Re: CAG-support groups suck

[Guest guest]

Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we can all

lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading therapy

approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can target it

gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being molested

after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like " they don't

love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there was the

small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults who were all

" convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing " took place

on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age, you've just

survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our hands is it

worth trying to delve into vague memories?

[Guest guest]

Ken,

as the intro. to your book says-you're a master of writing. A lot of stuff to

think about!

The only thing that I should clarify is the issue of parental abuse. In a

therapy setting, the three options are:

1. completely ignore it, and assume it has no impact on your current " self "

whatsoever (most of the cognitive behavioral-based approaches do something

like this)

2. client complains and therapist feels compelled to *validate* the whining,

and, to a degree, convince the client that he/she had a dysfunctional

childhood. The benefit, in the therapist's eyes, might be that a link is

discovered, and the client may suddenly brighten up when they find a source

that made her the victim she seemingly wants to be. The client will lose any

doubt that she might just be a whiner, rather than a victim, and will

eventually move on. A common theme that I've seen used in 12-step rehab is

death of a loved one as abandonment. If a 48 year old man, after told he was

a sick, suffering, diseased alcoholic, was then asked if he feels

" abandoned " , I would guess he would reply " yes " , especially since the " yes "

answer is really the correct one in the context of the question. Therapy time

will then be spent venting at the deceased for no substantive reason, or

continuing to affirm the identity of " abandoned " (on top of all the

disgusting AA labels)

3. Ask questions, and when obvious patterns of abuse come out, affirm this.

This, of course, is the only ethical way for the therapist to conduct the

sessions, but I don't think the current population seeking psychotherapy

(i.e. more middle-class and well-functioning) are likely to reach adulthood

and then suddenly " discover " that they were abused. Hopefully the silence

gets broken as early as possible.

The only other thing I wanted to mention was that CODA purportedly has a

pretty large membership (and, as you said, 98% of us, according to Bradshaw,

should be members, but I guess we're in denial) but among the non-substance

addiction based step groups, I've never seen anyone speak out against their

own bad experience in it-in fact, compared to OA, I don't think CODA is even

that well known-but maybe that's my own misperception.

For a unique group like that, one might expect different social problems (for

example, maybe very little 13th stepping, if any, but other prominent

dysfunctional behavior.)

And I just remembered that I could probably fit an " alcoholic " diagnosis on

my mom, and my dad was morphine-dependent prior to his death due to cancer,

so I also have the unique disorder of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics). I

forget to whom this is attributed and which book it came out of, one of the

few which are critical of AA...just take out the " OA " and you've got the

problem-they are ADULT CHILDREN! They will not show any emotional maturity.

Now I thought that was funny. Anyways I guess I'll stop typing because I

doubt anyone read this far down.......

My name's Nick and I am gratefully recovering from a few of these:

DSM-IV Code 296.87 (Atypical bipolar, primarily depressive periods),

Alcoholic, Addicted to: food, water, air at this time. Displays

chemical-seeking behavior, such as breathing. Prior addictions which are

still diseases he suffers from: alcohol, all benzodiazepine variations,

heroin, cocaine, marijuana. Denies any of the above disorders since he hasn't

used chemicals in a long time, however he does not have any chips or

keychains to prove this. Admits he has the disease of messiness but he has

not " hit bottom " , which is the day that messiness will land him in the

gutter, and he will surrender to loose papers. Codepdent. ACOA. Affective

disorder: SAD (Seasonal Affective, the disease of getting a little down in

the wintertime,) and he very well could have ADHD, since there's no firm

evidence that it exists.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

as the intro. to your book says-you're a master of writing. A lot of stuff to

think about!

The only thing that I should clarify is the issue of parental abuse. In a

therapy setting, the three options are:

1. completely ignore it, and assume it has no impact on your current " self "

whatsoever (most of the cognitive behavioral-based approaches do something

like this)

2. client complains and therapist feels compelled to *validate* the whining,

and, to a degree, convince the client that he/she had a dysfunctional

childhood. The benefit, in the therapist's eyes, might be that a link is

discovered, and the client may suddenly brighten up when they find a source

that made her the victim she seemingly wants to be. The client will lose any

doubt that she might just be a whiner, rather than a victim, and will

eventually move on. A common theme that I've seen used in 12-step rehab is

death of a loved one as abandonment. If a 48 year old man, after told he was

a sick, suffering, diseased alcoholic, was then asked if he feels

" abandoned " , I would guess he would reply " yes " , especially since the " yes "

answer is really the correct one in the context of the question. Therapy time

will then be spent venting at the deceased for no substantive reason, or

continuing to affirm the identity of " abandoned " (on top of all the

disgusting AA labels)

3. Ask questions, and when obvious patterns of abuse come out, affirm this.

This, of course, is the only ethical way for the therapist to conduct the

sessions, but I don't think the current population seeking psychotherapy

(i.e. more middle-class and well-functioning) are likely to reach adulthood

and then suddenly " discover " that they were abused. Hopefully the silence

gets broken as early as possible.

The only other thing I wanted to mention was that CODA purportedly has a

pretty large membership (and, as you said, 98% of us, according to Bradshaw,

should be members, but I guess we're in denial) but among the non-substance

addiction based step groups, I've never seen anyone speak out against their

own bad experience in it-in fact, compared to OA, I don't think CODA is even

that well known-but maybe that's my own misperception.

For a unique group like that, one might expect different social problems (for

example, maybe very little 13th stepping, if any, but other prominent

dysfunctional behavior.)

And I just remembered that I could probably fit an " alcoholic " diagnosis on

my mom, and my dad was morphine-dependent prior to his death due to cancer,

so I also have the unique disorder of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics). I

forget to whom this is attributed and which book it came out of, one of the

few which are critical of AA...just take out the " OA " and you've got the

problem-they are ADULT CHILDREN! They will not show any emotional maturity.

Now I thought that was funny. Anyways I guess I'll stop typing because I

doubt anyone read this far down.......

My name's Nick and I am gratefully recovering from a few of these:

DSM-IV Code 296.87 (Atypical bipolar, primarily depressive periods),

Alcoholic, Addicted to: food, water, air at this time. Displays

chemical-seeking behavior, such as breathing. Prior addictions which are

still diseases he suffers from: alcohol, all benzodiazepine variations,

heroin, cocaine, marijuana. Denies any of the above disorders since he hasn't

used chemicals in a long time, however he does not have any chips or

keychains to prove this. Admits he has the disease of messiness but he has

not " hit bottom " , which is the day that messiness will land him in the

gutter, and he will surrender to loose papers. Codepdent. ACOA. Affective

disorder: SAD (Seasonal Affective, the disease of getting a little down in

the wintertime,) and he very well could have ADHD, since there's no firm

evidence that it exists.

[Guest guest]

Ken,

as the intro. to your book says-you're a master of writing. A lot of stuff to

think about!

