Re: Getting Off Prozac

April 23, 2001

I'm not real sure which thread is which any more, they all seem to be

dealing with about the same thing. I agree with Pete -- and also with

those who say the word " addiction " has become largely meaningless.

Yet if the public views certain drugs (such as morphine) as drugs of

abuse, it will be needlessly fearful of such drugs.

Someone remarked quite recently that a person who takes painkillers

for pain is indeed " addicted, " but we shouldn't worry about whether

they are or are not, because of the great benefit of pain relief. I

agree that pain relief is absolutely crucial and that pain should be

aggressively treated. The person who posted that may have been

responding to my noting that the medical licensing board here

distinguishes between " physical dependence " and " addiction. " I agree

too that that is a distinction without a difference. However, I can

testify from personal experience that when I was on some very

heavy-duty meds for about six weeks to manage post-surgical pain I

went off them and over to some otc painkiller without having the

slightest desire to go on taking the " addictive " drug and without any

physical withdrawal. So it is indeed possible to take " addictive "

drugs without becoming even physically dependent, which is defined, if

I remember correctly, in terms of craving and withdrawal. (This

sounds slightly off, perhaps Pete or another professional can tell us

what the DSM says.)

I'd like to point out that when a person compensates for improperly

managed physical pain, perhaps by acquiring a limp, that can

actually cause further physical damage, for example, muscle atrophy.

This is one of the reasons it's so insane not to manage physical pain

properly. I think the same for psychoactive medications -- I think

mental or emotional suffering can do further mental and emotional

damage if not properly managed. I would not liken antidepressants to

crutches, but perhaps rather to physical therapy. No, that's not

right either. Speaking for myself, and I am sure the OCD poster feels

the same way, antidepressants clear away the cobwebs so that I can

take advantage of therapy, just as pain meds would allow me to fully

take advantage of physical therapy.

Additionally -- not everyone here seems to take into account the

interplay between mind and body that influences both mental and

physical pain. People with chronic pain (unmanaged) can become

depressed, and I believe the reverse is true as well -- people with

chronic unmanaged depression can become prey to physical ailments or

accidents. This is only one example of how Stanton Peele's conception

of " expectations, " or " set and setting " illuminate the notion of

addiction, and how a particular drug will affect any one of us. I

have a firm, deep-down belief that I will never, nor could I be,

addicted to pain medications, or even street drugs. This, no doubt

enabled me to go through six weeks of narcotic ingestion without any

effects but the expeccted one of pain relief. Contrariwise, this

mindset also no doubt enabled me to once go through surgery involving

a two inch incision on the outside of my breast to remove a tumor that

was so close to the center of my sternum that it was very difficult to

capture on mammogram (and I was lucky it was found at all, since it

wasn't palpable) without any pain or pain medication whatsoever.

These are the kinds of experiences that I have had that make me think

that trying to differentiate " harmful behaviors, " " bad habits, " and

" addictions " is meaningless, and that " will power " is really not

something that enters into this equation.

> > It is my understanding that the mind instructs the brain. If i

enter

> a

> > situation fraught with danger, for example, my mind instructs my

> brain to

> > produce chemicals such as adrenaline to allow the physical

response

> to be

> > shaped in a certain fashion. If I then take chemicals to

> counter-act, in my

> > body, the instructions of the brain i am thus not dealing with my

> very

> > correct and natural response to that situation.

> > If my situation is as such that I am getting very depressed by

> events in my

> > life and i use any form of chemicals to suppress the symptoms of

> that

> > depression then I am in danger of ignoring the very real life

> circumstances

> > which are producing that state of mind in myself. By changing the

> > circumstances in my life over a period of time I then alter the

> > instructions sent to my brain by my mind. I accomplish this by

> deciding what

> > is acceptable and what is not in my life, and working on changing

> what i

> > can. I think it was Addler who said, " Neurosis and psychosis are

> modes of

> > behaviour for human beings who have lost courage. "

> > Utilising medications may be, in my mind, a valuable form of

> crisis

> > intervention. However I compare it to having a broken leg.

Crutches

> are

> > useful while the damage is fresh but if i continue to use the

> crutches for

> > too long then the muscles in my leg will not develop and my

lameness

> will

> > continue albeit in a different form.

