Re: An introduction...(probably not my first)

[Guest guest]

Gradually, things are getting better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches tall sometimes.

Wow, she does great things for you, just like the program at large. <smirk>

I truly hope you can wean yourself away from something that greatly appears to frustrate you, and chip away at your sense of self-worth.

You can stay sober without AA. I and others do it every day, week, year, decade.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Problem is, my wife is in anon and is "worried" about me. "Sobriety

isn't enough."

Well, yeah, if you are an ax murderer or serial rapist, then I'd agree the mer fact of your being sober is woefully deficient to qualify as a well-adjusted and moral human being. But do you really need to admit your powerlessness, take constant "inventories" of your shortcomings, and spew them to a "sponsor" or the group? Does doing that really keep you "sane," or does it fill you full of self-loathing?

Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or Higher power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in jail, or become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY disagreement with one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the rewms are speaking to your sponsor?

What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and other scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this begin a free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of stinkin' thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your heresy)?

In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human beings?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Problem is, my wife is in anon and is "worried" about me. "Sobriety

isn't enough."

Well, yeah, if you are an ax murderer or serial rapist, then I'd agree the mer fact of your being sober is woefully deficient to qualify as a well-adjusted and moral human being. But do you really need to admit your powerlessness, take constant "inventories" of your shortcomings, and spew them to a "sponsor" or the group? Does doing that really keep you "sane," or does it fill you full of self-loathing?

Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or Higher power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in jail, or become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY disagreement with one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the rewms are speaking to your sponsor?

What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and other scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this begin a free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of stinkin' thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your heresy)?

In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human beings?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Problem is, my wife is in anon and is "worried" about me. "Sobriety

isn't enough."

Well, yeah, if you are an ax murderer or serial rapist, then I'd agree the mer fact of your being sober is woefully deficient to qualify as a well-adjusted and moral human being. But do you really need to admit your powerlessness, take constant "inventories" of your shortcomings, and spew them to a "sponsor" or the group? Does doing that really keep you "sane," or does it fill you full of self-loathing?

Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or Higher power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in jail, or become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY disagreement with one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the rewms are speaking to your sponsor?

What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and other scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this begin a free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of stinkin' thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your heresy)?

In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human beings?

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I asked: > In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human

> beings?

You answered: Maybe for some...?? I know it's not for me at this point (hopefully

never)....

Yes, maybe for some. I've encountered a few very well-adjusted and open-minded people who are satisfied with AA.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Holly

Seems your're in the same spot I am. I just received an inspiring reply from

(thanks ). I already feel better about the process of breaking

away from A.A. This sort of 'recovery' is viewed as 'clandestine' with my

A.A. peers, and that is the thing which I (we) are trying to break away

from. Please keep posting on your venture, as I feel it is a barometer for

me, as I have been around here a very little time.

I, as you, enjoy this this list. must however get used to the format.

care to all,

An introduction...(probably not my first)

Hi everyone, I've been a member of this discussion list for over a

year but have never posted with any consistency. Mainly because I

don't have time here at work to sort out all of the thoughts that

these discussions evoke. I very much enjoy this list. Brief

history: I started going to AA in September of '99 and subsequently

quit drinking about 2 months later. In the beginning, I attended 2-3

meetings a day. At six months sober, I (to my sponsor's

disappointment) tapered down to about 4-5 a week. At a year I made a

big leap and cut down to about 2 a week. With the help of this

discussion list, and increasing frustration with the principles,

slogans, and cultishness (new word?) of AA, I only attend a meeting

about once every 1.33 weeks. I am hoping to be down to one a month

soon. I figure, with this gradual tapering, that people aren't

likely to notice my disappearance. Mind you, six months ago I was an

AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

of the group is dwindling. It's difficult to lose approval from

others, even though they might be insane. Well, I suppose I'm still

young and desperately want to speak my mind about my misgivings about

AA to my sponsor. I want to tell people off. I want to go into a

blind rage and shut the door on my AA past for good. But I'm just

not doing that for some reason. Gradually, things are getting

better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

tall sometimes. Hopefully, with continued membership to this

discussion board, eventually I will gather enough self-confidence to

leave AA altogether and have a normal life. I suppose I am rambling

now so I'd better get back to work.

