Propaganda Disguised as Research

[Guest guest]

<< As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed research .

I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is really

surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as if it is

gospel , frightening really . >>

If I met a physician who told identified himself as, " recovering " , I would

urge him to leave his practice for a while until he finishes his " recovery " !

I remember a few of the drunkalogues I heard at meetings from doctors, a lot

of them talked about stealing painkillers from the formulary at their

hospital, and even more disturbing, operating on patients while high as a

kite, which sometimes got a laugh from the others in the meeting (an

obstetrician in rehab said, " I was very, very sick...I couldn't even do a

delivery without shooting up (morphine) in the bathroom first. " ) This was in

the context of telling of how bad her *own* condition was, while it never

occured to her that she was putting her patients at serious risk. And this is

called " humility " ?

[Guest guest]

<< As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed research .

I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is really

surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as if it is

gospel , frightening really . >>

If I met a physician who told identified himself as, " recovering " , I would

urge him to leave his practice for a while until he finishes his " recovery " !

I remember a few of the drunkalogues I heard at meetings from doctors, a lot

of them talked about stealing painkillers from the formulary at their

hospital, and even more disturbing, operating on patients while high as a

kite, which sometimes got a laugh from the others in the meeting (an

obstetrician in rehab said, " I was very, very sick...I couldn't even do a

delivery without shooting up (morphine) in the bathroom first. " ) This was in

the context of telling of how bad her *own* condition was, while it never

occured to her that she was putting her patients at serious risk. And this is

called " humility " ?

[Guest guest]

<< As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed research .

I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is really

surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as if it is

gospel , frightening really . >>

If I met a physician who told identified himself as, " recovering " , I would

urge him to leave his practice for a while until he finishes his " recovery " !

I remember a few of the drunkalogues I heard at meetings from doctors, a lot

of them talked about stealing painkillers from the formulary at their

hospital, and even more disturbing, operating on patients while high as a

kite, which sometimes got a laugh from the others in the meeting (an

obstetrician in rehab said, " I was very, very sick...I couldn't even do a

delivery without shooting up (morphine) in the bathroom first. " ) This was in

the context of telling of how bad her *own* condition was, while it never

occured to her that she was putting her patients at serious risk. And this is

called " humility " ?

[Guest guest]

What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud scheme) of

some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its incredibly

outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane given to

a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with old-time AA

pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less probability of

succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught helplessness, etc.

The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid " is often

told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when making a

sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud scheme) of

some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its incredibly

outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane given to

a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with old-time AA

pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less probability of

succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught helplessness, etc.

The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid " is often

told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when making a

sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud scheme) of

some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its incredibly

outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane given to

a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with old-time AA

pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less probability of

succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught helplessness, etc.

The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid " is often

told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when making a

sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

Another terribly flawed study purporting to show that AA works. The

flaws should be obvious--no control control, no effrot to distinguish

between the effects of participating in AA and participating in any

support group, etc.

From About.com

Twelve-Step Programs Work

A new report has found that the addition of a twelve-step program for

people in outpatient drug treatment programs doubles their chance of

staying drug-free. According to interviews with 356 outpatients

conducted by University of California at Los Angeles researchers Drs.

Maureen P. Hillhouse and Fiorentine, 48 percent of clients who

completed treatment abstained from drugs during the six-months

following discharge. But the percentage increased to 86 percent for

those who completed the program and maintained weekly participation

in 12-step meetings during and after treatment.

" Even though some aspects of a 12-step program are included in

outpatient drug treatment programs, participation in at least one

outside weekly meeting does make a big difference, " said Hillhouse.

The researchers recommended regular participation in a 12-step

program as a " refresher course " for addicts so that they can

acknowledge loss of control over drug use and accept the need for

lifelong abstinence.

The report was presented at the annual meeting of the American

Society of Addiction Medicine held recently in Los Angeles, Calif.

[Guest guest]

yOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD .

pIOUS CRUELTY IS JUST THE RIGHT TERM TO DESCRIBE HOW hEALTH pROFESSIONALS

TREAT OTHERS!

SANCTIMONIOUS OLD AA GITS ARE THE WORST !

[Guest guest]

yOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD .

pIOUS CRUELTY IS JUST THE RIGHT TERM TO DESCRIBE HOW hEALTH pROFESSIONALS

TREAT OTHERS!

SANCTIMONIOUS OLD AA GITS ARE THE WORST !

[Guest guest]

yOU HIT IT ON THE HEAD .

pIOUS CRUELTY IS JUST THE RIGHT TERM TO DESCRIBE HOW hEALTH pROFESSIONALS

TREAT OTHERS!

SANCTIMONIOUS OLD AA GITS ARE THE WORST !

[Guest guest]

yes the dentists support group claims an 80 % success rate .

