Guest guest Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Just wanted to say how useful it is reading ALL the posts on here - there are so many little nuggets (and BIG nuggets!) of gold that pop up that make us think 'ah - we should be doing this or that' or even REMIND us of bits that we've forgotten about. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posts and everyone who replies:-)))) Love Chris T4, storage hormone, stored in body tissues until it needs to be converted to T3. Armour, contains all the thyroid hormones, T4, T3, T2, T1 and Calcitonin. T4 gets converted to T3.. that's what the body uses. More Armour, less T4, you get hyper feeling More T4, less Armour more hypo Do you have a time table for how you did adjustments? T4, after a dosage change, takes up to six weeks to show full effects... it has to do with how the body builds up T4 reserves and starts converting it. T4, as far as I know, remains in the tissues until it's converted. After my RAI they monitored me for a full six months, blood draws every two weeks, watching for my hormones to bottom out, to see if the gland would kick back in.. it didn't... So with the saturation I had of T4, I was in thyroid storm, it took months to get it all used up. So the tissues can store a lot of the stuff if it has it available. T3 acts immediately and the hormone that you take is all used up in a matter of hours after taking it.... T3, once it's filled a T3 receptor is good for several days So, time frame.... how long are you on a given dose before you adjust it? You're not tweaking by much at any one time.... but there is something going on that it's reacting to.... So what I have poured into your brain for pondering is... What if you're dealing with two issues? The tendons being a physical thing relating to the body being in general poor maintenance status. And, the hormones needing to be in a very perfect balance? Tell me again how you did on just T4 or just Armour? How long were you on each, what kinds of doses, for what lengths of time. What is your diagnosis? Can you show your last couple of labs? List your vitamins, supplements... What kinds of foods you eat, and when (breakfast as soon as you can after dosing), how many meals after that? Have you had your adrenals tested? I know... some of this is review.... you've probably contemplated it before... and brought it up before us before... but the best way to figure stuff out is to lay everything out again and pick through it, right? Sleep... big issue for me lately. Are you getting enough sleep for proper rest? Are you getting into level four sleep, where you're body is able to repair itself.... here we get back to the maintenance thing, if you don't get to the proper level of sleep, your body can't repair and heal properly... even with the right hormones. What type of exercise do you do? Be honest.. if you sit, say you sit... if you run marathons, say so... lets see what you are, or are not doing, that affects tendons, range of motion and muscles. I'll stop with this... stir it around... taste it a bit... add some seasoning... and then let me know what your brain comes up with.... I'm sitting here right now analyzing my body... Remember last week, I was talking about lack of sleep, and feeling crabby and all that happy stuff..... and then I got more sleep, during my test, and felt so much better the next day..... Last night I said poop to the world and crashed an hour before my usual time. I buried my head under a pillow and leaned the fan against the bed to mask so that I could mute out the sound AND the vibration of the TV. I zonked out.... Sometime after that I remember getting bad at the fan buzzing me and moved it so that it wasn't touching the bed... and rolling over. I don't remember anything after that... no periodic waking, no tossing and turning. I also said poop to my dosing at the regular time and slept and hour later... so I was out from 9:30 last night till 6:30 this morning.... That's the most sleep I've had in once stretch in years... and that is no exaggeration. I've had the sillies all day. I've been chair dancing and bopping to commercials on TV and I've been working ALL day on the drawings for the clinic. That is how profound getting more sleep has been for me... problem is I don't think I can get away with that every night.... Although it did surprise me.... I took the night time dose and hour early and the morning dose an hour late... I should have been a frumpy today... but I wasn't. Okay... see... I let my mind wander and it thinks of things.... How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? My brain just toggled that part about how every time I try and adjust my dosing to larger doses fewer times per day I'm falling asleep in my chair..... what if this is a conversion thing for you? Talk to be about your how much and whens for both the T4 and the Armour.... What if your body's 'hey get this stuff straight' speech is your 'live wires'? We know it hits us each differently...... .... could be.... I'm stopping.. Or I'll ramble again. I have half an hour to get my mind quieted down.. then it's time for stretches and MLD... no Bedxercises tonight... I've been doing too much bopping and chair dancing... I'll over do..... I'm not kidding... I've been kicking up my feet and flailing arms all day.... I'd get to a point on the drawings that I wanted to study on a bit... and I'd start bopping again.... I was manic.. that's it... I'm MMAANNIICC!!! hehehehehehehe .... and that's with no caffeine OR chocolate!!! hehehehe Topper () Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 17, 2005 Report Share Posted October 17, 2005 Just wanted to say how useful it is reading ALL the posts on here - there are so many little nuggets (and BIG nuggets!) of gold that pop up that make us think 'ah - we should be doing this or that' or even REMIND us of bits that we've forgotten about. Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who posts and everyone who replies:-)))) Love Chris T4, storage hormone, stored in body tissues until it needs to be converted to T3. Armour, contains all the thyroid hormones, T4, T3, T2, T1 and Calcitonin. T4 gets converted to T3.. that's what the body uses. More Armour, less T4, you get hyper feeling More T4, less Armour more hypo Do you have a time table for how you did adjustments? T4, after a dosage change, takes up to six weeks to show full effects... it has to do with how the body builds up T4 reserves and starts converting it. T4, as far as I know, remains in the tissues until it's converted. After my RAI they monitored me for a full six months, blood draws every two weeks, watching for my hormones to bottom out, to see if the gland would kick back in.. it didn't... So with the saturation I had of T4, I was in thyroid storm, it took months to get it all used up. So the tissues can store a lot of the stuff if it has it available. T3 acts immediately and the hormone that you take is all used up in a matter of hours after taking it.... T3, once it's filled a T3 receptor is good for several days So, time frame.... how long are you on a given dose before you adjust it? You're not tweaking by much at any one time.... but there is something going on that it's reacting to.... So what I have poured into your brain for pondering is... What if you're dealing with two issues? The tendons being a physical thing relating to the body being in general poor maintenance status. And, the hormones needing to be in a very perfect balance? Tell me again how you did on just T4 or just Armour? How long were you on each, what kinds of doses, for what lengths of time. What is your diagnosis? Can you show your last couple of labs? List your vitamins, supplements... What kinds of foods you eat, and when (breakfast as soon as you can after dosing), how many meals after that? Have you had your adrenals tested? I know... some of this is review.... you've probably contemplated it before... and brought it up before us before... but the best way to figure stuff out is to lay everything out again and pick through it, right? Sleep... big issue for me lately. Are you getting enough sleep for proper rest? Are you getting into level four sleep, where you're body is able to repair itself.... here we get back to the maintenance thing, if you don't get to the proper level of sleep, your body can't repair and heal properly... even with the right hormones. What type of exercise do you do? Be honest.. if you sit, say you sit... if you run marathons, say so... lets see what you are, or are not doing, that affects tendons, range of motion and muscles. I'll stop with this... stir it around... taste it a bit... add some seasoning... and then let me know what your brain comes up with.... I'm sitting here right now analyzing my body... Remember last week, I was talking about lack of sleep, and feeling crabby and all that happy stuff..... and then I got more sleep, during my test, and felt so much better the next day..... Last night I said poop to the world and crashed an hour before my usual time. I buried my head under a pillow and leaned the fan against the bed to mask so that I could mute out the sound AND the vibration of the TV. I zonked out.... Sometime after that I remember getting bad at the fan buzzing me and moved it so that it wasn't touching the bed... and rolling over. I don't remember anything after that... no periodic waking, no tossing and turning. I also said poop to my dosing at the regular time and slept and hour later... so I was out from 9:30 last night till 6:30 this morning.... That's the most sleep I've had in once stretch in years... and that is no exaggeration. I've had the sillies all day. I've been chair dancing and bopping to commercials on TV and I've been working ALL day on the drawings for the clinic. That is how profound getting more sleep has been for me... problem is I don't think I can get away with that every night.... Although it did surprise me.... I took the night time dose and hour early and the morning dose an hour late... I should have been a frumpy today... but I wasn't. Okay... see... I let my mind wander and it thinks of things.... How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? My brain just toggled that part about how every time I try and adjust my dosing to larger doses fewer times per day I'm falling asleep in my chair..... what if this is a conversion thing for you? Talk to be about your how much and whens for both the T4 and the Armour.... What if your body's 'hey get this stuff straight' speech is your 'live wires'? We know it hits us each differently...... .... could be.... I'm stopping.. Or I'll ramble again. I have half an hour to get my mind quieted down.. then it's time for stretches and MLD... no Bedxercises tonight... I've been doing too much bopping and chair dancing... I'll over do..... I'm not kidding... I've been kicking up my feet and flailing arms all day.... I'd get to a point on the drawings that I wanted to study on a bit... and I'd start bopping again.... I was manic.. that's it... I'm MMAANNIICC!!! hehehehehehehe .... and that's with no caffeine OR chocolate!!! hehehehe Topper () Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hey : Thanks for the swift response. I have had a headbanging headache for a week now. Looking at the 'puter screen is a killer. UGH. I'm so excited you want to kick this with me though. AWESOME! between the lines....YES? topper2@... wrote: You refer to wires... tendon pain... knees, elbows..... what if... what if it's along the same lines as the PF (plantar faciitis) that I was diagnosed with.... Basically it's the tendon sheaths being too dry inside so that the tendon can't slide. It's like a brake cable without lubricant.. the tendon is catching inside the sheath... causing pain.... Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you are describing.... but... what if this is the leading edge of it? IS that like RSD...that chronic pain that can be fixed with pain interupting pills? I don't know...I'm wondering if this is a hypo thing or a hyper thing. The lady at the chiropractor's office has up and down values...going toward hyper where she has done the RAI twice now. She says she has the same thing...."ALL the time" was her response to me. She even claimed to have the sinus headachey thing that I have right now. WEll...I don't want that to be me. She wasn't too on top of her labs or anything...so I'm hoping with some precision I won't have to live like that. Okay, with that floating around in your brain.... ponder two years ago when I started exercising. I was clumsy and slow and didn't have a lot of range of motion..... tight tendons. I did slow stretches working VERY gradually to increase range of motion... when I had full range of motion again then I worked on resistance. Okay.. now add that to what is floating.... Hypo body is stiff, sore, slower moving, molasses slow in repairing things, lots of maintenance things are not kept up... sludging bowels, gasses and by products not getting flushed out of muscles.... What if the tendon lubricant is not enough sludgy and in need of 'an oil change' tendons are too tight Give it a good stir... Sounds plausible...but here is one thing. I started back to the gym in the spring...and that is when it got pretty rough with the funny bones getting wild on me. I chalked it up to being over medicated...but then I realized when I reset my protocol to the wire line...it was still present when I was clearly hypo and really unable to work out. So the workout moving around connection thing didn't seem to bear out. (Could be wrong though) It seems to be something I can make happen or take away when I do certain combo...but you are right...maybe just one other factor...like healing or working out could be promoting this thing. Maybe its a transitory thing...I'm not sure. Nnow back to hormones. T4, storage hormone, stored in body tissues until it needs to be converted to T3. Armour, contains all the thyroid hormones, T4, T3, T2, T1 and Calcitonin. T4 gets converted to T3.. that's what the body uses. More Armour, less T4, you get hyper feeling More T4, less Armour more hypo Do you have a time table for how you did adjustments? I track everything in my daily planner. I can pinpoint symptoms to the protocol this way..and make adjustments accordingly. T4, after a dosage change, takes up to six weeks to show full effects... it has to do with how the body builds up T4 reserves and starts converting it. T4, as far as I know, remains in the tissues until it's converted. After my RAI they monitored me for a full six months, blood draws every two weeks, watching for my hormones to bottom out, to see if the gland would kick back in.. it didn't... So with the saturation I had of T4, I was in thyroid storm, it took months to get it all used up. So the tissues can store a lot of the stuff if it has it available. T3 acts immediately and the hormone that you take is all used up in a matter of hours after taking it.... T3, once it's filled a T3 receptor is good for several days So, time frame.... how long are you on a given dose before you adjust it? It varies. If I hit a wall...I change it. When I sailed up past 116...I kept pushing it upward every week or so...until I was so overwrought I had to beg out at 135. People kept telling me...that more t3 is better. Keep going..you are just still hypo. AND...I was still hypo...but the t3 was killing me. Right now..I'm on the 45mcg S and 108mg A. I have carried the synthetic for 30 days and the Armour for 16 days. I want to try and stay on it for 56 days to really see where the ball lands before messing with it...unless something pops up that is unbearable. The tendon pain is one of those things that can get that way. Its there but not too bad right now. You're not tweaking by much at any one time.... but there is something going on that it's reacting to.... So what I have poured into your brain for pondering is... What if you're dealing with two issues? The tendons being a physical thing relating to the body being in general poor maintenance status. And, the hormones needing to be in a very perfect balance? Tell me again how you did on just T4 or just Armour? How long were you on each, what kinds of doses, for what lengths of time. I was on t4 after thryoidectomy (CA) multinodular goiter for a month. 100 mcgs. I felt like hell..and had cold knives, electrical pains all over. I couldn't think..count and was dizzy. I took it again...for three months...sept oct november...and wished I was dead every day. I took..100 mcgs. 12/2/04 t4free 2.0 (.08-1.8) T3free 315 (230-420) TSH 1.28 I took all armour during the summer in between the two stints on t4. It was better..but I changed doses almost daily. I kept hopping around...trying to get away from all the symptoms. The doctors told me I should have no symptoms so..that is what I was trying to achieve. Little did I know...that the torture chamber is something you have to work your way out of and the exit is tiny. So...I sometimes felt well...but most of the time...I was not. 8/3/04 -inconsistent high dose of TC Armour only t4free 2.00 (.07-1.80) t3free 4.9 (2.3-5.0) TSH <.02 I went to a new doc at this point who snarled that I was taking to much meds..and so I went off them...and felt better. Three weeks later my TSH went up to 110. Then...since I was convinced that the pills were the problem, I took only 50mcg of the synthetic (doctor chose the sythetic) for about a month before upping to 100 mcg. Sure enough...the pains were terrible...and the psychosis was increadible. The docs said it was a placebo effect or my reaction to the surgery...not the mismanaged meds. What is your diagnosis? CA...with underlying hashi Can you show your last couple of labs? 8/01/05 While taking 83mgs armour and 37.mcgs synthetic for a month t4free 1.4 (0.8-1.8) t3free 403 (230-420) tsh .01 List your vitamins, supplements... Melatonin, fish oil, vitamin D, and iron, and multi vitamin What kinds of foods you eat, and when (breakfast as soon as you can after dosing), how many meals after that? I eat lots of little meals..nibble away throughout the day. Appetite is fine. Have you had your adrenals tested? Yes...every way possible. They looked stressed at times...but there is always plenty of cortisol. I've got some hydro that I've taken too see if it would help. (only 2.5-10mgs). It only seems to hype me up and give me zits...I stopped taking it yesterday just to see what would happen...and I'm calmer and the tendo pain seems less already. Hmmmnnnn. I know... some of this is review.... you've