Take care,

Holly

[Guest guest]

Holly

Seems your're in the same spot I am. I just received an inspiring reply from

(thanks ). I already feel better about the process of breaking

away from A.A. This sort of 'recovery' is viewed as 'clandestine' with my

A.A. peers, and that is the thing which I (we) are trying to break away

from. Please keep posting on your venture, as I feel it is a barometer for

me, as I have been around here a very little time.

I, as you, enjoy this this list. must however get used to the format.

care to all,

An introduction...(probably not my first)

Hi everyone, I've been a member of this discussion list for over a

year but have never posted with any consistency. Mainly because I

don't have time here at work to sort out all of the thoughts that

these discussions evoke. I very much enjoy this list. Brief

history: I started going to AA in September of '99 and subsequently

quit drinking about 2 months later. In the beginning, I attended 2-3

meetings a day. At six months sober, I (to my sponsor's

disappointment) tapered down to about 4-5 a week. At a year I made a

big leap and cut down to about 2 a week. With the help of this

discussion list, and increasing frustration with the principles,

slogans, and cultishness (new word?) of AA, I only attend a meeting

about once every 1.33 weeks. I am hoping to be down to one a month

soon. I figure, with this gradual tapering, that people aren't

likely to notice my disappearance. Mind you, six months ago I was an

AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

of the group is dwindling. It's difficult to lose approval from

others, even though they might be insane. Well, I suppose I'm still

young and desperately want to speak my mind about my misgivings about

AA to my sponsor. I want to tell people off. I want to go into a

blind rage and shut the door on my AA past for good. But I'm just

not doing that for some reason. Gradually, things are getting

better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

tall sometimes. Hopefully, with continued membership to this

discussion board, eventually I will gather enough self-confidence to

leave AA altogether and have a normal life. I suppose I am rambling

now so I'd better get back to work.

Take care,

Holly

[Guest guest]

Holly, Doug, All,

I'm trying to break away from my 12-step group right now as well.

Problem is, my wife is in anon and is " worried " about me. " Sobriety

isn't enough. " Thing is, I'm still seeing a psychotherapist (for

depression) and I have been doing lots of reading and thinking about

spirituality. And we go to the psychotherapist together for marriage

" counseling. " So I feel like my emotional and spritual growth is still

happening...just not on the groups terms.

I just don't know what to say to her. I've mentioned that I am

triggered during meetings, that I am not keen on Christian dogma, that

I don't think I am powerless and that I want to take responsibility for

my actions. That doesn't seem to matter. See, she went to group to help

the relationship and " help " me with " my " problem. And she likes it a

lot. She has been able to stop obsessing and get back to reality and

let things go that used to really get under her skin. And she has

wanted to pursue spiritual things for a while, but hasn't wanted to go

to " church " . So it's fine. And she said that her group is very strict

on not letting specific religious stuff into the discussion. But for

me, I acknowledge that it has been an important part of my spritual

journey, but it's time to part ways. I don't believe the same things

that the group believes. My home group is about 80% Christian and they

have no qualms about making it known.

Then last night in therapy, she talked about all the *-anons that she

knows that have spouses that left the group and then they drifted apart

and got divorced. Go figure! I feel like she is making group attendance

a requirement for our marriage. The original problems have been totally

ignored in favor of cult thinking. I don't want to necessarily be any

different except to stop acting in the specific ways that have caused

me/us problems. The original idea was to get a handle on my

addiction/behavior, that's why I joined the group.

Well, just wanted to get some things out there to a group that might

understand...

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Holly, Doug, All,

I'm trying to break away from my 12-step group right now as well.

Problem is, my wife is in anon and is " worried " about me. " Sobriety

isn't enough. " Thing is, I'm still seeing a psychotherapist (for

depression) and I have been doing lots of reading and thinking about

spirituality. And we go to the psychotherapist together for marriage

" counseling. " So I feel like my emotional and spritual growth is still

happening...just not on the groups terms.

