled at an

employee, jumped ship and moved to michigan without a large police-scale

confrontation. I don't want this couple to get caught up in this cycle,

especially if they plan their lives around what would seem like a reasonable

assumption that the adult woman they're selling their property to is going to

responsibly assume the duties of the business and allow them to retire in peace.

>

> Am I obligated to contact them? I haven't contacted those involved in her past

few living situations and have regretted it, but I know that at the end of the

day, I'm her child and all I can do is protect myself. If I have an opportunity

to protect these people, though, should I, even if it would make my own

relationship with my mother really complicated?

>

August 11, 2010

Oh my. This is a hard question to deal with. I don't think you

are obligated as your nada's (nada = BPD mother) daughter, but

if you have some level of friendliness with that couple, I think

you'd be on the right side morally if you at least point them in

the direction of seeing the truth. Even if you haven't had

contact with them since you worked for them, hopefully they

remember you and would at least consider what you tell them. How

did this couple hook up with your nada? Have they done

background and credit checks on her? If your nada is at the

point of applying for welfare, that seems to rule out her having

the ability to buy a half-million dollar business. Given the

recent economic problems and the crackdown on giving on risky

loans, I have a hard time believing that she could get that kind

of loan unless she's got a lot more assets than you're normally

allowed to have while collecting any kind of public assistance.

Simply doing a credit check on her might be enough to convince

them to reconsider this. They may be desperate enough to sell

that they'll ignore a lot of red flags though. If that's the

case, even giving them a lot more information may not stop them

from following through on it. If you talk to them, be prepared

for that possibility. If you warn them and they ignore you, at

least you won't be in the position of regretting that you didn't

warn them. I place a high value on being able to look myself in

the eye in the mirror each morning and know that I've done my

best to do the right thing.

At 11:38 AM 08/10/2010 dearcoquette wrote:

>Hi--I'm new to this community, so I'll skip the acronyms, but I

>had a question.

>

>My mom has BPD, and it's led to her becoming pretty

>low-functioning over the years--unable to hold a job, in and

>out of a series of rent-free living situations on friends'

>properties (sometimes in their homes) that always end with a

>major meltdown when she re-casts them in her head as enemies to

>have an external target to blame for her own depression, starts

>an argument about a " sin " that was never committed and,

>sometimes, goes really far and gets violent. The same behavior

>has meant that she's been continuously unemployed for almost 2

>years, and is now considering welfare. I'm actually kind of

>happy that this is happening--at least now that she's getting

>facetime with a social worker, there's a chance that she'll get

>some kind of treatment for her disorder and her alcoholism, or

>at the very least have to learn to make herself accountable for

>the situation her erratic behaviors have gotten her into.

>

>However, the idea of getting food stamps and subsidized housing

>is so stressful for my mom that her knee jerk reaction the day

>after she visited the social worker was to....go out and buy a

>$500,000 business. It's a bed and breakfast in the remote

>norther michigan town I went to high school in, run by a sweet

>80-year-old couple that I worked for occasionally as a teenager

>who's been trying to move the property for some time. They want

>it to remain a bed and breakfast even though they've received

>offers from people wanting to turn it into a group home, so

>they offered my mom a deal I almost can't believe--they'll stay

>to help her run it, are asking only a $500 deposit until she

>secures financing, which she says she can do by borrowing

>against her 401(k).

>

>I've had a lot of therapy over the years to deal with her

>illness, and I know that I can't rescue my mom from how this

>situation will most likely end. But I'm not sure if I'm

>obligated to warn the couple selling her this property--and

>helping her to run it--that they're likely inviting something

>incredibly disruptive into their lives and into a family

>business that is their legacy. At the very least, my mom has

>been cycling through a pattern of launching headlong into a

>living or job situation (in this case, both) and convincing

>herself that all the people surrounding it are saviors who are

>immediately going to make her life better; then, in some form

>or another, her mood shifts, she remembers that she still is

>capable of negative emotions, and she re-casts everyone as

>tormentors who suckered her into the situation under false

>pretenses and violently pushes them away. Sometimes, this is

>really extreme--e.g., when she lived with my uncle as a

>caretaker for his horses, which ended in her calling the police

>and claiming that he waas abusing her and not allowing her to

>go to the bathroom or access food--and sometimes they're

>not--e.g., most recently, when she moved onto a friend's

>property in colorado and decided suddenly that the employer at

>her temp job was evil and unethical because he yelled at an

>employee, jumped ship and moved to michigan without a large

>police-scale confrontation. I don't want this couple to get

>caught up in this cycle, especially if they plan their lives

>around what would seem like a reasonable assumption that the

>adult woman they're selling their property to is going to

>responsibly assume the duties of the business and allow them to

>retire in peace.

>

>Am I obligated to contact them? I haven't contacted those

>involved in her past few living situations and have regretted

>it, but I know that at the end of the day, I'm her child and

>all I can do is protect myself. If I have an opportunity to

>protect these people, though, should I, even if it would make

>my own relationship with my mother really complicated?

--

Katrina

August 11, 2010

We're not talking about illegal behavior here, it doesn't sound like. If she

had a habit of poisoning her husbands and she was engaged, that would be

different.

I say you are definitely not obligated. If it were me, I would not say

anything, unless it was going to happen to a friend.

What if you followed her around and told all of her prospective employers that

she would screw it up somehow? Maybe you're right, but is that fair to her?

I think KO's tend to think they are more responsible than they really are. You

are responsible only for yourself (and your small children) in this life.

Certainly not for another adult. We all have our lessons to learn in life.

Maybe people who have run-ins with your nada have their own lessons that they

are learning from her.

I may be in the minority here, but that is my two cents!

Deanna