Re: Tommy or anyone: Court Ordered AA

[Guest guest]

Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

friend signed.

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

[Guest guest]

Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

friend signed.

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

[Guest guest]

Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

friend signed.

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

[Guest guest]

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

Joan,

When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member to

sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I was

ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip signing

is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised the

anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

" excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the Supreme

Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

Establishment Clause.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

Joan,

When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member to

sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I was

ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip signing

is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised the

anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

" excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the Supreme

Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

Establishment Clause.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> Joan

Joan,

When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member to

sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I was

ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip signing

is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised the

anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

" excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the Supreme

Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

Establishment Clause.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

At 11:02 PM 3/27/01 -0000, kayleighs@... wrote:

>Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

>chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

>whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

>usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

>affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

>court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

>friend signed.

I seem to recall signing slips that had a space for phone number.

Even if they did, as best as I can tell such slips were never verified.

But then there was the Judge who ordered defendants to the Saturday

Noon meeting at the NABA club, which the Judge regularly attended. I

suppose he considered ordering a defendant to attend AA to be part of

his 12th-step work.

>

>> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

>> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

>> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

>> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

>> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

>> Joan

As Tommy answered, it can technically affect anonymity, but most AA'ers

with a year or more in the program are all too glad to give their full

name and phone number to anyone if they think it might help get them sober.

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 11:02 PM 3/27/01 -0000, kayleighs@... wrote:

>Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

>chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

>whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

>usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

>affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

>court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

>friend signed.

I seem to recall signing slips that had a space for phone number.

Even if they did, as best as I can tell such slips were never verified.

But then there was the Judge who ordered defendants to the Saturday

Noon meeting at the NABA club, which the Judge regularly attended. I

suppose he considered ordering a defendant to attend AA to be part of

his 12th-step work.

>

>> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

>> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

>> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

>> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

>> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

>> Joan

As Tommy answered, it can technically affect anonymity, but most AA'ers

with a year or more in the program are all too glad to give their full

name and phone number to anyone if they think it might help get them sober.

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 11:02 PM 3/27/01 -0000, kayleighs@... wrote:

>Normally the court asks for attendance slips signed either by the

>chair or by anyone in attendance. They are unable to check up on

>whether the person has really been there, because whoever signs

>usually only uses a last initial. So for the most part, it does not

>affect anonymity. Obviously, unless you live in a small town, the

>court will not actually know whether you attended or whether your best

>friend signed.

I seem to recall signing slips that had a space for phone number.

Even if they did, as best as I can tell such slips were never verified.

But then there was the Judge who ordered defendants to the Saturday

Noon meeting at the NABA club, which the Judge regularly attended. I

suppose he considered ordering a defendant to attend AA to be part of

his 12th-step work.

>

>> I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend AA

>> meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to the

>> meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time period

>> that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order has

>> been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

>> Joan

As Tommy answered, it can technically affect anonymity, but most AA'ers

with a year or more in the program are all too glad to give their full

name and phone number to anyone if they think it might help get them sober.

-----

This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

> > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend

AA

> > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

the

> > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

period

> > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

has

> > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > Joan

>

> Joan,

>

> When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member

to

> sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

was

> ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

signing

> is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

> officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

the

> anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

Supreme

> Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> Establishment Clause.

>

> Tommy

Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person needing

the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to know

if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

measure in place to prevent it.

Joan

[Guest guest]

> > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend

AA

> > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

the

> > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

period

> > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

has

> > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > Joan

>

> Joan,

>

> When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member

to

> sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

was

> ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

signing

> is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

> officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

the

> anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

Supreme

> Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> Establishment Clause.

>

> Tommy

Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person needing

the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to know

if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

measure in place to prevent it.

Joan

[Guest guest]

> > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to attend

AA

> > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

the

> > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

period

> > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

has

> > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > Joan

>

> Joan,

>

> When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA member

to

> sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

was

> ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

signing

> is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of probation

> officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

the

> anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

Supreme

> Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> Establishment Clause.

>

> Tommy

Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person needing

the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to know

if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

measure in place to prevent it.

Joan

[Guest guest]

> > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

attend

> AA

> > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

> the

> > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> period

> > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

> has

> > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > Joan

> >

> > Joan,

> >

> > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

member

> to

> > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

> was

> > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> signing

> > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

probation

> > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

> the

> > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> Supreme

> > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > Establishment Clause.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

Hi,

My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the signatures

were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

invented.

