Guest guest Posted April 21, 2001 Report Share Posted April 21, 2001 Was nicotine. My friend Debbie and I had some cigs and we were trying to smoke in the " rec room " of the apartments she lived in. Lloyd had showed me how to inhale and I showed Debbie. We were 13. We got so high on those! True Menthols I stole from my mom. Yeech! I remember the precise moment that I felt " addicted. " It was about one week later. It is difficult to describe and Rita's earlier post brought it to mind. At first we were oh, so, careful. We hid, we schemed, but inevitably we got sloppier with it. I smoked in my room and I would quick, stick my cig in a Sucrets tin to snuff it out. As if. The smell! My mom figured it out pretty quick. Maybe she noticed that the 10th pack in her carton was gone, or maybe she smelled it. I think it threw her into a quandary. How could she stop me doing something that she did? Well, she didn't even try. I have always wondered about that decision. I felt that what I was doing was wrong, and that she had a right to punish and/or stop me from it, but she didn't and neither did my dad (who didn't smoke and whose reaction I was more concerned about). Soon she was buying them for me and getting me out of trouble at school if I happened to get caught there. Maybe they figured it was my decision to make - but that seems out of character because they definitely made many other decisions that affected me without consulting me. Anyway, I smoked cigarettes for the next 17 years, pack a day, Marlboros or Camels, a Winston phase too. I tried to quit once when I was 27. I lasted one day (and an awful day it was). When I ended up in treatment in 1994 I quit there with the help of the patch. That was *not* the general response in treatment, and in fact my roomate, who had never smoked, began smoking there and in the myriad AA meetings to come. Even my TX counselor tried to dissuade me from it, but I was firm. Nicotine was a drug and I was off " drugs " forever. I did become a non-smoker and that's how I see myself now. Although, occasionally I have one or two. I even bought a pack last year, but didn't want to go further than that with it. Part of it is that I know, and can *recognize* that moment when it slides over into the addiction part of the equasion. It does take practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2001 Report Share Posted April 27, 2001 Hey all, I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using drugs/alcohol changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you will never be able to drink moderately. Anyone know about this and if it is in fact true? >From: ahicks@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: My First Drug >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:30:06 -0000 > >Was nicotine. > >My friend Debbie and I had some cigs and we were trying to smoke in >the " rec room " of the apartments she lived in. Lloyd had showed me >how to inhale and I showed Debbie. We were 13. > >We got so high on those! True Menthols I stole from my mom. Yeech! > >I remember the precise moment that I felt " addicted. " It was about >one week later. It is difficult to describe and Rita's earlier post >brought it to mind. At first we were oh, so, careful. We hid, we >schemed, but inevitably we got sloppier with it. I smoked in my room >and I would quick, stick my cig in a Sucrets tin to snuff it out. As >if. The smell! > >My mom figured it out pretty quick. Maybe she noticed that the 10th >pack in her carton was gone, or maybe she smelled it. > >I think it threw her into a quandary. How could she stop me doing >something that she did? > >Well, she didn't even try. I have always wondered about that >decision. I felt that what I was doing was wrong, and that she had a >right to punish and/or stop me from it, but she didn't and neither >did my dad (who didn't smoke and whose reaction I was more concerned >about). Soon she was buying them for me and getting me out of trouble >at school if I happened to get caught there. Maybe they figured it >was my decision to make - but that seems out of character because they >definitely made many other decisions that affected me without >consulting me. > >Anyway, I smoked cigarettes for the next 17 years, pack a day, >Marlboros or Camels, a Winston phase too. > >I tried to quit once when I was 27. I lasted one day (and an awful >day it was). When I ended up in treatment in 1994 I quit there with >the help of the patch. That was *not* the general response in >treatment, and in fact my roomate, who had never smoked, began smoking >there and in the myriad AA meetings to come. Even my TX counselor >tried to dissuade me from it, but I was firm. Nicotine was a drug and >I was off " drugs " forever. > >I did become a non-smoker and that's how I see myself now. Although, >occasionally I have one or two. I even bought a pack last year, but >didn't want to go further than that with it. Part of it is that I >know, and can *recognize* that moment when it slides over