Re: DES exposure - left handedness and gay

April 20, 2002

Laurel,

Here's another...they also mention an increase in left handedness with the

offspring born to DES mothers

http://www.neoteny.org/a/homosexuality.html

Doris

April 20, 2002

Thanks Doris. I'm checking it out right now!

Laurel

Re: DES exposure - left handedness and gay

Laurel,

Here's another...they also mention an increase in left handedness with the

offspring born to DES mothers

http://www.neoteny.org/a/homosexuality.html

Doris

April 20, 2002

Laurel,

While you are there, see what you think of my theory now, after having read

it. ( thanks Doris)

So since I have no doubt that my Mother was undiagnosed Graves' for

years.... and I know she was in a 'rage' phase, while pregnant with my

brother, who is gay, I wonder if this 'stress' might be part of the answer?

I know she took DES with me, but I am the oldest, and I do not think she

took it with the other two children.

-Pam- putting many pieces together with this thread, but many more to go

April 20, 2002

Doris,

I just spent two hours on this site. I'm not sure that I can agree with what he

is saying but its interesting reading anyway.

I think he is misreading Lamarckian evolution. The idea that the environment

influences evolution in the Lamarckian sense was discredited before the

discovery of DNA. What was discredited was the idea that species evolve to fit

the environment. Darwin was saying that those not fitted for the environment

die off before they can pass along their genetic coding and so that branch of

variation dies off. The idea that toxins, light, and other environmental

factors can influence our DNA is a recent one. And.....a great many of those

agents (like DDT and other man-made chemicals) didn't exist when the Lamarckian

theory was being postulated.

I also noted that he uses fairly old materials. The most recent is from the

early 90's. Still I printed up some 40 pages of stuff to consider more

carefully as I think that some of what he is thinking may have merit. Of course

he sort of lifted the consilliance idea from O. (who is a very

cool dude and has tons of stuff to say about life, the universe and everything.)

who has written a book about that idea and really does try to address a unified

theory of just everything. Makes for some great reading if you can be patient

with him. Lots of " eureka " kinds of moments.

The idea that the world was not always paternalistic seems to be making a great

big comeback as well. That might be more related to the number of women who are

in the workplace by necessity and therefore cannot allow themselves the luxury

of compliance.

Anyhow, thanks for the best mind trip I've had in months.

Maybe we will be the ones who come up with the unified theory of everything.

Who knows? We are probably better qualified than Darwin was in his time.

Laurel

P.S. sorry to everybody else for getting so far off topic. On the other hand

maybe these are pieces of a bigger puzzle.

Re: DES exposure - left handedness and gay

Laurel,

Here's another...they also mention an increase in left handedness with the

offspring born to DES mothers

http://www.neoteny.org/a/homosexuality.html

Doris

April 20, 2002

Pam,

I spent a bunch of time on this site. (Doris I just adore you!) and, while this

guy has an alternative theory to espouse, I'm not sure he has it quite right

either. There are a couple of things he seems to be rewriting to suit his own

needs and, by his own admission, he is an artist and not a scientist. Not that

the scientists are going to find the answer either.

My personal take is that nature creates gay people, period. I think its

interesting to theorize when that happens and why but I personally think that

this is a variation of normal. It seems to make sense on one level that it

happens when there is a need for people to not reproduce. For a while there was

a theory that it was caused by stress since several studies seemed to indicate

that more gay men were conceived and born during WWII and its aftermath in

Europe. But this doesn't explain the overwhelming response of many gay people

to be as nurturing as everybody else and still want to have children.

There is a theory that women go through menopause while they still have active

years so that they can increase the fitness to reproduce for their own children.

I suppose this might have some similarities. But lots of gay women have their

own biological children.

Call me crazy but I think one of the reasons that nature creates gay people is

to level out the emotional playing field and give some of us permission to be a

little less uptight. Another perspective on the world from another culture. Of

course this is like saying that all homosexuals are alike which is like saying

all heterosexual people are alike. Both wrong. Anthropology of lots of

cultures teaches us that homosexuality was not just ok, in many cases it was

encouraged and still is some places. There are, and have been, cultures in which

the emergence of a homosexual was considered a gift from the gods. So the

conclusion seems to be that its an across time and culture phenomena.

If I'm reading this guy right (and I may not be) he is drawing from n

Arnett's work on the -- (being strongly left) to ++ (being strongly right) has

its roots in evolution, the -- being older (and maybe less evolved and more

prone to autoimmune diseases, homosexuality and less brain hemisphere size

difference). There is no real explanation as to why this may be so.

Wow. I got way off track there.

Sorry Pam. Blame it the fog. I guess the bottom line is that, like labeling

dyslexic kids abnormal, I'm equally loathe to label gay people as abnormal. I'd

rather think of them as a variation of normal and, as such, not a product of a

disease process. Of course that wasn't your question at all. You were looking

for cause and effect and, right now, it doesn't exist. Lots of theories, none

proven.

Laurel

Re: DES exposure - left handedness and gay

Laurel,

While you are there, see what you think of my theory now, after having read

it. ( thanks Doris)

So since I have no doubt that my Mother was undiagnosed Graves' for

years.... and I know she was in a 'rage' phase, while pregnant with my

brother, who is gay, I wonder if this 'stress' might be part of the answer?

I know she took DES with me, but I am the oldest, and I do not think she

took it with the other two children.

-Pam- putting many pieces together with this thread, but many more to go

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April 20, 2002