probably contemplated it before... and brought it up before us before... but the best way to figure stuff out is to lay everything out again and pick through it, right? You have that right! Sleep... big issue for me lately. Are you getting enough sleep for proper rest? I sleep well when I'm not driving up my armour. If I am on stable dose for two weeks...I am good. Like now...I've been doing this same dose now for over 12 days...and I'm sleeping all night. It was VERY bad broken sleep everyday before that. Are you getting into level four sleep, where you're body is able to repair itself.... here we get back to the maintenance thing, if you don't get to the proper level of sleep, your body can't repair and heal properly... even with the right hormones. It seems as if...I wake up still tired though. It may be that the level four isn't really happening. I'm not sure. I do dream...very vivid. Does that count? What type of exercise do you do? Be honest.. if you sit, say you sit... if you run marathons, say so... lets see what you are, or are not doing, that affects tendons, range of motion and muscles. Right now...I'm a sitter. I have been very aggressive....before and the tendon pain seems to not have any correlation to excersize. I'll stop with this... stir it around... taste it a bit... add some seasoning... and then let me know what your brain comes up with.... These are good questions...I have thought about most of them..but all we need is one nugget...so its good to unearth everything. I'm sitting here right now analyzing my body... Remember last week, I was talking about lack of sleep, and feeling crabby and all that happy stuff..... and then I got more sleep, during my test, and felt so much better the next day..... Last night I said poop to the world and crashed an hour before my usual time. I buried my head under a pillow and leaned the fan against the bed to mask so that I could mute out the sound AND the vibration of the TV. I zonked out.... Sometime after that I remember getting bad at the fan buzzing me and moved it so that it wasn't touching the bed... and rolling over. I don't remember anything after that... no periodic waking, no tossing and turning. I also said poop to my dosing at the regular time and slept and hour later... so I was out from 9:30 last night till 6:30 this morning.... That's the most sleep I've had in once stretch in years... and that is no exaggeration. I've had the sillies all day. I've been chair dancing and bopping to commercials on TV and I've been working ALL day on the drawings for the clinic. That is how profound getting more sleep has been for me... problem is I don't think I can get away with that every night.... Although it did surprise me.... I took the night time dose and hour early and the morning dose an hour late... I should have been a frumpy today... but I wasn't. Okay... see... I let my mind wander and it thinks of things.... YES...great for you. I'm jealous...BUT extremely happy for you at the same time. You deserve some sleep! LOL How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... Yes...do take it in morning. No...I take 43.75 mcg (1/4 brown 1/4 white) it in my cheek. I then eat or drink whatever I want. Take extra white quarter on Sunday. how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? I take the Armour in four split doses. 45 in the morning...37.5 in the noon, 15 at four o'clock (when oprah comes on) and then 11.75 at 8 pm. All together I get 114.28 t4 and 16.5 t3 since the actiual dose is 108.75 and 45.53 synthetic. My bp is looking good 118/78 and 83 pulse yeterday at 9:30 pm and 121/80 and pulse 67 ant 1:30 am. I feel better as far as the sweating thing is concerned....and I'm feeling toastier on the inside, although the feet are still chilled. I feel sort of anxious...but that may be my personality around my mom. She has boundary issues (VERY aggressive brash British woman). I live with her unfortunately since my income is gone until I get well. I feel a terrible lack of control over my space and my health. This is so overwhelming. Just now she was screaming through the wall at me as usual. She doesn't work...so I'm her prey all day...all the time. She stomps around our small house like a wild animal... My brain just toggled that part about how every time I try and adjust my dosing to larger doses fewer times per day I'm falling asleep in my chair..... what if this is a conversion thing for you? Conversion thing? What do you mean? Talk to be about your how much and whens for both the T4 and the Armour.... What if your body's 'hey get this stuff straight' speech is your 'live wires'? VERY possible...but it seems like its specific to the protocol. 70mg no... 75mg yes...but only against the 50 mcg of synthetic. Its not 70 or 75 or even 137 if I put it upagainst a lower dose like synthetic 37.5mcg. But...it retruns when its 108mgs against synthetic is 45mcgs ? I of course wonder if I dont' need a major flip..like 70 of each? I can't help seeing the combo somehow harboring the culprit...and YES...I know it seems very strange. But then again this whole darn thing is strange. Its taken me months to pinpoint this stuff...I just wish I could get a combo that fixes me without it. Ya know? We know it hits us each differently...... .... could be.... I'm stopping.. Or I'll ramble again. I have half an hour to get my mind quieted down.. then it's time for stretches and MLD... no Bedxercises tonight... I've been doing too much bopping and chair dancing... I'll over do..... I'm not kidding... I've been kicking up my feet and flailing arms all day.... I'd get to a point on the drawings that I wanted to study on a bit... and I'd start bopping again.... I was manic.. that's it... I'm MMAANNIICC!!! hehehehehehehe Yeah....but you are the good kind! Thanks a million. ~E:) Hi...its me E...again!:)I know I ran my whole story by ya before and as I recall...you didn't offer much of an explaination for the VERY strange tendon pain I get when taking certain combos. Nobody has..so don't think its you...but it has resurfaced again. If you don't mind...I'd like to revisit this vexing question. You are just so good at kicking stuff around. So anyway...its like