I would have thought that with this wonderful success which is better than

anything else in the world that they should be commercially marketing their

methods !

[Guest guest]

yes the dentists support group claims an 80 % success rate .

I would have thought that with this wonderful success which is better than

anything else in the world that they should be commercially marketing their

methods !

[Guest guest]

yes the dentists support group claims an 80 % success rate .

I would have thought that with this wonderful success which is better than

anything else in the world that they should be commercially marketing their

methods !

[Guest guest]

I am acquainted with an anti-AA psychiatrist who is a member of the

ASAM, and he has had to disguise his anti-AA publications so heavily

that many people have taken them as pro-AA. (Why bother, really?)

> The American Society for addiction medicine is heavily into AA I

think .

> As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed

research .

> I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is

really

> surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as

if it is

> gospel , frightening really .

> I think that most doctors dont know how to treat alcoholics except

to

> recommend AA . I was in a facility that treated health professionals

, and

> there was no alternative on offer except AA , and lots of stuff

about the

> 'inner child' !

>

[Guest guest]

I am acquainted with an anti-AA psychiatrist who is a member of the

ASAM, and he has had to disguise his anti-AA publications so heavily

that many people have taken them as pro-AA. (Why bother, really?)

> The American Society for addiction medicine is heavily into AA I

think .

> As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed

research .

> I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is

really

> surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as

if it is

> gospel , frightening really .

> I think that most doctors dont know how to treat alcoholics except

to

> recommend AA . I was in a facility that treated health professionals

, and

> there was no alternative on offer except AA , and lots of stuff

about the

> 'inner child' !

>

[Guest guest]

I am acquainted with an anti-AA psychiatrist who is a member of the

ASAM, and he has had to disguise his anti-AA publications so heavily

that many people have taken them as pro-AA. (Why bother, really?)

> The American Society for addiction medicine is heavily into AA I

think .

> As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed

research .

> I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is

really

> surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as

if it is

> gospel , frightening really .

> I think that most doctors dont know how to treat alcoholics except

to

> recommend AA . I was in a facility that treated health professionals

, and

> there was no alternative on offer except AA , and lots of stuff

about the

> 'inner child' !

>

[Guest guest]

I'd be a lot more worried about health professionals who denied they

had put their patients at risk. I, too, was at a treatment center

that specialized in treating health professionals, and I never heard

any of them (but one) deny that they had put their patients at risk.

Few doctors actually stole drugs, most of them simply prescribed them

for themselves. It was nurses and others who couldn't prescribe who

stole.

The one guy who gave me the willies was the surgeon who got blind

drunk every night and went in at 7 AM the next morning to do surgery.

He didn't see a damn thing wrong with it. He would describe how he

coped with the shakes, not when he was cutting, but when he was

suturing. He seemed almost proud about having devised methods to go

on doing surgery despite his massive hangovers. This is the only

example of true denial I think I have ever seen. (Anybody want to

know his suturing secrets? I still remember them.)

>

> In a message dated 5/7/01 11:49:11 AM, CATSJP1000@a... writes:

>

> << As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed

research .

> I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is

really

> surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as

if it is

> gospel , frightening really . >>

>

> If I met a physician who told identified himself as, " recovering " , I

would

> urge him to leave his practice for a while until he finishes his

" recovery " !

> I remember a few of the drunkalogues I heard at meetings from

doctors, a lot

> of them talked about stealing painkillers from the formulary at

their

> hospital, and even more disturbing, operating on patients while high

as a

> kite, which sometimes got a laugh from the others in the meeting (an

> obstetrician in rehab said, " I was very, very sick...I couldn't even

do a

> delivery without shooting up (morphine) in the bathroom first. " )

This was in

> the context of telling of how bad her *own* condition was, while it

never

> occured to her that she was putting her patients at serious risk.

And this is

> called " humility " ?

[Guest guest]

I'd be a lot more worried about health professionals who denied they

had put their patients at risk. I, too, was at a treatment center

that specialized in treating health professionals, and I never heard

any of them (but one) deny that they had put their patients at risk.

Few doctors actually stole drugs, most of them simply prescribed them

for themselves. It was nurses and others who couldn't prescribe who

stole.

The one guy who gave me the willies was the surgeon who got blind

drunk every night and went in at 7 AM the next morning to do surgery.

He didn't see a damn thing wrong with it. He would describe how he

coped with the shakes, not when he was cutting, but when he was

suturing. He seemed almost proud about having devised methods to go

on doing surgery despite his massive hangovers. This is the only

example of true denial I think I have ever seen. (Anybody want to

know his suturing secrets? I still remember them.)

>

> In a message dated 5/7/01 11:49:11 AM, CATSJP1000@a... writes:

>

> << As doctors they should know better than to promote such flawed

research .

