Re: news on how it works

[Guest guest]

news on how it " works "

> I once read a paradody of how it " works " and the " steps'.

>

> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?

>

> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cult

meetings!

http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htm

Over-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program

1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives had

become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state of

non-seriousness.

3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense of

humor and learn to " lovingly and wholeheartedly " laugh at ourselves.

4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantly

doing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongs

were often in our heads.

6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybody

else's and possibly better than most.

7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.

8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'd

forgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.

9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet of

the planet's surface.

10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves at

times, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're not

responsible for everything.

12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try to

carry this message to other over-serious people and to practice these

principles in all of our affairs.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htm

AA for the 21st Century

The Twelve Steps

1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all on

alcohol.

2. Decided to give authority one more chance.

3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.

4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.

5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the drama

and glamor of our drinking story.

6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.

7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy them

with our guilt and remorse.

9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now become

spiritually superior to them.

10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out of

the consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (as

we would want God to be).

12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,

we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to not

drink and see what happens.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htm

How You Work IT

Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

practiced AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capable

but unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. They

have the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk of

suffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemically

dependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to grasp

and develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirs

for the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percent

guaranteed -- right now!

If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,

they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the idea

of a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, " It's

too simple. How can it work? " It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone can

quit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,

and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.

But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.

With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear of

abstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from the

start and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we are

dealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.

It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken and

consumed.

We stood at a turning point and decided, " There is but one who can quit an

addiction, and it is I. " Let us find ourselves now! We asked for no

protection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,

lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way to

quitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.

A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will is

yours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measures

avail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, " I will never

drink again! "

This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some have

exclaimed, " What a Plan, I can't say never! " But that was only the Addictive

Voice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is a

favorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,

permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.

Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

quit.

(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

well.

(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we are

completely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope for

better lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes a

condition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

news on how it " works "

> I once read a paradody of how it " works " and the " steps'.

>

> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?

>

> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cult

meetings!

http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htm

Over-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program

1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives had

become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state of

non-seriousness.

3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense of

humor and learn to " lovingly and wholeheartedly " laugh at ourselves.

4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantly

doing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongs

were often in our heads.

6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybody

else's and possibly better than most.

7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.

8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'd

forgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.

9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet of

the planet's surface.

10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves at

times, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're not

responsible for everything.

12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try to

carry this message to other over-serious people and to practice these

principles in all of our affairs.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htm

AA for the 21st Century

The Twelve Steps

1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all on

alcohol.

2. Decided to give authority one more chance.

3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.

4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.

5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the drama

and glamor of our drinking story.

6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.

7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy them

with our guilt and remorse.

9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now become

spiritually superior to them.

10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out of

the consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (as

we would want God to be).

12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,

we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to not

drink and see what happens.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htm

How You Work IT

Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

practiced AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capable

but unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. They

have the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk of

suffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemically

dependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to grasp

and develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirs

for the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percent

guaranteed -- right now!

If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,

they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the idea

of a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, " It's

too simple. How can it work? " It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone can

quit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,

and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.

But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.

With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear of

abstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from the

start and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we are

dealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.

It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken and

consumed.

We stood at a turning point and decided, " There is but one who can quit an

addiction, and it is I. " Let us find ourselves now! We asked for no

protection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,

lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way to

quitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.

A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will is

yours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measures

avail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, " I will never

drink again! "

This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some have

exclaimed, " What a Plan, I can't say never! " But that was only the Addictive

Voice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is a

favorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,

permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.

Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

quit.

(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

well.

(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we are

completely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope for

better lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes a

condition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

news on how it " works "

> I once read a paradody of how it " works " and the " steps'.

>

> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?

>

> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cult

meetings!

http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htm

Over-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program

1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives had

become unmanageable.

2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state of

non-seriousness.

3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense of

humor and learn to " lovingly and wholeheartedly " laugh at ourselves.

4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantly

doing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongs

were often in our heads.

6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybody

else's and possibly better than most.

7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.

8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'd

forgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.

9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet of

the planet's surface.