I just don't know what to say to her. I've mentioned that I am

triggered during meetings, that I am not keen on Christian dogma, that

I don't think I am powerless and that I want to take responsibility for

my actions. That doesn't seem to matter. See, she went to group to help

the relationship and " help " me with " my " problem. And she likes it a

lot. She has been able to stop obsessing and get back to reality and

let things go that used to really get under her skin. And she has

wanted to pursue spiritual things for a while, but hasn't wanted to go

to " church " . So it's fine. And she said that her group is very strict

on not letting specific religious stuff into the discussion. But for

me, I acknowledge that it has been an important part of my spritual

journey, but it's time to part ways. I don't believe the same things

that the group believes. My home group is about 80% Christian and they

have no qualms about making it known.

Then last night in therapy, she talked about all the *-anons that she

knows that have spouses that left the group and then they drifted apart

and got divorced. Go figure! I feel like she is making group attendance

a requirement for our marriage. The original problems have been totally

ignored in favor of cult thinking. I don't want to necessarily be any

different except to stop acting in the specific ways that have caused

me/us problems. The original idea was to get a handle on my

addiction/behavior, that's why I joined the group.

Well, just wanted to get some things out there to a group that might

understand...

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I am very familiar with the phenomenon of so-called alcoholic spouses

being scapegoated for all the failures in a marriage, and how couples

are assured that the program will take care of everything. Trouble

is, often the problem boils down to one spouse simply not liking what

the other does, and believing, wrongly, that if the person who drinks

is sober, they will agree with the non-drinking spouse. This doesn't

work at all. Except the therapist/counselor/whatever is still looking

at the drinking behavior, and doesn't think the non-drinking spouse

has any behavior at all that needs to be changed.

> Holly, Doug, All,

>

> I'm trying to break away from my 12-step group right now as well.

> Problem is, my wife is in anon and is " worried " about me. " Sobriety

> isn't enough. " Thing is, I'm still seeing a psychotherapist (for

> depression) and I have been doing lots of reading and thinking about

> spirituality. And we go to the psychotherapist together for marriage

> " counseling. " So I feel like my emotional and spritual growth is

still

> happening...just not on the groups terms.

>

> I just don't know what to say to her. I've mentioned that I am

> triggered during meetings, that I am not keen on Christian dogma,

that

> I don't think I am powerless and that I want to take responsibility

for

> my actions. That doesn't seem to matter. See, she went to group to

help

> the relationship and " help " me with " my " problem. And she likes it a

> lot. She has been able to stop obsessing and get back to reality and

> let things go that used to really get under her skin. And she has

> wanted to pursue spiritual things for a while, but hasn't wanted to

go

> to " church " . So it's fine. And she said that her group is very

strict

> on not letting specific religious stuff into the discussion. But for

> me, I acknowledge that it has been an important part of my spritual

> journey, but it's time to part ways. I don't believe the same things

> that the group believes. My home group is about 80% Christian and

they

> have no qualms about making it known.

>

> Then last night in therapy, she talked about all the *-anons that

she

> knows that have spouses that left the group and then they drifted

apart

> and got divorced. Go figure! I feel like she is making group

attendance

> a requirement for our marriage. The original problems have been

totally

> ignored in favor of cult thinking. I don't want to necessarily be

any

> different except to stop acting in the specific ways that have

caused

> me/us problems. The original idea was to get a handle on my

> addiction/behavior, that's why I joined the group.

>

> Well, just wanted to get some things out there to a group that might

> understand...

>

> -Cal

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> But do you really need to admit

> your

> powerlessness, take constant " inventories " of your shortcomings, and

> spew

> them to a " sponsor " or the group? Does doing that really keep you

> " sane, " or

> does it fill you full of self-loathing?

No. No. No. No. Yes. (in that order).

>

> Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or

> Higher

> power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in

> jail, or

> become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY

> disagreement with

> one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the

> rewms are

> speaking to your sponsor?

No. No. No. No.

>

> What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and

> other

> scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this

> begin a

> free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of

> stinkin'

> thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your

> heresy)?

Well, luckily she isn't real big on the slogans, but she certainly

hasn't been to keen on any of my " research " . We both know that I can

find supporting evidence for either side if I look hard enough.

> In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human

> beings?

Maybe for some...?? I know it's not for me at this point (hopefully

never)....

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> But do you really need to admit

> your

> powerlessness, take constant " inventories " of your shortcomings, and

> spew

> them to a " sponsor " or the group? Does doing that really keep you

> " sane, " or

> does it fill you full of self-loathing?

No. No. No. No. Yes. (in that order).