The only thing that I should clarify is the issue of parental abuse. In a

therapy setting, the three options are:

1. completely ignore it, and assume it has no impact on your current " self "

whatsoever (most of the cognitive behavioral-based approaches do something

like this)

2. client complains and therapist feels compelled to *validate* the whining,

and, to a degree, convince the client that he/she had a dysfunctional

childhood. The benefit, in the therapist's eyes, might be that a link is

discovered, and the client may suddenly brighten up when they find a source

that made her the victim she seemingly wants to be. The client will lose any

doubt that she might just be a whiner, rather than a victim, and will

eventually move on. A common theme that I've seen used in 12-step rehab is

death of a loved one as abandonment. If a 48 year old man, after told he was

a sick, suffering, diseased alcoholic, was then asked if he feels

" abandoned " , I would guess he would reply " yes " , especially since the " yes "

answer is really the correct one in the context of the question. Therapy time

will then be spent venting at the deceased for no substantive reason, or

continuing to affirm the identity of " abandoned " (on top of all the

disgusting AA labels)

3. Ask questions, and when obvious patterns of abuse come out, affirm this.

This, of course, is the only ethical way for the therapist to conduct the

sessions, but I don't think the current population seeking psychotherapy

(i.e. more middle-class and well-functioning) are likely to reach adulthood

and then suddenly " discover " that they were abused. Hopefully the silence

gets broken as early as possible.

The only other thing I wanted to mention was that CODA purportedly has a

pretty large membership (and, as you said, 98% of us, according to Bradshaw,

should be members, but I guess we're in denial) but among the non-substance

addiction based step groups, I've never seen anyone speak out against their

own bad experience in it-in fact, compared to OA, I don't think CODA is even

that well known-but maybe that's my own misperception.

For a unique group like that, one might expect different social problems (for

example, maybe very little 13th stepping, if any, but other prominent

dysfunctional behavior.)

And I just remembered that I could probably fit an " alcoholic " diagnosis on

my mom, and my dad was morphine-dependent prior to his death due to cancer,

so I also have the unique disorder of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics). I

forget to whom this is attributed and which book it came out of, one of the

few which are critical of AA...just take out the " OA " and you've got the

problem-they are ADULT CHILDREN! They will not show any emotional maturity.

Now I thought that was funny. Anyways I guess I'll stop typing because I

doubt anyone read this far down.......

My name's Nick and I am gratefully recovering from a few of these:

DSM-IV Code 296.87 (Atypical bipolar, primarily depressive periods),

Alcoholic, Addicted to: food, water, air at this time. Displays

chemical-seeking behavior, such as breathing. Prior addictions which are

still diseases he suffers from: alcohol, all benzodiazepine variations,

heroin, cocaine, marijuana. Denies any of the above disorders since he hasn't

used chemicals in a long time, however he does not have any chips or

keychains to prove this. Admits he has the disease of messiness but he has

not " hit bottom " , which is the day that messiness will land him in the

gutter, and he will surrender to loose papers. Codepdent. ACOA. Affective

disorder: SAD (Seasonal Affective, the disease of getting a little down in

the wintertime,) and he very well could have ADHD, since there's no firm

evidence that it exists.

[Guest guest]

NKCT1980@... wrote:

> Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we can all

> lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading therapy

> approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can target it

> gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being molested

> after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like " they don't

> love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there was the

> small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults who were all

> " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing " took place

> on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age, you've just

> survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our hands is it

> worth trying to delve into vague memories?

>

NKCT1980,

Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I heard (from

Bradshaw

himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at destabilizing

people and switching their allegiance from themselves to Codependents Anonymous.

As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues, I can't

imagine

that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example, therapists are

fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make excuses for even

the

very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist maintain some

degree

of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for her to feel

angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a 10-year-old

girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other family members

simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it and thereby " get

over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years later, she is

going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to understand

" they

were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on adult authority

and

her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that must be " shut

out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most certainly be

investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to go, not from

an

expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a therapist, but from

one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life itself, which

has

been described as " the best therapy. "

Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that then it is

possible

to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_ assumed in a

limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption. Distracting

oneself

from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from being able to

reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out " What is wrong

with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How am I

_appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been suicidal since

he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What happened when you

were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he could allow

himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't want to direct

it

toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort of grieving

process and be fine.

I've seen this happen with other people.

Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if they don't know

history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children (one

older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and less

caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters played a

bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best she

knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but he is

stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight, by

the way.)

>

> > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we

can all

> > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading

therapy

> > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can

target it

> > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being

molested

> > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like

" they don't

> > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there

was the

> > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults

who were all

> > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing "

took place

> > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age,

you've just

> > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our

hands is it

> > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> >

>

> NKCT1980,

>

> Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I heard

(from Bradshaw

> himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

destabilizing

> people and switching their allegiance from themselves to

Codependents Anonymous.

>

> As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues, I

can't imagine

> that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example,

therapists are

> fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make excuses

for even the

> very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist

maintain some degree

> of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

>

> For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for

her to feel

> angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

10-year-old

> girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other

family members

> simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it and

thereby " get

> over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years

later, she is

> going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to

understand " they

> were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on adult

authority and

> her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

>

> To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that

must be " shut

> out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most certainly

be

> investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to

go, not from an

> expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a

therapist, but from

> one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life

itself, which has

> been described as " the best therapy. "

>

> Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that then

it is possible

> to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_

assumed in a

> limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption.

Distracting oneself

> from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from

being able to

> reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

>

> One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out

" What is wrong

> with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How am I

> _appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

>

> For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been

suicidal since

> he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What

happened when you

> were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he

could allow

> himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't want

to direct it

> toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort of

grieving

> process and be fine.

> I've seen this happen with other people.

>

> Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if

they don't know

> history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

>

> Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

One of the best realizations I ever came to was that my father was

and is a just a jerk. He didn't physically abuse me. He was just

mean. Like your husband, I also went through the " he was doing the

best he knew how " thing. Luckily, that was followed by the, " But,

dammit, he's just not a nice man " stage.

When I was caught up in therapy, I was constantly being pressured to

come to terms with our relationship, to let go of being angry at him,

to forgive him, etc. I came to see on my own that a better approach

was to have a little contact with him as possible and to make sure I

never put myself in a position where he felt he had control over me

or could continue to hurt my feelings. The less I was around him and

the less I put myself in situations that were bound to fuel the

resentment that I already felt towards him, the less I found myself

dwelling about my relationship with him past or present. And what I

have come to believe now is that, although I don't have to sit around

all the time feeling bad about what an a**hole he is, I also don't

have to try and try to create a nice person out of someone who is

not. It seems like such an obvious revelation now - that it is

normal, justified, and right to dislike and continue to dislike

someone who has repeatedly been unkind - to be really mad about their

behavior, even. What an elusive concept that was in therapy, though.

Joan

> >

> > > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent,

we

> can all

> > > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from

reading

> therapy

> > > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you

can

> target it

> > > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about

being

> molested

> > > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff

like

> " they don't

> > > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course

there

> was the

> > > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults

> who were all

> > > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and

the " convincing "

> took place

> > > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age,

> you've just

> > > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on

our

> hands is it

> > > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> > >

> >

> > NKCT1980,

> >

> > Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I

heard

> (from Bradshaw

> > himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

> destabilizing

> > people and switching their allegiance from themselves to

> Codependents Anonymous.

