Re: Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

[Guest guest]

Larry,

It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

interest.

FF/LP

Vernon College

FIRE/EMS Training Program

4105 Maplewood

Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

Office ext 3233

Fax

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

bill affecting us at all.

The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

enforcement function.

Larry

> 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

>

>

>

> By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

H.B. No. 805

> (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> sent to printer.)

>

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

>

> AN ACT

>

>

> relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> prehospital care.

> BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

TEXAS:

> SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> the person:

> (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> time the care is administered;

> (2) is

unconscious;

> (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> care; and

> (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> fingerprinting capabilities.

> SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

2005.

>

>

>

> * * * * *

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Larry,

It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

interest.

FF/LP

Vernon College

FIRE/EMS Training Program

4105 Maplewood

Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

Office ext 3233

Fax

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

bill affecting us at all.

The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

enforcement function.

Larry

> 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

>

>

>

> By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

H.B. No. 805

> (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> sent to printer.)

>

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

>

> AN ACT

>

>

> relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> prehospital care.

> BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

TEXAS:

> SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> the person:

> (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> time the care is administered;

> (2) is

unconscious;

> (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> care; and

> (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> fingerprinting capabilities.

> SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

2005.

>

>

>

> * * * * *

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Larry,

It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

interest.

FF/LP

Vernon College

FIRE/EMS Training Program

4105 Maplewood

Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

Office ext 3233

Fax

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

bill affecting us at all.

The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

enforcement function.

Larry

> 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

>

>

>

> By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

H.B. No. 805

> (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> sent to printer.)

>

>

> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

>

> AN ACT

>

>

> relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> prehospital care.

> BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

TEXAS:

> SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> the person:

> (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> time the care is administered;

> (2) is

unconscious;

> (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> care; and

> (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> fingerprinting capabilities.

> SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

2005.

>

>

>

> * * * * *

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

FYI, the bill text reads MAY, not MUST. I view this as a positive

step for EMS - if your area NEEDS these services and your service and

medical director agree to perform this service (I'd suggest billing

the police agency separately), you CAN. But, there's no wording in

this law that REQUIRES anyone to do ANYTHING.

Mike

> Larry,

> It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

> events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

> interest.

>

> FF/LP

> Vernon College

> FIRE/EMS Training Program

> 4105 Maplewood

> Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

> Office ext 3233

> Fax

>

> Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

>

> This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

> EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

> conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

> bill affecting us at all.

>

> The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

> bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

> the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

> certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

> EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

> enforcement function.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> >

>

> >

> >

> > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> H.B. No. 805

> > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > sent to printer.)

> >

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> >

> > AN ACT

> >

> >

> > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > prehospital care.

> > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> TEXAS:

> > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> > the person:

> > (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> > time the care is administered;

> > (2) is

> unconscious;

> > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > care; and

> > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> 2005.

> >

> >

> >

> > * * * * *

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

FYI, the bill text reads MAY, not MUST. I view this as a positive

step for EMS - if your area NEEDS these services and your service and

medical director agree to perform this service (I'd suggest billing

the police agency separately), you CAN. But, there's no wording in

this law that REQUIRES anyone to do ANYTHING.

Mike

> Larry,

> It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

> events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

> interest.

>

> FF/LP

> Vernon College

> FIRE/EMS Training Program

> 4105 Maplewood

> Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

> Office ext 3233

> Fax

>

> Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

>

> This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

> EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

> conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

> bill affecting us at all.

>

> The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

> bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

> the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

> certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

> EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

> enforcement function.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> >

>

> >

> >

> > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> H.B. No. 805

> > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > sent to printer.)

> >

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> >

> > AN ACT

> >

> >

> > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > prehospital care.

> > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> TEXAS:

> > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> > the person:

> > (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> > time the care is administered;

> > (2) is

> unconscious;

> > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > care; and

> > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> 2005.

> >

> >

> >

> > * * * * *

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

FYI, the bill text reads MAY, not MUST. I view this as a positive

step for EMS - if your area NEEDS these services and your service and

medical director agree to perform this service (I'd suggest billing

the police agency separately), you CAN. But, there's no wording in

this law that REQUIRES anyone to do ANYTHING.

