Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

[Guest guest]

Question - what's the reasoning people have for saying that using anti-depressants is not sober

Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a "spiritual disease," and as such, if one works the 12 Steps -- particularly the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and "restored" to sanity, as per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently posted that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover from any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely "suppresses" the symptoms of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their "miracle."

One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of "reasoning."

In 1976, the General Services arm of AA issued a bulletin announcing that AA who took antidepressants were either not sober, or imperiling their sobriety. Now, at the time the Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors widely prescribed today for anxiety and depression were not yet invented. (I believe Effexor is one of these.) Anxious and depressed people were getting benzodiazapines like Valium, Librium and Ativan from their doctors, and eating them like candy.

But, these are addictive, and mood-altering. My shrink -- who practices addiction medicine -- says they act on the brain almost identically to alcohol; he claims Xanax is just booze that you can't smell on your breath.

Since then, the SSRIs have come out, and AA has somewhat relaxed its attitude and is more accepting of the SSRIs, but not all individual AA members have followed suit. Sponsors often advise their sponsees to go off of their psych meds, and this has led to enormous problems for some individuals, and some say it has even resulted in suicides.

But SSRIs are not mood-altering in the way Xanax is -- it doesn't make one high. SSRIs balance the chemicals in the brain to prevent mood swings and the inundation of the neuro-chemicals that signal too much stress.

Additionally, many anti-seizure medications have also been discovered to stabilize mood quite well.

Myself, I take Paxil, an SSRI particularly effective for depression combined with excessive anxiety. I also take Neurontin, an anti-seizure med that keeps my mood on an even keel. As studies are beginning to report, alcoholics new to recovery can have much less likelihood of relapse if their emotional state (frequently greatly distorted and disturbed by years of excessive drinking) is tended to with appropriate medication.

So, if some idjit wants to hold that I am not sober, let him. I could give a rat's ass, because I feel really good for the first time in years. My doctor is trustworthy, and because I am an alcoholic would not give me Xanax if I begged and/or and bribed him (even tho I've never been addicted to it)-- but he is very strongly supportive of my being on Paxil and Neurontin. As they say in AA, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Question - what's the reasoning people have for saying that using anti-depressants is not sober

Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a "spiritual disease," and as such, if one works the 12 Steps -- particularly the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and "restored" to sanity, as per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently posted that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover from any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely "suppresses" the symptoms of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their "miracle."

One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of "reasoning."

In 1976, the General Services arm of AA issued a bulletin announcing that AA who took antidepressants were either not sober, or imperiling their sobriety. Now, at the time the Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors widely prescribed today for anxiety and depression were not yet invented. (I believe Effexor is one of these.) Anxious and depressed people were getting benzodiazapines like Valium, Librium and Ativan from their doctors, and eating them like candy.

But, these are addictive, and mood-altering. My shrink -- who practices addiction medicine -- says they act on the brain almost identically to alcohol; he claims Xanax is just booze that you can't smell on your breath.

Since then, the SSRIs have come out, and AA has somewhat relaxed its attitude and is more accepting of the SSRIs, but not all individual AA members have followed suit. Sponsors often advise their sponsees to go off of their psych meds, and this has led to enormous problems for some individuals, and some say it has even resulted in suicides.

But SSRIs are not mood-altering in the way Xanax is -- it doesn't make one high. SSRIs balance the chemicals in the brain to prevent mood swings and the inundation of the neuro-chemicals that signal too much stress.

Additionally, many anti-seizure medications have also been discovered to stabilize mood quite well.

Myself, I take Paxil, an SSRI particularly effective for depression combined with excessive anxiety. I also take Neurontin, an anti-seizure med that keeps my mood on an even keel. As studies are beginning to report, alcoholics new to recovery can have much less likelihood of relapse if their emotional state (frequently greatly distorted and disturbed by years of excessive drinking) is tended to with appropriate medication.