> >

> > As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues,

I

> can't imagine

> > that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example,

> therapists are

> > fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make

excuses

> for even the

> > very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist

> maintain some degree

> > of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

> >

> > For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for

> her to feel

> > angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

> 10-year-old

> > girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other

> family members

> > simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it

and

> thereby " get

> > over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years

> later, she is

> > going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to

> understand " they

> > were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on

adult

> authority and

> > her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

> >

> > To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that

> must be " shut

> > out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most

certainly

> be

> > investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to

> go, not from an

> > expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a

> therapist, but from

> > one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life

> itself, which has

> > been described as " the best therapy. "

> >

> > Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that

then

> it is possible

> > to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_

> assumed in a

> > limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption.

> Distracting oneself

> > from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from

> being able to

> > reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

> >

> > One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out

> " What is wrong

> > with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How

am I

> > _appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

> >

> > For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been

> suicidal since

> > he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What

> happened when you

> > were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he

> could allow

> > himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't

want

> to direct it

> > toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort

of

> grieving

> > process and be fine.

> > I've seen this happen with other people.

> >

> > Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if

> they don't know

> > history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

> >

> > Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

One of the best realizations I ever came to was that my father was

and is a just a jerk. He didn't physically abuse me. He was just

mean. Like your husband, I also went through the " he was doing the

best he knew how " thing. Luckily, that was followed by the, " But,

dammit, he's just not a nice man " stage.

When I was caught up in therapy, I was constantly being pressured to

come to terms with our relationship, to let go of being angry at him,

to forgive him, etc. I came to see on my own that a better approach

was to have a little contact with him as possible and to make sure I

never put myself in a position where he felt he had control over me

or could continue to hurt my feelings. The less I was around him and

the less I put myself in situations that were bound to fuel the

resentment that I already felt towards him, the less I found myself

dwelling about my relationship with him past or present. And what I

have come to believe now is that, although I don't have to sit around

all the time feeling bad about what an a**hole he is, I also don't

have to try and try to create a nice person out of someone who is

not. It seems like such an obvious revelation now - that it is

normal, justified, and right to dislike and continue to dislike

someone who has repeatedly been unkind - to be really mad about their

behavior, even. What an elusive concept that was in therapy, though.

Joan

> >

> > > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent,

we

> can all

> > > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from

reading

> therapy

> > > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you

can

> target it

> > > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about

being

> molested

> > > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff

like

> " they don't

> > > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course

there

> was the

> > > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults

> who were all

> > > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and

the " convincing "

> took place

> > > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age,

> you've just

> > > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on

our

> hands is it

> > > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> > >

> >

> > NKCT1980,

> >

> > Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I

heard

> (from Bradshaw

> > himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

> destabilizing

> > people and switching their allegiance from themselves to

> Codependents Anonymous.

> >

> > As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues,

I

> can't imagine

> > that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example,

> therapists are

> > fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make

excuses

> for even the

> > very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist

> maintain some degree

> > of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

> >

> > For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for

> her to feel

> > angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

> 10-year-old

> > girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other

> family members

> > simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it

and

> thereby " get

> > over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years

> later, she is

> > going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to

> understand " they

> > were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on

adult

> authority and

> > her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

> >

> > To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that

> must be " shut

> > out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most

certainly

> be

> > investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to

> go, not from an

> > expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a

> therapist, but from

> > one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life

> itself, which has

> > been described as " the best therapy. "

> >

> > Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that

then

> it is possible

> > to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_

> assumed in a

> > limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption.

> Distracting oneself

> > from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from

> being able to

> > reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

> >

> > One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out

> " What is wrong

> > with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How

am I

> > _appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

> >

> > For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been

> suicidal since

> > he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What

> happened when you

> > were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he

> could allow

> > himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't

want

> to direct it

> > toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort

of

> grieving

> > process and be fine.

> > I've seen this happen with other people.

> >

> > Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if

> they don't know

> > history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

> >

> > Ken Ragge

[Guest guest]

kayleighs@... wrote:

> I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

> abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

> moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children (one

> older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and less

> caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

> attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters played a

> bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

> attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best she

> knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

> grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but he is

> stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

> acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

> brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

> about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight, by

> the way.)

Kayleigh,

I supposed he learned to survive by supressing his emotional response to the

treatment. Assuming that he is doing remarkably well ( or even " so so " ) did

he have anyone, growing up, that he was close to, to take his side?

Ken

[Guest guest]

kayleighs@... wrote:

> I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

> abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

> moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children (one

> older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and less

> caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

> attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters played a

> bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

> attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best she

> knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

> grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but he is

> stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

> acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

> brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

> about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight, by

> the way.)

Kayleigh,

I supposed he learned to survive by supressing his emotional response to the

treatment. Assuming that he is doing remarkably well ( or even " so so " ) did

he have anyone, growing up, that he was close to, to take his side?

Ken

[Guest guest]

kayleighs@... wrote:

> I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

> abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

> moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children (one

> older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and less

> caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

> attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters played a

> bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

> attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best she

> knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

> grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but he is

> stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

> acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

> brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

> about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight, by

> the way.)

Kayleigh,

I supposed he learned to survive by supressing his emotional response to the

treatment. Assuming that he is doing remarkably well ( or even " so so " ) did

he have anyone, growing up, that he was close to, to take his side?

Ken

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken,

You dont know me I usually just read the mail on here but I have wanted to

reply to you.

First of all I have to say Thankyou!!! Your book helped me finally and I

mean finally stop thinking something was wrong with me and leave AA for

good. I have been in and out of that cult for 7 years.

There is so much I want to share with you. I am 26 (I know its not to wise

to share too much on here but I'll take the chance.) Any way I am a

hispanic and white women and struggled with AA because of the patriarchy,

the hypocrisy and the self condenmation. I am a single mom and his father

is in AA, big time. I have a difficult time dealing with him, any

suggestions? Hes always using his AA dogma on me and believes Im in denial.

I would always doubt myself and go back. Until I found this website as well

as Deprogramming. And then I bought your book and that was it.

I started using drugs and alcohol when I was 11. My mother and father both

drank around me in my youth and from 14 to 19 I experienced a lot of abuse.

I feel that we do what we are modeled and that was what I was modeled. And

we keep doing what is comfortable at least I did until we first learn that

there is another way and then practice that. All I know is that I kept

doing self destuctive acts in my life not because I was selfish but simply

because that was all I knew how to do.

My life is so much better, I know how to make my own decisions, trust MY gut

(not my sponsors) and rely on the only person that will always be there ME.

It is such a relief. I mean I struggled with this all my life. Im not

perfect but IM doing it, and I dont need extremely cruel, people who have to

put me down in my life anymore (meaning groupers.)

I could go on but Thankyou. Your book was a godsend. By the way all those

people that were in my life (I was heavily involved) have nothing to do with

me now. So much for " Tolerance is our code, " ha ha. It really hurt at

first considering I had no faith in myself and that was my life but it goes

to show what kind of people they really are.

(hispanic one)

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: CAG- " support groups suck "

>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:09:01 -0700

>

>

>

>NKCT1980@... wrote:

>

> > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we can

>all

> > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading

>therapy

> > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can target

>it

> > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being

>molested

> > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like " they

>don't

> > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there was

>the

> > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults who were

>all

> > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing " took

>place

> > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age, you've

>just

> > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our hands

>is it

> > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> >

>

>NKCT1980,

>

>Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I heard (from

>Bradshaw

>himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

>destabilizing

>people and switching their allegiance from themselves to Codependents

>Anonymous.