> I am in contact with lots of doctors who are recovering , and it is

really

> surprising to hear some of them take in every word that AA says as

if it is

> gospel , frightening really . >>

>

> If I met a physician who told identified himself as, " recovering " , I

would

> urge him to leave his practice for a while until he finishes his

" recovery " !

> I remember a few of the drunkalogues I heard at meetings from

doctors, a lot

> of them talked about stealing painkillers from the formulary at

their

> hospital, and even more disturbing, operating on patients while high

as a

> kite, which sometimes got a laugh from the others in the meeting (an

> obstetrician in rehab said, " I was very, very sick...I couldn't even

do a

> delivery without shooting up (morphine) in the bathroom first. " )

This was in

> the context of telling of how bad her *own* condition was, while it

never

> occured to her that she was putting her patients at serious risk.

And this is

> called " humility " ?

[Guest guest]

I think almost no one where I was bought into the philosophy. They

knew that when they got out, they would be monitored by their

licensing boards, and frankly, I think that was the main impetus for

them to remain abstinent. The medical and statistical claims that

were made were so outrageous -- I didn't know much about the medical,

but I sure did about the statistical, and so did one dentist who had

been a math teacher prior to going to medical school. No, they just

gritted their teeth, made up their minds they were going to serve

their sentence, and did so.

> What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud

scheme) of

> some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its

incredibly

> outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane

given to

> a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with

old-time AA

> pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less

probability of

> succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

> Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught

helplessness, etc.

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

I think almost no one where I was bought into the philosophy. They

knew that when they got out, they would be monitored by their

licensing boards, and frankly, I think that was the main impetus for

them to remain abstinent. The medical and statistical claims that

were made were so outrageous -- I didn't know much about the medical,

but I sure did about the statistical, and so did one dentist who had

been a math teacher prior to going to medical school. No, they just

gritted their teeth, made up their minds they were going to serve

their sentence, and did so.

> What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud

scheme) of

> some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its

incredibly

> outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane

given to

> a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with

old-time AA

> pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less

probability of

> succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

> Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught

helplessness, etc.

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

I think almost no one where I was bought into the philosophy. They

knew that when they got out, they would be monitored by their

licensing boards, and frankly, I think that was the main impetus for

them to remain abstinent. The medical and statistical claims that

were made were so outrageous -- I didn't know much about the medical,

but I sure did about the statistical, and so did one dentist who had

been a math teacher prior to going to medical school. No, they just

gritted their teeth, made up their minds they were going to serve

their sentence, and did so.

> What always surprises when reading about the " specialty " (fraud

scheme) of

> some " providers " (faith healers) in treating professionals is its

incredibly

> outdated, totalitarian nature...seems odd that this is the one lane

given to

> a very highly educated group of people. It also comes across with

old-time AA

> pious cruelty with the premise that higher intelligence=less

probability of

> succeeding. They " question " too much, can't " keep it simple, " etc.

> Interesting how much that reeks of mind control, taught

helplessness, etc.

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

[Guest guest]

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

> is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

> making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

>

Well put. I'm starting to really see the way it is all set up to be

" untouchable " , fending off all arguments...

" Spiritual not religious "

" If it's not working, you're not working it "

" Rarely have we seen a person fail " ... " There are such unfortunates "

(People so mentally unstable that they can't grasp " this simple

program " ) implying that if you fail you are one of the unfortunates

(eternally questioning your own mind).

It sure does make it hard to attack until you really dig in and take a

hard look and ask " too many " questions.

Thanks all for helping me " dig in " !

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

> is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

> making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

>

Well put. I'm starting to really see the way it is all set up to be

" untouchable " , fending off all arguments...

" Spiritual not religious "

" If it's not working, you're not working it "

" Rarely have we seen a person fail " ... " There are such unfortunates "

(People so mentally unstable that they can't grasp " this simple

program " ) implying that if you fail you are one of the unfortunates

(eternally questioning your own mind).

It sure does make it hard to attack until you really dig in and take a

hard look and ask " too many " questions.

Thanks all for helping me " dig in " !

-Cal

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

> The cliche, " you can be too smart to recover, but never too stupid "

> is often

> told to critics, as if it is helpful to be given that response when

> making a

> sincere effort to unravel twisted logic.

>

Well put. I'm starting to really see the way it is all set up to be

" untouchable " , fending off all arguments...

" Spiritual not religious "

" If it's not working, you're not working it "

" Rarely have we seen a person fail " ... " There are such unfortunates "

(People so mentally unstable that they can't grasp " this simple

program " ) implying that if you fail you are one of the unfortunates

(eternally questioning your own mind).

It sure does make it hard to attack until you really dig in and take a

hard look and ask " too many " questions.

Thanks all for helping me " dig in " !

-Cal

__________________________________________________