an invisable trip cord. When I hit it...I know it...but it makes no real sense..and I have never heard of anyone else having this problem. When I was on 50 mcg synthetic and 70 mg armour...I didn't have it...but when I upped the Armour to say 75 mgs the tendon pain showed.So...since I was still hypo I had to pick which would go up and which would go down...Follow?I decided to reduce the synthetic and up the armour. YES..great it worked. I could float up to 120 mgs before the t3 sent me hyper..but since I had to reduce the t4 to (37.5mcg)...I still felt hypo. So...it looked good at first...but didn't really fix me in the end.So...now I've decided to try a middle of the road approach. I've got 45 synthetic and 108 armour. I feel like a lot of stuff is feeling good...but the tendon pain is beginning to threaten again. Its in my rotator cuffs, lower back, hips and funny bones on the knees and elbows. If I feel around my elbow or knee...its getting to feel like a live wire. I've been on this protocol for only 14 days...so it doesn't look too promising for the long run. Grrr.So...I'm thinking I have to drop or add some synthetic...or drop some armour. (Of course I'm only talking 4 mgs armour or 2 mcgs of the synthetic). Just a little tweak. I feel like I'm CLOSE to getting this right and the tendon pain is maybe something that can provide guidance. If you can believe my generous reasoning there. LOLMind you I still feel BOLTED to the furniture...so its not like I'm doing great..but my hands and (coolish) feet are alive now..and that is a BIG improvement over the entire summer. So you have any thoughts about this. I'm hoping to shake something lose here. Extra set of eyes. He heee. Thanks ...you are doing SUCH an outstanding job with everyone.I'll bet you that there is a special place for you in heaven. Hopefully when we are both there you come and visit.~E:) ~EG Connecticut Total-T 16 months ago / 37.5 mg Synthetic/120mg Armour since August 7th Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. 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Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hey : Thanks for the swift response. I have had a headbanging headache for a week now. Looking at the 'puter screen is a killer. UGH. I'm so excited you want to kick this with me though. AWESOME! between the lines....YES? topper2@... wrote: You refer to wires... tendon pain... knees, elbows..... what if... what if it's along the same lines as the PF (plantar faciitis) that I was diagnosed with.... Basically it's the tendon sheaths being too dry inside so that the tendon can't slide. It's like a brake cable without lubricant.. the tendon is catching inside the sheath... causing pain.... Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you are describing.... but... what if this is the leading edge of it? IS that like RSD...that chronic pain that can be fixed with pain interupting pills? I don't know...I'm wondering if this is a hypo thing or a hyper thing. The lady at the chiropractor's office has up and down values...going toward hyper where she has done the RAI twice now. She says she has the same thing...."ALL the time" was her response to me. She even claimed to have the sinus headachey thing that I have right now. WEll...I don't want that to be me. She wasn't too on top of her labs or anything...so I'm hoping with some precision I won't have to live like that. Okay, with that floating around in your brain.... ponder two years ago when I started exercising. I was clumsy and slow and didn't have a lot of range of motion..... tight tendons. I did slow stretches working VERY gradually to increase range of motion... when I had full range of motion again then I worked on resistance. Okay.. now add that to what is floating.... Hypo body is stiff, sore, slower moving, molasses slow in repairing things, lots of maintenance things are not kept up... sludging bowels, gasses and by products not getting flushed out of muscles.... What if the tendon lubricant is not enough sludgy and in need of 'an oil change' tendons are too tight Give it a good stir... Sounds plausible...but here is one thing. I started back to the gym in the spring...and that is when it got pretty rough with the funny bones getting wild on me. I chalked it up to being over medicated...but then I realized when I reset my protocol to the wire line...it was still present when I was clearly hypo and really unable to work out. So the workout moving around connection thing didn't seem to bear out. (Could be wrong though) It seems to be something I can make happen or take away when I do certain combo...but you are right...maybe just one other factor...like healing or working out could be promoting this thing. Maybe its a transitory thing...I'm not sure. Nnow back to hormones. T4, storage hormone, stored in body tissues until it needs to be converted to T3. Armour, contains all the thyroid hormones, T4, T3, T2, T1 and Calcitonin. T4 gets converted to T3.. that's what the body uses. More Armour, less T4, you get hyper feeling More T4, less Armour more hypo Do you have a time table for how you did adjustments? I track everything in my daily planner. I can pinpoint symptoms to the protocol this way..and make adjustments accordingly. T4, after a dosage change, takes up to six weeks to show full effects... it has to do with how the body builds up T4 reserves and starts converting it. T4, as far as I know, remains in the tissues until it's converted. After my RAI they monitored me for a full six months, blood draws every two weeks, watching for my hormones to bottom out, to see if the gland would kick back in.. it didn't... So with the saturation I had of T4, I was in thyroid storm, it took months to get it all used up. So the tissues can store a lot of the stuff if it has it available. T3 acts immediately and the hormone that you take is all used up in a matter of hours after taking it.... T3, once it's filled a T3 receptor is good for several days So, time frame.... how long are you on a given dose before you adjust it? It varies. If I hit a wall...I change it. When I sailed up past 116...I kept pushing it upward every week or so...until I was so overwrought I had