into the >addiction part of the equasion. It does take practice. > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2001 Report Share Posted April 27, 2001 > Hey all, > > I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using drugs/alcohol > changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you > will never be able to drink moderately. Anyone know about this and if it is > in fact true? Hi , I had forgotten all about this. This was strongly emphasized in the treatment center I went to as a reason why lifelong abstinence was the only possible solution to put the " disease " into " remission. " This is a really good question and I'll see what I can find out about it. Hicks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 asks, " I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using drugs/alcohol changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you will never be able to drink moderately. " I don't believe that for a minute! Well, wait a minute. Perhaps I should qualify that. I take that back. *Some* people will never be able to drink safely. I'm thinking of an intelligent and interesting cyber-friend who has come to the realization that he simply cannot drink safely, and that's that. He spent time in AA, and came to the realization that AA is not for him and is not at all compatable with who he wants to be. He believes he cannot drink again, not because of AA propaganda, but because of his own personal experience. Other people can and do drink moderately after having been *serious* drunks and having major problems with alcohol at an earlier time in their lives. Ditto drugs. " It is proven... " Proven by whom? Who proved this and how did they prove it? I've seen the question defined away. " Well, if someone can drink again, then they weren't an alcololic to begin with. " That doesn't convey any useful information to my mind. All that says to me is that we can *define* " alcoholic " as " someone who can't drink safely again " . It says nothing at all about why it is that some people have a life-long problem, while others outgrow the problem and simply move on. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 Good post, nz! I, too, have known people who couldn't drink safely. One older African-American gentleman I used to work with said that he without fail experienced the compulsion to drink to the bottom of the bottle, any bottle, no matter what size. He didn't drink that often, he said, but whenever he did it was always that binge type thing. Eventually he developed some life-threatening conditions, and had to stop drinking entirely. He never got involved with AA, and would have been astonished at the idea of the compulsive drinking _itself_ being a " disease " , or of spending a lifetime " in recovery. " His attitude was, " I did what I had to do, and that's that. " Abstinence is certainly a good option for many, and necessary for some. But it is patently false to claim that heavy drinking automatically produces " permanent changes " that make moderate drinking impossible for a former problem drinker. Research has repeatedly shown that more problem drinkers recover to a moderate-drinking status than to complete abstinence. This is true even when they have been exposed to treatment that advocates complete abstinence. In fact, the Project MATCH results defined " treatment successes " as those who drank *significantly less often, and significantly less on each occasion* following the (absinence-oriented) treatment -- in other words, moderate drinking was an accepted " successful result " of treatment for alcohol dependence, even though this was not at all the goal. The important thing is to know yourself -- if you become aware of your drinking patterns (keeping a " drinking journal " is a good idea) and it is clear that drinking has a compulsive quality for you and moderation attempts are not successful, then an abstinence commitment should be made. In that case, why should it matter if there are " physiological changes " or genetic factors, etc.? -- the important thing is to do what's right for you. ~Rita > asks, " I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using > drugs/alcohol > changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you > will never be able to drink moderately. " > > I don't believe that for a minute! Well, wait a minute. Perhaps I should > qualify that. I take that back. > > *Some* people will never be able to drink safely. I'm thinking of an > intelligent and interesting cyber-friend who has come to the realization > that he simply cannot drink safely, and that's that. He spent time in AA, > and came to the realization that AA is not for him and is not at all > compatable with who he wants to be. He believes he cannot drink again, not > because of AA propaganda, but because of his own personal experience. > > Other people can and do drink moderately after having been *serious* drunks > and having major problems with alcohol at an earlier time in their lives. > Ditto