Re: Entrance Exam for EMS Courses

December 19, 2004

All of those things also existed way back in the

good old days.

Maxine Pate

---- Original message ----

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

>

> Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened.

Budgets

> happened. Taxes happened.

> Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

> conservatives happened. Politics

> happened. Etc.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

December 19, 2004

Isn't it interesting. The more government gets

involved in our lives, the less productive we are.

Maxine Pate

---- Original message ----

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 22:49:47 GMT

From: " Larry " lanelson1@...

> Dr. Spock, Social promotions, and the coup de

grace,

> the Department of Education- another Federal

> boondoggle meant to 'help' us.

>

December 19, 2004

Isn't it interesting. The more government gets

involved in our lives, the less productive we are.

Maxine Pate

---- Original message ----

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 22:49:47 GMT

From: " Larry " lanelson1@...

> Dr. Spock, Social promotions, and the coup de

grace,

> the Department of Education- another Federal

> boondoggle meant to 'help' us.

>

December 19, 2004

Isn't it interesting. The more government gets

involved in our lives, the less productive we are.

Maxine Pate

---- Original message ----

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2004 22:49:47 GMT

From: " Larry " lanelson1@...

> Dr. Spock, Social promotions, and the coup de

grace,

> the Department of Education- another Federal

> boondoggle meant to 'help' us.

>

December 19, 2004

Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test, if

any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where would I

find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have taught

under in the past relied on the student having a HS

diploma or GED]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

" D.E. $Donn$ " wrote:

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>> There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence

>> enough that the holder possessed the simple skills of

>> reading, writing, and basic math. What happened?

>

> Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>happened. Taxes happened.

>Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal conservatives

>happened. Politics

> happened. Etc.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity

>of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 19, 2004

Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test, if

any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where would I

find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have taught

under in the past relied on the student having a HS

diploma or GED]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

" D.E. $Donn$ " wrote:

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>> There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence

>> enough that the holder possessed the simple skills of

>> reading, writing, and basic math. What happened?

>

> Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>happened. Taxes happened.

>Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal conservatives

>happened. Politics

> happened. Etc.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity

>of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 19, 2004

Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test, if

any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where would I

find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have taught

under in the past relied on the student having a HS

diploma or GED]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

" D.E. $Donn$ " wrote:

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>> There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence

>> enough that the holder possessed the simple skills of

>> reading, writing, and basic math. What happened?

>

> Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>happened. Taxes happened.

>Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal conservatives

>happened. Politics

> happened. Etc.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity

>of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 20, 2004

We use a comprehensive basic evaluation test. I will

forward the name in a later post.

--- Myron Schmiedekarp wrote:

>

> Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test,

> if

> any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where

> would I

> find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have

> taught

> under in the past relied on the student having a HS

> diploma or GED]

>

> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

> " D.E. $Donn$ "

> wrote:

> >

> > wegandy1938@...

> wrote:

> >

> >> There was a time when a high school diploma was

> evidence

> >> enough that the holder possessed the simple

> skills of

> >> reading, writing, and basic math. What

> happened?

> >

> > Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

> >happened. Taxes happened.

> >Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

> conservatives

> >happened. Politics

> > happened. Etc.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Donn

> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

> >

> > " Education seems to be in America the only

> commodity

> >of which the

> > customer tries to get as little he can for his

> money. "

> > ~~ Max Forman ~~

> >

> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> > www.EMStock.com

> > May 20-22 2005

> >

December 20, 2004

We use a comprehensive basic evaluation test. I will

forward the name in a later post.

--- Myron Schmiedekarp wrote:

>

> Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test,

> if

> any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where

> would I

> find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have

> taught

> under in the past relied on the student having a HS

> diploma or GED]

>

> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

> " D.E. $Donn$ "

> wrote:

> >

> > wegandy1938@...

> wrote:

> >

> >> There was a time when a high school diploma was

> evidence

> >> enough that the holder possessed the simple

> skills of

> >> reading, writing, and basic math. What

> happened?

> >

> > Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

> >happened. Taxes happened.

> >Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

> conservatives

> >happened. Politics

> > happened. Etc.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Donn

> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

> >

> > " Education seems to be in America the only

> commodity

> >of which the

> > customer tries to get as little he can for his

> money. "

> > ~~ Max Forman ~~

> >

> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> > www.EMStock.com

> > May 20-22 2005

> >

December 20, 2004

Myron, we have been using the Test of Adult Basic Education (TABE) locator

test for several years. It's simple to administer and was designed for

adults. It was designed to be used in adult education programs where

remediation is provided to adults who have basic skills deficiencies.