10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves at

times, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're not

responsible for everything.

12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try to

carry this message to other over-serious people and to practice these

principles in all of our affairs.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htm

AA for the 21st Century

The Twelve Steps

1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all on

alcohol.

2. Decided to give authority one more chance.

3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.

4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.

5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the drama

and glamor of our drinking story.

6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.

7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy them

with our guilt and remorse.

9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now become

spiritually superior to them.

10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out of

the consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (as

we would want God to be).

12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,

we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to not

drink and see what happens.

http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htm

How You Work IT

Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

practiced AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capable

but unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. They

have the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk of

suffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemically

dependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to grasp

and develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirs

for the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percent

guaranteed -- right now!

If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,

they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the idea

of a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, " It's

too simple. How can it work? " It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone can

quit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,

and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.

But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.

With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear of

abstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from the

start and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we are

dealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.

It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken and

consumed.

We stood at a turning point and decided, " There is but one who can quit an

addiction, and it is I. " Let us find ourselves now! We asked for no

protection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,

lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way to

quitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.

A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will is

yours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measures

avail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, " I will never

drink again! "

This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some have

exclaimed, " What a Plan, I can't say never! " But that was only the Addictive

Voice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is a

favorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,

permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.

Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

quit.

(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

well.

(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we are

completely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope for

better lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes a

condition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

>

> How You Work IT

> Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

> practiced AVRT. ...

>

> Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

>

> (1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

> There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

> nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

> quit.

>

> (2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

> well.

>

> (3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

> refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

>

--------------------

This is one of Trimpey's better ones -- especially #3 above -- pretty much

sums up why many people of religious faith, and not just atheists, find Steppism

inappropriate and offensive. I just wish Trimpey would open his eyes to the

possibility that AVRT and the rest of RR's outlook can be applied to

moderation/harm reduction approaches as well.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

>

> How You Work IT

> Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

> practiced AVRT. ...

>

> Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

>

> (1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

> There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

> nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

> quit.

>

> (2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

> well.

>

> (3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

> refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

>

--------------------

This is one of Trimpey's better ones -- especially #3 above -- pretty much

sums up why many people of religious faith, and not just atheists, find Steppism

inappropriate and offensive. I just wish Trimpey would open his eyes to the

possibility that AVRT and the rest of RR's outlook can be applied to

moderation/harm reduction approaches as well.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

>

> How You Work IT

> Never have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistently

> practiced AVRT. ...

>

> Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:

>

> (1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.

> There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to human

> nature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help to

> quit.

>

> (2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quite

> well.

>

> (3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone would

> refuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.

>

--------------------

This is one of Trimpey's better ones -- especially #3 above -- pretty much

sums up why many people of religious faith, and not just atheists, find Steppism

inappropriate and offensive. I just wish Trimpey would open his eyes to the

possibility that AVRT and the rest of RR's outlook can be applied to

moderation/harm reduction approaches as well.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob!

Great mail. It really summed up many of my own recognitions.

Today I read in a Danish newspaper that 'if art was decent, it was not art'.

But you're obviously not only an artist, but an intellectual as well.

I really enjoyed it. Your 12 step can help shortcut understanding for those interested.

Besides, I never felt comfortable with Jack Trimpey rhetoric either.

Thanks again.

