Re: Lois reveres 's grave?

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to time.

Im curious though about Bill , I have quite a few questions? One, did

he have affairs on Lois? Did he make money off AA. How accurate is the

book Pass it on. How would you describe his character? Was he a nice guy.

What about Doctor Bob? How effective is AA compared to other recovery

programs?

Thanks, all who know any of this info please get back.

>From: watts_pete@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Lois reveres 's grave?

>Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:23:01 -0000

>

>I have uploaded this rare pic of Lois to the file area. However,

>commentators believe that the person in it is too young to be Lois,

>and is actually a mistress of Bill's who went unmentioned in his will

>and missed out on the BB royalties. Other suggested identities are an

>early Margaret Thatcher (note the features could easily be a youthful

>Thatcher), or maybe, an early Ayn Rand?

>

>P.

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I went to the file to see the pic and was informed that I'm not a member of

12 Step Free! So like, why do I get the postings? :-)

Sight unseen, I can't imagine that Ayn Rand would ever visit 's

grave. He stood for everything she opposed. Bill was such a philanderer it

could have been just about anyone.

BTW, I've been curious about one aspect of AA history that AA never seems to

cover. Both Bill and Dr. Bob seemed to have quite a bit of money...where did

it come from? I doubt it was strictly BB royalties. Does anyone know of a

source for the dark side of AA history, on or off line? Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Pete,

I went to the file to see the pic and was informed that I'm not a member of

12 Step Free! So like, why do I get the postings? :-)

Sight unseen, I can't imagine that Ayn Rand would ever visit 's

grave. He stood for everything she opposed. Bill was such a philanderer it

could have been just about anyone.

BTW, I've been curious about one aspect of AA history that AA never seems to

cover. Both Bill and Dr. Bob seemed to have quite a bit of money...where did

it come from? I doubt it was strictly BB royalties. Does anyone know of a

source for the dark side of AA history, on or off line? Thanks.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

> Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to

>time.

You mean you did the same thing as 'Lois' in the picture?????

Seriously,

There are some good AA scholars out there who I am sure will give you

better answers than I can, but you could say they were basically nice

but pretty fucked up guys. made ppl go down on their knees and

surrender to God before they joined AA. Apart from his infidelities,

had an amazing gift for what I think the " Children of God " cult

called " heavenly deception " . He wrote the " Two Wives " chapter

pretending to be the wife of an alcoholic, to Lois's understandable

outrage, who was far better qualified to write it. Quite apart from

the semtiments expressed in it, that this deception should be used is

the finest demonstration of pious hypocrisy. The only thing to

compare with it is OA's use of the " Acceptance " paragraph rewritten to

be by an overeater whn the original author derided OA as " Fatties

Anonymous " .

P.

[Guest guest]

> Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to

>time.

You mean you did the same thing as 'Lois' in the picture?????

Seriously,

There are some good AA scholars out there who I am sure will give you

better answers than I can, but you could say they were basically nice

but pretty fucked up guys. made ppl go down on their knees and

surrender to God before they joined AA. Apart from his infidelities,

had an amazing gift for what I think the " Children of God " cult

called " heavenly deception " . He wrote the " Two Wives " chapter

pretending to be the wife of an alcoholic, to Lois's understandable

outrage, who was far better qualified to write it. Quite apart from

the semtiments expressed in it, that this deception should be used is

the finest demonstration of pious hypocrisy. The only thing to

compare with it is OA's use of the " Acceptance " paragraph rewritten to

be by an overeater whn the original author derided OA as " Fatties

Anonymous " .

P.

[Guest guest]

> Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to

>time.

You mean you did the same thing as 'Lois' in the picture?????