Mike

> Larry,

> It's good to know that there are others out there watching the

> events that are unfolding in Austin that affect EMS. I applaud you for your

> interest.

>

> FF/LP

> Vernon College

> FIRE/EMS Training Program

> 4105 Maplewood

> Wichita Falls, Texas 76308

> Office ext 3233

> Fax

>

> Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

>

> This is an interesting bill but I don't think it is a concern for

> EMS. It permits, not requires medics to take fingerprints and several

> conditions must be met before it might be requested. I don't see this

> bill affecting us at all.

>

> The one we need to be concerned about is SB-14 - the EMS blood draw

> bill. I've been told the bill stands a good chance of making it to

> the floor for a vote, so I'll be contacting my legislators. I

> certainly encourage everyone else to do the same. For many reasons

> EMS does not need to be doing forensic work. That is a law

> enforcement function.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> >

>

> >

> >

> > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> H.B. No. 805

> > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > sent to printer.)

> >

> >

> > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> >

> > AN ACT

> >

> >

> > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > prehospital care.

> > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> TEXAS:

> > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS RECEIVING

> > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services personnel

> > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care if

> > the person:

> > (1) does not possess personal identification at the

> > time the care is administered;

> > (2) is

> unconscious;

> > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico border by

> > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > care; and

> > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> 2005.

> >

> >

> >

> > * * * * *

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Larry Pacchioni wrote:

" Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea. "

Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living, breathing

patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle stick? The

guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or do they

both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of the body?

While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two different

functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when it

actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their blood drawn.

There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room to belly

up for access to the person being stuck.

We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime scenes

with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be potentially

contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will we have

emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the first

stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street to get

to the stickee first?

While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great for

patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and needles

using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the patient

either.

Just my $.02.

Barry

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

[Guest guest]

Larry Pacchioni wrote:

" Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea. "

Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living, breathing

patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle stick? The

guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or do they

both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of the body?

While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two different

functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when it

actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their blood drawn.

There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room to belly

up for access to the person being stuck.

We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime scenes

with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be potentially

contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will we have

emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the first

stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street to get

to the stickee first?

While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great for

patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and needles

using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the patient

either.

Just my $.02.

Barry

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

[Guest guest]

Larry Pacchioni wrote:

" Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea. "

Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living, breathing

patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle stick? The

guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or do they

both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of the body?

While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two different

functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when it

actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their blood drawn.

There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room to belly

up for access to the person being stuck.

We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime scenes

with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be potentially

contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will we have

emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the first

stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street to get

to the stickee first?

While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great for

patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and needles

using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the patient

either.

Just my $.02.

Barry

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

[Guest guest]

I believe New Mexico did just this. I'll have to check my news

archives and find out. I think they're also the ones teaching cops to

administer Narcan for OD's.

Mike

> While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

> perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

> blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

> should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

> and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

> relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

> some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

> further troubles.

>

> If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

> friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

> trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

> not even allowed by most services.

>

> Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > > H.B. No. 805

> > > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > > sent to printer.)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > >

> > > > AN ACT

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > > prehospital care.

> > > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > > TEXAS:

> > > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

> RECEIVING

> > > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

> personnel

> > > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

> if

> > > > the person:

> > > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

> the

> > > > time the care is administered;

> > > > (2) is

> > > unconscious;

> > > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

> border by

> > > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > > care; and

> > > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > > 2005.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > * * * * *

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I believe New Mexico did just this. I'll have to check my news

archives and find out. I think they're also the ones teaching cops to

administer Narcan for OD's.

Mike

> While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

> perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

> blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

> should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

> and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

> relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

> some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

> further troubles.

>

> If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

> friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

> trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

> not even allowed by most services.

>

> Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > > H.B. No. 805

> > > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > > sent to printer.)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > >

> > > > AN ACT

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > > prehospital care.

> > > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > > TEXAS:

> > > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

> RECEIVING

> > > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

> personnel

> > > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

> if

> > > > the person:

> > > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

> the

> > > > time the care is administered;

> > > > (2) is

> > > unconscious;

> > > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

> border by

> > > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > > care; and

> > > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > > 2005.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > * * * * *

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

I believe New Mexico did just this. I'll have to check my news

archives and find out. I think they're also the ones teaching cops to

administer Narcan for OD's.

Mike

> While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

> perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

> blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

> should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

> and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

> relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

> some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

> further troubles.

>

> If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

> friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

> trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

> not even allowed by most services.

>

> Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea.

>

> Larry

>

>

> > > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > > H.B. No. 805

> > > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > > sent to printer.)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > > >

> > > > AN ACT

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > > prehospital care.

> > > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > > TEXAS:

> > > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

> RECEIVING

> > > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

> personnel

> > > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

> if

> > > > the person:

> > > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

> the

> > > > time the care is administered;

> > > > (2) is

> > > unconscious;

> > > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

> border by

> > > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > > care; and

> > > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > > 2005.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > * * * * *

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

Larry, I'm not arguing for SB 14 or any other bill. I'm just saying that if

this passes, then there will have to be some meeting of minds to make it

operational. That not only includes the on scene interaction with the

patient, but also the points that you bring up. (Including when the the perp

isn't a patient.)

As far as medical professional gathering evidence. Public health has done

that for centuries. It's called epidemiology. There is even a specialized

practice for public health law with it's own program at the Centers for

Disease Control and Prevention. And some of those public health laws have

criminal consequences.

Evidence gathering is not a new element for public health. For EMS, yes. Can

it change our perception from good guys to bad guys in the eyes of law

breakers? Probably so.

Should we as a profession speak out on legislation? You betcha!!

Barry

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

Mr. Sharp,

You make the assumption that EMS will always be treating the alledged

perp as a patient. Suppose the perp is uninjured and does not require

tx? Where does your scenario go from there?

The idea of medical professionals performing evidence gathering

functions raises more concerns than have been discussed. Lets look at

a few.

What about public perception? Recent discussion on this and other

lists have focused on the need for EMS to move closer to public

health and away from public safety. What does this proposed amendment

to the transportation codes do for that?

The issue of chain of custody was raised on another list. What about

this and the very real potential that medics will become involved in

court trials? Who will cover the costs of overtime, time away from

work, lost days off, travel, the possible need for legal

representation, etc.?

To some degree, EMS is protected specie in the criminal world. This

because even numbskull gang bangers realize it is EMS that comes to

their rescue when they get gang banged. What will happen to this

minor protection once they realize we have entered the world of law

enforcement?

Inquiring minds want to know. I reiterate....SB 14 is a bad bill and

EMS performing evidentiary blood draws is a bad idea.

Larry

>

> " Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let

them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea. "

>

> Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living,

breathing

> patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle

stick? The

> guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or

do they

> both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of

the body?

>

> While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two

different

> functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when

it

> actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their

blood drawn.

> There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room

to belly

> up for access to the person being stuck.

>

> We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime

scenes

> with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be

potentially

> contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will

we have

> emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the

first

> stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street

to get

> to the stickee first?

>

> While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great

for

> patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and

needles

> using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the

patient

> either.

>

> Just my $.02.

>

> Barry

>

>

> NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other

agencies

> and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services

(DSHS),

> resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all

employees:

> firstname.lastname@d...

[Guest guest]

Larry,

Every state allows nurses and doctors to draw blood for DUI purposes in the

ED...I guess this is not a blurring of the lines between healthcare and law

enforcement?

BTW, as one who did 50+ of these in Florida, there is no large scale concern and

they have been doing it there for well over 13 years.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

further troubles.

If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

not even allowed by most services.

Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea.

Larry

> > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > H.B. No. 805

> > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > sent to printer.)

> > >

> > >

> > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > >

> > > AN ACT

> > >

> > >

> > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > prehospital care.

> > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > TEXAS:

> > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

RECEIVING

> > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

personnel

> > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

if

> > > the person:

> > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

the

> > > time the care is administered;

> > > (2) is

> > unconscious;

> > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

border by

> > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > care; and

> > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > 2005.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > * * * * *

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Larry,

Let me address these 3 additional issues from my point of view:

What about the public perception? What about the public perception of EMS when

we stand by and boldly say " We need to stop and prevent DUI and the damage it

causes...but don't ask us to do anything to help...it is a cop problem " . Blood

draws on scenes are usually done only when EMS is there and become mandatory

when there is a critical injury or death...this leads to point 2:

When EMS responds to accidents involving serious injury or death EMS usually

gets subpeona'ed to court because of our role in the accident adn patient

transport. Is this not a blurring of the lines of law enforcement and

healthcare? What about the public perception here? The truth of the matter is

that we are going to court anyway...why not help our LEO brethren successfully

make a case by drawing 2 tubes of blood? BTW, chain of custody is not an issue

because the blood draw is done from a kit and the LEO gives it to you, you draw

the blood, seal everything up, and give it back to him...he maintains the

chain...

The EMS as a good guy perception is not valid either. Medics are not being

killed by gang bangers because they draw blood when some idiot who decided to

drink and drive kills someone. They are actually seen as more of a good guy

because they are HELPING put bad guys in jail.

These are just my thoughts and I am on record as being one of the lone EMS

personnel in this great state who think this is a really good idea.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

Mr. Sharp,

You make the assumption that EMS will always be treating the alledged

perp as a patient. Suppose the perp is uninjured and does not require

tx? Where does your scenario go from there?

The idea of medical professionals performing evidence gathering

functions raises more concerns than have been discussed. Lets look at

a few.

What about public perception? Recent discussion on this and other

lists have focused on the need for EMS to move closer to public

health and away from public safety. What does this proposed amendment

to the transportation codes do for that?

The issue of chain of custody was raised on another list. What about

this and the very real potential that medics will become involved in

court trials? Who will cover the costs of overtime, time away from

work, lost days off, travel, the possible need for legal

representation, etc.?

To some degree, EMS is protected specie in the criminal world. This

because even numbskull gang bangers realize it is EMS that comes to

their rescue when they get gang banged. What will happen to this

minor protection once they realize we have entered the world of law

enforcement?

Inquiring minds want to know. I reiterate….SB 14 is a bad bill and

EMS performing evidentiary blood draws is a bad idea.

Larry

>

> " Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let

them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea. "

>

> Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living,

breathing

> patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle

stick? The

> guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or

do they

> both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of

the body?

>

> While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two

different

> functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when

it

> actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their

blood drawn.

> There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room

to belly

> up for access to the person being stuck.

>

> We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime

scenes

> with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be

potentially

> contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will

we have

> emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the

first

> stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street

to get

> to the stickee first?

>

> While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great

for

> patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and

needles

> using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the

patient

> either.

>

> Just my $.02.

>

> Barry

>

>

> NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other

agencies

> and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services

(DSHS),

> resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all

employees:

> firstname.lastname@d...

[Guest guest]

Larry,

Let me address these 3 additional issues from my point of view:

What about the public perception? What about the public perception of EMS when

we stand by and boldly say " We need to stop and prevent DUI and the damage it

causes...but don't ask us to do anything to help...it is a cop problem " . Blood

draws on scenes are usually done only when EMS is there and become mandatory

when there is a critical injury or death...this leads to point 2:

When EMS responds to accidents involving serious injury or death EMS usually

gets subpeona'ed to court because of our role in the accident adn patient

transport. Is this not a blurring of the lines of law enforcement and

healthcare? What about the public perception here? The truth of the matter is

that we are going to court anyway...why not help our LEO brethren successfully

make a case by drawing 2 tubes of blood? BTW, chain of custody is not an issue

because the blood draw is done from a kit and the LEO gives it to you, you draw

the blood, seal everything up, and give it back to him...he maintains the

chain...

The EMS as a good guy perception is not valid either. Medics are not being

killed by gang bangers because they draw blood when some idiot who decided to

drink and drive kills someone. They are actually seen as more of a good guy

because they are HELPING put bad guys in jail.