Bjørn

news on how it "works"> I once read a paradody of how it "works" and the "steps'.>> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?>> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cultmeetings!http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htmOver-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives hadbecome unmanageable.2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state ofnon-seriousness.3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense ofhumor and learn to "lovingly and wholeheartedly" laugh at ourselves.4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantlydoing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongswere often in our heads.6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybodyelse's and possibly better than most.7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'dforgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet ofthe planet's surface.10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves attimes, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're notresponsible for everything.12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try tocarry this message to other over-serious people and to practice theseprinciples in all of our affairs.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htmAA for the 21st CenturyThe Twelve Steps1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all onalcohol.2. Decided to give authority one more chance.3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the dramaand glamor of our drinking story.6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy themwith our guilt and remorse.9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now becomespiritually superior to them.10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out ofthe consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (aswe would want God to be).12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to notdrink and see what happens.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htmHow You Work ITNever have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistentlypracticed AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capablebut unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. Theyhave the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk ofsuffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemicallydependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to graspand develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirsfor the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percentguaranteed -- right now!If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the ideaof a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, "It'stoo simple. How can it work?" It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone canquit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear ofabstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from thestart and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we aredealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken andconsumed.We stood at a turning point and decided, "There is but one who can quit anaddiction, and it is I." Let us find ourselves now! We asked for noprotection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way toquitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will isyours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measuresavail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, "I will neverdrink again!"This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some haveexclaimed, "What a Plan, I can't say never!" But that was only the AddictiveVoice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is afavorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to humannature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help toquit.(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quitewell.(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone wouldrefuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we arecompletely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope forbetter lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes acondition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob!

Great mail. It really summed up many of my own recognitions.

Today I read in a Danish newspaper that 'if art was decent, it was not art'.

But you're obviously not only an artist, but an intellectual as well.

I really enjoyed it. Your 12 step can help shortcut understanding for those interested.

Besides, I never felt comfortable with Jack Trimpey rhetoric either.

Thanks again.

Bjørn

news on how it "works"> I once read a paradody of how it "works" and the "steps'.>> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?>> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cultmeetings!http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htmOver-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives hadbecome unmanageable.2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state ofnon-seriousness.3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense ofhumor and learn to "lovingly and wholeheartedly" laugh at ourselves.4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantlydoing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongswere often in our heads.6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybodyelse's and possibly better than most.7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'dforgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet ofthe planet's surface.10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves attimes, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're notresponsible for everything.12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try tocarry this message to other over-serious people and to practice theseprinciples in all of our affairs.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htmAA for the 21st CenturyThe Twelve Steps1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all onalcohol.2. Decided to give authority one more chance.3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the dramaand glamor of our drinking story.6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy themwith our guilt and remorse.9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now becomespiritually superior to them.10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out ofthe consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (aswe would want God to be).12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to notdrink and see what happens.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htmHow You Work ITNever have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistentlypracticed AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capablebut unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. Theyhave the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk ofsuffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemicallydependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to graspand develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirsfor the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percentguaranteed -- right now!If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the ideaof a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, "It'stoo simple. How can it work?" It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone canquit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear ofabstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from thestart and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we aredealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken andconsumed.We stood at a turning point and decided, "There is but one who can quit anaddiction, and it is I." Let us find ourselves now! We asked for noprotection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way toquitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will isyours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measuresavail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, "I will neverdrink again!"This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some haveexclaimed, "What a Plan, I can't say never!" But that was only the AddictiveVoice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is afavorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to humannature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help toquit.(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quitewell.(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone wouldrefuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we arecompletely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope forbetter lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes acondition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bob!

Great mail. It really summed up many of my own recognitions.

Today I read in a Danish newspaper that 'if art was decent, it was not art'.

But you're obviously not only an artist, but an intellectual as well.

I really enjoyed it. Your 12 step can help shortcut understanding for those interested.

Besides, I never felt comfortable with Jack Trimpey rhetoric either.

Thanks again.