drugs. > > " It is proven... " Proven by whom? Who proved this and how did they prove > it? > > I've seen the question defined away. " Well, if someone can drink again, > then they weren't an alcololic to begin with. " > > That doesn't convey any useful information to my mind. All that says to me > is that we can *define* " alcoholic " as " someone who can't drink safely > again " . It says nothing at all about why it is that some people have a > life-long problem, while others outgrow the problem and simply move on. > > Cheers, > > nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 Good post, nz! I, too, have known people who couldn't drink safely. One older African-American gentleman I used to work with said that he without fail experienced the compulsion to drink to the bottom of the bottle, any bottle, no matter what size. He didn't drink that often, he said, but whenever he did it was always that binge type thing. Eventually he developed some life-threatening conditions, and had to stop drinking entirely. He never got involved with AA, and would have been astonished at the idea of the compulsive drinking _itself_ being a " disease " , or of spending a lifetime " in recovery. " His attitude was, " I did what I had to do, and that's that. " Abstinence is certainly a good option for many, and necessary for some. But it is patently false to claim that heavy drinking automatically produces " permanent changes " that make moderate drinking impossible for a former problem drinker. Research has repeatedly shown that more problem drinkers recover to a moderate-drinking status than to complete abstinence. This is true even when they have been exposed to treatment that advocates complete abstinence. In fact, the Project MATCH results defined " treatment successes " as those who drank *significantly less often, and significantly less on each occasion* following the (absinence-oriented) treatment -- in other words, moderate drinking was an accepted " successful result " of treatment for alcohol dependence, even though this was not at all the goal. The important thing is to know yourself -- if you become aware of your drinking patterns (keeping a " drinking journal " is a good idea) and it is clear that drinking has a compulsive quality for you and moderation attempts are not successful, then an abstinence commitment should be made. In that case, why should it matter if there are " physiological changes " or genetic factors, etc.? -- the important thing is to do what's right for you. ~Rita > asks, " I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using > drugs/alcohol > changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you > will never be able to drink moderately. " > > I don't believe that for a minute! Well, wait a minute. Perhaps I should > qualify that. I take that back. > > *Some* people will never be able to drink safely. I'm thinking of an > intelligent and interesting cyber-friend who has come to the realization > that he simply cannot drink safely, and that's that. He spent time in AA, > and came to the realization that AA is not for him and is not at all > compatable with who he wants to be. He believes he cannot drink again, not > because of AA propaganda, but because of his own personal experience. > > Other people can and do drink moderately after having been *serious* drunks > and having major problems with alcohol at an earlier time in their lives. > Ditto drugs. > > " It is proven... " Proven by whom? Who proved this and how did they prove > it? > > I've seen the question defined away. " Well, if someone can drink again, > then they weren't an alcololic to begin with. " > > That doesn't convey any useful information to my mind. All that says to me > is that we can *define* " alcoholic " as " someone who can't drink safely > again " . It says nothing at all about why it is that some people have a > life-long problem, while others outgrow the problem and simply move on. > > Cheers, > > nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 > Hey all, > > I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using drugs/alcohol > changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you > will never be able to drink moderately. Anyone know about this and if it is > in fact true? As far as I know it's just AA junk science. (no real proof to back it up.) > > > >From: ahicks@s... > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > >To: 12-step-free@y... > >Subject: My First Drug > >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:30:06 -0000 > > > >Was nicotine. > > > >My friend Debbie and I had some cigs and we were trying to smoke in > >the " rec room " of the apartments she lived in. Lloyd had showed me > >how to inhale and I showed Debbie. We were 13. > > > >We got so high on those! True Menthols I stole from my mom. Yeech! > > > >I remember the precise moment that I felt " addicted. " It was about > >one week later. It is difficult to describe and Rita's earlier post > >brought it to mind. At first