Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

May 12, 2001

> In a message dated 5/12/01 2:46:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> watts_pete@... writes:

>

> > If these worthies couldnt

> > " work the program well enough " - what bleedin' chance do the rest of

> > us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth

> > examining?

> >

>

> Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it

in

> your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

>

> --Mona--

May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

Above all, Keep Coming Back.

--Bob

May 12, 2001

Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

> In a message dated 5/12/01 2:46:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> watts_pete@... writes:

>

> > If these worthies couldnt

> > " work the program well enough " - what bleedin' chance do the rest of

> > us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth

> > examining?

> >

>

> Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it

in

> your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

>

> --Mona--

May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

Above all, Keep Coming Back.

--Bob

May 12, 2001

May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

Above all, Keep Coming Back.

These days, I'm keepin' it simple, staying off the pity pot and got down off the cross (cuz others need the wood), and am letting go and letting Doorknob, er, God. As for you, please keep an open mind, or at least fake it till you make it.

--Mona--

May 12, 2001

May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

Above all, Keep Coming Back.

These days, I'm keepin' it simple, staying off the pity pot and got down off the cross (cuz others need the wood), and am letting go and letting Doorknob, er, God. As for you, please keep an open mind, or at least fake it till you make it.

--Mona--

May 12, 2001

If you had clinical need for Xanax he had no reason to withhold it from you; the PDR would state with benzo's to take an addiction into consideration, not let it be a contraindication. Many addiction medicine doctors are "acting as if", following the greatest claims of the NCADD and Dr. Gordis which change every week or so.

I think I did at one point, altho having been put on the Paxil and Neurontin I don't anymore, except in very rare circumstances. Oddly, today was one of those circumstances. My 22-year-old son had a party and I did the cooking.

For the first time since the spring my oldest son died 4 years ago, I saw a number of his friends. I pretty much became overwrought with the sense that "someone was missing" from the party, and took two Xanax offered to me by a friend.

Ever so astonishingly, I didn't drink, and didn't even want to.

--Mona--

May 12, 2001

If you had clinical need for Xanax he had no reason to withhold it from you; the PDR would state with benzo's to take an addiction into consideration, not let it be a contraindication. Many addiction medicine doctors are "acting as if", following the greatest claims of the NCADD and Dr. Gordis which change every week or so.

I think I did at one point, altho having been put on the Paxil and Neurontin I don't anymore, except in very rare circumstances. Oddly, today was one of those circumstances. My 22-year-old son had a party and I did the cooking.

For the first time since the spring my oldest son died 4 years ago, I saw a number of his friends. I pretty much became overwrought with the sense that "someone was missing" from the party, and took two Xanax offered to me by a friend.

Ever so astonishingly, I didn't drink, and didn't even want to.

--Mona--

May 12, 2001

And didn't I hear that Bill himself died of tobacco-related causes? I can't remember where I heard that - maybe here.

Emphysema.

May 12, 2001

And didn't I hear that Bill himself died of tobacco-related causes? I can't remember where I heard that - maybe here.

Emphysema.

May 12, 2001

If one is " restored to sanity " in step 2, then what more

does one need? Sanity should do the trick. Go home now

folks, you are sane.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:36:21 -0700

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA

> > members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a

> > " spiritual disease, " and as such, if one works the 12 Steps --

>particularly

> > the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and " restored " to

>sanity,

>as

> > per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently

>posted

> > that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover

>from

> > any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive

> > Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

> >

> > These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely " suppresses " the

>symptoms

> > of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their

> " miracle. "

> > One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not

> > medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of

> " reasoning. "

>

> So much for the claims that Bill W was sober since the 'thirties,

>since he dropped acid in the 'fifties.

> Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

>depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does

>anybody

>know what a " good " fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

>took decades to get it right?

>

>-- Bob

>

May 12, 2001

If one is " restored to sanity " in step 2, then what more

does one need? Sanity should do the trick. Go home now

folks, you are sane.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:36:21 -0700

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA

> > members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a

> > " spiritual disease, " and as such, if one works the 12 Steps --

>particularly

> > the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and " restored " to

>sanity,

>as

> > per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently

>posted

> > that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover

>from

> > any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive

> > Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

> >

> > These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely " suppresses " the

>symptoms

> > of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their

> " miracle. "

> > One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not

> > medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of

> " reasoning. "

>

> So much for the claims that Bill W was sober since the 'thirties,

>since he dropped acid in the 'fifties.

> Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

>depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does

>anybody

>know what a " good " fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

>took decades to get it right?

>

>-- Bob

>

May 12, 2001

If one is " restored to sanity " in step 2, then what more

does one need? Sanity should do the trick. Go home now

folks, you are sane.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 20:36:21 -0700

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

> > Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA

> > members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a

> > " spiritual disease, " and as such, if one works the 12 Steps --

>particularly

> > the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and " restored " to

>sanity,

>as

> > per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently

>posted

> > that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover

>from

> > any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive

> > Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

> >

> > These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely " suppresses " the

>symptoms

> > of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their

> " miracle. "

> > One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not

> > medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of

> " reasoning. "

>

> So much for the claims that Bill W was sober since the 'thirties,

>since he dropped acid in the 'fifties.

> Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

>depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does

>anybody

>know what a " good " fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

>took decades to get it right?

>

>-- Bob

>

May 12, 2001

Mona --

I have lost very few gross-out contests in my life.

Congratulations. I just blew chunks.

-- Bob

Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

> In a message dated 5/12/01 4:00:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> bmarshall@... writes:

>

> > May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

> > Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

> > Above all, Keep Coming Back.

> >

>

> These days, I'm keepin' it simple, staying off the pity pot and got down

off

> the cross (cuz others need the wood), and am letting go and letting

Doorknob,

> er, God. As for you, please keep an open mind, or at least fake it till

you

> make it.

>

> --Mona--

>

May 12, 2001

----- Original Message -----

>

> I think I did at one point, altho having been put on the Paxil and

Neurontin

> I don't anymore, except in very rare circumstances. Oddly, today was one

of

> those circumstances. My 22-year-old son had a party and I did the

cooking.

> For the first time since the spring my oldest son died 4 years ago, I saw

a

> number of his friends. I pretty much became overwrought with the sense

that

> " someone was missing " from the party, and took two Xanax offered to me by

a

> friend.

>

> Ever so astonishingly, I didn't drink, and didn't even want to.

>

I was taking some Tylenol 3 and Soma last summer after tweaking my

back. The doc knows my booze history, and expressed no concern about my

using these meds, just admonishing me to follow directions.

My wife got very amused, as she's never seen me under the influence

of anything. I did get somewhat of a pleasant sensation, but had no great

desire to use the stuff other than as directed. It stayed in the medicine

cabinet for months, with occasional use, and I haven't had the 'scrips

refilled.

I think the big justification for alcohol or drug abuse is the " it's

just this once " mentality. If you realize over a period of time that you are

overindulging, and doing it far more often than you intend to, it's probably

healthy to abstain.

There is a guy in our town who used to (and probably still does, I

just don't subject myself to it any more) talk about the rum cake at a

wedding that set him on a bender that ended in his ruining the occasion. Of

course, he had no idea there was rum in the cake until the next day, when

his faithful enabling wife came up with something (other than her husband)

to blame.

I am convinced that's a case of " post hoc, ergo propter hoc " or " B

follows A, therefore A causes B. "

When I have the occasional dealcoholized beer (Clausthauler by

Heinekin, and St. i Girl are both pretty good) or glass of wine (why

can't they make a good red), I find that I never have more than two and,

frankly, wouldn't want to drink the real stuff because the memory of

consequences of my alcohol abuse make the thought of being under the

influence most unpleasant.

Of course, if I was " powerless, " the minute amount of alcohol in the

stuff (about the same as a glass of orange juice) would be enough to set off

that damn disease!

-- Bob

May 13, 2001

There will be a Programme on British Tv tonight about how 1.5 million people are hooked on tranquillisers ( mostly benzos ) , which are prescribed by their doctors despite the concerns about addiction some years ago . Will watch and see what it has to say

May 13, 2001

There will be a Programme on British Tv tonight about how 1.5 million people are hooked on tranquillisers ( mostly benzos ) , which are prescribed by their doctors despite the concerns about addiction some years ago . Will watch and see what it has to say

May 13, 2001

I once won $35 in a gross out dare type of thing. I ad to eat a

newt(salamander) not simply by just swallowing it, but I had to bite it

into at least two pieces, then swallow the remains. I also drank the glass

of water that he lived in(It was filthy). I didn't vomit from the task, but

a witness did. The next day, I almost vomited just from recalling the feat.