to beg out at 135. People kept telling me...that more t3 is better. Keep going..you are just still hypo. AND...I was still hypo...but the t3 was killing me. Right now..I'm on the 45mcg S and 108mg A. I have carried the synthetic for 30 days and the Armour for 16 days. I want to try and stay on it for 56 days to really see where the ball lands before messing with it...unless something pops up that is unbearable. The tendon pain is one of those things that can get that way. Its there but not too bad right now. You're not tweaking by much at any one time.... but there is something going on that it's reacting to.... So what I have poured into your brain for pondering is... What if you're dealing with two issues? The tendons being a physical thing relating to the body being in general poor maintenance status. And, the hormones needing to be in a very perfect balance? Tell me again how you did on just T4 or just Armour? How long were you on each, what kinds of doses, for what lengths of time. I was on t4 after thryoidectomy (CA) multinodular goiter for a month. 100 mcgs. I felt like hell..and had cold knives, electrical pains all over. I couldn't think..count and was dizzy. I took it again...for three months...sept oct november...and wished I was dead every day. I took..100 mcgs. 12/2/04 t4free 2.0 (.08-1.8) T3free 315 (230-420) TSH 1.28 I took all armour during the summer in between the two stints on t4. It was better..but I changed doses almost daily. I kept hopping around...trying to get away from all the symptoms. The doctors told me I should have no symptoms so..that is what I was trying to achieve. Little did I know...that the torture chamber is something you have to work your way out of and the exit is tiny. So...I sometimes felt well...but most of the time...I was not. 8/3/04 -inconsistent high dose of TC Armour only t4free 2.00 (.07-1.80) t3free 4.9 (2.3-5.0) TSH <.02 I went to a new doc at this point who snarled that I was taking to much meds..and so I went off them...and felt better. Three weeks later my TSH went up to 110. Then...since I was convinced that the pills were the problem, I took only 50mcg of the synthetic (doctor chose the sythetic) for about a month before upping to 100 mcg. Sure enough...the pains were terrible...and the psychosis was increadible. The docs said it was a placebo effect or my reaction to the surgery...not the mismanaged meds. What is your diagnosis? CA...with underlying hashi Can you show your last couple of labs? 8/01/05 While taking 83mgs armour and 37.mcgs synthetic for a month t4free 1.4 (0.8-1.8) t3free 403 (230-420) tsh .01 List your vitamins, supplements... Melatonin, fish oil, vitamin D, and iron, and multi vitamin What kinds of foods you eat, and when (breakfast as soon as you can after dosing), how many meals after that? I eat lots of little meals..nibble away throughout the day. Appetite is fine. Have you had your adrenals tested? Yes...every way possible. They looked stressed at times...but there is always plenty of cortisol. I've got some hydro that I've taken too see if it would help. (only 2.5-10mgs). It only seems to hype me up and give me zits...I stopped taking it yesterday just to see what would happen...and I'm calmer and the tendo pain seems less already. Hmmmnnnn. I know... some of this is review.... you've probably contemplated it before... and brought it up before us before... but the best way to figure stuff out is to lay everything out again and pick through it, right? You have that right! Sleep... big issue for me lately. Are you getting enough sleep for proper rest? I sleep well when I'm not driving up my armour. If I am on stable dose for two weeks...I am good. Like now...I've been doing this same dose now for over 12 days...and I'm sleeping all night. It was VERY bad broken sleep everyday before that. Are you getting into level four sleep, where you're body is able to repair itself.... here we get back to the maintenance thing, if you don't get to the proper level of sleep, your body can't repair and heal properly... even with the right hormones. It seems as if...I wake up still tired though. It may be that the level four isn't really happening. I'm not sure. I do dream...very vivid. Does that count? What type of exercise do you do? Be honest.. if you sit, say you sit... if you run marathons, say so... lets see what you are, or are not doing, that affects tendons, range of motion and muscles. Right now...I'm a sitter. I have been very aggressive....before and the tendon pain seems to not have any correlation to excersize. I'll stop with this... stir it around... taste it a bit... add some seasoning... and then let me know what your brain comes up with.... These are good questions...I have thought about most of them..but all we need is one nugget...so its good to unearth everything. I'm sitting here right now analyzing my body... Remember last week, I was talking about lack of sleep, and feeling crabby and all that happy stuff..... and then I got more sleep, during my test, and felt so much better the next day..... Last night I said poop to the world and crashed an hour before my usual time. I buried my head under a pillow and leaned the fan against the bed to mask so that I could mute out the sound AND the vibration of the TV. I zonked out.... Sometime after that I remember getting bad at the fan buzzing me and moved it so that it wasn't touching the bed... and rolling over. I don't remember anything after that... no periodic waking, no tossing and turning. I also said poop to my dosing at the regular time and slept and hour later... so I was out from 9:30 last night till 6:30 this morning.... That's the most sleep I've had in once stretch in years... and that is no exaggeration. I've had the sillies all day. I've been chair dancing and bopping to commercials on TV and I've been working ALL day on the drawings for the clinic. That is how profound getting more sleep has been for me... problem is I don't think I can get away with that every night.... Although it did surprise me.... I took the night time dose and hour early and the morning dose an hour late... I should have been a frumpy today... but I wasn't. Okay... see... I let my mind wander and it thinks of things.... YES...great for you. I'm jealous...BUT extremely happy for you at the same time. You deserve some sleep! LOL How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... Yes...do take it in morning. No...I take 43.75 mcg (1/4 brown 1/4 white) it in my cheek. I then eat or drink whatever I want. Take extra white quarter on Sunday. how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? I take the Armour in four split doses. 