[Guest guest]

> > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

attend

> AA

> > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

> the

> > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> period

> > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

> has

> > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > Joan

> >

> > Joan,

> >

> > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

member

> to

> > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

> was

> > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> signing

> > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

probation

> > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

> the

> > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> Supreme

> > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > Establishment Clause.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

Hi,

My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the signatures

were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

invented.

[Guest guest]

> > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

attend

> AA

> > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

> the

> > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> period

> > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

> has

> > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > Joan

> >

> > Joan,

> >

> > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

member

> to

> > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

> was

> > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> signing

> > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

probation

> > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

> the

> > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> Supreme

> > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > Establishment Clause.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

Hi,

My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the signatures

were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

invented.

[Guest guest]

-

After all, one is an alcoholic if one says one is an alcoholic. And, you're

a member of AA if you say you are. And, 'anytime two or more are gathered

together' you have established a group and thus a meeting. So, playing cards

and talking about and drinking beer and signing the court's slips sounds

totally legitimate to me. Sounds exactly like an AA meeting to me. Just say

Amen at the end and don't count your winnings til you get home.

Right on!

>From: ahicks@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Tommy or anyone: Court Ordered AA

>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:46:01 -0000

>

>

> > > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

>attend

> > AA

> > > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

> > the

> > > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> > period

> > > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

> > has

> > > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > > Joan

> > >

> > > Joan,

> > >

> > > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

>member

> > to

> > > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

> > was

> > > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> > signing

> > > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

>probation

> > > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> > > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

> > the

> > > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> > Supreme

> > > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > > Establishment Clause.

> > >

> > > Tommy

> >

> > Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> > verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> > Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> > this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> > meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

>needing

> > the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> > person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> > would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> > they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

>know

> > if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> > measure in place to prevent it.

> > Joan

>

>Hi,

>

>My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

>over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

>before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the signatures

>were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

>invented.

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

-

After all, one is an alcoholic if one says one is an alcoholic. And, you're

a member of AA if you say you are. And, 'anytime two or more are gathered

together' you have established a group and thus a meeting. So, playing cards

and talking about and drinking beer and signing the court's slips sounds

totally legitimate to me. Sounds exactly like an AA meeting to me. Just say

Amen at the end and don't count your winnings til you get home.

Right on!

>From: ahicks@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Tommy or anyone: Court Ordered AA

>Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2001 00:46:01 -0000

>

>

> > > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

>attend

> > AA

> > > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been to

> > the

> > > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> > period

> > > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court order

> > has

> > > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > > Joan

> > >

> > > Joan,

> > >

> > > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

>member

> > to

> > > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command. I

> > was

> > > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> > signing

> > > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

>probation

> > > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in attendance. I

> > > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this compromised

> > the

> > > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> > Supreme

> > > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > > Establishment Clause.

> > >

> > > Tommy

> >

> > Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> > verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> > Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> > this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> > meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

>needing

> > the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> > person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> > would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> > they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

>know

> > if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> > measure in place to prevent it.

> > Joan

>

>Hi,

>

>My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

>over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

>before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the signatures

>were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

>invented.

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

> -

>

> After all, one is an alcoholic if one says one is an alcoholic. And,

you're

> a member of AA if you say you are. And, 'anytime two or more are

gathered

> together' you have established a group and thus a meeting. So,

playing cards

> and talking about and drinking beer and signing the court's slips

sounds

> totally legitimate to me. Sounds exactly like an AA meeting to me.

Just say

> Amen at the end and don't count your winnings til you get home.

>

> Right on!

>

>

,

You made my day!!! Hehehehe!

See you,

[Guest guest]

> -

>

> After all, one is an alcoholic if one says one is an alcoholic. And,

you're

> a member of AA if you say you are. And, 'anytime two or more are

gathered

> together' you have established a group and thus a meeting. So,

playing cards

> and talking about and drinking beer and signing the court's slips

sounds

> totally legitimate to me. Sounds exactly like an AA meeting to me.

Just say

> Amen at the end and don't count your winnings til you get home.

>

> Right on!

>

>

,

You made my day!!! Hehehehe!

See you,

[Guest guest]

> -

>

> After all, one is an alcoholic if one says one is an alcoholic. And,

you're

> a member of AA if you say you are. And, 'anytime two or more are

gathered

> together' you have established a group and thus a meeting. So,

playing cards

> and talking about and drinking beer and signing the court's slips

sounds

> totally legitimate to me. Sounds exactly like an AA meeting to me.

Just say

> Amen at the end and don't count your winnings til you get home.

>

> Right on!