April 24, 2001

Pete,

I am amazed at the circularity of your arguments and how all are based

on assumtions made by bad science and taken on as your own. No attempt was

made to address the basic premise of my argument that the mind instructs the

brain and all flows from there. A negative response from one person in a

given situation may indeed be seen to be " innapropriate " to others but might

be perfectly " appropriate " for that person given his life experiences. To

lump all together under a given evaluation of what you deem to be

appropriate ansd innapropriate is do to an injustice to the variety of

experience that many people have.

If you look back at what i actually said, I stated that

" Utilising medications MAY be, in my mind, a valuable form of crisis

intervention. "

I specifically used the word " MAY " to indicate that i have an open mind on

that area, hard as this may be, and not to indicate that it is the ONLY form

of crisis intervention. A crutch can be verbal and behavioural as well as

chemical in nature.

Your appreciation of the semantics involved as regards Addlers statement

that " Neurosis and psychosis are modes of behaviour for human beings who

have lost courage " are sadly lacking. I have no intention of making

" troubled people feel ashamed of themselves " as you insist. Why should i

when I strongly identify with that postition being a " psychiatric survivor

myself? I only state what i strongly identify with. If I tell a child that

they may drown in the sea they might become temporarily upset but that

warning may actually save the child from going into the sea and actually

drowning and therefore the short term discomfort acts as an aid to long term

benefit, or survival in this case. If people understand that it might be the

lack of courage in certain situations that is the cause of much of their

ongoing distress, then it gives them the options of trying a way forward

that does not involve drugs of any kind, especially if drugs (alcohol in

this case) underlies the crisis of " spirit "

Neurochemistry, indeed, plays a large part in " neuroses " as you state but,

once more, we are back to the chicken and the egg argument that you so

skillfully avoided in your response to my last posting. It is still my

contention that the mind instructs the brain as to what chemical levels

exist in the body and the brain and it is by confronting those issues that

long term relief and a life worth living will be found. I know it was a

combination of emotional iliteracy, a lack of social and communication

skills and a deep seated fear of most things in life which led me forcefully

into alcoholism and the clutches of the psychiatric profession who subdued

me for years via medications which have long since been proved as dangerous

though many are still in use.

I re-iterate what Lynn Segal said< " I am not a prisoner of my own

biolgy. " There are, indeed, differences in the make up of the individual as

regards chemistry and genetics but these are so small in miost cases as to

make their effect negligible.

>From: watts_pete@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Getting Off Prozac

>Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2001 20:47:04 -0000

>

>,

>

>The argument below is one often used and it is fallacious, since it

>assumes that a depressive or anxious response is the intrinsically

>correct one to the person's circumstances, and they often arent. A

>massive fever is a response of the body to an infection - and can

>kill. You may need to pack a fevered patient in ice to get their

>temperature down to save their life.

>

>Depression and anbxiety become problems precisely *when* they are

>largely inappropriate responses to life circumstances.

>

>Your " crutch " analogy is one that I often use myself. However, I note

>that its only here that you have started to use it. It is of course

>an analogy *supportive* of the use of meds, yet support for meds isnt

>exactly the impression youve been giving me. Of course they shouldnt

>be continued when no longer necessary, but that isnt an argument for

>not using them *at all*, but that was the only message I seemed to be

>hearing from you up to this point. Also, a completely crippled leg

>never heals, the crutch is always necessary - and sometimes it's like

>that with the brain too. Unfortunately, it just isnt as easy to tell.

>

>The out of context quote for Adler I think is awful, just another

>thing to make troubled ppl feel yet more ashamed of themselves.

>Psychosis is almost always associated with an extremely severe

>disruption of neurochemistry, nothing to do with " courage " at all.

>Many psychotic ppl show great courage. Neurochemistry also plays a

>big role in " neuroses " too. I actually think Adler's ideas have a lot

>to be said for them - but not this one.

>

>P.

>

> > It is my understanding that the mind instructs the brain. If i enter

>a

> > situation fraught with danger, for example, my mind instructs my

>brain to

> > produce chemicals such as adrenaline to allow the physical response

>to be

> > shaped in a certain fashion. If I then take chemicals to

>counter-act, in my

> > body, the instructions of the brain i am thus not dealing with my

>very

> > correct and natural response to that situation.