Seriously,

There are some good AA scholars out there who I am sure will give you

better answers than I can, but you could say they were basically nice

but pretty fucked up guys. made ppl go down on their knees and

surrender to God before they joined AA. Apart from his infidelities,

had an amazing gift for what I think the " Children of God " cult

called " heavenly deception " . He wrote the " Two Wives " chapter

pretending to be the wife of an alcoholic, to Lois's understandable

outrage, who was far better qualified to write it. Quite apart from

the semtiments expressed in it, that this deception should be used is

the finest demonstration of pious hypocrisy. The only thing to

compare with it is OA's use of the " Acceptance " paragraph rewritten to

be by an overeater whn the original author derided OA as " Fatties

Anonymous " .

P.

[Guest guest]

-Hi yes to both questions. He made money on the big book.

Athough 20 of so people wrote it he was the only one to get part of

the royalties. infact one of his wifes relations still gets a part of

them. He had at least one mistress. She was in his will and she got

part of the big book roylties after his death.

Check out deprogramming from AA I think I found a link there that

lead me to a copy of Bill's will

good hunting

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " Graham " <jennifer_201@h...> wrote:

> Hello,

>

> Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to

time.

>

> Im curious though about Bill , I have quite a few questions?

One, did

> he have affairs on Lois? Did he make money off AA. How accurate

is the

> book Pass it on. How would you describe his character? Was he a

nice guy.

> What about Doctor Bob? How effective is AA compared to other

recovery

> programs?

>

> Thanks, all who know any of this info please get back.

>

>

> >From: watts_pete@h...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y...

> >To: 12-step-free@y...

> >Subject: Lois reveres 's grave?

> >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:23:01 -0000

> >

> >I have uploaded this rare pic of Lois to the file area. However,

> >commentators believe that the person in it is too young to be Lois,

> >and is actually a mistress of Bill's who went unmentioned in his

will

> >and missed out on the BB royalties. Other suggested identities

are an

> >early Margaret Thatcher (note the features could easily be a

youthful

> >Thatcher), or maybe, an early Ayn Rand?

> >

> >P.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

-Hi yes to both questions. He made money on the big book.

Athough 20 of so people wrote it he was the only one to get part of

the royalties. infact one of his wifes relations still gets a part of

them. He had at least one mistress. She was in his will and she got

part of the big book roylties after his death.

Check out deprogramming from AA I think I found a link there that

lead me to a copy of Bill's will

good hunting

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " Graham " <jennifer_201@h...> wrote:

> Hello,

>

> Its I did this awhile back and havent been on it due to

time.

>

> Im curious though about Bill , I have quite a few questions?

One, did

> he have affairs on Lois? Did he make money off AA. How accurate

is the

> book Pass it on. How would you describe his character? Was he a

nice guy.

> What about Doctor Bob? How effective is AA compared to other

recovery

> programs?

>

> Thanks, all who know any of this info please get back.

>

>

> >From: watts_pete@h...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y...

> >To: 12-step-free@y...

> >Subject: Lois reveres 's grave?

> >Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 01:23:01 -0000

> >

> >I have uploaded this rare pic of Lois to the file area. However,

> >commentators believe that the person in it is too young to be Lois,

> >and is actually a mistress of Bill's who went unmentioned in his

will

> >and missed out on the BB royalties. Other suggested identities

are an

> >early Margaret Thatcher (note the features could easily be a

youthful

> >Thatcher), or maybe, an early Ayn Rand?

> >

> >P.

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

> I went to the file to see the pic and was informed that I'm not a

member of

> 12 Step Free! So like, why do I get the postings? :-)

> Sight unseen, I can't imagine that Ayn Rand would ever visit

's

> grave. He stood for everything she opposed.

Well try " joining " 12sf and take a look at that pic and you'll see

why it could be her... Fwiw, my step nazi rehab-running sponsor was a

thru and thru Randite; apart from atheism, which my sponsor also

claimed to endorse, imo Rand and steppism actualy fit together quite

nicely.

Chaz and others have the lowdown on Wislon and finances, I

understand.

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

> I went to the file to see the pic and was informed that I'm not a

member of

> 12 Step Free! So like, why do I get the postings? :-)

> Sight unseen, I can't imagine that Ayn Rand would ever visit

's

> grave. He stood for everything she opposed.