So, if some idjit wants to hold that I am not sober, let him. I could give a rat's ass, because I feel really good for the first time in years. My doctor is trustworthy, and because I am an alcoholic would not give me Xanax if I begged and/or and bribed him (even tho I've never been addicted to it)-- but he is very strongly supportive of my being on Paxil and Neurontin. As they say in AA, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

.. Ever know anyone get totally loaded on benzos from taking them *as prescribed*???

Nope.

Ever know anyone who got

loaded on them because they "lost control" and couldnt stop cramming them in their mouth?

Yes. He was in rehab with me in 12/99, and going through the tortures of the damned in withdrawal. We drunks were given Librium, and feeling pretty good, but he got nothing, zero, zip. He was so anxious he was ready to jump out of his skin. The first day he was paroled and became a day-patient, he came to group totally loaded, and actually pulled out a small white envelope *in *group and popped more Xanax into his mouth.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

.. Ever know anyone get totally loaded on benzos from taking them *as prescribed*???

Nope.

Ever know anyone who got

loaded on them because they "lost control" and couldnt stop cramming them in their mouth?

Yes. He was in rehab with me in 12/99, and going through the tortures of the damned in withdrawal. We drunks were given Librium, and feeling pretty good, but he got nothing, zero, zip. He was so anxious he was ready to jump out of his skin. The first day he was paroled and became a day-patient, he came to group totally loaded, and actually pulled out a small white envelope *in *group and popped more Xanax into his mouth.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does anybody

know what a "good" fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

took decades to get it right?

I've pointed out the LSD use, and the depression, but the usual response is that Bill was not working his program as well as Bob, who really got it right. But this fellow I've been posting to in ab. alcohol, Gerard, is just bizarre. Even the other AA there think he's fanatical and myopic. He rejects the 12 x 12 as being shot through with corruption, and insists that the fellowship is a false god & etc. For him, if it ain't in the BB, it ain't true. And the BB is inerrant. God does all if one humbly lets him, and ego is the supreme enemy to be vanquished, or one will drink. Or, if one doesn't drink, one still won't really be "recovering" -- one will be a sober sack of sheer misery.

Such a person is beyond reason, and I don't much try anymore.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does anybody

know what a "good" fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

took decades to get it right?

I've pointed out the LSD use, and the depression, but the usual response is that Bill was not working his program as well as Bob, who really got it right. But this fellow I've been posting to in ab. alcohol, Gerard, is just bizarre. Even the other AA there think he's fanatical and myopic. He rejects the 12 x 12 as being shot through with corruption, and insists that the fellowship is a false god & etc. For him, if it ain't in the BB, it ain't true. And the BB is inerrant. God does all if one humbly lets him, and ego is the supreme enemy to be vanquished, or one will drink. Or, if one doesn't drink, one still won't really be "recovering" -- one will be a sober sack of sheer misery.

Such a person is beyond reason, and I don't much try anymore.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Oh my.....bringing back memories. I tried antidepressants from, um, around

1977 till 1982. Damn things didn't do a thing for me at all (except cost

money and made me weird, and one nearly killed me) and I stopped. (And

this is not to invalidate Mona. They work fine for some people. Different

strokes for different folks. I'm glad that Mona found something that works.

I'm supportive of Mona in this.)

But did I ever take the flak! Oh my! There was this one guy who sat me

down and gave me a lecture about " drugs " . It was for my own good, of

course, and he really laid it on me. Lecture, lecture, lecture. And all

the while he was talking he was slugging down the coffee and toking on the

cigarettes, chain smoking. I listened sincerely to his lecture lecture

lecture and conversed with him as reasonably as I could. But at the end I

pointed to his coffee cup and his cigarette and asked him about those drugs

of nicotine and caffeine.

Oh, man, did he explode! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!! " Wow! Don't question

the AA Cuppa Cawfee and the AA Cigarette! A Drug Is A Drug Is A

Drug....unless it's the sacred Coffee and Cigarette...

