Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 I have to agree with Bjorn (I don't know how to make that cool " o " with the slash through it). I think shame is a pretty universal emotion. I certainly don't believe it is a feeling reserved for addicts. Like guilt, shame, or avoidance of shame, is part of what keeps cultures together. We probably wouldn't have religion without it, and it is quite possible that no one would ever get potty trained. Perhaps parents, teachers, etc. do not deal with shame as they should, but I don't believe it is because they are unaware of it. I think it would be safe to say that very few people have managed to live their entire lives without experiencing some degree of dissatisfaction with themselves. Just look at the ever present ritual of the New Year's Resolution. True, many people make resolutions that are substance related, such as " I'm going to cut down on my drinking " or " I'm going to stop eating entire gallons of ice cream in one sitting " , but people also wish to improve areas of their lives like paying more attention to the kids or becoming more socially proactive. I think the point Fingarette is trying to make is that the difficulty addicts face in trying to change their lives and the shame they sometimes feel in failing to do so is not all that different from the experiences of other human beings trying to better themselves. Perhaps it is more pronounced or more obvious in the addict. But what addicts experience in regards to the repetition of undesired behaviors and the difficulty in changing those behaviors is not something mysterious and wholy " other " than normal human experience. In that light, and to further define the " we are all addicts " concept, one could say, for example, that my brother is " addicted " to worrying all the time. His experiences in trying to change that pattern of living are not all that different from my experience of trying to control my substance abuse. The point is that, in describing the human experience as a whole, " addiction " is somewhat redundant. > > > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing. > > > Keep me posted. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 I have to agree with Bjorn (I don't know how to make that cool " o " with the slash through it). I think shame is a pretty universal emotion. I certainly don't believe it is a feeling reserved for addicts. Like guilt, shame, or avoidance of shame, is part of what keeps cultures together. We probably wouldn't have religion without it, and it is quite possible that no one would ever get potty trained. Perhaps parents, teachers, etc. do not deal with shame as they should, but I don't believe it is because they are unaware of it. I think it would be safe to say that very few people have managed to live their entire lives without experiencing some degree of dissatisfaction with themselves. Just look at the ever present ritual of the New Year's Resolution. True, many people make resolutions that are substance related, such as " I'm going to cut down on my drinking " or " I'm going to stop eating entire gallons of ice cream in one sitting " , but people also wish to improve areas of their lives like paying more attention to the kids or becoming more socially proactive. I think the point Fingarette is trying to make is that the difficulty addicts face in trying to change their lives and the shame they sometimes feel in failing to do so is not all that different from the experiences of other human beings trying to better themselves. Perhaps it is more pronounced or more obvious in the addict. But what addicts experience in regards to the repetition of undesired behaviors and the difficulty in changing those behaviors is not something mysterious and wholy " other " than normal human experience. In that light, and to further define the " we are all addicts " concept, one could say, for example, that my brother is " addicted " to worrying all the time. His experiences in trying to change that pattern of living are not all that different from my experience of trying to control my substance abuse. The point is that, in describing the human experience as a whole, " addiction " is somewhat redundant. > > > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing. > > > Keep me posted. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 Certainly I agree that certain addicts who are physically dependent need medical assistance to de-tox. Beyond these initial physical concerns, though, I think the challenge to change one's life is basically the same as in those considered to be non-addicted. I also believe that most substance abusers are not physically dependent, at least not to the degree that medical attention is required. And, while there are certainly some addicts who live life so destructively it can appear as if they are trying to do themselves in as quickly as possible, I do not believe that this is an accurate portrayal of the majority of abusers. Most people who abuse one substance or another do damage to their bodies slowly and over a long period of time. I think it is quite comparable, actually, to someone who goes through life under an inordinate amount of stress and anxiety. Over a period of time, worry can really wear the body down. Joan > In a message dated 4/15/01 11:33:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jmere@e... > writes: > > > > I think the point Fingarette is trying to make is that the > > difficulty addicts face in trying to change their lives and the shame > > they sometimes feel in failing to do so is not all that different > > from the experiences of other human beings trying to better > > themselves. Perhaps it is more pronounced or more obvious in the > > addict. But what addicts experience in regards to the repetition of > > undesired behaviors and the difficulty in changing those behaviors is > > not something mysterious and wholy " other " than normal human > > > > Very well said. I do, however, think there is something unique to the > alcoholic/addict who becomes physically dependent and literally cannot stop > without frightening mental and physical consequences, and whose mentation > goes down the toilet until they have abstained for long enough to detoxify. > Chemically dependent people can kill themselves with their bad behavior, > which isn't true for, say, worry warts (at last nearly as egregiously and > preponderantly so). > > Perhaps these are mere particulars in an otherwise universal problem. As > the Roman playwright Terrence said: " Nothing that is human is foreign to me. " > > --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 15, 2001 Report Share Posted April 15, 2001 > -> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing. > -> > Keep me posted. > - > - > - > - > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2001 Report Share Posted April 17, 2001 > > > > How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: > " Meeting > > Makers Make it? " > > > LOL! I've just *gotta* have one!!!!!! I know an AA who claims Dubya has been seen at meetings. He was seen chatting with Elvis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2001 Report Share Posted April 17, 2001 > > > > How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: > " Meeting > > Makers Make it? " > > > LOL! I've just *gotta* have one!!!!!! I know an AA who claims Dubya has been seen at meetings. He was seen chatting with Elvis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2001 Report Share Posted April 17, 2001 > > > > How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: > " Meeting > > Makers Make it? " > > > LOL! I've just *gotta* have one!!!!!! I know an AA who claims Dubya has been seen at meetings. He was seen chatting with Elvis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2001 Report Share Posted April 17, 2001 > > > > > > How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: > > " Meeting > > > Makers Make it? " > > > > > > LOL! I've just *gotta* have one!!!!!! > > I know an AA who claims Dubya has been seen at meetings. He was seen > chatting with Elvis. he, he! That's why I liked it so well. I've a feeling Dubya wouldn't be caught dead in a meeting. Guy doesn't strike me as a " meeting maker, " but seems to have done quite well for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 17, 2001 Report Share Posted April 17, 2001 > > > > > > How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: > > " Meeting > > > Makers Make it? " > > > > > > LOL! I've just *gotta* have one!!!!!! > > I know an AA who claims Dubya has been seen at meetings. He was seen > chatting with Elvis. he, he! That's why I liked it so well. I've a feeling Dubya wouldn't be caught dead in a meeting. Guy doesn't strike me as a " meeting maker, " but seems to have done quite well for himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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