These are just my thoughts and I am on record as being one of the lone EMS

personnel in this great state who think this is a really good idea.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

Mr. Sharp,

You make the assumption that EMS will always be treating the alledged

perp as a patient. Suppose the perp is uninjured and does not require

tx? Where does your scenario go from there?

The idea of medical professionals performing evidence gathering

functions raises more concerns than have been discussed. Lets look at

a few.

What about public perception? Recent discussion on this and other

lists have focused on the need for EMS to move closer to public

health and away from public safety. What does this proposed amendment

to the transportation codes do for that?

The issue of chain of custody was raised on another list. What about

this and the very real potential that medics will become involved in

court trials? Who will cover the costs of overtime, time away from

work, lost days off, travel, the possible need for legal

representation, etc.?

To some degree, EMS is protected specie in the criminal world. This

because even numbskull gang bangers realize it is EMS that comes to

their rescue when they get gang banged. What will happen to this

minor protection once they realize we have entered the world of law

enforcement?

Inquiring minds want to know. I reiterate….SB 14 is a bad bill and

EMS performing evidentiary blood draws is a bad idea.

Larry

>

> " Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let

them

> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

> idea. "

>

> Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living,

breathing

> patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle

stick? The

> guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or

do they

> both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of

the body?

>

> While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two

different

> functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when

it

> actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their

blood drawn.

> There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room

to belly

> up for access to the person being stuck.

>

> We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime

scenes

> with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be

potentially

> contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will

we have

> emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the

first

> stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street

to get

> to the stickee first?

>

> While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great

for

> patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and

needles

> using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the

patient

> either.

>

> Just my $.02.

>

> Barry

>

>

> NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other

agencies

> and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services

(DSHS),

> resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all

employees:

> firstname.lastname@d...

[Guest guest]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

Just wanted to jump on the ol' band wagon.

Curtis W.

Lubbock Police

Used to be Lubbock EMS

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Larry,

Every state allows nurses and doctors to draw blood for DUI purposes in the

ED...I guess this is not a blurring of the lines between healthcare and law

enforcement?

BTW, as one who did 50+ of these in Florida, there is no large scale concern and

they have been doing it there for well over 13 years.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

further troubles.

If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

not even allowed by most services.

Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea.

Larry

> > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > H.B. No. 805

> > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > sent to printer.)

> > >

> > >

> > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > >

> > > AN ACT

> > >

> > >

> > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > prehospital care.

> > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > TEXAS:

> > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

RECEIVING

> > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

personnel

> > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

if

> > > the person:

> > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

the

> > > time the care is administered;

> > > (2) is

> > unconscious;

> > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

border by

> > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > care; and

> > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > 2005.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > * * * * *

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

Just wanted to jump on the ol' band wagon.

Curtis W.

Lubbock Police

Used to be Lubbock EMS

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Larry,

Every state allows nurses and doctors to draw blood for DUI purposes in the

ED...I guess this is not a blurring of the lines between healthcare and law

enforcement?

BTW, as one who did 50+ of these in Florida, there is no large scale concern and

they have been doing it there for well over 13 years.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

further troubles.

If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

not even allowed by most services.

Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea.

Larry

> > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > H.B. No. 805

> > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > sent to printer.)

> > >

> > >

> > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > >

> > > AN ACT

> > >

> > >

> > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > prehospital care.

> > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > TEXAS:

> > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

RECEIVING

> > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

personnel

> > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

if

> > > the person:

> > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

the

> > > time the care is administered;

> > > (2) is

> > unconscious;

> > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

border by

> > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > care; and

> > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > 2005.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > * * * * *

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

Just wanted to jump on the ol' band wagon.

Curtis W.

Lubbock Police

Used to be Lubbock EMS

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Larry,

Every state allows nurses and doctors to draw blood for DUI purposes in the

ED...I guess this is not a blurring of the lines between healthcare and law

enforcement?

BTW, as one who did 50+ of these in Florida, there is no large scale concern and

they have been doing it there for well over 13 years.