Kay

Hill Country EMS Training

City, TX

Re: Entrance Exam for EMS Courses

Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test, if

any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where would I

find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have taught

under in the past relied on the student having a HS

diploma or GED]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

" D.E. $Donn$ " wrote:

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>> There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence

>> enough that the holder possessed the simple skills of

>> reading, writing, and basic math. What happened?

>

> Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>happened. Taxes happened.

>Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal conservatives

>happened. Politics

> happened. Etc.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Education seems to be in America the only commodity

>of which the

> customer tries to get as little he can for his money. "

> ~~ Max Forman ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 20, 2004

I have several family members who are school teachers. In conversations

with them I was told that their school administrators (supers and

prinipals) have instructed them that at least 70% of their students must

pass, regardless of their actual grade. This is the problem we all are

facing when we try and teach a class.

I heard a couple of years ago that 51$ of the College freshmen in

California were required to take remedial reading and math courses to be

able to complete their college courses. The kicker was that the

majority of those students were honors students when they graduated from

High School.

BH

Re: Entrance Exam for EMS Courses

There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence enough that the

holder possessed the simple skills of reading, writing, and basic math.

What happened?

GG

>

> Berry Ingram wrote:

>

> > The recommendation was for an evaluation of simple skills (or maybe

> > not so simple) such as reading, writing, and basic math. I was

> > questioning the list in hopes of finding something that works

> > without having to 'pad the pockets' of the regulatory agencies.

>

> It seems every new suggestion or requirement sets us up for an

> onslaught

of

> new " business opportunities " and a chance for the entrepreneurs

> amongst us to fleece the flock. Still, I see the need for some kind of

> pre-qualification and applaud the intent of the site visitors.

> Hopefully

you

> are hear for someone with a good suggestion. It will be interesting to

> see what kind of answers you get.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Part of the American myth is that people who are handed the skin

> of

a

> dead sheep at graduating time think that it will keep their minds

> alive forever. "

> ~~ Mason Brown ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 20, 2004

I have several family members who are school teachers. In conversations

with them I was told that their school administrators (supers and

prinipals) have instructed them that at least 70% of their students must

pass, regardless of their actual grade. This is the problem we all are

facing when we try and teach a class.

I heard a couple of years ago that 51$ of the College freshmen in

California were required to take remedial reading and math courses to be

able to complete their college courses. The kicker was that the

majority of those students were honors students when they graduated from

High School.

BH

Re: Entrance Exam for EMS Courses

There was a time when a high school diploma was evidence enough that the

holder possessed the simple skills of reading, writing, and basic math.

What happened?

GG

>

> Berry Ingram wrote:

>

> > The recommendation was for an evaluation of simple skills (or maybe

> > not so simple) such as reading, writing, and basic math. I was

> > questioning the list in hopes of finding something that works

> > without having to 'pad the pockets' of the regulatory agencies.

>

> It seems every new suggestion or requirement sets us up for an

> onslaught

of

> new " business opportunities " and a chance for the entrepreneurs

> amongst us to fleece the flock. Still, I see the need for some kind of

> pre-qualification and applaud the intent of the site visitors.

> Hopefully

you

> are hear for someone with a good suggestion. It will be interesting to

> see what kind of answers you get.

>

> Regards,

> Donn

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>

> " Part of the American myth is that people who are handed the skin

> of

a

> dead sheep at graduating time think that it will keep their minds

> alive forever. "

> ~~ Mason Brown ~~

>

> Don't Miss EMStock 2005

> www.EMStock.com

> May 20-22 2005

>

December 20, 2004

Thanks, Wayne and Kay, this is a great help. Myron,SAEC

Coord.,San Angelo, Tx.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:05:13 -0800 (PST)

Wayne Edgin wrote:

>

> We use a comprehensive basic evaluation test. I will

> forward the name in a later post.

> --- Myron Schmiedekarp wrote:

>

>>

>> Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test,

>> if

>> any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where

>> would I

>> find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have

>> taught

>> under in the past relied on the student having a HS

>> diploma or GED]

>>

>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

>> " D.E. $Donn$ "

>> wrote:

>> >

>> > wegandy1938@...