Bjørn

news on how it "works"> I once read a paradody of how it "works" and the "steps'.>> I was wondering if anyone out there has a copy of this to put online?>> And any info about anti-AA tshirts? i'd wear one to one of their cultmeetings!http://members.spree.com/lifestyles/neldryk/humor/parody12/over.htmOver-Serious Anonymous 12 Step Program1. We admitted that we were powerless over seriousness - that our lives hadbecome unmanageable.2. Came to believe that only by lightening up could we achieve a state ofnon-seriousness.3. Made a decision to turn our constant self-criticism over to our sense ofhumor and learn to "lovingly and wholeheartedly" laugh at ourselves.4. Decided to give ourselves a break once in a while, instead of constantlydoing searching and fearless moral inventories of ourselves.5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being that our wrongswere often in our heads.6. Were entirely ready to accept that our characters were as good as anybodyelse's and possibly better than most.7. Quit harping on our shortcomings.8. Made of list of all persons we thought we had harmed and saw that they'dforgotten all the crap we'd blown out of proportion.9. Quit making amends for breathing air and taking up a few square feet ofthe planet's surface.10. Resigned ourselves to the fact we were going to criticize ourselves attimes, but would try to stick to our guns when we knew we were right.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to calm down and realize we're notresponsible for everything.12. Having experienced immense relief from these steps, we would try tocarry this message to other over-serious people and to practice theseprinciples in all of our affairs.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/12steps.htmAA for the 21st CenturyThe Twelve Steps1. Admitted that we were complete failures and decided to blame it all onalcohol.2. Decided to give authority one more chance.3. Agreed to let God (as we would like God to be) take care of us.4. Took a moral inventory of everybody else.5. Tried to impress God, ourselves, and another human being with the dramaand glamor of our drinking story.6. Became entirely ready to have God on our side.7. Humbly asked Him/Her to make us perfect.8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to annoy themwith our guilt and remorse.9. Visited each of those people and proved to them that we had now becomespiritually superior to them.10. Whenever we were wrong, promptly admitted it so that we could get out ofthe consequences of our mistakes as quickly as possible.11. Sought through prayer and meditation to gain complete control of God (aswe would want God to be).12. Having failed to have a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,we tried to convince everyone that we had, and resolved to continue to notdrink and see what happens.http://www.positiveatheism.org/rw/howworks.htmHow You Work ITNever have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly and consistentlypracticed AVRT. Those who do not recover are people who are entirely capablebut unwilling to make a personal commitment to permanent abstinence. Theyhave the personal freedom to continue their dependency with the risk ofsuffering and death. They are not unfortunates, they are chemicallydependent by choice! Their choice is made. The natural capability to graspand develop a manner of living which allows freedom and longevity is theirsfor the taking. Their chances of recovery are one-hundred percentguaranteed -- right now!If they decide they want a better life and are willing to never drink again,they will recognize an inner voice which balks. All of us balked at the ideaof a Big Plan; if we hadn't, we wouldn't have been addicted! Some say, "It'stoo simple. How can it work?" It doesn't work. Nothing works. But anyone canquit right now for good! Some of us looked for an easier, less direct way,and thought we could depend on others or ask God to do what is ours to do.But we could not find a less direct way than to quit once and for all time.With all the earnestness at our command, we challenged the fear ofabstinence and found it was a needless fear. We stayed who we were from thestart and held on to values that gave our lives meaning. Remember, we aredealing only with alcohol. It is neither cunning nor baffling nor powerful.It is an inanimate substance which sits on a shelf until it is taken andconsumed.We stood at a turning point and decided, "There is but one who can quit anaddiction, and it is I." Let us find ourselves now! We asked for noprotection against our innate desire for pleasure, and turned to planned,lifetime abstinence with complete abandon. We took no steps on the way toquitting, because any step is only an evasion of immediate responsibility.A lifetime in the problem promises a lifetime of dependency but free will isyours and mine. Half-hearted commitments don't make it, but full measuresavail us everything. We stand at the turning point and say, "I will neverdrink again!"This is the book we read, The Final Fix by Jack Trimpey. Some haveexclaimed, "What a Plan, I can't say never!" But that was only the AddictiveVoice. We come to recognize that to doubt our ability to abstain is afavorite tactic of the Addictive Voice. Anyone can maintain perfect,permanent abstinence with AVRT, if that is what they decide to do.Our description of addiction makes clear these pertinent facts:(1) We are not, nor were we ever, alcoholics, for no such creature exists.There is no barrier to abstinence except the lustful, animal side to humannature. We do not have a disease, nor do any of us need treatment or help toquit.(2) When sober, we are competent human beings who can manage our lives quitewell.(3) God, however we may understand Him, could not object that someone wouldrefuse alcohol or drugs without paying Him tribute.Being convinced that we have had our last drink or our final fix, we arecompletely recovered and are free to return to normal lives! We hope forbetter lives and certain fulfillments, but we do not make those hopes acondition of our enduring commitment to abstinence from alcohol and drugs.