> > If my situation is as such that I am getting very depressed by

>events in my

> > life and i use any form of chemicals to suppress the symptoms of

>that

> > depression then I am in danger of ignoring the very real life

>circumstances

> > which are producing that state of mind in myself. By changing the

> > circumstances in my life over a period of time I then alter the

> > instructions sent to my brain by my mind. I accomplish this by

>deciding what

> > is acceptable and what is not in my life, and working on changing

>what i

> > can. I think it was Addler who said, " Neurosis and psychosis are

>modes of

> > behaviour for human beings who have lost courage. "

> > Utilising medications may be, in my mind, a valuable form of

>crisis

> > intervention. However I compare it to having a broken leg. Crutches

>are

> > useful while the damage is fresh but if i continue to use the

>crutches for

> > too long then the muscles in my leg will not develop and my lameness

>will

> > continue albeit in a different form.

>

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April 24, 2001

I find that I often tend to fulfil what expectations i have of myself. If I

expect myself to be incompetent then incompetent I will be. By raising and

creating realsitic expectations of myself which I can fulfill, my self

esteem and confidence increases. It took a long time and many

years/experiences to reduce me to the wreck i was and it has taken just as

many to produce the person I am now. In a society which demands instant

results many will see the path i chose as not being the one for them and I

accept this. If they choose psycho-active medications to help them through

this life and are happy and content in that approach i see no need to

condemn nor judge them just as i do not condemn those who may choose to use

some of the elicit substances on a daily or intermittent basis. The model

which I use for understanding is based in experiences which i can understand

and not in scientific theory which I have to take on faith unless I spend

years gaining the necessary qualifications and adopt the somewhat blinkered

view that accompanies specialisation. I am just happy to debate so an all

round view can be gained and choices made available to those who still

struggle in mental health areas. Expectations of being happy at all times

are unrealistic for myself and i find that emerging from the more difficult

periods often brings me insights which I would not have had had i chosen to

medicate my way through those times.

>From: MonaHolland@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Getting Off Prozac

>Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 09:56:15 EDT

>

>In a message dated 4/24/01 4:04:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

>Adhakan@... writes:

>

> >

> > Neurochemistry, indeed, plays a large part in " neuroses " as you state

> > but,

> > once more, we are back to the chicken and the egg argument that you so

> > skillfully avoided in your response to my last posting. It is still my

> > contention that the mind instructs the brain as to what chemical levels

> > exist in the body and the brain and it is by confronting those issues

>that

> > long term relief and a life worth living will be found. I know it was a

> > combination of emotional iliteracy, a lack of social and communication

> > skills and a deep seated fear of most things in life which led me

> > forcefully

> > into alcoholism and the clutches of the psychiatric profession who

> > subdued

> > me for years via medications which have long since been proved as

>dangerous

> > though many are still in use.

> >

>

>I've been following this discussion, trying to absorb the various fact

>claims

>in light of both my own experience and the information I have gleaned in

>reading about it. From what I have been given to understand, a rapid

>series

>of profound traumas altered the neurochemistry of my limbic system, and my

>amygdala (sp?) began triggering the anxiety response far too easily and

>sending adrenaline through my body in response to relatively minor

>occurrences and at an almost constant level. That explanation " feels "

>right

>to me as it describes what I was feeling quite well.

>

>Medication intervened to break this cycle and restore me to an emotional

>even

>keel so that I can take joy from life again. Previously, I was in a state

>of

>adhenoia (sp?), meaning I could not experience joy.

>

>Most definitely, alcohol greatly contributed to this anxiety and

>depression,

>altho I started the absurd level of destructive drinking in response to the

>unmanageable anxiety. Eventually, I spent two years in the clutches of

>obsessive suicidal ideation.

>

>I am now blessedly and gratefully free from that, all as a consequnce of

>getting sober and medication. Further, I would be as alarmed at the

>thought

>of losing my meds as I would be by someone attempting to force alcohol down

>my threat -- I end up profoundly unstable in either of those events.

>

>That's my take. I don't give a rat's @ss if my meds are a " crutch. " I'm

>alive and experiencing contentment again, and don't much care how that came

>about, as long as it did.

>

>--Mona--

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April 24, 2001