And then there was this guy who kept seeing Jesus coming into his bedroom.

Then he got medication and Jesus stopped bugging him and coming around. It

was much easier to live a normal life without Jesus coming around and

messing around in his bedroom. I was supportive of the medication and glad

that our friend could live a more normal life. But of course there were

those steppers who gave him a really hard time. They just didn't get it

that the medication allowed this man to function as a normal person.

Do what works, Mona. Good for you!

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> Well, I'll tell you the gist of what I've read, been told by certain AA

> members, and my doctor. The basic schtick is this: alcoholism is a

> " spiritual disease, " and as such, if one works the 12 Steps --

particularly

> the 4th and 5th -- one becomes spiritually whole and " restored " to sanity,

as

> per the 2nd Step. One AA member in the about. alcohol forum recently

posted

> that those who do a good 4th Step (the fearless moral inventory) recover

from

> any mental illness, including schizophrenia, depression, or Obsessive

> Compulsive Disorder. Anything.

>

> These AA feel that taking psychiatric meds merely " suppresses " the

symptoms

> of a spiritual disease, and prevents the steps from working their

" miracle. "

> One is to let one's God, or Higher Power, cure those illnesses, and not

> medicate them, as we once did with alcohol, goes this line of " reasoning. "

So much for the claims that Bill W was sober since the 'thirties,

since he dropped acid in the 'fifties.

Did you point out to the AA member that Bill also complained of

depression -- into the early 'sixties, I believe? How the hell does anybody

know what a " good " fourth step is, if the guy who invented it apparently

took decades to get it right?

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> Oh, man, did he explode! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!! " Wow! Don't question

> the AA Cuppa Cawfee and the AA Cigarette! A Drug Is A Drug Is A

> Drug....unless it's the sacred Coffee and Cigarette...

Sounds like the " Church " of $cientology. They're rabidly anti-drug,

although L. Ron Hubbard's ongoing drug use (which led to the church's

teachings) was " research, " and most members smoke like chimneys.

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

Ill chip in with my two penn'orth about anti depressants . When I was in rehab I was denied Antabuse which I knew had worked for me in the past . I was told it was dangerous . I relapsed while in rehab and again on getting out . I was facing severe financial problems , dificulties at home , with my professional body etc , and I was depressed and anxious . The dread and doom depression of the effects of alcohol had worn off by then . Fortunately I found a Psychaitrist ( completely by chance ) that is a great believer in Antabuse if it works for someone . I have been sober ever since the first tablet 2 years ago and I have been off them for 18 months . However noone would address the mild depression I have had all along . This psychiatrist told me I wasnt depressed and that the professional body would look unfavourably on my recovery if I admitted to that .

So I stuck it out , life has got a lot better , but I have had a rollercoaster with diabetes and my weight , and the last few weeks I have felt miserable and the anxiety has welled up again of a sort like I used to drink to get rid of . I did a lot of research , and eventually a month ago I got someone to get me some Sertraline ( I think thats Zoloft ) . Well it was as if the missing link has been restored to me , Im motivated , it seems to act as an appetite suppressant , my obsessional thinking has damped down , and I have stopped putting on weight , and have started to lose it . Ive now seen a lovely Gp who agreed to put me on this under her care , and I am thrilled to bits with the result . It wont take any problems away but Ill be able to tackle them without the anxiety , which made me run away from them in the past . sorry this is so long . I have never abused prescription drugs , even though I have easy access to them .

[Guest guest]

Ill chip in with my two penn'orth about anti depressants . When I was in rehab I was denied Antabuse which I knew had worked for me in the past . I was told it was dangerous . I relapsed while in rehab and again on getting out . I was facing severe financial problems , dificulties at home , with my professional body etc , and I was depressed and anxious . The dread and doom depression of the effects of alcohol had worn off by then . Fortunately I found a Psychaitrist ( completely by chance ) that is a great believer in Antabuse if it works for someone . I have been sober ever since the first tablet 2 years ago and I have been off them for 18 months . However noone would address the mild depression I have had all along . This psychiatrist told me I wasnt depressed and that the professional body would look unfavourably on my recovery if I admitted to that .