we were oh, so, careful. We hid, we > >schemed, but inevitably we got sloppier with it. I smoked in my room > >and I would quick, stick my cig in a Sucrets tin to snuff it out. As > >if. The smell! > > > >My mom figured it out pretty quick. Maybe she noticed that the 10th > >pack in her carton was gone, or maybe she smelled it. > > > >I think it threw her into a quandary. How could she stop me doing > >something that she did? > > > >Well, she didn't even try. I have always wondered about that > >decision. I felt that what I was doing was wrong, and that she had a > >right to punish and/or stop me from it, but she didn't and neither > >did my dad (who didn't smoke and whose reaction I was more concerned > >about). Soon she was buying them for me and getting me out of trouble > >at school if I happened to get caught there. Maybe they figured it > >was my decision to make - but that seems out of character because they > >definitely made many other decisions that affected me without > >consulting me. > > > >Anyway, I smoked cigarettes for the next 17 years, pack a day, > >Marlboros or Camels, a Winston phase too. > > > >I tried to quit once when I was 27. I lasted one day (and an awful > >day it was). When I ended up in treatment in 1994 I quit there with > >the help of the patch. That was *not* the general response in > >treatment, and in fact my roomate, who had never smoked, began smoking > >there and in the myriad AA meetings to come. Even my TX counselor > >tried to dissuade me from it, but I was firm. Nicotine was a drug and > >I was off " drugs " forever. > > > >I did become a non-smoker and that's how I see myself now. Although, > >occasionally I have one or two. I even bought a pack last year, but > >didn't want to go further than that with it. Part of it is that I > >know, and can *recognize* that moment when it slides over into the > >addiction part of the equasion. It does take practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 > Hey all, > > I'm curious I have been told that it is proven that using drugs/alcohol > changes body physiology forever and that is the reason once that happens you > will never be able to drink moderately. Anyone know about this and if it is > in fact true? As far as I know it's just AA junk science. (no real proof to back it up.) > > > >From: ahicks@s... > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > >To: 12-step-free@y... > >Subject: My First Drug > >Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2001 07:30:06 -0000 > > > >Was nicotine. > > > >My friend Debbie and I had some cigs and we were trying to smoke in > >the " rec room " of the apartments she lived in. Lloyd had showed me > >how to inhale and I showed Debbie. We were 13. > > > >We got so high on those! True Menthols I stole from my mom. Yeech! > > > >I remember the precise moment that I felt " addicted. " It was about > >one week later. It is difficult to describe and Rita's earlier post > >brought it to mind. At first we were oh, so, careful. We hid, we > >schemed, but inevitably we got sloppier with it. I smoked in my room > >and I would quick, stick my cig in a Sucrets tin to snuff it out. As > >if. The smell! > > > >My mom figured it out pretty quick. Maybe she noticed that the 10th > >pack in her carton was gone, or maybe she smelled it. > > > >I think it threw her into a quandary. How could she stop me doing > >something that she did? > > > >Well, she didn't even try. I have always wondered about that > >decision. I felt that what I was doing was wrong, and that she had a > >right to punish and/or stop me from it, but she didn't and neither > >did my dad (who didn't smoke and whose reaction I was more concerned > >about). Soon she was buying them for me and getting me out of trouble > >at school if I happened to get caught there. Maybe they figured it > >was my decision to make - but that seems out of character because they > >definitely made many other decisions that affected me without > >consulting me. > > > >Anyway, I smoked cigarettes for the next 17 years, pack a day, > >Marlboros or Camels, a Winston phase too. > > > >I tried to quit once when I was 27. I lasted one day (and an awful > >day it was). When I ended up in treatment in 1994 I quit there with > >the help of the patch. That was *not* the general response in > >treatment, and in fact my roomate, who had never smoked, began smoking > >there and in the myriad AA meetings to come. Even my TX counselor > >tried to dissuade me from it, but I was firm. Nicotine was a drug and > >I was off " drugs " forever. > > > >I did become a non-smoker and that's how I see myself now. Although, > >occasionally I have one or two. I even bought a pack last year, but > >didn't want to go further than that with it. Part of it is that I > >know, and can *recognize* that moment when it slides over into the > >addiction part of the equasion. It does take practice. > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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