>

>As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues, I can't

>imagine

>that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example, therapists

>are

>fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make excuses for

>even the

>very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist maintain some

>degree

>of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

>

>For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for her to

>feel

>angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

>10-year-old

>girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other family

>members

>simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it and thereby

> " get

>over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years later, she

>is

>going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to understand

> " they

>were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on adult

>authority and

>her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

>

>To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that must be

> " shut

>out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most certainly be

>investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to go, not

>from an

>expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a therapist, but

>from

>one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life itself,

>which has

>been described as " the best therapy. "

>

>Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that then it is

>possible

>to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_ assumed in

>a

>limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption. Distracting

>oneself

>from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from being able

>to

>reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

>

>One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out " What is

>wrong

>with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How am I

>_appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

>

>For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been suicidal

>since

>he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What happened when

>you

>were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he could allow

>himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't want to

>direct it

>toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort of

>grieving

>process and be fine.

>I've seen this happen with other people.

>

>Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if they don't

>know

>history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

>

>Ken Ragge

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken,

You dont know me I usually just read the mail on here but I have wanted to

reply to you.

First of all I have to say Thankyou!!! Your book helped me finally and I

mean finally stop thinking something was wrong with me and leave AA for

good. I have been in and out of that cult for 7 years.

There is so much I want to share with you. I am 26 (I know its not to wise

to share too much on here but I'll take the chance.) Any way I am a

hispanic and white women and struggled with AA because of the patriarchy,

the hypocrisy and the self condenmation. I am a single mom and his father

is in AA, big time. I have a difficult time dealing with him, any

suggestions? Hes always using his AA dogma on me and believes Im in denial.

I would always doubt myself and go back. Until I found this website as well

as Deprogramming. And then I bought your book and that was it.

I started using drugs and alcohol when I was 11. My mother and father both

drank around me in my youth and from 14 to 19 I experienced a lot of abuse.

I feel that we do what we are modeled and that was what I was modeled. And

we keep doing what is comfortable at least I did until we first learn that

there is another way and then practice that. All I know is that I kept

doing self destuctive acts in my life not because I was selfish but simply

because that was all I knew how to do.

My life is so much better, I know how to make my own decisions, trust MY gut

(not my sponsors) and rely on the only person that will always be there ME.

It is such a relief. I mean I struggled with this all my life. Im not

perfect but IM doing it, and I dont need extremely cruel, people who have to

put me down in my life anymore (meaning groupers.)

I could go on but Thankyou. Your book was a godsend. By the way all those

people that were in my life (I was heavily involved) have nothing to do with

me now. So much for " Tolerance is our code, " ha ha. It really hurt at

first considering I had no faith in myself and that was my life but it goes

to show what kind of people they really are.

(hispanic one)

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: CAG- " support groups suck "

>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:09:01 -0700

>

>

>

>NKCT1980@... wrote:

>

> > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we can

>all

> > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading

>therapy

> > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can target

>it

> > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being

>molested

> > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like " they

>don't

> > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there was

>the

> > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults who were

>all

> > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing " took

>place

> > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age, you've

>just

> > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our hands

>is it

> > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> >

>

>NKCT1980,

>

>Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I heard (from

>Bradshaw

>himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

>destabilizing

>people and switching their allegiance from themselves to Codependents

>Anonymous.

>

>As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues, I can't

>imagine

>that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example, therapists

>are

>fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make excuses for

>even the

>very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist maintain some

>degree

>of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

>

>For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for her to

>feel

>angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

>10-year-old

>girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other family

>members

>simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it and thereby

> " get

>over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years later, she

>is

>going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to understand

> " they

>were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on adult

>authority and

>her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

>

>To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that must be

> " shut

>out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most certainly be

>investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to go, not

>from an

>expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a therapist, but

>from

>one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life itself,

>which has

>been described as " the best therapy. "

>

>Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that then it is

>possible

>to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_ assumed in

>a

>limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption. Distracting

>oneself

>from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from being able

>to

>reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

>

>One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out " What is

>wrong

>with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How am I

>_appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

>

>For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been suicidal

>since

>he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What happened when

>you

>were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he could allow

>himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't want to

>direct it

>toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort of

>grieving

>process and be fine.

>I've seen this happen with other people.

>

>Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if they don't

>know

>history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

>

>Ken Ragge

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Ken,

You dont know me I usually just read the mail on here but I have wanted to

reply to you.

First of all I have to say Thankyou!!! Your book helped me finally and I

mean finally stop thinking something was wrong with me and leave AA for

good. I have been in and out of that cult for 7 years.

There is so much I want to share with you. I am 26 (I know its not to wise

to share too much on here but I'll take the chance.) Any way I am a

hispanic and white women and struggled with AA because of the patriarchy,

the hypocrisy and the self condenmation. I am a single mom and his father

is in AA, big time. I have a difficult time dealing with him, any

suggestions? Hes always using his AA dogma on me and believes Im in denial.

I would always doubt myself and go back. Until I found this website as well

as Deprogramming. And then I bought your book and that was it.

I started using drugs and alcohol when I was 11. My mother and father both

drank around me in my youth and from 14 to 19 I experienced a lot of abuse.

I feel that we do what we are modeled and that was what I was modeled. And

we keep doing what is comfortable at least I did until we first learn that

there is another way and then practice that. All I know is that I kept

doing self destuctive acts in my life not because I was selfish but simply

because that was all I knew how to do.

My life is so much better, I know how to make my own decisions, trust MY gut

(not my sponsors) and rely on the only person that will always be there ME.

It is such a relief. I mean I struggled with this all my life. Im not

perfect but IM doing it, and I dont need extremely cruel, people who have to

put me down in my life anymore (meaning groupers.)

I could go on but Thankyou. Your book was a godsend. By the way all those

people that were in my life (I was heavily involved) have nothing to do with

me now. So much for " Tolerance is our code, " ha ha. It really hurt at

first considering I had no faith in myself and that was my life but it goes

to show what kind of people they really are.

(hispanic one)

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: CAG- " support groups suck "

>Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2001 12:09:01 -0700

>

>

>

>NKCT1980@... wrote:

>

> > Well, with 90-some percent of the population being codependent, we can

>all

> > lay claim to screwed-up childhoods. My understanding from reading

>therapy

> > approach texts is that unless there is something specific you can target

>it

> > gets too evasive. (i.e. it would be productive to talk about being

>molested

> > after the client never had dealth with it before, but stuff like " they

>don't

> > love me unconditionally " don't lead anywhere.) And of course there was

>the

> > small-time media uproar about children, adolescents, and adults who were

>all

> > " convinced " of false acts committed long ago, and the " convincing " took

>place

> > on the couch. Seriously, when you reach, say, 25 years of age, you've

>just

> > survived it. You can't do it over, and with so little time on our hands

>is it

> > worth trying to delve into vague memories?

> >

>

>NKCT1980,

>

>Has the level of " codependency " dropped to only 90%? Last I heard (from

>Bradshaw

>himself) it's 100%. I will say that Coda is _very_ successful at

>destabilizing

>people and switching their allegiance from themselves to Codependents

>Anonymous.