[Guest guest]

My friend used to have this shirt with pictures of famous women from

Marilyn Monroe to Margaret Thatcher. The shirt said, " We are all

prostitutes. " I thought it would be great to have a " We are all

addicts " shirt with images of famous people throughout history who

are commonly remembered for their contributions to society, but who

are less widely remebered for their abuse of one substance or

another. Like Freud, for example. A clever jab at the disease

concept.

Joan

> Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.

> Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Well, we could do one of two things with that. Either we could let

the steppers wear the shirts while we point and laugh, or we could

ask Fingarette (is he alive?) to let us put this great quote on the

back. I think I got this off of Peele's site. I'm not sure...

" [the]difficulty in changing the large pattern [of alcoholism] is not

an 'impairment' of self-control; it is a normal feature of anyone's

way of life.... This is no mystery or puzzle, no rarity, no pathology

or disease needing a special explanation. "

I want one in black

Joan

> > > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.

> > > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bjørn

I don't fully understand what you have written yet. But I don't agree that 'everyone knows about shame'. In fact I think most people and many therapists, parents, teachers etc still have no idea about shame and that is a big part of the problem. I believe it is the most painful feeling, unbearable and so is usually denied, repressed - or medicated over with an addiction.

I need to restate that I have never been to an AA meeting although I have completely stopped drinking for three years now with no particular difficulty - it just fell away.

I have been to quite a few other 12 step meetings but never really bought the progam. I have done a lot of group and one to one therapy.

-----Original Message-----From: Bjørn Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 11:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: news on how it "works"

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bjørn

I don't fully understand what you have written yet. But I don't agree that 'everyone knows about shame'. In fact I think most people and many therapists, parents, teachers etc still have no idea about shame and that is a big part of the problem. I believe it is the most painful feeling, unbearable and so is usually denied, repressed - or medicated over with an addiction.

I need to restate that I have never been to an AA meeting although I have completely stopped drinking for three years now with no particular difficulty - it just fell away.

I have been to quite a few other 12 step meetings but never really bought the progam. I have done a lot of group and one to one therapy.

-----Original Message-----From: Bjørn Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 11:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: news on how it "works"

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Bjørn

I don't fully understand what you have written yet. But I don't agree that 'everyone knows about shame'. In fact I think most people and many therapists, parents, teachers etc still have no idea about shame and that is a big part of the problem. I believe it is the most painful feeling, unbearable and so is usually denied, repressed - or medicated over with an addiction.

I need to restate that I have never been to an AA meeting although I have completely stopped drinking for three years now with no particular difficulty - it just fell away.

I have been to quite a few other 12 step meetings but never really bought the progam. I have done a lot of group and one to one therapy.

-----Original Message-----From: Bjørn Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 11:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: news on how it "works"

Hi .

Your description is of the function of 'addiction' is IMO very accurate.

But the next step is to understand that there is no addiction without shame, and therefore AA is living up to the standards of a machiavellian lie.

The only element that is crucial in every 'addiction' is removed from it's core. Therefore, of course, it is impossible to understand (unless you are an addict yourself, they say).

The ultimate cover up.

But it's not true. Every experienced and thinking human being know about shame, and what it does with him. Therefore there are no mysteries hidden in addiction. Actually it's obvious, but there are no money, power or deception in the obvious.

Paradoxically this means that AA are both very near to the 'truth' about alcoholism and at the same time so far away they could possible be.

Regards

Bjørn

P.S.

Shame is in my opinion related to herd psychology, and is prehuman.

I think the main distinction between animal herd instincts and human herd instincts is religion. We have invented religion as a tool to curb the instincts.

Therefore there is no accident religion plays a big role in 'treatment' of shame related behavior.

(I would for example guess you don't treat 'panic attacks' with 12 step treatment?)

Even your bright president seems to have got the point.

Maybe he thinks: "If one religion is very good, than two religions must be twice as good." ?

B.