So I stuck it out , life has got a lot better , but I have had a rollercoaster with diabetes and my weight , and the last few weeks I have felt miserable and the anxiety has welled up again of a sort like I used to drink to get rid of . I did a lot of research , and eventually a month ago I got someone to get me some Sertraline ( I think thats Zoloft ) . Well it was as if the missing link has been restored to me , Im motivated , it seems to act as an appetite suppressant , my obsessional thinking has damped down , and I have stopped putting on weight , and have started to lose it . Ive now seen a lovely Gp who agreed to put me on this under her care , and I am thrilled to bits with the result . It wont take any problems away but Ill be able to tackle them without the anxiety , which made me run away from them in the past . sorry this is so long . I have never abused prescription drugs , even though I have easy access to them .

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> I've pointed out the LSD use, and the depression, but the usual response

is

> that Bill was not working his program as well as Bob, who really got it

> right. But this fellow I've been posting to in ab. alcohol, Gerard, is

just

> bizarre. Even the other AA there think he's fanatical and myopic. He

rejects

> the 12 x 12 as being shot through with corruption, and insists that the

> fellowship is a false god & etc. For him, if it ain't in the BB, it ain't

> true. And the BB is inerrant

Note that the final chapter of the BB talks about the " fellowship "

in great detail, encouraging others to spread the word and seek out other

members in other towns when visiting.

I had not read this in a number of years, and cut & pasted it to

another post from a copy of the BB I downloaded. It becomes very clear that

recruiting others into an organized AA structure is the " primary purpose " of

the whole deal.

Sounds a lot like what I remember from Lutheran elementary school --

didn't they call it " the great commission? -- " Go ye therefore and teach all

nations... "

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> I've pointed out the LSD use, and the depression, but the usual response

is

> that Bill was not working his program as well as Bob, who really got it

> right. But this fellow I've been posting to in ab. alcohol, Gerard, is

just

> bizarre. Even the other AA there think he's fanatical and myopic. He

rejects

> the 12 x 12 as being shot through with corruption, and insists that the

> fellowship is a false god & etc. For him, if it ain't in the BB, it ain't

> true. And the BB is inerrant

Note that the final chapter of the BB talks about the " fellowship "

in great detail, encouraging others to spread the word and seek out other

members in other towns when visiting.

I had not read this in a number of years, and cut & pasted it to

another post from a copy of the BB I downloaded. It becomes very clear that

recruiting others into an organized AA structure is the " primary purpose " of

the whole deal.

Sounds a lot like what I remember from Lutheran elementary school --

didn't they call it " the great commission? -- " Go ye therefore and teach all

nations... "

-- Bob

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't say using anti-depressants is 'not sober' (you can be using any

drug, and still be sober, depending on how much you took) But I would say

you are not clean and chemical free if you are using any substance,

including aspirin, coffee, cigarettes, ibuprofen, whatever.

In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to take as much of any substance

they want to take, with the only restriction being that, maybe it be

required of them that they are capable of giving informed adult consent to

the substance they are taking. There would be a whole world of problems

solved in one stroke. for example

1 Legal issues of Controlled Substance offenses all out the window

2 The issue of people trying to make others take responsibility for their

problems-out the window

3 People walking around unhappy and tense because they are denied whatever

substance they feel gives them pleasure-out the window.

The only new problems that it might precipitate would be concerning

keeping children off of drugs, but that is the same as keeping kids off

alcohol-it is a parents responsibility, and some kids are gonna end up

addicted no matter what the parents do.

In my opinion, entire groups of people who want to use chemicals should

not be denied them in the interest of protecting some alleged people who

are incapable of making heir own decisions and living with the

consequences of their own actions. Mike.

Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>

> Question - what's the reasoning people have

> for

> > saying that using anti-depressants is not sober?

>

> Theyre morons who try to practice medicine without a licence.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I wouldn't say using anti-depressants is 'not sober' (you can be using any

drug, and still be sober, depending on how much you took) But I would say

you are not clean and chemical free if you are using any substance,

including aspirin, coffee, cigarettes, ibuprofen, whatever.

In my opinion, anyone should be allowed to take as much of any substance

they want to take, with the only restriction being that, maybe it be

required of them that they are capable of giving informed adult consent to

the substance they are taking. There would be a whole world of problems

solved in one stroke. for example

1 Legal issues of Controlled Substance offenses all out the window

2 The issue of people trying to make others take responsibility for their

problems-out the window

3 People walking around unhappy and tense because they are denied whatever

substance they feel gives them pleasure-out the window.

The only new problems that it might precipitate would be concerning

keeping children off of drugs, but that is the same as keeping kids off

alcohol-it is a parents responsibility, and some kids are gonna end up

addicted no matter what the parents do.

In my opinion, entire groups of people who want to use chemicals should

not be denied them in the interest of protecting some alleged people who

are incapable of making heir own decisions and living with the

consequences of their own actions. Mike.

Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

>

> Question - what's the reasoning people have

> for

> > saying that using anti-depressants is not sober?

>

> Theyre morons who try to practice medicine without a licence.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Pete,

Yes, you're 100% correct. The idea that benzo's and alcohol act identically

is almost as funny as the " alcoholic gene " . If barbiturates act the same as

alcohol, and so do benzo's, aren't barbiturates and benzo's one in the same??

Mona, I hate to tell you, but addiction medicine usually means " 'recovering

addict' practicing medicine. " The term " addiction medicine " implies that

addiction is being treated with medicine (can't be done, even with naltrexone

or anything else,) or they are investigating the state of neurotransmitters

etc. during and after addiction (hardly something that justifies a whole

branch of medicine.) If you had clinical need for Xanax he had no reason to

withhold it from you; the PDR would state with benzo's to take an addiction

into consideration, not let it be a contraindication. Many addiction medicine

doctors are " acting as if " , following the greatest claims of the NCADD and

Dr. Gordis which change every week or so.

[Guest guest]

Pete,

Yes, you're 100% correct. The idea that benzo's and alcohol act identically

is almost as funny as the " alcoholic gene " . If barbiturates act the same as

alcohol, and so do benzo's, aren't barbiturates and benzo's one in the same??

Mona, I hate to tell you, but addiction medicine usually means " 'recovering

addict' practicing medicine. " The term " addiction medicine " implies that

addiction is being treated with medicine (can't be done, even with naltrexone

or anything else,) or they are investigating the state of neurotransmitters

etc. during and after addiction (hardly something that justifies a whole

branch of medicine.) If you had clinical need for Xanax he had no reason to

withhold it from you; the PDR would state with benzo's to take an addiction

into consideration, not let it be a contraindication. Many addiction medicine

doctors are " acting as if " , following the greatest claims of the NCADD and

Dr. Gordis which change every week or so.

[Guest guest]

Pete,

Yes, you're 100% correct. The idea that benzo's and alcohol act identically

is almost as funny as the " alcoholic gene " . If barbiturates act the same as

alcohol, and so do benzo's, aren't barbiturates and benzo's one in the same??

Mona, I hate to tell you, but addiction medicine usually means " 'recovering

addict' practicing medicine. " The term " addiction medicine " implies that

addiction is being treated with medicine (can't be done, even with naltrexone

or anything else,) or they are investigating the state of neurotransmitters

etc. during and after addiction (hardly something that justifies a whole

branch of medicine.) If you had clinical need for Xanax he had no reason to

withhold it from you; the PDR would state with benzo's to take an addiction

into consideration, not let it be a contraindication. Many addiction medicine

doctors are " acting as if " , following the greatest claims of the NCADD and

Dr. Gordis which change every week or so.