>

>As far as therapists working with patients on " childhood " issues, I can't

>imagine

>that it can do anything _other_ than cause harm. For example, therapists

>are

>fond of coercing " forgiveness " and expect the client to make excuses for

>even the

>very worst parental behavior. This might help the therapist maintain some

>degree

>of equilibrium, but does nothing for the client.

>

>For example, if an adult woman is raped, it is generally okay for her to

>feel

>angry, sad, whatever, for as long as she needs to. However, if a

>10-year-old

>girl is raped by her father or uncle or whoever, and the other family

>members

>simply don't want to hear about it, she is unable to process it and thereby

> " get

>over it. " When she walks into a therapist's office twenty years later, she

>is

>going to be doubted, and even if she is believed, then she is to understand

> " they

>were doing the best they could, " etc. with all focus being on adult

>authority and

>her feelings being side-tracked. " You must forgive to be well. "

>

>To me, a most destructive thing, is to have areas of oneself that must be

> " shut

>out " or one must " destract oneself " from. These can most certainly be

>investigated at ones own pace and taking the lead in direction to go, not

>from an

>expert who is trying to resolve his own conflicts by being a therapist, but

>from

>one's own internal mechanisms for attention in response to life itself,

>which has

>been described as " the best therapy. "

>

>Just one important reason to be _open to_ one's past, is that then it is

>possible

>to directly challenge ones own incorrect assumptions _correctly_ assumed in

>a

>limited environment where that _was_ the correct assumption. Distracting

>oneself

>from one's own feelings and thoughts more or less keeps one from being able

>to

>reopen those decisions and deciding otherwise.

>

>One more point, groups like Coda take the approach of finding out " What is

>wrong

>with you. " From my perspective, the search should be for " How am I

>_appropriately_ responding to what happened? "

>

>For example, there was someone on this list who said he had been suicidal

>since

>he was ten. The appropriate question would have been, " What happened when

>you

>were ten? " and most appropriate for him to ask himself. If he could allow

>himself to feel his rage, to know what it is about, he wouldn't want to

>direct it

>toward himself any more. He would probably go through some sort of

>grieving

>process and be fine.

>I've seen this happen with other people.

>

>Why shut out one's own history? They say about nations, that if they don't

>know

>history they are doomed to repeat it. People aren't so different.

>

>Ken Ragge

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

NKCT1980@... wrote:

> Ken,

> as the intro. to your book says-you're a master of writing. A lot of stuff to

> think about!

Nick,

When someone writes an intro for you, they are supposed to say things about you

that makes your head swell up so big you can't fit out the door if you believe

it. <G>

>

> The only thing that I should clarify is the issue of parental abuse. In a

> therapy setting, the three options are:

> 1. completely ignore it, and assume it has no impact on your current " self "

> whatsoever (most of the cognitive behavioral-based approaches do something

> like this)

> 2. client complains and therapist feels compelled to *validate* the whining,

> and, to a degree, convince the client that he/she had a dysfunctional

> childhood. The benefit, in the therapist's eyes, might be that a link is

> discovered, and the client may suddenly brighten up when they find a source

> that made her the victim she seemingly wants to be. The client will lose any

> doubt that she might just be a whiner, rather than a victim, and will

> eventually move on. A common theme that I've seen used in 12-step rehab is

> death of a loved one as abandonment. If a 48 year old man, after told he was

> a sick, suffering, diseased alcoholic, was then asked if he feels

> " abandoned " , I would guess he would reply " yes " , especially since the " yes "

> answer is really the correct one in the context of the question. Therapy time

> will then be spent venting at the deceased for no substantive reason, or

> continuing to affirm the identity of " abandoned " (on top of all the

> disgusting AA labels)

> 3. Ask questions, and when obvious patterns of abuse come out, affirm this.

> This, of course, is the only ethical way for the therapist to conduct the

> sessions, but I don't think the current population seeking psychotherapy

> (i.e. more middle-class and well-functioning) are likely to reach adulthood

> and then suddenly " discover " that they were abused. Hopefully the silence

> gets broken as early as possible.

>

You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen closely to what

they are trying to say and _hear_ them and " give permission " to have whatever

emotional response they have without trying to mold it into obedience to the

therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is based in her

experience that in taking the patients' side they " get well " remarkably quick.

Using the TA model, virtually all therapy (most notably " codepency " / " ACA "

therapy

only acknowledges and relates to " the Child " and " the Parent " . " The Adult "

simply does not exist in their context. The Adult is never allowed to be in

charge. There are the bad " family of origin " parents, the client (newcomer) is

the Child and that is all. Using the model (I mostly only like it re Coda/ACA)

it is inconceivable (and probably heartily discouraged) to ever be the Adult.

To assume ones experience has had no effect is assuming we are more like amoebas

and insects than like our fellow mammals. The most important thing to me, is

that if one " redefines away " one's own history, one is much more likely to

repeat

it. For example, those who are able to be angry about their own abuse (e.g.

beatings) are the least likely to repeat it on their own children.

I would add that one can go to therapy and rant and rave about ritual Satanic

abuse (that didn't exist) or run of the mill sexual molestation that didn't

exist

and do worse than get nowhere. I believe " the whining " you speak of comes from

therapy that really sucks, from when someone goes to get help and gets

intellectual abstraction and _not_ any real emotional support.

>

> The only other thing I wanted to mention was that CODA purportedly has a

> pretty large membership (and, as you said, 98% of us, according to Bradshaw,

> should be members, but I guess we're in denial) but among the non-substance

> addiction based step groups, I've never seen anyone speak out against their

> own bad experience in it-in fact, compared to OA, I don't think CODA is even

> that well known-but maybe that's my own misperception.

>

I suspect it might be rather regional.

>

> For a unique group like that, one might expect different social problems (for

> example, maybe very little 13th stepping, if any, but other prominent

> dysfunctional behavior.)

>

> And I just remembered that I could probably fit an " alcoholic " diagnosis on

> my mom, and my dad was morphine-dependent prior to his death due to cancer,

> so I also have the unique disorder of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics). I

> forget to whom this is attributed and which book it came out of, one of the

> few which are critical of AA...just take out the " OA " and you've got the

> problem-they are ADULT CHILDREN! They will not show any emotional maturity.

>

> Now I thought that was funny. Anyways I guess I'll stop typing because I

> doubt anyone read this far down.......

Not true. <G>

>

>

> My name's Nick and I am gratefully recovering from a few of these:

> DSM-IV Code 296.87 (Atypical bipolar, primarily depressive periods),

> Alcoholic, Addicted to: food, water, air at this time. Displays

> chemical-seeking behavior, such as breathing. Prior addictions which are

> still diseases he suffers from: alcohol, all benzodiazepine variations,

> heroin, cocaine, marijuana. Denies any of the above disorders since he hasn't

> used chemicals in a long time, however he does not have any chips or

> keychains to prove this. Admits he has the disease of messiness but he has

> not " hit bottom " , which is the day that messiness will land him in the

> gutter, and he will surrender to loose papers. Codepdent. ACOA. Affective

> disorder: SAD (Seasonal Affective, the disease of getting a little down in

> the wintertime,) and he very well could have ADHD, since there's no firm

> evidence that it exists.