45 in the morning...37.5 in the noon, 15 at four o'clock (when oprah comes on) and then 11.75 at 8 pm. All together I get 114.28 t4 and 16.5 t3 since the actiual dose is 108.75 and 45.53 synthetic. My bp is looking good 118/78 and 83 pulse yeterday at 9:30 pm and 121/80 and pulse 67 ant 1:30 am. I feel better as far as the sweating thing is concerned....and I'm feeling toastier on the inside, although the feet are still chilled. I feel sort of anxious...but that may be my personality around my mom. She has boundary issues (VERY aggressive brash British woman). I live with her unfortunately since my income is gone until I get well. I feel a terrible lack of control over my space and my health. This is so overwhelming. Just now she was screaming through the wall at me as usual. She doesn't work...so I'm her prey all day...all the time. She stomps around our small house like a wild animal... My brain just toggled that part about how every time I try and adjust my dosing to larger doses fewer times per day I'm falling asleep in my chair..... what if this is a conversion thing for you? Conversion thing? What do you mean? Talk to be about your how much and whens for both the T4 and the Armour.... What if your body's 'hey get this stuff straight' speech is your 'live wires'? VERY possible...but it seems like its specific to the protocol. 70mg no... 75mg yes...but only against the 50 mcg of synthetic. Its not 70 or 75 or even 137 if I put it upagainst a lower dose like synthetic 37.5mcg. But...it retruns when its 108mgs against synthetic is 45mcgs ? I of course wonder if I dont' need a major flip..like 70 of each? I can't help seeing the combo somehow harboring the culprit...and YES...I know it seems very strange. But then again this whole darn thing is strange. Its taken me months to pinpoint this stuff...I just wish I could get a combo that fixes me without it. Ya know? We know it hits us each differently...... .... could be.... I'm stopping.. Or I'll ramble again. I have half an hour to get my mind quieted down.. then it's time for stretches and MLD... no Bedxercises tonight... I've been doing too much bopping and chair dancing... I'll over do..... I'm not kidding... I've been kicking up my feet and flailing arms all day.... I'd get to a point on the drawings that I wanted to study on a bit... and I'd start bopping again.... I was manic.. that's it... I'm MMAANNIICC!!! hehehehehehehe Yeah....but you are the good kind! Thanks a million. ~E:) Hi...its me E...again!:)I know I ran my whole story by ya before and as I recall...you didn't offer much of an explaination for the VERY strange tendon pain I get when taking certain combos. Nobody has..so don't think its you...but it has resurfaced again. If you don't mind...I'd like to revisit this vexing question. You are just so good at kicking stuff around. So anyway...its like an invisable trip cord. When I hit it...I know it...but it makes no real sense..and I have never heard of anyone else having this problem. When I was on 50 mcg synthetic and 70 mg armour...I didn't have it...but when I upped the Armour to say 75 mgs the tendon pain showed.So...since I was still hypo I had to pick which would go up and which would go down...Follow?I decided to reduce the synthetic and up the armour. YES..great it worked. I could float up to 120 mgs before the t3 sent me hyper..but since I had to reduce the t4 to (37.5mcg)...I still felt hypo. So...it looked good at first...but didn't really fix me in the end.So...now I've decided to try a middle of the road approach. I've got 45 synthetic and 108 armour. I feel like a lot of stuff is feeling good...but the tendon pain is beginning to threaten again. Its in my rotator cuffs, lower back, hips and funny bones on the knees and elbows. If I feel around my elbow or knee...its getting to feel like a live wire. I've been on this protocol for only 14 days...so it doesn't look too promising for the long run. Grrr.So...I'm thinking I have to drop or add some synthetic...or drop some armour. (Of course I'm only talking 4 mgs armour or 2 mcgs of the synthetic). Just a little tweak. I feel like I'm CLOSE to getting this right and the tendon pain is maybe something that can provide guidance. If you can believe my generous reasoning there. LOLMind you I still feel BOLTED to the furniture...so its not like I'm doing great..but my hands and (coolish) feet are alive now..and that is a BIG improvement over the entire summer. So you have any thoughts about this. I'm hoping to shake something lose here. Extra set of eyes. He heee. Thanks ...you are doing SUCH an outstanding job with everyone.I'll bet you that there is a special place for you in heaven. Hopefully when we are both there you come and visit.~E:) ~EG Connecticut Total-T 16 months ago / 37.5 mg Synthetic/120mg Armour since August 7th Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. 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Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Hey : Thanks for the swift response. I have had a headbanging headache for a week now. Looking at the 'puter screen is a killer. UGH. I'm so excited you want to kick this with me though. AWESOME! between the lines....YES? topper2@... wrote: You refer to wires... tendon pain... knees, elbows..... what if... what if it's along the same lines as the PF (plantar faciitis) that I was diagnosed with.... Basically it's the tendon sheaths being too dry inside so that the tendon can't slide. It's like a brake cable without lubricant.. the tendon is catching inside the sheath... causing pain.... Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you are describing.... but... what if this is the leading edge of it? IS that like RSD...that chronic pain that can be fixed with pain interupting pills? I don't know...I'm wondering if this is a hypo thing or a hyper thing. The lady at the chiropractor's office has up and down values...going toward hyper where she has done the RAI twice now. She says she has the same thing...."ALL the time" was her response to me. She even claimed to have the sinus headachey thing that I have right now. WEll...I don't want that to be me. She wasn't too on top of her labs or anything...so I'm hoping with some precision I won't have to live like that. Okay, with that floating around in your brain.... ponder two years ago when I started exercising. I was clumsy and slow and didn't have a lot of range of motion..... tight tendons. I did slow stretches working VERY gradually to increase range of motion... when I had full range of motion again then I worked on resistance. Okay.. now add that to what is floating.... Hypo body is stiff, sore, slower moving, molasses slow in repairing things, lots of maintenance things are not kept up... sludging bowels, gasses and by products not getting flushed out of muscles.... What if the tendon lubricant is not enough sludgy and in need of 'an oil change' tendons are too tight Give it a good stir... Sounds plausible...but here is one thing. I started back to the gym in the spring...and that is when it got pretty rough with the funny bones getting wild on me. I chalked it up to being over medicated...but then I realized when I reset my protocol to the wire line...it was still present when I was clearly hypo and really unable to work out. So the workout moving around connection thing didn't seem to bear out. (Could be wrong though) It seems to be something I can make happen or take away when I do certain combo...but you are right...maybe just one other factor...like healing or working out could be promoting this thing. Maybe its a transitory thing...I'm not sure. Nnow back to hormones. T4, storage hormone, stored in body tissues until it needs to be converted to T3. Armour, contains all the thyroid hormones, T4, T3, T2, T1 and Calcitonin. T4 gets converted to T3.. that's what the body uses. More Armour, less T4, you get hyper feeling More T4, less Armour more hypo Do you have a time table for how you did adjustments? I track everything in my daily planner. I can pinpoint symptoms to the protocol this way..and make adjustments accordingly. T4, after a dosage change, takes up to six weeks to show full effects... it has to do with how the body builds up T4 reserves and starts converting it. T4, as far as I know, remains in the tissues until it's converted. After my RAI they monitored me for a full six months, blood draws every two weeks, watching for my hormones to bottom out, to see if the gland would kick back in.. it didn't... So with the saturation I had of T4, I was in thyroid storm, it took months to get it all used up. So the tissues can store a lot of the stuff if it has it available. T3 acts immediately and the hormone that you take is all used up in a matter of hours after taking it.... T3, once it's filled a T3 receptor is good for several days So, time frame.... how long are you on a given dose before you adjust it? It varies. If I hit a wall...I change it. When I sailed up past 116...I kept pushing it upward every week or so...until I was so overwrought I had to beg out at 135. People kept telling me...that more t3 is better. Keep going..you are just still hypo. AND...I was still hypo...but the t3 was killing me. Right now..I'm on the 45mcg S and 108mg A. I have carried the synthetic for 30 days and the Armour for 16 days. I want to try and stay on it for 56 days to really see where the ball lands before messing with it...unless something pops up that is unbearable. The tendon pain is one of those things that can get that way. Its there but not too bad right now. You're not tweaking by much at any one time.... but there is something going on that it's reacting to.... So what I have poured into your brain for pondering is... What if you're dealing with two issues? The tendons being a physical thing relating to the body being in general poor maintenance status. And, the hormones needing to be in a very perfect balance? Tell me again how you did on just T4 or just Armour? How long were you on each, what kinds of doses, for what lengths of time. I was on t4 after thryoidectomy (CA) multinodular goiter for a month. 100 mcgs. I felt like hell..and had cold knives, electrical pains all over. I couldn't think..count and was dizzy. I took it again...for three months...sept oct november...and wished I was dead every day. I took..100 mcgs. 12/2/04 t4free 2.0 (.08-1.8) T3free 315 (230-420) TSH 1.28 I took all armour during the summer in between the two stints on t4. It was better..but I changed doses almost daily. I kept hopping around...trying to get away from all the symptoms. The doctors told me I should have no symptoms so..that is what I was trying to achieve. Little did I know...that the torture chamber is something you have to work your way out of and the exit is tiny. So...I sometimes felt well...but most of the time...I was not. 8/3/04 -inconsistent high dose of TC Armour only t4free 2.00 (.07-1.80) t3free 4.9 (2.3-5.0) TSH <.02 I went to a new doc at this point who snarled that I was taking to much meds..and so I went off them...and felt better. Three weeks later my TSH went up to 110. Then...since I was convinced that the pills were the problem, I took only 50mcg of the synthetic (doctor chose the sythetic) for about a month before upping to 100 mcg. Sure enough...the pains were terrible...and the psychosis was increadible. The docs said it was a placebo effect or my reaction to the surgery...not the mismanaged meds. What is your diagnosis? CA...with underlying hashi Can you show your last couple of labs? 8/01/05 While taking 83mgs armour and 37.mcgs synthetic for a month t4free 1.4 (0.8-1.8) t3free 403 (230-420) tsh .01 List your vitamins, supplements... Melatonin, fish oil, vitamin D, and iron, and multi vitamin What kinds of foods you eat, and when (breakfast as soon as you can after dosing), how many meals after that? I eat lots of little meals..nibble away throughout the day. Appetite is fine. