<sigh> (was:Addiction Is a Choice)

[Guest guest]

<big sigh>

I went internet surfing last evening. I started out by checking the

Kishline info, and clicking on links. Looking at Stanton Peele,

Schaler, Jack Trimpey and that sort of thing. I felt as if I were watching

a virtual Jerry Springer show. I didn't realize these anti-AA people were

also anti-each other. The savage put-downs, the name-calling, the

out-and-out goofy talk, whacking each other as hard as they whack AA....

I just took a deep breath and shook my head and sighed. What is going on in

the field of " addiction " anyway? After reading the stuff I read yesterday I

don't think I'd want to get involved with *any* sort of treatment program.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

AA is a cult! I no longer want anything to do with those people or any

anti-drink squad. I didn't even realised I signed in here. I was signing

into another group, but made an attempt to sign in here 6 months ago.

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

[Guest guest]

<< It's like, " It's MY way or the HIGHWAY " and very little tolerance for

anyone whose views are different. >>

Hi ,

With no sarcastic reference to the " suggestions only-take what you want and

leave the rest " homilies that are like someone saying, " it is suggested that

you dodge the bullet if you're shot at, but you're free to get hit and quite

probably die " , I shifted my attitude towards a more black-and-white attitude

in my own opinion of AA and felt infinitely better as a result...of course,

black-and-white attitude's (in this case, just condemning the organization)

have a lot of downsides. However, before that I felt much like all the words

used in the Big Book...constitutionally incapable, doomed to death or at best

" dry drunkenness " , etc. when I used to think, " AA just isn't for me, maybe

for some people, not everyone. " I thought back to the subordinate,

patronizing meetings for other " troubled " people (the " special " meetings for

agnostics, atheists, gays, (I hope someone tells them of the vicious material

in MRA/Oxford Group's regarding gays, which makes the Catholic Church look

like a gay-empowerment social service,) etc. So finally, I just said, naa, AA

should just dry up and blow away, by its own admission its almost certainly

doing more harm than good (if they claim 95% of members leave fairly quickly,

how many of those people are harmed in some way, and of the 5%, how many are

reasonably sane, non-abusive (I've heard it said that the 13th step is a

great way to help a newcomer " get humble " , that's putting it mildly, isn't

it?), not offering catastrophic advice (almost all of them give " bad advice, "

by catastrophic I mean, like, telling someone to kill him/herself and

standing by this suggestion...in other words, forgetting their overall

emotional condition (usually bland bland bland,) how many of the 5% were

*not* menacing society? Maybe the problem was that I was in a halfway house

(halfway to where? = ) and didn't need to talk badly of AA, from the moment I

mentioned an " alternative " method-while not resisting the mandated meetings-I

was, well, first helped to " get humble " (I won't elaborate on this as it's a

very upsetting memory to retain,) accused of causing slips among others who

might also think they were " special " , and just generally treated like a

complete piece of filth. So one day, after working things out with my family,

I said, " hey, I'm leaving, nice knowing you, by the way you live a very

pathetic lifestyle and if you would like to break out of it let me know. "

There was no grey area for me, AA sucked, the steps sucked, they were just

plain bad. The fact that there were a few, minute pieces of decent advice

didn't matter, it would be like saying " many people enjoy sex, and rape

involves sex, so rape is almost all bad, but not completely 100% " . And guess

what, everything I have seen (I try to avoid it as much as possible, but

those " Friends of BillW " AOL chatrooms are irresistible, hehe) confirms this,

and I still believe it today...and I think this attitude is what gave me my

personality and capabilities back, taking away the passivity and

submissiveness.

But I can say with confidence, and I guess this is mundane to a degree, the

less involvement you may be coerced into having, or choose to have, with

12-steppers, the less of an issue it is. Subjected to their taunting, I had

to learn assertiveness training, what I would call " indirect "

thought-stopping phrases in response to low-level, insufferable cliches about

my future suffering about which they cared little but would pray for me

anyways, despite the fact that I made it clear that their prayers were

disturbing to me given their repressed animocity) that I suppose are intended

to sound like they have nominal meaning and relevance to the topic, but

zooming in on exactly what they're trying to get across takes a little time

and probably too much thought for groupers (the kind of stuff to be turned

over.)

Well sorry for such a long note but I hope I conveyed the point, that saying

" screw AA " instead of " it doesn't work for me " might be helpful, but who

knows?

Another consideration..although this doesn't apply to me since I'm not an

RET-REBTer nor do I feel bound by using " should's " and " must's " , I actually

would be troubled at the prospect of avoiding " catastrophic " self-talk (no

catastrophe's yet)...if you go to SMART meetings online or " live " , just

another suggestion, don't mention AA, I went to the online board a couple

times (and later read a lot of material, including some interesting stuff on

the infamous Albert Ellis) and for whatever reason (maybe political?) they

don't encourage anti-AA stuff or even AA-neutral stuff (I think I introduced

myself and just said I had left AA and was lectured on how " irrational " it is

to consider one's past...and more importantly if they saw the use of words

like " bad " or " must " or " terrible " , well, that's like showing up at an AA

meeting drunk (only they call it " musterbation " . There I go with the sex-talk

again!!)

Well good night everyone--

Nick

[Guest guest]

<< It's like, " It's MY way or the HIGHWAY " and very little tolerance for

anyone whose views are different. >>

Hi ,

With no sarcastic reference to the " suggestions only-take what you want and

leave the rest " homilies that are like someone saying, " it is suggested that

you dodge the bullet if you're shot at, but you're free to get hit and quite

probably die " , I shifted my attitude towards a more black-and-white attitude

in my own opinion of AA and felt infinitely better as a result...of course,

black-and-white attitude's (in this case, just condemning the organization)

have a lot of downsides. However, before that I felt much like all the words

used in the Big Book...constitutionally incapable, doomed to death or at best

" dry drunkenness " , etc. when I used to think, " AA just isn't for me, maybe

for some people, not everyone. " I thought back to the subordinate,

patronizing meetings for other " troubled " people (the " special " meetings for

agnostics, atheists, gays, (I hope someone tells them of the vicious material

in MRA/Oxford Group's regarding gays, which makes the Catholic Church look

like a gay-empowerment social service,) etc. So finally, I just said, naa, AA

should just dry up and blow away, by its own admission its almost certainly

doing more harm than good (if they claim 95% of members leave fairly quickly,

how many of those people are harmed in some way, and of the 5%, how many are

reasonably sane, non-abusive (I've heard it said that the 13th step is a

great way to help a newcomer " get humble " , that's putting it mildly, isn't

it?), not offering catastrophic advice (almost all of them give " bad advice, "

by catastrophic I mean, like, telling someone to kill him/herself and

standing by this suggestion...in other words, forgetting their overall

emotional condition (usually bland bland bland,) how many of the 5% were

*not* menacing society? Maybe the problem was that I was in a halfway house

(halfway to where? = ) and didn't need to talk badly of AA, from the moment I

mentioned an " alternative " method-while not resisting the mandated meetings-I

was, well, first helped to " get humble " (I won't elaborate on this as it's a

very upsetting memory to retain,) accused of causing slips among others who

might also think they were " special " , and just generally treated like a

complete piece of filth. So one day, after working things out with my family,

I said, " hey, I'm leaving, nice knowing you, by the way you live a very

pathetic lifestyle and if you would like to break out of it let me know. "

There was no grey area for me, AA sucked, the steps sucked, they were just

plain bad. The fact that there were a few, minute pieces of decent advice

didn't matter, it would be like saying " many people enjoy sex, and rape

involves sex, so rape is almost all bad, but not completely 100% " . And guess

what, everything I have seen (I try to avoid it as much as possible, but

those " Friends of BillW " AOL chatrooms are irresistible, hehe) confirms this,

and I still believe it today...and I think this attitude is what gave me my

personality and capabilities back, taking away the passivity and

submissiveness.

But I can say with confidence, and I guess this is mundane to a degree, the

less involvement you may be coerced into having, or choose to have, with

12-steppers, the less of an issue it is. Subjected to their taunting, I had

to learn assertiveness training, what I would call " indirect "

thought-stopping phrases in response to low-level, insufferable cliches about

my future suffering about which they cared little but would pray for me

anyways, despite the fact that I made it clear that their prayers were

disturbing to me given their repressed animocity) that I suppose are intended

to sound like they have nominal meaning and relevance to the topic, but

zooming in on exactly what they're trying to get across takes a little time

and probably too much thought for groupers (the kind of stuff to be turned

over.)

Well sorry for such a long note but I hope I conveyed the point, that saying

" screw AA " instead of " it doesn't work for me " might be helpful, but who

knows?

Another consideration..although this doesn't apply to me since I'm not an

RET-REBTer nor do I feel bound by using " should's " and " must's " , I actually

would be troubled at the prospect of avoiding " catastrophic " self-talk (no

catastrophe's yet)...if you go to SMART meetings online or " live " , just

another suggestion, don't mention AA, I went to the online board a couple

times (and later read a lot of material, including some interesting stuff on

the infamous Albert Ellis) and for whatever reason (maybe political?) they

don't encourage anti-AA stuff or even AA-neutral stuff (I think I introduced

myself and just said I had left AA and was lectured on how " irrational " it is

to consider one's past...and more importantly if they saw the use of words

like " bad " or " must " or " terrible " , well, that's like showing up at an AA

meeting drunk (only they call it " musterbation " . There I go with the sex-talk

again!!)

Well good night everyone--

Nick

[Guest guest]

I know *exactly* what you mean. It is discouraging. One thing I have hated about AA is the way that they claim to be the *only* way to sobriety. Most of the other alternatives turn out to be just as bad. It's like, "It's MY way or the HIGHWAY" and very little tolerance for anyone whose views are different

That's why, after shopping around, I stayed with LifeRing Secular Recovery, which is basically the same as Secular Organizations for Sobriety. The only "dogma" LSR has is the commitment to abstinence -- it explicitly rejects moderation as a goal for its members. Otherwise, we are an eclectic bunch who are free to draw on any program or none; the idea is simply to find what works for us, and share that journey with others.

Myself, I like much of RR and SMART. I cannot abide Steppism, but there are many in LSR who are significantly more accepting of it than those on this list. In fact, I joined 12-Step-free in order to be able to vent my contempt for AA without offending those in LSR who employ some AA dogma as part of their personal recovery program. Still, it is certainly true that we ridicule AA with something approaching wild abandon during many of our online chats.

Anyway, it is unfortunate that Trimpey hates Albert Ellis and Peele, and vice versa. However, people who are possessed of such strong egos that they have the wherewithal to rise up against the "dominant recovery paradigm," are not going to be pussycats with one another.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I know *exactly* what you mean. It is discouraging. One thing I have hated about AA is the way that they claim to be the *only* way to sobriety. Most of the other alternatives turn out to be just as bad. It's like, "It's MY way or the HIGHWAY" and very little tolerance for anyone whose views are different

That's why, after shopping around, I stayed with LifeRing Secular Recovery, which is basically the same as Secular Organizations for Sobriety. The only "dogma" LSR has is the commitment to abstinence -- it explicitly rejects moderation as a goal for its members. Otherwise, we are an eclectic bunch who are free to draw on any program or none; the idea is simply to find what works for us, and share that journey with others.

Myself, I like much of RR and SMART. I cannot abide Steppism, but there are many in LSR who are significantly more accepting of it than those on this list. In fact, I joined 12-Step-free in order to be able to vent my contempt for AA without offending those in LSR who employ some AA dogma as part of their personal recovery program. Still, it is certainly true that we ridicule AA with something approaching wild abandon during many of our online chats.

Anyway, it is unfortunate that Trimpey hates Albert Ellis and Peele, and vice versa. However, people who are possessed of such strong egos that they have the wherewithal to rise up against the "dominant recovery paradigm," are not going to be pussycats with one another.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I know *exactly* what you mean. It is discouraging. One thing I have hated about AA is the way that they claim to be the *only* way to sobriety. Most of the other alternatives turn out to be just as bad. It's like, "It's MY way or the HIGHWAY" and very little tolerance for anyone whose views are different

That's why, after shopping around, I stayed with LifeRing Secular Recovery, which is basically the same as Secular Organizations for Sobriety. The only "dogma" LSR has is the commitment to abstinence -- it explicitly rejects moderation as a goal for its members. Otherwise, we are an eclectic bunch who are free to draw on any program or none; the idea is simply to find what works for us, and share that journey with others.

Myself, I like much of RR and SMART. I cannot abide Steppism, but there are many in LSR who are significantly more accepting of it than those on this list. In fact, I joined 12-Step-free in order to be able to vent my contempt for AA without offending those in LSR who employ some AA dogma as part of their personal recovery program. Still, it is certainly true that we ridicule AA with something approaching wild abandon during many of our online chats.

Anyway, it is unfortunate that Trimpey hates Albert Ellis and Peele, and vice versa. However, people who are possessed of such strong egos that they have the wherewithal to rise up against the "dominant recovery paradigm," are not going to be pussycats with one another.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

>

> In a message dated 5/6/01 8:28:22 PM, ahicks@s... writes:

>

> << It's like, " It's MY way or the HIGHWAY " and very little tolerance

for

> anyone whose views are different. >>

>

> Hi ,

>

> With no sarcastic reference to the " suggestions only-take what you

want and

> leave the rest " homilies that are like someone saying, " it is

suggested that

> you dodge the bullet if you're shot at, but you're free to get hit

and quite

> probably die " , I shifted my attitude towards a more black-and-white

attitude

> in my own opinion of AA and felt infinitely better as a result...of

course,

> black-and-white attitude's (in this case, just condemning the

organization)

> have a lot of downsides. However, before that I felt much like all

the words

> used in the Big Book...constitutionally incapable, doomed to death

or at best

> " dry drunkenness " , etc. when I used to think, " AA just isn't for me,

maybe

> for some people, not everyone. "

Hello Nick,

I agree with you about the negative aspects of AA. AA itself is very

black and white. It has *THE WAY* and anyone who doesn't follow that

way isn't really sober in their view. A view I feel is dead wrong.

And, when I left there I knew there was NO going back.

What I was referring to is all the " Alternatives " (Schaler, Peele,

Trimpey) backbiting and putting each other down. I feel like anyone

who was able to get out of AA's clutches ought to at least be

supportive of someone else who has as well, even if they didn't

achieve it in the same way. To me that was the most amazing thing

about Ken's book of all: Peele and Trimpey both introducing it with

the highest praise in the same book. They were next to each other on

paper for a moment in time anyway!

<snip>

from the

moment I

> mentioned an " alternative " method-while not resisting the mandated

meetings-I

> was, well, first helped to " get humble " (I won't elaborate on this

as it's a

> very upsetting memory to retain,) accused of causing slips among

others who

> might also think they were " special " , and just generally treated

like a

> complete piece of filth.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. Anyone who isn't with 'em is

agin' 'em. This happened to me also and I was very shocked that

people who I had thought of as " friends " didn't take even one little

step of the way with me, even allow me my doubts. If anyone had

validated my feelings in the least little bit, I'd probably still be

there, so it's a good thing they didn't. <HA, hard to shake that

habit of finding the *good* in every damned bad thing that happens!>

<snip>

> Well sorry for such a long note but I hope I conveyed the point,

that saying

> " screw AA " instead of " it doesn't work for me " might be helpful, but

who

> knows?

I never disagreed with this. It is annoying that Trimpey has to call

Peele all those " beast " words and that Schaler, who has some good

points, has to ruin it all with his shrill rhetoric. I just wish that

the alternatives to AA were a little more attractive than this lot.

Well, I haven't read all of Peele's stuff, so will reserve my

judgement on him.

>

> Another consideration..although this doesn't apply to me since I'm

not an

> RET-REBTer nor do I feel bound by using " should's " and " must's " , I

actually

> would be troubled at the prospect of avoiding " catastrophic "

self-talk (no

> catastrophe's yet)...if you go to SMART meetings online or " live " ,

just

> another suggestion, don't mention AA, I went to the online board a

couple

> times (and later read a lot of material, including some interesting

stuff on

> the infamous Albert Ellis) and for whatever reason (maybe

political?) they

> don't encourage anti-AA stuff or even AA-neutral stuff (I think I

introduced

> myself and just said I had left AA and was lectured on how

" irrational " it is

> to consider one's past...and more importantly if they saw the use of

words

> like " bad " or " must " or " terrible " , well, that's like showing up at

an AA

> meeting drunk (only they call it " musterbation " . There I go with the

sex-talk

> again!!)

A curious experience. I have never tried to go online to SMART, but I

did attend a meeting and they were just fine with me talking about it,

although I did not talk about it much. This one guy there told a

funny story. He went to AA as well and he told someone in AA that he

wouldn't drink until Friday. This really concerned the AA who didn't

want him to drink on Friday. Guy 1 says, " Well, I know you AAs like

to take things a day at a time, but I just want to take it in a little

bigger chunks than that, say 3 days at a time. " :-)

Hicks