>

Being from Florida, long, dark, cold wet spells get me down. But then they seem

to get everyone down here in California that isn't from Washington. <G>

You can escape hitting bottom for messiness by hiring a cleaning lady. One is

then _forced to_ clean up some before she shows.

Aside from most of the rest of your addictions and diseases, I'm also addicted

to

my job. Of course, that is the only way I can get food, clean water and shelter

fixes.

On a more serious note, twice recently I've heard women talk about having a mild

version of ADD. One was talking about taking drugs to fix her " biochemical

disorder. " After speaking to the first one (at work, the other posted on the

Internet) it occurs to me that it isn't an issue of disease, but of what you do

with your talents. Einstein supposedly suffered from the same thing, but rather

than gamble, smoke, drink, whatever, he mused on relativity. Good thing noone

cured him. We'd all (including probably him) would be worse off for it.

Ken

[Guest guest]

NKCT1980@... wrote:

> Ken,

> as the intro. to your book says-you're a master of writing. A lot of stuff to

> think about!

Nick,

When someone writes an intro for you, they are supposed to say things about you

that makes your head swell up so big you can't fit out the door if you believe

it. <G>

>

> The only thing that I should clarify is the issue of parental abuse. In a

> therapy setting, the three options are:

> 1. completely ignore it, and assume it has no impact on your current " self "

> whatsoever (most of the cognitive behavioral-based approaches do something

> like this)

> 2. client complains and therapist feels compelled to *validate* the whining,

> and, to a degree, convince the client that he/she had a dysfunctional

> childhood. The benefit, in the therapist's eyes, might be that a link is

> discovered, and the client may suddenly brighten up when they find a source

> that made her the victim she seemingly wants to be. The client will lose any

> doubt that she might just be a whiner, rather than a victim, and will

> eventually move on. A common theme that I've seen used in 12-step rehab is

> death of a loved one as abandonment. If a 48 year old man, after told he was

> a sick, suffering, diseased alcoholic, was then asked if he feels

> " abandoned " , I would guess he would reply " yes " , especially since the " yes "

> answer is really the correct one in the context of the question. Therapy time

> will then be spent venting at the deceased for no substantive reason, or

> continuing to affirm the identity of " abandoned " (on top of all the

> disgusting AA labels)

> 3. Ask questions, and when obvious patterns of abuse come out, affirm this.

> This, of course, is the only ethical way for the therapist to conduct the

> sessions, but I don't think the current population seeking psychotherapy

> (i.e. more middle-class and well-functioning) are likely to reach adulthood

> and then suddenly " discover " that they were abused. Hopefully the silence

> gets broken as early as possible.

>

You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen closely to what

they are trying to say and _hear_ them and " give permission " to have whatever

emotional response they have without trying to mold it into obedience to the

therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is based in her

experience that in taking the patients' side they " get well " remarkably quick.

Using the TA model, virtually all therapy (most notably " codepency " / " ACA "

therapy

only acknowledges and relates to " the Child " and " the Parent " . " The Adult "

simply does not exist in their context. The Adult is never allowed to be in

charge. There are the bad " family of origin " parents, the client (newcomer) is

the Child and that is all. Using the model (I mostly only like it re Coda/ACA)

it is inconceivable (and probably heartily discouraged) to ever be the Adult.

To assume ones experience has had no effect is assuming we are more like amoebas

and insects than like our fellow mammals. The most important thing to me, is

that if one " redefines away " one's own history, one is much more likely to

repeat

it. For example, those who are able to be angry about their own abuse (e.g.

beatings) are the least likely to repeat it on their own children.

I would add that one can go to therapy and rant and rave about ritual Satanic

abuse (that didn't exist) or run of the mill sexual molestation that didn't

exist

and do worse than get nowhere. I believe " the whining " you speak of comes from

therapy that really sucks, from when someone goes to get help and gets

intellectual abstraction and _not_ any real emotional support.

>

> The only other thing I wanted to mention was that CODA purportedly has a

> pretty large membership (and, as you said, 98% of us, according to Bradshaw,

> should be members, but I guess we're in denial) but among the non-substance

> addiction based step groups, I've never seen anyone speak out against their

> own bad experience in it-in fact, compared to OA, I don't think CODA is even

> that well known-but maybe that's my own misperception.

>

I suspect it might be rather regional.

>

> For a unique group like that, one might expect different social problems (for

> example, maybe very little 13th stepping, if any, but other prominent

> dysfunctional behavior.)

>

> And I just remembered that I could probably fit an " alcoholic " diagnosis on

> my mom, and my dad was morphine-dependent prior to his death due to cancer,

> so I also have the unique disorder of ACOA (Adult Children of Alcholics). I

> forget to whom this is attributed and which book it came out of, one of the

> few which are critical of AA...just take out the " OA " and you've got the

> problem-they are ADULT CHILDREN! They will not show any emotional maturity.

>

> Now I thought that was funny. Anyways I guess I'll stop typing because I

> doubt anyone read this far down.......

Not true. <G>

>

>

> My name's Nick and I am gratefully recovering from a few of these:

> DSM-IV Code 296.87 (Atypical bipolar, primarily depressive periods),

> Alcoholic, Addicted to: food, water, air at this time. Displays

> chemical-seeking behavior, such as breathing. Prior addictions which are

> still diseases he suffers from: alcohol, all benzodiazepine variations,

> heroin, cocaine, marijuana. Denies any of the above disorders since he hasn't

> used chemicals in a long time, however he does not have any chips or

> keychains to prove this. Admits he has the disease of messiness but he has

> not " hit bottom " , which is the day that messiness will land him in the

> gutter, and he will surrender to loose papers. Codepdent. ACOA. Affective

> disorder: SAD (Seasonal Affective, the disease of getting a little down in

> the wintertime,) and he very well could have ADHD, since there's no firm

> evidence that it exists.

>

Being from Florida, long, dark, cold wet spells get me down. But then they seem

to get everyone down here in California that isn't from Washington. <G>

You can escape hitting bottom for messiness by hiring a cleaning lady. One is

then _forced to_ clean up some before she shows.

Aside from most of the rest of your addictions and diseases, I'm also addicted

to

my job. Of course, that is the only way I can get food, clean water and shelter

fixes.

On a more serious note, twice recently I've heard women talk about having a mild

version of ADD. One was talking about taking drugs to fix her " biochemical

disorder. " After speaking to the first one (at work, the other posted on the

Internet) it occurs to me that it isn't an issue of disease, but of what you do

with your talents. Einstein supposedly suffered from the same thing, but rather

than gamble, smoke, drink, whatever, he mused on relativity. Good thing noone

cured him. We'd all (including probably him) would be worse off for it.

Ken

[Guest guest]

> You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen

closely to what

> they are trying to say and _hear_ them and " give permission " to have

whatever

> emotional response they have without trying to mold it into

obedience to the

> therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is

based in her

> experience that in taking the patients' side they " get well "

remarkably quick.