>

> Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or

> Higher

> power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in

> jail, or

> become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY

> disagreement with

> one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the

> rewms are

> speaking to your sponsor?

No. No. No. No.

>

> What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and

> other

> scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this

> begin a

> free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of

> stinkin'

> thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your

> heresy)?

Well, luckily she isn't real big on the slogans, but she certainly

hasn't been to keen on any of my " research " . We both know that I can

find supporting evidence for either side if I look hard enough.

> In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human

> beings?

Maybe for some...?? I know it's not for me at this point (hopefully

never)....

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> But do you really need to admit

> your

> powerlessness, take constant " inventories " of your shortcomings, and

> spew

> them to a " sponsor " or the group? Does doing that really keep you

> " sane, " or

> does it fill you full of self-loathing?

No. No. No. No. Yes. (in that order).

>

> Do you live in terror that if you don't attend enough meetings -- or

> Higher

> power forbid, stopped going altogether -- you would die, end up in

> jail, or

> become institutionalized? Do you feel free to express ANY

> disagreement with

> one word of the Steps, the slogans, or the BB when you are in the

> rewms are

> speaking to your sponsor?

No. No. No. No.

>

> What would the reaction be if you suggested that psychologists and

> other

> scholars feel AA has aspects that are harmful to many? Would this

> begin a

> free and open discussion, or might you hear that they are full of

> stinkin'

> thinkin' ( or some other vapid slogan employed to rapidly cutoff your

> heresy)?

Well, luckily she isn't real big on the slogans, but she certainly

hasn't been to keen on any of my " research " . We both know that I can

find supporting evidence for either side if I look hard enough.

> In sum, is this a program fit for self-respecting, thinking human

> beings?

Maybe for some...?? I know it's not for me at this point (hopefully

never)....

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

>Hopefully, with continued membership to this

> discussion board, eventually I will gather enough self-confidence

to

> leave AA altogether and have a normal life

Hi Holly,

I'm sure you will. I was a AA " taperer " too. For me, it seemed

perfectly natural and just the sort of process you are following at

the moment. I am sure there will come a point where you actually come

to do the *leaving* bit too! Collectively there'll be lots of ideas

here, when you feel you're ready! ;-)

For what it's worth, I had lots of fears, but NONE of the bad things

came to pass. No confrontations, no kindaps and no relapses. <g>

Good Luck,

Mack

[Guest guest]

>Hopefully, with continued membership to this

> discussion board, eventually I will gather enough self-confidence

to

> leave AA altogether and have a normal life

Hi Holly,

I'm sure you will. I was a AA " taperer " too. For me, it seemed

perfectly natural and just the sort of process you are following at

the moment. I am sure there will come a point where you actually come

to do the *leaving* bit too! Collectively there'll be lots of ideas

here, when you feel you're ready! ;-)

For what it's worth, I had lots of fears, but NONE of the bad things

came to pass. No confrontations, no kindaps and no relapses. <g>

Good Luck,

Mack

[Guest guest]

>Hopefully, with continued membership to this

> discussion board, eventually I will gather enough self-confidence

to

> leave AA altogether and have a normal life

Hi Holly,

I'm sure you will. I was a AA " taperer " too. For me, it seemed

perfectly natural and just the sort of process you are following at

the moment. I am sure there will come a point where you actually come

to do the *leaving* bit too! Collectively there'll be lots of ideas

here, when you feel you're ready! ;-)

For what it's worth, I had lots of fears, but NONE of the bad things

came to pass. No confrontations, no kindaps and no relapses. <g>

Good Luck,

Mack

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly & all,

It was nice to read your post. Wow, you certainly have been a

dedicated member of AA. It would be scary to end any relationship of

that intensity and involvement. Good, bad or ugly, support is

support. I'm sure it's as difficult to leave a street-gang as it is

the priesthood, say.

Ending organized involvement with recovery was really hard for me

too, though thankfully it wasn't a 12-step program (it was a

year-and-a-half of therapy groups with my rehab center). I felt cut

adrift and feared relapse as a result. So I set about finding other

ways of staying connected; various groups (including some casual

12-step!), and indeed lists like this one. None of it " worked " in any

sustained way, and most went by the wayside. But by the time that

sunk in, I had found some strength in my own personal recovery, and

here I am doing okay.