>> wrote:

>> >

>> >> There was a time when a high school diploma was

>> evidence

>> >> enough that the holder possessed the simple

>> skills of

>> >> reading, writing, and basic math. What

>> happened?

>> >

>> > Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>> >happened. Taxes happened.

>> >Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

>> conservatives

>> >happened. Politics

>> > happened. Etc.

>> >

>> > Regards,

>> > Donn

>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>> >

>> > " Education seems to be in America the only

>> commodity

>> >of which the

>> > customer tries to get as little he can for his

>> money. "

>> > ~~ Max Forman ~~

>> >

>> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005

>> > www.EMStock.com

>> > May 20-22 2005

>> >

December 20, 2004

Thanks, Wayne and Kay, this is a great help. Myron,SAEC

Coord.,San Angelo, Tx.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:05:13 -0800 (PST)

Wayne Edgin wrote:

>

> We use a comprehensive basic evaluation test. I will

> forward the name in a later post.

> --- Myron Schmiedekarp wrote:

>

>>

>> Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test,

>> if

>> any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where

>> would I

>> find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have

>> taught

>> under in the past relied on the student having a HS

>> diploma or GED]

>>

>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

>> " D.E. $Donn$ "

>> wrote:

>> >

>> > wegandy1938@...

>> wrote:

>> >

>> >> There was a time when a high school diploma was

>> evidence

>> >> enough that the holder possessed the simple

>> skills of

>> >> reading, writing, and basic math. What

>> happened?

>> >

>> > Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>> >happened. Taxes happened.

>> >Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

>> conservatives

>> >happened. Politics

>> > happened. Etc.

>> >

>> > Regards,

>> > Donn

>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>> >

>> > " Education seems to be in America the only

>> commodity

>> >of which the

>> > customer tries to get as little he can for his

>> money. "

>> > ~~ Max Forman ~~

>> >

>> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005

>> > www.EMStock.com

>> > May 20-22 2005

>> >

December 20, 2004

Thanks, Wayne and Kay, this is a great help. Myron,SAEC

Coord.,San Angelo, Tx.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 05:05:13 -0800 (PST)

Wayne Edgin wrote:

>

> We use a comprehensive basic evaluation test. I will

> forward the name in a later post.

> --- Myron Schmiedekarp wrote:

>

>>

>> Ok, as a new coordinator let me ask this. What test,

>> if

>> any do you give to a class of EMT-B's? and where

>> would I

>> find a copy of this test? [the coordinators I have

>> taught

>> under in the past relied on the student having a HS

>> diploma or GED]

>>

>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:55:13 -0600

>> " D.E. $Donn$ "

>> wrote:

>> >

>> > wegandy1938@...

>> wrote:

>> >

>> >> There was a time when a high school diploma was

>> evidence

>> >> enough that the holder possessed the simple

>> skills of

>> >> reading, writing, and basic math. What

>> happened?

>> >

>> > Overpopulation happened. Apathy happened. Budgets

>> >happened. Taxes happened.

>> >Football happened. Unions happened. Fiscal

>> conservatives

>> >happened. Politics

>> > happened. Etc.

>> >

>> > Regards,

>> > Donn

>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P

>> >

>> > " Education seems to be in America the only

>> commodity

>> >of which the

>> > customer tries to get as little he can for his

>> money. "

>> > ~~ Max Forman ~~

>> >

>> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005

>> > www.EMStock.com

>> > May 20-22 2005

>> >

December 20, 2004

I'm going to put my neck out on this, but does anyone else see the irony

here? In the past couple of weeks, we've been howling like a burned puppy

about the college requirements of the national SoC and now we're complaining

that kids who are coming into the field straight from high school can't do

basic English or math.

We want students/medics who are academically competent so they can

understand, digest and apply the materials taught, but we don't want to

raise the academic bar for entrance. So we either maintain the status qou

and put a lot of remedial work into the courses so that our students can

learn or we raise the bar so that we get more selective in who gets into the

classes (hopefully students who can learn material without having to learn

how to learn first).

Thus the question becomes, do we re-engineer our training programs so that

they are basically a vocation program with all the remedial education so

that our students can learn to write, read and do math to EMS standards or

do we link into higher education where those institutions, by their very

nature, should create (or weed out) students who can read, write and think?