I would imagine that, if a person entering therapy is lucky enough to

have a therapist who actually does what you describe above, it may

well be the first time in that person's life that someone actually

listened to them and didn't try to tell them what was going on. It

seems to me like just in everyday life, outside of any therapeutic

setting, people are starved for attention. I've found that I enjoy

listening to people talk about their lives and their problems, so I'm

seriously considering taking a couple of years and becoming an

" addiction counselor " (that's the name of the program at the community

college near my home).

When I think of myself, I seem like such a flake that I can't imagine

people trusting me or seeing me as credible; but other people seem to

have a consistently different perception of me. I have to admit, the

flakier I allow myself to be, the happier I am and the more I like

myself, the better I function. And the program is only a year of

coursework, followed by a year of internships--it sounds

relatively low-stress, especially compared to grad school. I'd be half

done with the community college course before I'd even be able to

begin grad school.

Anyway, that's my latest idea. I talked to a counselor at the

community college and told him a little of my story, and it sounds

like their course is not 12-step focused. In the catalog it says

" Historic approcahes, Jellinek theory and the disease concept are

critically reviewed. " I have figured out where I'd get the money from

to pay for tuition and everything!

judith

[Guest guest]

> You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen

closely to what

> they are trying to say and _hear_ them and " give permission " to have

whatever

> emotional response they have without trying to mold it into

obedience to the

> therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is

based in her

> experience that in taking the patients' side they " get well "

remarkably quick.

I would imagine that, if a person entering therapy is lucky enough to

have a therapist who actually does what you describe above, it may

well be the first time in that person's life that someone actually

listened to them and didn't try to tell them what was going on. It

seems to me like just in everyday life, outside of any therapeutic

setting, people are starved for attention. I've found that I enjoy

listening to people talk about their lives and their problems, so I'm

seriously considering taking a couple of years and becoming an

" addiction counselor " (that's the name of the program at the community

college near my home).

When I think of myself, I seem like such a flake that I can't imagine

people trusting me or seeing me as credible; but other people seem to

have a consistently different perception of me. I have to admit, the

flakier I allow myself to be, the happier I am and the more I like

myself, the better I function. And the program is only a year of

coursework, followed by a year of internships--it sounds

relatively low-stress, especially compared to grad school. I'd be half

done with the community college course before I'd even be able to

begin grad school.

Anyway, that's my latest idea. I talked to a counselor at the

community college and told him a little of my story, and it sounds

like their course is not 12-step focused. In the catalog it says

" Historic approcahes, Jellinek theory and the disease concept are

critically reviewed. " I have figured out where I'd get the money from

to pay for tuition and everything!

judith

[Guest guest]

> You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen

closely to what

> they are trying to say and _hear_ them and " give permission " to have

whatever

> emotional response they have without trying to mold it into

obedience to the

> therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is

based in her

> experience that in taking the patients' side they " get well "

remarkably quick.

I would imagine that, if a person entering therapy is lucky enough to

have a therapist who actually does what you describe above, it may

well be the first time in that person's life that someone actually

listened to them and didn't try to tell them what was going on. It

seems to me like just in everyday life, outside of any therapeutic

setting, people are starved for attention. I've found that I enjoy

listening to people talk about their lives and their problems, so I'm

seriously considering taking a couple of years and becoming an

" addiction counselor " (that's the name of the program at the community

college near my home).

When I think of myself, I seem like such a flake that I can't imagine

people trusting me or seeing me as credible; but other people seem to

have a consistently different perception of me. I have to admit, the

flakier I allow myself to be, the happier I am and the more I like

myself, the better I function. And the program is only a year of

coursework, followed by a year of internships--it sounds

relatively low-stress, especially compared to grad school. I'd be half

done with the community college course before I'd even be able to

begin grad school.

Anyway, that's my latest idea. I talked to a counselor at the

community college and told him a little of my story, and it sounds

like their course is not 12-step focused. In the catalog it says

" Historic approcahes, Jellinek theory and the disease concept are

critically reviewed. " I have figured out where I'd get the money from

to pay for tuition and everything!

judith

[Guest guest]

Hey Judith.

For what it's worth I'm sure you'll be an outstanding counselor.

I think your both have the ability to listen and at the same time the willingness to respect other persons borders.

Actually this is what I've come down to after more than 20 years as a professional psychologist.

It sounds simple, but isn't. But when you've found it, it's both the easiest and most efficient way.

Good luck

Bjørn

P.S.

I know I'm not behaving according to my own ideals on the lists, but that's on purpose.

I've found it very useful to distinguish very clearly between what you're doing as a person and as a professional.

In my view many therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists are not able to keep their personality as a human being alive and at the same time perform therapy.

They are letting the person from the therapy invade their personal lives, with devastating consequences. They lose their humanity in the process.

It's important to recognize, that therapy is nothing but a bleak image of real life. It's not the other way around.

B.

Re: CAG-"support groups suck"

> You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen closely to what> they are trying to say and _hear_ them and "give permission" to have whatever> emotional response they have without trying to mold it into obedience to the> therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is based in her> experience that in taking the patients' side they "get well" remarkably quick.I would imagine that, if a person entering therapy is lucky enough to have a therapist who actually does what you describe above, it may well be the first time in that person's life that someone actually listened to them and didn't try to tell them what was going on. It seems to me like just in everyday life, outside of any therapeutic setting, people are starved for attention. I've found that I enjoy listening to people talk about their lives and their problems, so I'm seriously considering taking a couple of years and becoming an "addiction counselor" (that's the name of the program at the community college near my home). When I think of myself, I seem like such a flake that I can't imagine people trusting me or seeing me as credible; but other people seem to have a consistently different perception of me. I have to admit, the flakier I allow myself to be, the happier I am and the more I like myself, the better I function. And the program is only a year of coursework, followed by a year of internships--it sounds relatively low-stress, especially compared to grad school. I'd be half done with the community college course before I'd even be able to begin grad school.Anyway, that's my latest idea. I talked to a counselor at the community college and told him a little of my story, and it sounds like their course is not 12-step focused. In the catalog it says "Historic approcahes, Jellinek theory and the disease concept are critically reviewed." I have figured out where I'd get the money from to pay for tuition and everything!judith

[Guest guest]

Hey Judith.

For what it's worth I'm sure you'll be an outstanding counselor.

I think your both have the ability to listen and at the same time the willingness to respect other persons borders.

Actually this is what I've come down to after more than 20 years as a professional psychologist.

It sounds simple, but isn't. But when you've found it, it's both the easiest and most efficient way.

Good luck

Bjørn

P.S.

I know I'm not behaving according to my own ideals on the lists, but that's on purpose.

I've found it very useful to distinguish very clearly between what you're doing as a person and as a professional.

In my view many therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists are not able to keep their personality as a human being alive and at the same time perform therapy.

They are letting the person from the therapy invade their personal lives, with devastating consequences. They lose their humanity in the process.

It's important to recognize, that therapy is nothing but a bleak image of real life. It's not the other way around.

B.