[Guest guest]

At 10:25 PM 5/11/01 -0400, wrote:

>But did I ever take the flak! Oh my! There was this one guy who sat me

>down and gave me a lecture about " drugs " . It was for my own good, of

>course, and he really laid it on me. Lecture, lecture, lecture. And all

>the while he was talking he was slugging down the coffee and toking on the

>cigarettes, chain smoking. I listened sincerely to his lecture lecture

>lecture and conversed with him as reasonably as I could. But at the end I

>pointed to his coffee cup and his cigarette and asked him about those drugs

>of nicotine and caffeine.

Were there ever any cookies at the meetings you went to? In Atlanta

there were often cookies, as well as the usual coffee and smoking in the

meeting rooms (where not prohibited by the church or fire marshall, which

was becoming more and more often).

>Oh, man, did he explode! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!! " Wow! Don't question

>the AA Cuppa Cawfee and the AA Cigarette!

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:25 PM 5/11/01 -0400, wrote:

>But did I ever take the flak! Oh my! There was this one guy who sat me

>down and gave me a lecture about " drugs " . It was for my own good, of

>course, and he really laid it on me. Lecture, lecture, lecture. And all

>the while he was talking he was slugging down the coffee and toking on the

>cigarettes, chain smoking. I listened sincerely to his lecture lecture

>lecture and conversed with him as reasonably as I could. But at the end I

>pointed to his coffee cup and his cigarette and asked him about those drugs

>of nicotine and caffeine.

Were there ever any cookies at the meetings you went to? In Atlanta

there were often cookies, as well as the usual coffee and smoking in the

meeting rooms (where not prohibited by the church or fire marshall, which

was becoming more and more often).

>Oh, man, did he explode! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!! " Wow! Don't question

>the AA Cuppa Cawfee and the AA Cigarette!

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 10:25 PM 5/11/01 -0400, wrote:

>But did I ever take the flak! Oh my! There was this one guy who sat me

>down and gave me a lecture about " drugs " . It was for my own good, of

>course, and he really laid it on me. Lecture, lecture, lecture. And all

>the while he was talking he was slugging down the coffee and toking on the

>cigarettes, chain smoking. I listened sincerely to his lecture lecture

>lecture and conversed with him as reasonably as I could. But at the end I

>pointed to his coffee cup and his cigarette and asked him about those drugs

>of nicotine and caffeine.

Were there ever any cookies at the meetings you went to? In Atlanta

there were often cookies, as well as the usual coffee and smoking in the

meeting rooms (where not prohibited by the church or fire marshall, which

was becoming more and more often).

>Oh, man, did he explode! " THAT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!! " Wow! Don't question

>the AA Cuppa Cawfee and the AA Cigarette!

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

If these worthies couldnt "work the program well enough" - what bleedin' chance do the rest of us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth examining?

Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it in your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

If these worthies couldnt "work the program well enough" - what bleedin' chance do the rest of us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth examining?

Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it in your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

If these worthies couldnt "work the program well enough" - what bleedin' chance do the rest of us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth examining?

Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it in your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Mona ... Anti-depressants

> In a message dated 5/12/01 2:46:45 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> watts_pete@... writes:

>

>

> > If these worthies couldnt

> > " work the program well enough " - what bleedin' chance do the rest of

> > us have? Doesnt it rather suggest a different approach might be worth

> > examining?

> >

>

> Stop that stinkin' thinkin', get the cotton out of your mouth and put it

in

> your ears, and remember: It works if you work it.

>

> --Mona--

May you're just too damn smart to get the program, Mona.

Stick with the winners; meeting makers make it.

Above all, Keep Coming Back.

--Bob