Dudley

Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

While it is a true statement that SB 14 does not *require* EMS to

perform the procedures, this does little to relieve my concerns. It

blurs lines between law enforcement and medical professionals that

should remain clearly demarcated. If an officer makes the *request*

and the medic chooses not to do so there will be further strain on a

relationship that is already problematic. Who amongst us hasn't had

some kind of on-scene difficulty with a LEO? This bill assures

further troubles.

If passed, Texas will be only the third state with such a law. My

friends in Florida tell me the requirement has been nothing but

trouble and New York's law raises such hurdles that the procedure is

not even allowed by most services.

Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let them

do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

idea.

Larry

> > > 79® HB 805 - Senate Committee Report version - Bill Text

> > >

> >

> > >

> > >

> > > By: ez (Senate Sponsor - Carono)

> > H.B. No. 805

> > > (In the Senate - Received from the House April 25, 2005;

> > > April 26, 2005, read first time and referred to Committee on

> > > Transportation and Homeland Security; May 11, 2005, reported

> > > favorably by the following vote: Yeas 7, Nays 0; May 11, 2005,

> > > sent to printer.)

> > >

> > >

> > > A BILL TO BE ENTITLED

> > >

> > > AN ACT

> > >

> > >

> > > relating to allowing certain emergency and hospital personnel to

> > > take the thumbprint of certain people who receive emergency

> > > prehospital care.

> > > BE IT ENACTED BY THE LEGISLATURE OF THE STATE OF

> > TEXAS:

> > > SECTION 1. Subchapter A, Chapter 773, Health and Safety

> > > Code, is amended by adding Section 773.015 to read as follows:

> > > Sec. 773.015. IDENTIFICATION OF CERTAIN PATIENTS

RECEIVING

> > > EMERGENCY PREHOSPITAL CARE. Emergency medical services

personnel

> > > or emergency room medical or admissions personnel may take the

> > > thumbprint of a person who receives emergency prehospital care

if

> > > the person:

> > > (1) does not possess personal identification at

the

> > > time the care is administered;

> > > (2) is

> > unconscious;

> > > (3) is transported across the Texas-Mexico

border by

> > > ambulance or helicopter while receiving emergency prehospital

> > > care; and

> > > (4) is delivered to a hospital that has digital

> > > fingerprinting capabilities.

> > > SECTION 2. This Act takes effect September 1,

> > 2005.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > * * * * *

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Why, exactly, would a good defense attorney eat a medic alive, but not

a nurse? If nurses are doing this now, and medics are just as

competent as nurses, what's the worry? Or, do you believe that medics

are less competent?

Chain of custody is an EASY thing - medics do it all the time. They

hold on to blood samples to give to the hospital, hold on to patient's

belongings to give to the hospital, etc. I'd think this is backwards

- if rookie cops, all full of adrenaline and wonder, can handle chain

of custody - why not a medic?

I'm just curious, one paramedicop to another...

Mike

> I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

[Guest guest]

Why, exactly, would a good defense attorney eat a medic alive, but not

a nurse? If nurses are doing this now, and medics are just as

competent as nurses, what's the worry? Or, do you believe that medics

are less competent?

Chain of custody is an EASY thing - medics do it all the time. They

hold on to blood samples to give to the hospital, hold on to patient's

belongings to give to the hospital, etc. I'd think this is backwards

- if rookie cops, all full of adrenaline and wonder, can handle chain

of custody - why not a medic?

I'm just curious, one paramedicop to another...

Mike

> I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

[Guest guest]

Why, exactly, would a good defense attorney eat a medic alive, but not

a nurse? If nurses are doing this now, and medics are just as

competent as nurses, what's the worry? Or, do you believe that medics

are less competent?

Chain of custody is an EASY thing - medics do it all the time. They

hold on to blood samples to give to the hospital, hold on to patient's

belongings to give to the hospital, etc. I'd think this is backwards

- if rookie cops, all full of adrenaline and wonder, can handle chain

of custody - why not a medic?

I'm just curious, one paramedicop to another...

Mike

> I just want to throw my 2 cents in. As a paramedic for 10 years and a police

officer for 2. Im not sure exactly what this bill is purposing. In my opinion,

medics should not be drawing blood for LEA's for the simple fact in trial a good

defense attorney will eat medics alive about the method used to obatain the

blood and how the chain of evidence was handled out side of a hospital. As

already stated by someone medics dont need this headache, yes blood draws are a

simple procedure but court is not and court is not a place to drag EMS's good

name through the mud. Believe me defense attorneys generally do not care about

professionalism and ethics, they have a client to take care of.

[Guest guest]

I will attempt to address THEDUDMAN's assertions. Read down. GG.

In a message dated 5/12/2005 7:18:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, THEDUDMAN@...

writes:

>Larry,

>

>Let me address these 3 additional issues from my point of view:

>

>What about the public perception?  What about the public perception of EMS when

we stand by and boldly say " We need to stop and prevent DUI and the damage it

causes...but don't ask us to do anything to help...it is a cop problem " .  Blood

draws on scenes are usually done only when EMS is there and become mandatory

when there is a critical injury or death...this leads to point 2:

The flaw in this logic is that the purpose of EMS is to render medical care to

the sick and injured. We treat patients who need treatment. Drawing blood for

LE is not medical treatment by any stretch of the imagination. The public

expects us to render medical care, not law enforcement. Once we step into the

law enforcement role, we have crossed the line. We are required, morally and

ethically, to be patient advocates. That does not include stepping into a law

enforcement role.

If an EMS person wants to enforce the DWI laws, then that person should go into

law enforcement.

>

>When EMS responds to accidents involving serious injury or death EMS usually

gets subpeona'ed to court because of our role in the accident adn patient

transport.  Is this not a blurring of the lines of law enforcement and

healthcare?  

No, not in any way. We only testify as to the condition of the patient and care

given. There's no blurring at all.

What about the public perception here?  

What about it? How do you think the public will respond when they find out that

medical care suffered because we were not paying attention to our patient but

drawing blood for LE. Standard of Care does not include DWI blood draws in

medical care.

The truth of the matter is that we are going to court anyway...why not help our

LEO brethren successfully make a case by drawing 2 tubes of blood?  

In fact, we do not generally go to court on routine DWI trials because we have

nothing to testify to. But involve us in the blood draw procedure and we'll

find ourselves there often. Does your service have a budget item for overtime

for court appearances? How do you expect to pay for these services? LE

certainly isn't going to reimburse you for any of it. How will you explain to

the family of a patient who dies because the closest EMS crew is out of service

drawing blood for a Trooper? Talk about negative public perception!!

BTW, chain of custody is not an issue because the blood draw is done from a kit

and the LEO gives it to you, you draw the blood, seal everything up, and give it

back to him...he maintains the chain...

The drawer of the blood will be called to testify. Defense lawyers will simply

not accept a LE officer's log as being definitive. The defense is going to call

you and ask you every thing it can think of regarding the circumstances of the

draw, including where it was done, whether or not it was done in a sanitary

environment, can you identify the blood kit as being the one you used, how many

sticks did it take, was alcohol prep used, and so forth. So as an attorney with

considerable practice both as a prosecutor and a defense attorney, I can promise

you that EMS folks will be raked over the coals. That will just be one more

chance for a defense attorney to create a reasonable doubt as to the validity of

the blood draw, get it excluded by the Court, or establish a doubt in the minds

on ONE juror. It will be a prosecutor's nightmare, because now he has another

witness to deal with, to produce on time, and establish the requisite facts.

>

>The EMS as a good guy perception is not valid either.  Medics are not being

killed by gang bangers because they draw blood when some idiot who decided to

drink and drive kills someone.  They are actually seen as more of a good guy

because they are HELPING put bad guys in jail.

That's a very strange point of view, Dudley. I have never seen my role as a

Paramedic as helping put bad guys in jail. That's not my job. My job is to be

a patient advocate, to treat all equally and without regard to what they might

or might not have done. When I was a prosecutor, I stuck with that role. Now

that I'm a Paramedic, I'm no longer a prosecutor. And while I truly want to see

drunk drivers off the road, it's not within the role of a medical care giver in

the field to do that.

