Re: Enemies in high places

[Guest guest]

Should we CC this to Haning?

> Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

>

> Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> Addiction Medicine)

> Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> To: ADD_MED@M...

>

> Fred -

>

> a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> always fluent and =

> easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> believe that I =

> understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> learned to respect =

> it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> article with =

> which I disagree.

> b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> horror itself. =

> The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> example that I =

> would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> summary from 16 =

> years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> presented in the =

> villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> author/patient T. =

> Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> Dr. Gill who =

> invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> the military, =

> recognizing that there were members being severed from

> the service on =

> the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> trying to overcome =

> the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> uninformed but influential =

> line officers for decades, while others poach from

> outside. That Mr. =

> Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> Perkins, without other =

> input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> God forbid =

> anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> with insults, and =

> direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> wouldn't have had any =

> more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> restrictions of =

> patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> able to respond =

> anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> Respects,

> Bil Haning

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---=

> -------

> Wm. F. Haning, III, M.D., FASAM

> - Associate Dean=20

> - Director, Addiction Psychiatry Program

> A. Burns School of Medicine

> University of Hawaii

> ... haning@p...

>

>

> Well it looks to me like dr. haning believes those of his profession

> can destroy peoples' careers with lies if they please, and those of

us

> who speak out about it are " slandering " . I wonder if the soul

buzzards

> at ADD_MED would allow me to come and respond to dr. haning.

>

> Tommy

[Guest guest]

Should we CC this to Haning?

> Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

>

> Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> Addiction Medicine)

> Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> To: ADD_MED@M...

>

> Fred -

>

> a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> always fluent and =

> easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> believe that I =

> understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> learned to respect =

> it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> article with =

> which I disagree.

> b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> horror itself. =

> The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> example that I =

> would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> summary from 16 =

> years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> presented in the =

> villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> author/patient T. =

> Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> Dr. Gill who =

> invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> the military, =

> recognizing that there were members being severed from

> the service on =

> the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> trying to overcome =

> the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> uninformed but influential =

> line officers for decades, while others poach from

> outside. That Mr. =

> Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> Perkins, without other =

> input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> God forbid =

> anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> with insults, and =

> direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> wouldn't have had any =

> more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> restrictions of =

> patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> able to respond =

> anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> Respects,

> Bil Haning

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---=

> -------

> Wm. F. Haning, III, M.D., FASAM

> - Associate Dean=20

> - Director, Addiction Psychiatry Program

> A. Burns School of Medicine

> University of Hawaii

> ... haning@p...

>

>

> Well it looks to me like dr. haning believes those of his profession

> can destroy peoples' careers with lies if they please, and those of

us

> who speak out about it are " slandering " . I wonder if the soul

buzzards

> at ADD_MED would allow me to come and respond to dr. haning.

>

> Tommy

[Guest guest]

Should we CC this to Haning?

> Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

>

> Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> Addiction Medicine)

> Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> To: ADD_MED@M...

>

> Fred -

>

> a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> always fluent and =

> easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> believe that I =

> understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> learned to respect =

> it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> article with =

> which I disagree.

> b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> horror itself. =

> The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> example that I =

> would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> summary from 16 =

> years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> presented in the =

> villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> author/patient T. =

> Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> Dr. Gill who =

> invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> the military, =

> recognizing that there were members being severed from

> the service on =

> the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> trying to overcome =

> the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> uninformed but influential =

> line officers for decades, while others poach from

> outside. That Mr. =

> Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> Perkins, without other =

> input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> God forbid =

> anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> with insults, and =

> direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> wouldn't have had any =

> more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> restrictions of =

> patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> able to respond =

> anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> Respects,

> Bil Haning

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> ---=

> -------

> Wm. F. Haning, III, M.D., FASAM

> - Associate Dean=20

> - Director, Addiction Psychiatry Program

> A. Burns School of Medicine

> University of Hawaii

> ... haning@p...

>

>

> Well it looks to me like dr. haning believes those of his profession

> can destroy peoples' careers with lies if they please, and those of

us

> who speak out about it are " slandering " . I wonder if the soul

buzzards

> at ADD_MED would allow me to come and respond to dr. haning.

>

> Tommy

[Guest guest]

> > Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

> >

> > Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> > Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> > From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> > Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> > Addiction Medicine)

> > Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> > To: ADD_MED@M...

[Guest guest]

> > Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

> >

> > Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> > Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> > From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> > Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> > Addiction Medicine)

> > Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> > To: ADD_MED@M...

[Guest guest]

> > Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

> >

> > Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> > Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> > From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> > Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> > Addiction Medicine)

> > Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> > To: ADD_MED@M...

[Guest guest]

> I am posting now

> from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

forward

> it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

foreign

> to the Yahoo system?

Tommy,

I'm still signed up to get messages from this list via email, and the

addresses come through undisguised there. (Makes me wonder why Yahoo

bothers to disguise them at all). I'll forward Hanning's address to

you.

[Guest guest]

> > I am posting now

> > from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

> forward

> > it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

> foreign

> > to the Yahoo system?

>

> Tommy,

>

> I'm still signed up to get messages from this list via email, and

the

> addresses come through undisguised there. (Makes me wonder why

Yahoo

> bothers to disguise them at all). I'll forward Hanning's address to

> you.

>

>

Thanks, . Now I really feel dumb. I had his address all along

because it came to me undisguised. But when I started considering

forwarding my message to 12sf to him I was focused on the Yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

> > I am posting now

> > from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

> forward

> > it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

> foreign

> > to the Yahoo system?

>

> Tommy,

>

> I'm still signed up to get messages from this list via email, and

the

> addresses come through undisguised there. (Makes me wonder why

Yahoo

> bothers to disguise them at all). I'll forward Hanning's address to

> you.

>

>

Thanks, . Now I really feel dumb. I had his address all along

because it came to me undisguised. But when I started considering

forwarding my message to 12sf to him I was focused on the Yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

> > I am posting now

> > from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

> forward

> > it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

> foreign

> > to the Yahoo system?

>

> Tommy,

>

> I'm still signed up to get messages from this list via email, and

the

> addresses come through undisguised there. (Makes me wonder why

Yahoo

> bothers to disguise them at all). I'll forward Hanning's address to

> you.

>

>

Thanks, . Now I really feel dumb. I had his address all along

because it came to me undisguised. But when I started considering

forwarding my message to 12sf to him I was focused on the Yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

> > Should we CC this to Haning?

>

> , you must be reading my mind. I just now went through the

UH

> med school site and there are no email addresses. I am posting now

> from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

forward

> it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

foreign

> to the Yahoo system?

Tommy, you can just CC him. He won't be able to post on Yahoo, and

your post won't go to Add_Med, but it will go to him. That is his

email address.

[Guest guest]

> > Should we CC this to Haning?

>

> , you must be reading my mind. I just now went through the

UH

> med school site and there are no email addresses. I am posting now

> from the Yahoo site. If I click on hanning@P... below can I

forward

> it to him or is that address, because it comes from ADD_MED,

foreign

> to the Yahoo system?

Tommy, you can just CC him. He won't be able to post on Yahoo, and

your post won't go to Add_Med, but it will go to him. That is his

email address.

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the duplication. I actually sent that yesterday from my

email account. When it appeared that it was not sent I tried again

from the yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the duplication. I actually sent that yesterday from my

email account. When it appeared that it was not sent I tried again

from the yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

Sorry about the duplication. I actually sent that yesterday from my

email account. When it appeared that it was not sent I tried again

from the yahoo site.

Tommy

[Guest guest]

I went to 's website and read her Freedom Haters award for Dr.

Gill.

" The character assassination of Becky Gill... " I have to ask, who

assassinated whose character first? I read your account of " recovery, "

being depressed and having a roomful of your superiors scream at you

and call you names, call you diseased. So what if it happened 16 years

ago? It still happened, and Dr. Gill used unconscionable methods. And

now your character is being assassinated all over again.

" That Mr. Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr. Perkins,

without other input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a

slander. " Now it's wrong to state what happened to you unless you have

additional witnesses to corroborate your story? You have the account

of the situation written by Dr. Gill herself, which is in itself

damning.

It really takes a lot of courage for an MD, with the entire recovery

community behind him (or her as the case may be), to smear an

individual whose self-report was ignored and who was subsequently

harmed by ineffective, inappropriate " treatment. " grrrrr...

judith

> Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

>

> Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> Addiction Medicine)

> Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> To: ADD_MED@M...

>

> Fred -

>

> a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> always fluent and =

> easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> believe that I =

> understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> learned to respect =

> it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> article with =

> which I disagree.