Either way is not necessarily all good or all bad, but you have to be

willing to live with the consequences of the decision.

Barry S.

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

December 20, 2004

I'm going to put my neck out on this, but does anyone else see the irony

here? In the past couple of weeks, we've been howling like a burned puppy

about the college requirements of the national SoC and now we're complaining

that kids who are coming into the field straight from high school can't do

basic English or math.

We want students/medics who are academically competent so they can

understand, digest and apply the materials taught, but we don't want to

raise the academic bar for entrance. So we either maintain the status qou

and put a lot of remedial work into the courses so that our students can

learn or we raise the bar so that we get more selective in who gets into the

classes (hopefully students who can learn material without having to learn

how to learn first).

Thus the question becomes, do we re-engineer our training programs so that

they are basically a vocation program with all the remedial education so

that our students can learn to write, read and do math to EMS standards or

do we link into higher education where those institutions, by their very

nature, should create (or weed out) students who can read, write and think?

Either way is not necessarily all good or all bad, but you have to be

willing to live with the consequences of the decision.

Barry S.

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

December 20, 2004

I'm going to put my neck out on this, but does anyone else see the irony

here? In the past couple of weeks, we've been howling like a burned puppy

about the college requirements of the national SoC and now we're complaining

that kids who are coming into the field straight from high school can't do

basic English or math.

We want students/medics who are academically competent so they can

understand, digest and apply the materials taught, but we don't want to

raise the academic bar for entrance. So we either maintain the status qou

and put a lot of remedial work into the courses so that our students can

learn or we raise the bar so that we get more selective in who gets into the

classes (hopefully students who can learn material without having to learn

how to learn first).

Thus the question becomes, do we re-engineer our training programs so that

they are basically a vocation program with all the remedial education so

that our students can learn to write, read and do math to EMS standards or

do we link into higher education where those institutions, by their very

nature, should create (or weed out) students who can read, write and think?

Either way is not necessarily all good or all bad, but you have to be

willing to live with the consequences of the decision.

Barry S.

NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with other agencies

and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services (DSHS),

resulting in the following e-mail address format change for all employees:

firstname.lastname@....

December 20, 2004

The other side of the coin: Why are we graduating students from

our EMS programs with these same poor writing, reading, and math

skills? We decry the lack of skills in our incoming students,

and we discuss ways to pre-qualify them. BUT, given the state

of the profession today as regards these basic life skills (and

EMS folks don't seem to be any better than the general public

in these areas), why are we passing these students? Seems that

a pre-qualifying exam will keep poor students from getting in,

but what are we doing to see that they don't get OUT wihout these

same skills? Are we testing the right things on the back end?

Or does the whole process ignore these skills, to be visited

on our patients and the medical (and legal) communities)?

=Steve , LP=

Steve , LP

AlertCPR Emergency Training

2300 Highland Village Rd, Suite 340

Highland Village, TX 75077

>--- Original Message ---

>

>To: " ' ' " < >

>Date: 12/20/04 9:04:14 AM

>

>I'm going to put my neck out on this, but does anyone else see

the irony

>here? In the past couple of weeks, we've been howling like a

burned puppy

>about the college requirements of the national SoC and now we're

complaining

>that kids who are coming into the field straight from high school

can't do

>basic English or math.

>

>We want students/medics who are academically competent so they

can

>understand, digest and apply the materials taught, but we don't

want to

>raise the academic bar for entrance. So we either maintain the

status qou

>and put a lot of remedial work into the courses so that our

students can

>learn or we raise the bar so that we get more selective in who

gets into the

>classes (hopefully students who can learn material without having

to learn

>how to learn first).

>

>Thus the question becomes, do we re-engineer our training programs

so that

>they are basically a vocation program with all the remedial

education so

>that our students can learn to write, read and do math to EMS

standards or

>do we link into higher education where those institutions, by

their very

>nature, should create (or weed out) students who can read, write

and think?

>

>Either way is not necessarily all good or all bad, but you have

to be

>willing to live with the consequences of the decision.

>

>Barry S.

>

>NOTE: The Texas Department of Health (TDH) has merged with

other agencies

>and is now part of the new Department of State Health Services

(DSHS),

>resulting in the following e-mail address format change for

all employees:

>firstname.lastname@....

>

December 20, 2004