It should be mentioned that I was very drunk at the time of the contest.

Mike.

Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>

> > In a message dated 5/12/01 4:00:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > bmarshall@... writes:

> >

> > > May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

> > > Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

> > > Above all, Keep Coming Back.

> > >

> >

> > These days, I'm keepin' it simple, staying off the pity pot and got down

> off

> > the cross (cuz others need the wood), and am letting go and letting

> Doorknob,

> > er, God. As for you, please keep an open mind, or at least fake it till

> you

> > make it.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

>

May 13, 2001

I once won $35 in a gross out dare type of thing. I ad to eat a

newt(salamander) not simply by just swallowing it, but I had to bite it

into at least two pieces, then swallow the remains. I also drank the glass

of water that he lived in(It was filthy). I didn't vomit from the task, but

a witness did. The next day, I almost vomited just from recalling the feat.

It should be mentioned that I was very drunk at the time of the contest.

Mike.

Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>

> > In a message dated 5/12/01 4:00:24 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > bmarshall@... writes:

> >

> > > May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

> > > Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

> > > Above all, Keep Coming Back.

> > >

> >

> > These days, I'm keepin' it simple, staying off the pity pot and got down

> off

> > the cross (cuz others need the wood), and am letting go and letting

> Doorknob,

> > er, God. As for you, please keep an open mind, or at least fake it till

> you

> > make it.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

>

May 13, 2001

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> It's also rather sad to watch " mixed " marriages break up when the AA

> party cannot take part in family gatherings, go on holiday or even

> visit a restaurant, because of this acquired fear of wet places.

I think " mixed " marraiges are more likely to break up due to one

party being a cult member, than because of any fear of wet places. After

all, the BB says the non-AA member should just put up with any degree of BS

their drunken spouse may dish out, and they are being " unspiritual " if they

choose not to tolerate it.

The BB does say someplace that AA members should be able to have

lunch in a bar with a friend or attend a " plain old whoopee party, " and that

booze will show up anywhere, including the north pole where a friendly

Eskimo might arrive with a bottle of ol' demon rum.

I have seen very few AA marraiges that lasted any real length of

time... mostly two looney tunes who run into trouble when the nutso group

starts interfering in the relationship.

<snip>

> So much is in the mind... I saw a recent report that the quality of

> many street drugs was so inferior that addicts were getting high on

> substances with almost no active constituant. Nevertheless, the

> removal from an environment must be of some importance otherwise the

> US would have been overrun by addicts, following the Viet-Nam war?

Certainly environment has much to do with it. You ever try to spend

any amount of time around a heavy pot smoker when you're not stoned? It

quickly becomes tiresome.

Same thing with hard-core barflies. I would have little in common

with somebody who knocks off work at 3:30 and retires to their customary bar

stool to start poundin' them down. (I also find that I have little in common

with the same barflies who simply abandon their bar stool for a chair in

meetings, and start hanging around with the same people while doing little

else with their lives.)

When removed from those environments, they become far less

appealing. That's why many people mature out of drug or alcohol abuse.

May 13, 2001

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> It's also rather sad to watch " mixed " marriages break up when the AA

> party cannot take part in family gatherings, go on holiday or even

> visit a restaurant, because of this acquired fear of wet places.

I think " mixed " marraiges are more likely to break up due to one

party being a cult member, than because of any fear of wet places. After

all, the BB says the non-AA member should just put up with any degree of BS

their drunken spouse may dish out, and they are being " unspiritual " if they

choose not to tolerate it.

The BB does say someplace that AA members should be able to have

lunch in a bar with a friend or attend a " plain old whoopee party, " and that

booze will show up anywhere, including the north pole where a friendly

Eskimo might arrive with a bottle of ol' demon rum.

I have seen very few AA marraiges that lasted any real length of

time... mostly two looney tunes who run into trouble when the nutso group

starts interfering in the relationship.

<snip>

> So much is in the mind... I saw a recent report that the quality of

> many street drugs was so inferior that addicts were getting high on

> substances with almost no active constituant. Nevertheless, the

> removal from an environment must be of some importance otherwise the

> US would have been overrun by addicts, following the Viet-Nam war?

Certainly environment has much to do with it. You ever try to spend

any amount of time around a heavy pot smoker when you're not stoned? It

quickly becomes tiresome.

Same thing with hard-core barflies. I would have little in common

with somebody who knocks off work at 3:30 and retires to their customary bar

stool to start poundin' them down. (I also find that I have little in common

with the same barflies who simply abandon their bar stool for a chair in

meetings, and start hanging around with the same people while doing little

else with their lives.)

When removed from those environments, they become far less

appealing. That's why many people mature out of drug or alcohol abuse.

May 13, 2001

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> It's also rather sad to watch " mixed " marriages break up when the AA

> party cannot take part in family gatherings, go on holiday or even

> visit a restaurant, because of this acquired fear of wet places.

I think " mixed " marraiges are more likely to break up due to one

party being a cult member, than because of any fear of wet places. After

all, the BB says the non-AA member should just put up with any degree of BS

their drunken spouse may dish out, and they are being " unspiritual " if they

choose not to tolerate it.

The BB does say someplace that AA members should be able to have

lunch in a bar with a friend or attend a " plain old whoopee party, " and that

booze will show up anywhere, including the north pole where a friendly

Eskimo might arrive with a bottle of ol' demon rum.

I have seen very few AA marraiges that lasted any real length of

time... mostly two looney tunes who run into trouble when the nutso group

starts interfering in the relationship.

<snip>

> So much is in the mind... I saw a recent report that the quality of

> many street drugs was so inferior that addicts were getting high on

> substances with almost no active constituant. Nevertheless, the

> removal from an environment must be of some importance otherwise the

> US would have been overrun by addicts, following the Viet-Nam war?

Certainly environment has much to do with it. You ever try to spend

any amount of time around a heavy pot smoker when you're not stoned? It

quickly becomes tiresome.

Same thing with hard-core barflies. I would have little in common

with somebody who knocks off work at 3:30 and retires to their customary bar

stool to start poundin' them down. (I also find that I have little in common

with the same barflies who simply abandon their bar stool for a chair in

meetings, and start hanging around with the same people while doing little

else with their lives.)

When removed from those environments, they become far less

appealing. That's why many people mature out of drug or alcohol abuse.

May 14, 2001

<< So much is in the mind... I saw a recent report that the quality of

many street drugs was so inferior that addicts were getting high on

substances with almost no active constituant. Nevertheless, the

removal from an environment must be of some importance otherwise the

US would have been overrun by addicts, following the Viet-Nam war?

>>

I'm starting to agree that Americans are in trouble if they're:

1. addicted

2. not addicted

What's with this infatuation we have with addiction? Here's a scary

statistic:

64% of Americans in 1999 feared that a family member would become addicted

I was breezing through a stat sheet which basically concluded that most

people aren't terribly interested in drug politics because they have more

immediate concerns (i.e. self-will run riot) and aren't too excited to hear

that we've managed to potentially keep from getting worse (at best) while

only throwing 5+ x as much money as 5 years ago into the drug war inferno.

Could they be convinced because every direction they look, including

medicine, is elaborately explaining, in steptalk, the

" theory/concept/hallucination " that it is a disease that strikes all walks of

life without warning? What is with this ignorant, orgasmic fantasy of the

junkie's life? Sociology classes are centered around " studying " the

drug-dealing socioeconomic class (wonder if they did biopsychosocial's on

these socioeconomic leaders?) My psychology professor goes from talking about

Skinner's puzzle boxes to explaining operant conditioning with slides of a

girl shooting up in a subway bathroom, and explains unconditioned stimuli bla

bla bla revolving around broken tiles and dirty toilets. " Now we're talking

about heroin here, not, like, popping a couple vikes (Vicodin) on Saturday

night with your roommates! " he exclaims. Oh, now that explains it, we were

all wondering whether it had to be the " hard stuff " . If the girl in the

slides ever made it to a methadone clinic, she's become a specialist in

endorphin deficincies and point everyone to little cartoons on the NCADD

website that show how synaptically disadvantaged she is without something to

keep her " normal " .

May 14, 2001