Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. I have not read this piece, but several of my fellow LifeRing Secular Recovery members have. At our online chat this evening, one of them reported that Valliant cites Harvard Magazine for a statistic to the effect that 50% of people reporting to emergency rooms have an elevated blood alcohol level. This LSR member searched Harvard Magazine and could not find this statistic ANYWHERE in that publication, or any hit for "emergency room." So, he called Grapevine, spoke with the senior editor, and was informed in words to the effect that they don't really know the source for that quote, but that Valliant is from Harvard & etc. In any event, the explanation was less than acceptable. What's up with that? --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. I have not read this piece, but several of my fellow LifeRing Secular Recovery members have. At our online chat this evening, one of them reported that Valliant cites Harvard Magazine for a statistic to the effect that 50% of people reporting to emergency rooms have an elevated blood alcohol level. This LSR member searched Harvard Magazine and could not find this statistic ANYWHERE in that publication, or any hit for "emergency room." So, he called Grapevine, spoke with the senior editor, and was informed in words to the effect that they don't really know the source for that quote, but that Valliant is from Harvard & etc. In any event, the explanation was less than acceptable. What's up with that? --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. I have not read this piece, but several of my fellow LifeRing Secular Recovery members have. At our online chat this evening, one of them reported that Valliant cites Harvard Magazine for a statistic to the effect that 50% of people reporting to emergency rooms have an elevated blood alcohol level. This LSR member searched Harvard Magazine and could not find this statistic ANYWHERE in that publication, or any hit for "emergency room." So, he called Grapevine, spoke with the senior editor, and was informed in words to the effect that they don't really know the source for that quote, but that Valliant is from Harvard & etc. In any event, the explanation was less than acceptable. What's up with that? --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 > Hello everyone, > > Warning: Get out your barf bags. > Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. > > Ken Ragge > > http://www.aagrapevine.org/GVMDInterview.html Two comments: 1. Grapevine: How did you, a nonalcoholic, get to know AA? Vaillant: I was working for an alcohol clinic where it was a condition of employment. I had to go to a meeting a month. Aren't AA meetings closed? unless they are designated as Open Meetings, aren't they restricted to alcoholics? or has that changed since i went last? 2. Vaillant: And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent [who recover without AA] are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's " little " sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough. Does it seem like the first and the second parts of this paragraph contradict one another? azure, who agrees that some have a big S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2001 Report Share Posted May 1, 2001 > Hello everyone, > > Warning: Get out your barf bags. > Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. > > Ken Ragge > > http://www.aagrapevine.org/GVMDInterview.html Two comments: 1. Grapevine: How did you, a nonalcoholic, get to know AA? Vaillant: I was working for an alcohol clinic where it was a condition of employment. I had to go to a meeting a month. Aren't AA meetings closed? unless they are designated as Open Meetings, aren't they restricted to alcoholics? or has that changed since i went last? 2. Vaillant: And I don't think there's anything that the other 60 percent [who recover without AA] are doing that AA needs to learn from, except: " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " If you meet someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher Power for another recovery. You know, there's " little " sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone is doing something without your help, good enough. Does it seem like the first and the second parts of this paragraph contradict one another? azure, who agrees that some have a big S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 At 12:36 AM 5/2/01 -0000, azure@... wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> Warning: Get out your barf bags. >> Here is a little piece by AA board member Vaillant. >> >> Ken Ragge >> >> http://www.aagrapevine.org/GVMDInterview.html > >Two comments: > >1. Grapevine: How did you, a nonalcoholic, get to know AA? > Vaillant: I was working for an alcohol clinic where it was a >condition of employment. I had to go to a meeting a month. > >Aren't AA meetings closed? unless they are designated as Open >Meetings, aren't they restricted to alcoholics? or has that changed >since i went last? Yes, there are " Closed " meetings and " Open " meetings. There was usually little or no difference. Some of the " Open " meetings I went to, especially early Friday evening, were basically family night, where the non-alcoholic wives, usually Al-Anons, were present, and sometimes 'shared'. There were often children present. Where I was some people were a little bit disturbed at all the court-ordered attendees at closed meetings (the ones 'in denial' who didn't want to be there), so the groups in the area actually organized a weekly half-hour 'informational meeting' at the courthouse for them, explaining the difference between open and closed meetings, and giving out a version of the metro meeting list that only listed open meetings. >2. Vaillant: And I don't think there's anything that the >other 60 percent [who recover without AA] are doing that AA needs to >learn from, except: " If it ain't broke, don't fix it. " If you meet >someone who has stayed sober for more than three years and they're >pleased and boasting that they did it without AA, thank your Higher >Power for another recovery. You know, there's " little " sobriety, >being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility >and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. So if someone >is doing something without your help, good enough. > >Does it seem like the first and the second parts of this paragraph >contradict one another? It's certainly a put-down and patronizing to anyone who " got sober without AA " . And where did this 60 percent figure come from? If the AA dogma is to be believed, only one in a million recover without AA, and that one recovered by getting religion. >azure, >who agrees that some have a big S ----- This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley. http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2001 Report Share Posted May 2, 2001 Uhhhhhhh......what happened? Why did I think Vaillant was one of the people who was saying that you don't need AA to get over alcoholism? Was I wrong? Yet somehow, back in the '80's when my partner was looking into alternatives to AA, Vaillant was someone who supported the idea that you didn't need AA. Oh, I don't remember... Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 Thanks for the link Ken. Here's some things I thought noteworthy (I added some emphasis here and there...): ---------------------- [Note the mixed use of words that are definite and not-so-definite.] Vaillant states: What happens in emergency rooms is _actually_ much more dramatic than that. _Probably_ 50 percent of all the people brought into emergency rooms had blood-alcohol levels over .25...his is a _clear_ biochemical _fact_... .... They don't understand that 40 percent of _all_ recovery has _probably_ occurred through Alcoholics Anonymous. ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....take your doctor to open meetings so he or she can see for themselves these well-dressed people in nice suits who look like anybody else and have been in recovery for years. [<sarcasm>I know that if I dressed up for an open, it would prove that I've been in recovery for years...</sarcasm>] ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....half the staff were recovering alcoholics, and they were the first people whom I'd met at Harvard in ten years who knew anything about the disease. [Maybe it's because they're the only ones who've been convinced that it _is_ a disease without any proof...] ---------------------- But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call " substitute dependency " doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses. ....You know, there's " little " sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. [Ok, that first paragraph was at least acceptable, but then he gets a bit off track. Judging non-AA sobriety by the AA standard...and I kinda thought abstinence leads to sobriety...] ---------------------- Grapevine: What are some of the other challenges that AA faces? Vaillant: I think there are two, really. One is to come to some meaningful terms with the individuals who are frightened that AA is a religion. This will involve some work and growth in AA to incorporate its diversity without losing its traditions... [How does " diversity " translate into " not religious " ?] ....The second challenge...is to convey to the world what an extraordinary _organization_ Alcoholics Anonymous is... [Tradition 9: A.A., as such, ought never be _organized_; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.] ----------------------- Vaillant states: And AA, in its effort of _world_unity_ [!], is constantly having to evolve. [This is the scariest part...] -Cal __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 Thanks for the link Ken. Here's some things I thought noteworthy (I added some emphasis here and there...): ---------------------- [Note the mixed use of words that are definite and not-so-definite.] Vaillant states: What happens in emergency rooms is _actually_ much more dramatic than that. _Probably_ 50 percent of all the people brought into emergency rooms had blood-alcohol levels over .25...his is a _clear_ biochemical _fact_... .... They don't understand that 40 percent of _all_ recovery has _probably_ occurred through Alcoholics Anonymous. ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....take your doctor to open meetings so he or she can see for themselves these well-dressed people in nice suits who look like anybody else and have been in recovery for years. [<sarcasm>I know that if I dressed up for an open, it would prove that I've been in recovery for years...</sarcasm>] ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....half the staff were recovering alcoholics, and they were the first people whom I'd met at Harvard in ten years who knew anything about the disease. [Maybe it's because they're the only ones who've been convinced that it _is_ a disease without any proof...] ---------------------- But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call " substitute dependency " doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses. ....You know, there's " little " sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. [Ok, that first paragraph was at least acceptable, but then he gets a bit off track. Judging non-AA sobriety by the AA standard...and I kinda thought abstinence leads to sobriety...] ---------------------- Grapevine: What are some of the other challenges that AA faces? Vaillant: I think there are two, really. One is to come to some meaningful terms with the individuals who are frightened that AA is a religion. This will involve some work and growth in AA to incorporate its diversity without losing its traditions... [How does " diversity " translate into " not religious " ?] ....The second challenge...is to convey to the world what an extraordinary _organization_ Alcoholics Anonymous is... [Tradition 9: A.A., as such, ought never be _organized_; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.] ----------------------- Vaillant states: And AA, in its effort of _world_unity_ [!], is constantly having to evolve. [This is the scariest part...] -Cal __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2001 Report Share Posted May 3, 2001 Thanks for the link Ken. Here's some things I thought noteworthy (I added some emphasis here and there...): ---------------------- [Note the mixed use of words that are definite and not-so-definite.] Vaillant states: What happens in emergency rooms is _actually_ much more dramatic than that. _Probably_ 50 percent of all the people brought into emergency rooms had blood-alcohol levels over .25...his is a _clear_ biochemical _fact_... .... They don't understand that 40 percent of _all_ recovery has _probably_ occurred through Alcoholics Anonymous. ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....take your doctor to open meetings so he or she can see for themselves these well-dressed people in nice suits who look like anybody else and have been in recovery for years. [<sarcasm>I know that if I dressed up for an open, it would prove that I've been in recovery for years...</sarcasm>] ---------------------- Vaillant states: ....half the staff were recovering alcoholics, and they were the first people whom I'd met at Harvard in ten years who knew anything about the disease. [Maybe it's because they're the only ones who've been convinced that it _is_ a disease without any proof...] ---------------------- But it doesn't hurt at the level of GSO for AA to have humility and understand that 60 percent do it without AA. It's also true that most of those 60 percent do it with the AA toolbox: their spirituality doesn't come from AA; their support group doesn't come from AA; and what I call " substitute dependency " doesn't come from AA. But they still use the same ingredients that AA uses. ....You know, there's " little " sobriety, being dry, and there's sobriety with a big S, which includes humility and not thinking that you're the center of the earth. [Ok, that first paragraph was at least acceptable, but then he gets a bit off track. Judging non-AA sobriety by the AA standard...and I kinda thought abstinence leads to sobriety...] ---------------------- Grapevine: What are some of the other challenges that AA faces? Vaillant: I think there are two, really. One is to come to some meaningful terms with the individuals who are frightened that AA is a religion. This will involve some work and growth in AA to incorporate its diversity without losing its traditions... [How does " diversity " translate into " not religious " ?] ....The second challenge...is to convey to the world what an extraordinary _organization_ Alcoholics Anonymous is... [Tradition 9: A.A., as such, ought never be _organized_; but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve.] ----------------------- Vaillant states: And AA, in its effort of _world_unity_ [!], is constantly having to evolve. [This is the scariest part...] -Cal __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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