I still find recovery hard sometimes, and sometimes still feel the

need to be connected, hence popping up on a list like this. I somehow

doubt that will ever change. In a recent post, Rita said " Most of us

do not feel the need to attend any recovery meetings at all " . I count

myself in that number now, but it certainly wasn't always so black

and white.

Just wanted to share, hope you're doing alright.

[Guest guest]

Hi Holly & all,

It was nice to read your post. Wow, you certainly have been a

dedicated member of AA. It would be scary to end any relationship of

that intensity and involvement. Good, bad or ugly, support is

support. I'm sure it's as difficult to leave a street-gang as it is

the priesthood, say.

Ending organized involvement with recovery was really hard for me

too, though thankfully it wasn't a 12-step program (it was a

year-and-a-half of therapy groups with my rehab center). I felt cut

adrift and feared relapse as a result. So I set about finding other

ways of staying connected; various groups (including some casual

12-step!), and indeed lists like this one. None of it " worked " in any

sustained way, and most went by the wayside. But by the time that

sunk in, I had found some strength in my own personal recovery, and

here I am doing okay.

I still find recovery hard sometimes, and sometimes still feel the

need to be connected, hence popping up on a list like this. I somehow

doubt that will ever change. In a recent post, Rita said " Most of us

do not feel the need to attend any recovery meetings at all " . I count

myself in that number now, but it certainly wasn't always so black

and white.

Just wanted to share, hope you're doing alright.

[Guest guest]

An introduction...(probably not my first)

<snip>

> Mind you, six months ago I was an

> AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

> articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

> of the group is dwindling.

<snip>

> Well, I suppose I'm still young

<snip>

> Gradually, things are getting

> better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

> tall sometimes.

And therein lies the problem: a bunch of old farts, many of whom

probably ruined their lives by abusing alcohol for longer than you've been

alive (!), holding themselves out at shining examples of what you should

become.

Face it (because they won't) -- you wised up a whole lot earlier

than they did, so you must have more on the ball than they did.

It's kind of like the scorn they lay on " normies. " Why the hell

should I look down on somebody who didn't make the same mistakes I did?

After recognizing that my drinking was self-destructive, I can learn a lot

more from those people who " intuitively know how to handle things that used

to baffle me. "

A geezer who wore a gold-plated 12-year chip around his neck once

corralled me outside a meeting and asked, " Do you know what an oldtimer is? "

I wasn't into playing the game, so I asked " What? " He took great

amusement in telling everybody within earshot that I was so stupid I didn't

know what an oldtimer was.

" Har, har, har, it's somebody who doesn't drink and doesn't die! " he

finally said, obviously very pleased with himself (although I didn't think

the punchline was worth the wait).

" I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer than they

drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and you said

you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an oldtimer

is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started avoiding me

because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

I went to a couple hundred NA meetings in different parts of New Jersey, and

I never once saw anyone try to belittle anyone, or make anyone feel

inferior. Mike.

An introduction...(probably not my first)

>

>

> <snip>

> > Mind you, six months ago I was an

> > AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

> > articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

> > of the group is dwindling.

> <snip>

> > Well, I suppose I'm still young

> <snip>

> > Gradually, things are getting

> > better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

> > tall sometimes.

>

> And therein lies the problem: a bunch of old farts, many of whom

> probably ruined their lives by abusing alcohol for longer than you've been

> alive (!), holding themselves out at shining examples of what you should

> become.

> Face it (because they won't) -- you wised up a whole lot earlier

> than they did, so you must have more on the ball than they did.

> It's kind of like the scorn they lay on " normies. " Why the hell

> should I look down on somebody who didn't make the same mistakes I did?

> After recognizing that my drinking was self-destructive, I can learn a lot

> more from those people who " intuitively know how to handle things that

used

> to baffle me. "

> A geezer who wore a gold-plated 12-year chip around his neck once

> corralled me outside a meeting and asked, " Do you know what an oldtimer

is? "

> I wasn't into playing the game, so I asked " What? " He took great

> amusement in telling everybody within earshot that I was so stupid I

didn't

> know what an oldtimer was.

> " Har, har, har, it's somebody who doesn't drink and doesn't die! "

he

> finally said, obviously very pleased with himself (although I didn't think

> the punchline was worth the wait).

> " I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer than

they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I went to a couple hundred NA meetings in different parts of New Jersey, and

I never once saw anyone try to belittle anyone, or make anyone feel

inferior. Mike.

An introduction...(probably not my first)

>

>

> <snip>

> > Mind you, six months ago I was an

> > AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

> > articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

> > of the group is dwindling.

> <snip>

> > Well, I suppose I'm still young

> <snip>

> > Gradually, things are getting

> > better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

> > tall sometimes.

>

> And therein lies the problem: a bunch of old farts, many of whom

> probably ruined their lives by abusing alcohol for longer than you've been

> alive (!), holding themselves out at shining examples of what you should

> become.

> Face it (because they won't) -- you wised up a whole lot earlier

> than they did, so you must have more on the ball than they did.

> It's kind of like the scorn they lay on " normies. " Why the hell

> should I look down on somebody who didn't make the same mistakes I did?

> After recognizing that my drinking was self-destructive, I can learn a lot

> more from those people who " intuitively know how to handle things that

used

> to baffle me. "

> A geezer who wore a gold-plated 12-year chip around his neck once

> corralled me outside a meeting and asked, " Do you know what an oldtimer

is? "

> I wasn't into playing the game, so I asked " What? " He took great

> amusement in telling everybody within earshot that I was so stupid I

didn't

> know what an oldtimer was.

> " Har, har, har, it's somebody who doesn't drink and doesn't die! "

he

> finally said, obviously very pleased with himself (although I didn't think

> the punchline was worth the wait).

> " I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer than

they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I went to a couple hundred NA meetings in different parts of New Jersey, and

I never once saw anyone try to belittle anyone, or make anyone feel

inferior. Mike.

An introduction...(probably not my first)

>

>

> <snip>

> > Mind you, six months ago I was an

> > AA superstar of sorts: going to plenty of meetings, young,

> > articulate, into service work, but now the approval from the elders

> > of the group is dwindling.

> <snip>

> > Well, I suppose I'm still young

> <snip>

> > Gradually, things are getting

> > better, but talking to my sponsor still makes me feel about 2 inches

> > tall sometimes.

>

> And therein lies the problem: a bunch of old farts, many of whom

> probably ruined their lives by abusing alcohol for longer than you've been

> alive (!), holding themselves out at shining examples of what you should

> become.

> Face it (because they won't) -- you wised up a whole lot earlier

> than they did, so you must have more on the ball than they did.

> It's kind of like the scorn they lay on " normies. " Why the hell

> should I look down on somebody who didn't make the same mistakes I did?

> After recognizing that my drinking was self-destructive, I can learn a lot

> more from those people who " intuitively know how to handle things that

used

> to baffle me. "

> A geezer who wore a gold-plated 12-year chip around his neck once

> corralled me outside a meeting and asked, " Do you know what an oldtimer

is? "

> I wasn't into playing the game, so I asked " What? " He took great

> amusement in telling everybody within earshot that I was so stupid I

didn't

> know what an oldtimer was.

> " Har, har, har, it's somebody who doesn't drink and doesn't die! "

he

> finally said, obviously very pleased with himself (although I didn't think

> the punchline was worth the wait).

> " I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer than

they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

" I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer

than they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and

you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started

avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

Lol, I will. :^D

My favorite quote for explaining 12-step involvement by smart people

is:

" When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical thinking skills are

not foremost in our armentarium. " -Annie C.

[Guest guest]

" I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer

than they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and

you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started

avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

Lol, I will. :^D

My favorite quote for explaining 12-step involvement by smart people

is:

" When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical thinking skills are

not foremost in our armentarium. " -Annie C.

[Guest guest]

" I always thought it was somebody who's been sober longer

than they

> drank, " I replied. " Let's see...you've been sober 12 years... and

you said

> you didn't stop drinking until you were sixty... since becoming an

oldtimer

> is so important to you, better hope you live to be a hundred. "

> Needless to say, the old guys at that meeting started

avoiding me

> because I saw through the game. Feel free to use the line.

>

> -- Bob

Lol, I will. :^D

My favorite quote for explaining 12-step involvement by smart people

is:

" When we are at a vulnerable time, our critical thinking skills are

not foremost in our armentarium. " -Annie C.