>

>

,

You made my day!!! Hehehehe!

See you,

[Guest guest]

I guess things differ depending on where you live. I never saw a slip

that had a phone number on it, nor have I ever seen anyone sign

his/her full name. I have however been to meetings where it was

announced that only the chair would sign and not until after the

meeting. The power trip that you mention. But that was the

exception, not the rule.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

[Guest guest]

I guess things differ depending on where you live. I never saw a slip

that had a phone number on it, nor have I ever seen anyone sign

his/her full name. I have however been to meetings where it was

announced that only the chair would sign and not until after the

meeting. The power trip that you mention. But that was the

exception, not the rule.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

[Guest guest]

I guess things differ depending on where you live. I never saw a slip

that had a phone number on it, nor have I ever seen anyone sign

his/her full name. I have however been to meetings where it was

announced that only the chair would sign and not until after the

meeting. The power trip that you mention. But that was the

exception, not the rule.

> >

> > Tommy

>

> Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court can

> verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the room?

> Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard of

> this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in the AA

> meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

needing

> the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over the

> person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip, it

> would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position, say, if

> they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

know

> if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had some

> measure in place to prevent it.

> Joan

[Guest guest]

I have to agree. After all, they never say you can't drink at a

meeting, only that you have the desire to stop.... ;-)

> > > > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

> >attend

> > > AA

> > > > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been

to

> > > the

> > > > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> > > period

> > > > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court

order

> > > has

> > > > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > > > Joan

> > > >

> > > > Joan,

> > > >

> > > > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

> >member

> > > to

> > > > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command.

I

> > > was

> > > > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> > > signing

> > > > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

> >probation

> > > > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in

attendance. I

> > > > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this

compromised

> > > the

> > > > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > > > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> > > Supreme

> > > > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > > > Establishment Clause.

> > > >

> > > > Tommy

> > >

> > > Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court

can

> > > verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the

room?

> > > Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard

of

> > > this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in

the AA

> > > meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

> >needing

> > > the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over

the

> > > person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip,

it

> > > would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position,

say, if

> > > they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

> >know

> > > if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had

some

> > > measure in place to prevent it.

> > > Joan

> >

> >Hi,

> >

> >My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

> >over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

> >before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the

signatures

> >were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

> >invented.

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

I have to agree. After all, they never say you can't drink at a

meeting, only that you have the desire to stop.... ;-)

> > > > > I'm just curious. When a person is ordered by the court to

> >attend

> > > AA

> > > > > meetings, how do they document that the individual has been

to

> > > the

> > > > > meetings? Is there usually a set number of meetings or time

> > > period

> > > > > that the person has to attend? Who verifies that the court

order

> > > has

> > > > > been satisfied, and how does this affect anonymity?

> > > > > Joan

> > > >

> > > > Joan,

> > > >

> > > > When I was ordered to attend AA I was required to get any AA

> >member

> > > to

> > > > sign an attendence slip which I had to turn in to the command.

I

> > > was

> > > > ordered to attend three meetings a week. I believe the slip

> > > signing

> > > > is standard even for the courts, although I have heard of

> >probation

> > > > officers showing up to see if those ordered were in

attendance. I

> > > > emphasized in my complaint in federal court that this

compromised

> > > the

> > > > anonymity of the AA member and cited it as a violation of the

> > > > " excessive entanglement " prong of the " Lemon Test " , a test the

> > > Supreme

> > > > Court uses to determine whether there is a violation of the

> > > > Establishment Clause.

> > > >

> > > > Tommy

> > >

> > > Does it have to be a certain AA member, say, one that the court

can

> > > verify as being a member, or can it be just any person in the

room?

> > > Could the AA person just refuse to sign, or have you ever heard

of

> > > this happening? It just seems to me that Joe S. or whoever in

the AA

> > > meeting could potentially have a lot of power over the person

> >needing

> > > the signature. If the court doesn't have any supervision over

the

> > > person or people with the authority to sign the attendance slip,

it

> > > would be fairly easy for AA members to abuse their position,

say, if

> > > they wanted someone to " keep coming back " . I was just curious to

> >know

> > > if anyone had ever heard of this happening or if the court had

some

> > > measure in place to prevent it.

> > > Joan

> >

> >Hi,

> >

> >My neighbor had been court-ordered to get signatures and he'd come

> >over and we'd play cards, drink beers and sign AA slips (this was

> >before my involvement with them). He was never caught, the

signatures

> >were never verified. A more useless piece of paper has yet to be

> >invented.

> >

> >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com