> b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> horror itself. =

> The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> example that I =

> would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> summary from 16 =

> years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> presented in the =

> villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> author/patient T. =

> Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> Dr. Gill who =

> invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> the military, =

> recognizing that there were members being severed from

> the service on =

> the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> trying to overcome =

> the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> uninformed but influential =

> line officers for decades, while others poach from

> outside. That Mr. =

> Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> Perkins, without other =

> input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> God forbid =

> anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> with insults, and =

> direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> wouldn't have had any =

> more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> restrictions of =

> patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> able to respond =

> anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> Respects,

> Bil Haning

[Guest guest]

I went to 's website and read her Freedom Haters award for Dr.

Gill.

" The character assassination of Becky Gill... " I have to ask, who

assassinated whose character first? I read your account of " recovery, "

being depressed and having a roomful of your superiors scream at you

and call you names, call you diseased. So what if it happened 16 years

ago? It still happened, and Dr. Gill used unconscionable methods. And

now your character is being assassinated all over again.

" That Mr. Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr. Perkins,

without other input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a

slander. " Now it's wrong to state what happened to you unless you have

additional witnesses to corroborate your story? You have the account

of the situation written by Dr. Gill herself, which is in itself

damning.

It really takes a lot of courage for an MD, with the entire recovery

community behind him (or her as the case may be), to smear an

individual whose self-report was ignored and who was subsequently

harmed by ineffective, inappropriate " treatment. " grrrrr...

judith

> Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

>

> Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> Addiction Medicine)

> Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> To: ADD_MED@M...

>

> Fred -

>

> a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> always fluent and =

> easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> believe that I =

> understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> learned to respect =

> it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> article with =

> which I disagree.

> b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> horror itself. =

> The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> example that I =

> would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> summary from 16 =

> years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> presented in the =

> villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> author/patient T. =

> Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> Dr. Gill who =

> invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> the military, =

> recognizing that there were members being severed from

> the service on =

> the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> trying to overcome =

> the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> uninformed but influential =

> line officers for decades, while others poach from

> outside. That Mr. =

> Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> Perkins, without other =

> input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> God forbid =

> anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> with insults, and =

> direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> wouldn't have had any =

> more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> restrictions of =

> patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> able to respond =

> anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> Respects,

> Bil Haning

[Guest guest]

Thanks, Judith for your always inspiring support. has now

posted, at the top of her front page, a link to Dr. Hanings letter,

" Dr. Haning's Opinion " . The challenge is on, and he and Gill should

know it by now. I'll give him and Gill a few days to respond. If

they don't, then I'll make the first move and tear into him full

force, including some choice quotes from my number one bulldog, Tom

Szasz. http://www.aahorror.net/Home.htm

Tommy

> > Well look what came in my site box today (not from dr. haning)

> >

> > Subj: AA Horror Stories Website

> > Date: 3/13/01 11:07:50 AM Pacific Standard Time

> > From: haning@P... (Dr. Haning)

> > Sender: ADD_MED@M... (ADD_MED LIST

> > Addiction Medicine)

> > Reply-to: haning@p... (Dr. Haning)

> > To: ADD_MED@M...

> >

> > Fred -

> >

> > a.. Thought your article was informative, and as

> > always fluent and =

> > easily readable. I have got used to your style and

> > believe that I =

> > understand your viewpoint, over the years, and have

> > learned to respect =

> > it. Even when, as in this case, there is much in your

> > article with =

> > which I disagree.

> > b.. Not so the website. The Horror Story site is a

> > horror itself. =

> > The character assassination of Becky Gill is the best

> > example that I =

> > would cite, in criticizing it. A narrative/discharge

> > summary from 16 =

> > years ago using treatment standards of the day is

> > presented in the =

> > villification of Dr. Gill; you can practically hear

> > author/patient T. =

> > Perkins shrieking. There are a very few folks such as

> > Dr. Gill who =

> > invested their careers into saving others' careers in

> > the military, =

> > recognizing that there were members being severed from

> > the service on =

> > the basis of illness-based conduct. They have been

> > trying to overcome =

> > the dismissive and condemnatory attitudes of

> > uninformed but influential =

> > line officers for decades, while others poach from

> > outside. That Mr. =

> > Perkins's experience was presented only by Mr.

> > Perkins, without other =

> > input, makes the whole thing a sham or even a slander.