Re: CAG-"support groups suck"

> You forgot number four. Simply take a person's side. Listen closely to what> they are trying to say and _hear_ them and "give permission" to have whatever> emotional response they have without trying to mold it into obedience to the> therapist's own personal authority. Alice 's writing is based in her> experience that in taking the patients' side they "get well" remarkably quick.I would imagine that, if a person entering therapy is lucky enough to have a therapist who actually does what you describe above, it may well be the first time in that person's life that someone actually listened to them and didn't try to tell them what was going on. It seems to me like just in everyday life, outside of any therapeutic setting, people are starved for attention. I've found that I enjoy listening to people talk about their lives and their problems, so I'm seriously considering taking a couple of years and becoming an "addiction counselor" (that's the name of the program at the community college near my home). When I think of myself, I seem like such a flake that I can't imagine people trusting me or seeing me as credible; but other people seem to have a consistently different perception of me. I have to admit, the flakier I allow myself to be, the happier I am and the more I like myself, the better I function. And the program is only a year of coursework, followed by a year of internships--it sounds relatively low-stress, especially compared to grad school. I'd be half done with the community college course before I'd even be able to begin grad school.Anyway, that's my latest idea. I talked to a counselor at the community college and told him a little of my story, and it sounds like their course is not 12-step focused. In the catalog it says "Historic approcahes, Jellinek theory and the disease concept are critically reviewed." I have figured out where I'd get the money from to pay for tuition and everything!judith

[Guest guest]

He didn't have another adult to relate to, as far as I know. He does

okay most of the time.

>

> > I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

> > abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

> > moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children

(one

> > older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and

less

> > caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

> > attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters

played a

> > bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

> > attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best

she

> > knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

> > grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but

he is

> > stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

> > acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

> > brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

> > about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight,

by

> > the way.)

>

> Kayleigh,

>

> I supposed he learned to survive by supressing his emotional

response to the

> treatment. Assuming that he is doing remarkably well ( or even " so

so " ) did

> he have anyone, growing up, that he was close to, to take his side?

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

He didn't have another adult to relate to, as far as I know. He does

okay most of the time.

>

> > I think you are right on, Ken. My husband suffered an incredibly

> > abusive childhood, though little physical abuse was involved, and

> > moreover he was unfortunately the oldest male of nine children

(one

> > older sister). As the children get younger, they are less and

less

> > caught up in this trauma, since there were more kids and Mom's

> > attention was spread over more of them plus the older sisters

played a

> > bigger role in raising the younger kids, thus sparing them Mom's

> > attention. My husband has got as far as, " She was doing the best

she

> > knew how, " and I think he is certainly right (Mom being an eighth

> > grade dropout who had no ability to emphathize with anyone), but

he is

> > stuck there. I have pointed out that it would be beneficial to

> > acknowledge how inappropriate her behavior was (chasing him with

> > brooms, throwing water on him to " motivate " him), and to get angry

> > about it, but he won't. (No therapists involved in his insight,

by

> > the way.)

>

> Kayleigh,

>

> I supposed he learned to survive by supressing his emotional

response to the

> treatment. Assuming that he is doing remarkably well ( or even " so

so " ) did

> he have anyone, growing up, that he was close to, to take his side?

>

> Ken

[Guest guest]

> Hey Judith.

>

> For what it's worth I'm sure you'll be an outstanding counselor.

> I think your both have the ability to listen and at the same time

the willingness to respect other persons borders.

> Actually this is what I've come down to after more than 20 years as

a professional psychologist.

> It sounds simple, but isn't. But when you've found it, it's both the

easiest and most efficient way.

> Good luck

Thank you, Bjørn.

> I know I'm not behaving according to my own ideals on the lists, but

that's on purpose.

It's good to step out of character once in awhile My theory is that

anyone who participates in internet mailing lists or newsgroups for

any length of time, develops an internet identity that is at least

partly different from their " real life " identity. Either intentionally

or unintentionally. I could be wrong about that.

> I've found it very useful to distinguish very clearly between what

you're doing as a person and as a professional.

> In my view many therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists are not able

to keep their personality as a human being alive and at the same time

perform therapy.

> They are letting the person from the therapy invade their personal

lives, with devastating consequences. They lose their humanity in the

process.

> It's important to recognize, that therapy is nothing but a bleak

image of real life. It's not the other way around.

I could spend a lot of time thinking about your last line, here. I'm

aware of a tendency in myself to try and take care of people, to try

and help them. To try and prevent them from making mistakes, feeling

pain. That, I think, is what you refer to as a bleak image of real

life.

I think I want that myself: someone to take care of me and protect me.

At least part of me longs for security, longs to be part of the herd,

a domestic animal. A follower. And yet, I do not play the role of

follower or domestic animal well. I fight against the urge to be

visible, to risk expulsion from the herd. When I look back, I see that

I often chose *not* to listen to people who had faith in me. Rather, I

chose to listen to people who assumed the worst about me. This is

safe.

Many times, when I am in the midst of beating myself up with an

AA-style moral inventory, it is others who remind me that I'm not

horrible. I'm not lacking in personal responsibility or human decency.

The only thing I'm doing wrong is defining myself too narrowly, based

only on the perceptions of those who assume the worst about me.

So I think my challenge will be to remember that I can only help

people to see themselves. That's what I think good therapy can do; the

rest is left to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Thanks again for your reply, Bjørn. I have a lot of respect for you,

so your vote of confidence means a lot.

judith

[Guest guest]

> Hey Judith.

>

> For what it's worth I'm sure you'll be an outstanding counselor.

> I think your both have the ability to listen and at the same time

the willingness to respect other persons borders.

> Actually this is what I've come down to after more than 20 years as

a professional psychologist.

> It sounds simple, but isn't. But when you've found it, it's both the

easiest and most efficient way.

> Good luck

Thank you, Bjørn.

> I know I'm not behaving according to my own ideals on the lists, but

that's on purpose.

It's good to step out of character once in awhile My theory is that

anyone who participates in internet mailing lists or newsgroups for

any length of time, develops an internet identity that is at least

partly different from their " real life " identity. Either intentionally

or unintentionally. I could be wrong about that.

> I've found it very useful to distinguish very clearly between what

you're doing as a person and as a professional.

> In my view many therapists/psychologists/psychiatrists are not able

to keep their personality as a human being alive and at the same time

perform therapy.

> They are letting the person from the therapy invade their personal

lives, with devastating consequences. They lose their humanity in the

process.

> It's important to recognize, that therapy is nothing but a bleak

image of real life. It's not the other way around.

I could spend a lot of time thinking about your last line, here. I'm

aware of a tendency in myself to try and take care of people, to try

and help them. To try and prevent them from making mistakes, feeling

pain. That, I think, is what you refer to as a bleak image of real

life.

I think I want that myself: someone to take care of me and protect me.

At least part of me longs for security, longs to be part of the herd,

a domestic animal. A follower. And yet, I do not play the role of

follower or domestic animal well. I fight against the urge to be

visible, to risk expulsion from the herd. When I look back, I see that

I often chose *not* to listen to people who had faith in me. Rather, I

chose to listen to people who assumed the worst about me. This is

safe.

Many times, when I am in the midst of beating myself up with an

AA-style moral inventory, it is others who remind me that I'm not

horrible. I'm not lacking in personal responsibility or human decency.

The only thing I'm doing wrong is defining myself too narrowly, based

only on the perceptions of those who assume the worst about me.

So I think my challenge will be to remember that I can only help

people to see themselves. That's what I think good therapy can do; the

rest is left to the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Thanks again for your reply, Bjørn. I have a lot of respect for you,

so your vote of confidence means a lot.

judith