>

>These are just my thoughts and I am on record as being one of the lone EMS

personnel in this great state who think this is a really good idea.

>

>Dudley

I encourage all to speak their minds. You have spoken yours, and I have spoken

mine. The bill is, hopefully, dead for this session; however, it will, like the

Hydra, return again. Whatever our views, we have the obligation as good

citizens to become involved in the legislative process and let our legislators

know what we expect of them. You have exercised your rights to speak your mind,

and rightly so. I happen to disagree with you, but we all don't agree on many

things. That's why they make chocolate as well as vanilla.

Gene Gandy, JD, LP

>

> Re: HB 805 (and SB 14)

>

>

>Mr. Sharp,

>

>You make the assumption that EMS will always be treating the alledged

>perp as a patient. Suppose the perp is uninjured and does not require

>tx? Where does your scenario go from there?

>

>The idea of medical professionals performing evidence gathering

>functions raises more concerns than have been discussed. Lets look at

>a few.

>

>What about public perception? Recent discussion on this and other

>lists have focused on the need for EMS to move closer to public

>health and away from public safety. What does this proposed amendment

>to the transportation codes do for that?

>

>The issue of chain of custody was raised on another list. What about

>this and the very real potential that medics will become involved in

>court trials? Who will cover the costs of overtime, time away from

>work, lost days off, travel, the possible need for legal

>representation, etc.?

>

>To some degree, EMS is protected specie in the criminal world. This

>because even numbskull gang bangers realize it is EMS that comes to

>their rescue when they get gang banged. What will happen to this

>minor protection once they realize we have entered the world of law

>enforcement?

>

>Inquiring minds want to know. I reiterate?.SB 14 is a bad bill and

>EMS performing evidentiary blood draws is a bad idea.

>

>Larry

>

>

>>

>> " Evidence gathering is a law enforcement function. If it is so

>> necessary to draw blood samples on scene that it must be mandated,

>> why then don't we train LEO's in the rather simple skill and let

>them

>> do it themselves? This would address all concerns. SB 14 is a bad

>> idea. "

>>

>> Just one question, providing the blood draw is from a living,

>breathing

>> patient and not from a corpse: Who gets first dibs on the needle

>stick? The

>> guys with the guns and badges or the guys with the orange bags? Or

>do they

>> both get an arm and the first one through gets to keep the rest of

>the body?

>>

>> While I do agree that law enforcement and medical care are two

>different

>> functions, there has to be some reasonableness and cooperation when

>it

>> actually comes down to putting hands on the person having their

>blood drawn.

>> There are only so many places to do a stick and only so much room

>to belly

>> up for access to the person being stuck.

>>

>> We already get into hot water for potentially contaminating crime

>scenes

>> with our patient care personnel and equipment, could be also be

>potentially

>> contaminating their criminal with our patient care services? Will

>we have

>> emergency personnel doing rock-paper-scissors to see who gets the

>first

>> stick? Or will the EMS and LEO folks be drag racing down the street

>to get

>> to the stickee first?

>>

>> While laws that put EMS into evidence gathering modes aren't great

>for

>> patient advocacy, having two many persons with opposing needs and

>needles

>> using the patient as a pin cushion can't be very good for the

>patient

>> either.

>>

>> Just my $.02.

>>

>> Barry

>>

>>

>> NOTE: The Texas Department of Health  (TDH) has merged with other

>agencies

>> and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services

>(DSHS),

>> resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all

>employees:

>> firstname.lastname@d...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

We have always been the 'neutral dudes', taking care of whoever needed it. Any

change to this will 1) put us further into the 'public safety camp', where we

are already being treated like 'red-headed step children'; and 2) drive us

further from where we belong - public health.

" Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail. " - Kinky

Friedman

Larry RN LP

[Guest guest]

We have always been the 'neutral dudes', taking care of whoever needed it. Any

change to this will 1) put us further into the 'public safety camp', where we

are already being treated like 'red-headed step children'; and 2) drive us

further from where we belong - public health.

" Money can buy you a fine dog, but only love can make him wag his tail. " - Kinky

Friedman

Larry RN LP