RE: Re: news on how it "works"

My understanding of the 'disease concept' is that it is just a verbal device to help people separate from their shame. There is a faulty (= harmful) process running in me - ie an addiction -- (which can be done something about through a natural healing process).

Whereas shame tells you you ARE a mistake you are a faulty person unworthy of a place in the human race.

Of course over time - like all religions and folk wisdom - this basic simple messge seems to have got lost in the political, commercial and bureaucratic noise and exploitation.

And secondly the definition of addiction is a harmful process.

If it is not harmful - it is not an addiction.

-----Original Message-----From: stuart323@... Sent: Sunday, 15 April 2001 3:50 AMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: news on how it "works"Joan,I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they would bet the joke/message.> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.> > Keep me posted.

[Guest guest]

How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: " Meeting

Makers Make it? "

- Re: news on how it " works "

-

-

-Joan,

-

-I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they

-would bet the joke/message.

-

-

-

-

-> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.

-> > Keep me posted.

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[Guest guest]

How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: " Meeting

Makers Make it? "

- Re: news on how it " works "

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-Joan,

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-I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they

-would bet the joke/message.

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-> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.

-> > Keep me posted.

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[Guest guest]

How about one with a pic of B Jr on it with the caption: " Meeting

Makers Make it? "

- Re: news on how it " works "

-

-

-Joan,

-

-I bet you could sell lots of these to steppers. I don't think they

-would bet the joke/message.

-

-

-

-

-> > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in thing.

-> > Keep me posted.

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-

-

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[Guest guest]

I think the point Fingarette is trying to make is that the difficulty addicts face in trying to change their lives and the shame they sometimes feel in failing to do so is not all that different from the experiences of other human beings trying to better themselves. Perhaps it is more pronounced or more obvious in the addict. But what addicts experience in regards to the repetition of undesired behaviors and the difficulty in changing those behaviors is not something mysterious and wholy "other" than normal human experience.

Very well said. I do, however, think there is something unique to the alcoholic/addict who becomes physically dependent and literally cannot stop without frightening mental and physical consequences, and whose mentation goes down the toilet until they have abstained for long enough to detoxify.

Chemically dependent people can kill themselves with their bad behavior, which isn't true for, say, worry warts (at last nearly as egregiously and preponderantly so).

Perhaps these are mere particulars in an otherwise universal problem. As the Roman playwright Terrence said: "Nothing that is human is foreign to me."

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I have to agree with Bjorn (I don't know how to make that cool " o "

with the slash through it). I think shame is a pretty universal

emotion. I certainly don't believe it is a feeling reserved for

addicts. Like guilt, shame, or avoidance of shame, is part of what

keeps cultures together. We probably wouldn't have religion without

it, and it is quite possible that no one would ever get potty

trained. Perhaps parents, teachers, etc. do not deal with shame as

they should, but I don't believe it is because they are unaware of

it. I think it would be safe to say that very few people have managed

to live their entire lives without experiencing some degree of

dissatisfaction with themselves. Just look at the ever present ritual

of the New Year's Resolution. True, many people make resolutions that

are substance related, such as " I'm going to cut down on my drinking "

or " I'm going to stop eating entire gallons of ice cream in one

sitting " , but people also wish to improve areas of their lives like

paying more attention to the kids or becoming more socially

proactive. I think the point Fingarette is trying to make is that the

difficulty addicts face in trying to change their lives and the shame

they sometimes feel in failing to do so is not all that different

from the experiences of other human beings trying to better

themselves. Perhaps it is more pronounced or more obvious in the

addict. But what addicts experience in regards to the repetition of

undesired behaviors and the difficulty in changing those behaviors is

not something mysterious and wholy " other " than normal human

experience. In that light, and to further define the " we are all

addicts " concept, one could say, for example, that my brother

is " addicted " to worrying all the time. His experiences in trying to

change that pattern of living are not all that different from my

experience of trying to control my substance abuse. The point is

that, in describing the human experience as a whole, " addiction " is

somewhat redundant.

> > > Good idea. Anti AA T-shirts. Cool. They'd be the next in

thing.

> > > Keep me posted.

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