Well try " joining " 12sf and take a look at that pic and you'll see

why it could be her... Fwiw, my step nazi rehab-running sponsor was a

thru and thru Randite; apart from atheism, which my sponsor also

claimed to endorse, imo Rand and steppism actualy fit together quite

nicely.

Chaz and others have the lowdown on Wislon and finances, I

understand.

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

> I went to the file to see the pic and was informed that I'm not a

member of

> 12 Step Free! So like, why do I get the postings? :-)

> Sight unseen, I can't imagine that Ayn Rand would ever visit

's

> grave. He stood for everything she opposed.

Well try " joining " 12sf and take a look at that pic and you'll see

why it could be her... Fwiw, my step nazi rehab-running sponsor was a

thru and thru Randite; apart from atheism, which my sponsor also

claimed to endorse, imo Rand and steppism actualy fit together quite

nicely.

Chaz and others have the lowdown on Wislon and finances, I

understand.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, Ayn Rand and 12 stepism have nothing in common. Ayn Rand abhored

mysticism, denial of self, group-think (the mob as she called it) and I

infer the " disease " concept in so much as one sincerely " believes " it, as an

evasion of reality...a psychoepistemolgical error, that one eventually pays

for

Sincerely,

Ray...12-step free Objectivist

[Guest guest]

Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret Thatcher say there is no society/community?

Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market price....neatly packaged for sale....

strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

???

Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

-----Original Message-----From: Rwin@... Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2001 1:01 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: Lois reveres 's grave?Sorry, Ayn Rand and 12 stepism have nothing in common. Ayn Rand abhored mysticism, denial of self, group-think (the mob as she called it) and I infer the "disease" concept in so much as one sincerely "believes" it, as an evasion of reality...a psychoepistemolgical error, that one eventually pays forSincerely,Ray...12-step free Objectivist

[Guest guest]

Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret Thatcher say there is no society/community?

Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market price....neatly packaged for sale....

strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

???

Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

-----Original Message-----From: Rwin@... Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2001 1:01 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: Lois reveres 's grave?Sorry, Ayn Rand and 12 stepism have nothing in common. Ayn Rand abhored mysticism, denial of self, group-think (the mob as she called it) and I infer the "disease" concept in so much as one sincerely "believes" it, as an evasion of reality...a psychoepistemolgical error, that one eventually pays forSincerely,Ray...12-step free Objectivist

[Guest guest]

Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret Thatcher say there is no society/community?

Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market price....neatly packaged for sale....

strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

???

Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

-----Original Message-----From: Rwin@... Sent: Thursday, 5 April 2001 1:01 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: Re: Lois reveres 's grave?Sorry, Ayn Rand and 12 stepism have nothing in common. Ayn Rand abhored mysticism, denial of self, group-think (the mob as she called it) and I infer the "disease" concept in so much as one sincerely "believes" it, as an evasion of reality...a psychoepistemolgical error, that one eventually pays forSincerely,Ray...12-step free Objectivist

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but apologizing when expressing a view is patronizing. If

youre right youve nothing to be sorry for and if youre wrong I

forgive you.

My 1st XA was prototypical XA: totally committed to disease model,

traditions, steps, talked about having to go on ones knees before God

etc.,he even runs a 12-step rehab - and calls himself an atheist and

is totally an Ayn Rand disciple. He has no problem squaring the

circle at all. Given that XA's are pretty good at getting over the

atheism problem while staying in AA these days, I think the

philosophies actually have a fair bit in common. Rand's lover and

former heir apparent iel Branden now comments that he never knew

anyone use the word " evil " as much as Rand, and that she was

exceedingly moralistic.

P.

> Sorry, Ayn Rand and 12 stepism have nothing in common. Ayn Rand

abhored

> mysticism, denial of self, group-think (the mob as she called it)

and I

> infer the " disease " concept in so much as one sincerely " believes "

it, as an

> evasion of reality...a psychoepistemolgical error, that one

eventually pays

> for

>

> Sincerely,

> Ray...12-step free Objectivist

[Guest guest]

> Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret

Thatcher

> say there is no society/community?

>

> Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market

> price....neatly packaged for sale....

> strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

> ???

> Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

>

Dont get me going on that one!

P.

[Guest guest]

> Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret

Thatcher

> say there is no society/community?

>

> Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market

> price....neatly packaged for sale....

> strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

> ???

> Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

>

Dont get me going on that one!

P.

[Guest guest]

> Ah dear Ayn...Back to the trickle down effect... Didn't Margaret

Thatcher

> say there is no society/community?

>

> Only me versus you.....Perfect little units.... available at market

> price....neatly packaged for sale....

> strangely alike in our competing, corporatised individualism.

> ???

> Small wonder everyone is depressed, mad or out of it.

>

Dont get me going on that one!

P.

[Guest guest]

Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I just don't

write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and struggling, I had

a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your AA

allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is the

operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or discredit for

both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's that old

statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be judged " , she

called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be prepared

to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me

Ray

[Guest guest]

Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I just don't

write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and struggling, I had

a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your AA

allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is the

operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or discredit for

both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's that old

statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be judged " , she

called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be prepared

to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me

Ray

[Guest guest]

Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I just don't

write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and struggling, I had

a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your AA

allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is the

operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or discredit for

both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's that old

statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be judged " , she

called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be prepared

to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me

Ray

[Guest guest]

Hello Ray

My XA poncer ( more accurate than sponsor - they ponce off your

vulnerability and live your life vicariously) came out with exactly

the same Rand idea and thought it totally consistent with 12 step

philosophy. Steppism is moralism writ large - all those defects of

character, wrongs to be admitted and amends made. Rand is a moralist

too. Steppism is largely drawn from the authoritarian school of

Xtianity, not the unconditional loving one. To me, her facile reposte

just indicates she doesnt understand what the Xtian notions of

forgiveness and yes - humility - are about.

P.

> Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I

just don't

> write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and

struggling, I had

> a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your

AA

> allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is

the

> operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or

discredit for

> both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's

that old

> statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be

judged " , she

> called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be

prepared

> to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me

[Guest guest]

Hello Ray

My XA poncer ( more accurate than sponsor - they ponce off your

vulnerability and live your life vicariously) came out with exactly

the same Rand idea and thought it totally consistent with 12 step

philosophy. Steppism is moralism writ large - all those defects of

character, wrongs to be admitted and amends made. Rand is a moralist

too. Steppism is largely drawn from the authoritarian school of

Xtianity, not the unconditional loving one. To me, her facile reposte

just indicates she doesnt understand what the Xtian notions of

forgiveness and yes - humility - are about.

P.

> Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I

just don't

> write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and

struggling, I had

> a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your

AA

> allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is

the

> operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or

discredit for

> both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's

that old

> statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be

judged " , she

> called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be

prepared

> to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me

[Guest guest]

Hello Ray

My XA poncer ( more accurate than sponsor - they ponce off your

vulnerability and live your life vicariously) came out with exactly

the same Rand idea and thought it totally consistent with 12 step

philosophy. Steppism is moralism writ large - all those defects of

character, wrongs to be admitted and amends made. Rand is a moralist

too. Steppism is largely drawn from the authoritarian school of

Xtianity, not the unconditional loving one. To me, her facile reposte

just indicates she doesnt understand what the Xtian notions of

forgiveness and yes - humility - are about.

P.

> Sorry again...didn't mean to patronize or even sound that way, I

just don't

> write that well. But,w hen I was out there and in AA, and

struggling, I had

> a shrink who asked me " how you reconcile your objectivism with your

AA

> allegiance? " ...I couldn't. I tried though. In Rand's world, " I " is

the

> operative word in terms of behavior, misbehavior, credit or

discredit for

> both. She wasn't big on humility and was big on pride. There's

that old

> statement, biblical in origin I think, " judge not that ye not be

judged " , she

> called this a moral blank check saying as a correction " judge and be

prepared

> to be judged " ...don't sound too 12 step to me