> > God forbid =

> > anybody should whip up a bunch of accusations flavored

> > with insults, and =

> > direct them against Fred Rotgers, because Fred

> > wouldn't have had any =

> > more chance to respond than Becky. And given the

> > restrictions of =

> > patient-care confidentiality, she would not have been

> > able to respond =

> > anyway. Sorry, but that part didn't sit well.

> > Respects,

> > Bil Haning

[Guest guest]

Captain F. Haning III, USNR

http://www.islandscene.com/profile/2000/000405/william_haning/

[Guest guest]

Captain F. Haning III, USNR

http://www.islandscene.com/profile/2000/000405/william_haning/

[Guest guest]

> Captain F. Haning III, USNR

>

> http://www.islandscene.com/profile/2000/000405/william_haning/

-----------------

Hi Tommy --

I took this guy Haning for an arrogant control-freak just from reading his

nasty letter attacking you. But the above bio piece pretty much confirms it.

Just think about the following:

" And I like cooking for people. I'm not an especially good cook, but I'm

insistent. I'm good at making people eat -- or at least try -- what I cook. "

And I'm sure he's just as " good " at making people " eat " (or at least try to

swallow) the insipid 12-step/ " disease " philosophy -- especially when he can use

the force of the military as coercion.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> Captain F. Haning III, USNR

>

> http://www.islandscene.com/profile/2000/000405/william_haning/

-----------------

Hi Tommy --

I took this guy Haning for an arrogant control-freak just from reading his

nasty letter attacking you. But the above bio piece pretty much confirms it.

Just think about the following:

" And I like cooking for people. I'm not an especially good cook, but I'm

insistent. I'm good at making people eat -- or at least try -- what I cook. "

And I'm sure he's just as " good " at making people " eat " (or at least try to

swallow) the insipid 12-step/ " disease " philosophy -- especially when he can use

the force of the military as coercion.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

> Captain F. Haning III, USNR

>

> http://www.islandscene.com/profile/2000/000405/william_haning/

-----------------

Hi Tommy --

I took this guy Haning for an arrogant control-freak just from reading his

nasty letter attacking you. But the above bio piece pretty much confirms it.

Just think about the following:

" And I like cooking for people. I'm not an especially good cook, but I'm

insistent. I'm good at making people eat -- or at least try -- what I cook. "

And I'm sure he's just as " good " at making people " eat " (or at least try to

swallow) the insipid 12-step/ " disease " philosophy -- especially when he can use

the force of the military as coercion.

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Hey Rita

I'm sure you must have heard that particularly nasty AA reposte

supporting coercion if someone says " You can take a horse to water but

you cant make it drink. " - " But you can give it salt. "

Every time you mention the insanity of what happens in your company if

someone has a single borderline alcohol positive I never cease to be

amazed. and than there's poor Tommy who got eaten when self-referred!

I have suffered the effect of self-referral too Tommy, but in this

instance the aftermath has been a bar from receiving assistance from

ppl who might know what they are doing.

P.

> I took this guy Haning for an arrogant control-freak just from

reading his nasty letter attacking you. But the above bio piece

pretty much confirms it. Just think about the following:

>

> " And I like cooking for people. I'm not an especially good

cook, but I'm insistent. I'm good at making people eat -- or at least

try -- what I cook. "

>

> And I'm sure he's just as " good " at making people " eat " (or at

least try to swallow) the insipid 12-step/ " disease " philosophy --

especially when he can use the force of the military as coercion.

>

> ~Rita

[Guest guest]

Hey Rita

I'm sure you must have heard that particularly nasty AA reposte

supporting coercion if someone says " You can take a horse to water but

you cant make it drink. " - " But you can give it salt. "

Every time you mention the insanity of what happens in your company if

someone has a single borderline alcohol positive I never cease to be

amazed. and than there's poor Tommy who got eaten when self-referred!

I have suffered the effect of self-referral too Tommy, but in this

instance the aftermath has been a bar from receiving assistance from

ppl who might know what they are doing.

P.

> I took this guy Haning for an arrogant control-freak just from

reading his nasty letter attacking you. But the above bio piece

pretty much confirms it. Just think about the following:

>

> " And I like cooking for people. I'm not an especially good

cook, but I'm insistent. I'm good at making people eat -- or at least

try -- what I cook. "

>

> And I'm sure he's just as " good " at making people " eat " (or at

least try to swallow) the insipid 12-step/ " disease " philosophy --

especially when he can use the force of the military as coercion.

>

> ~Rita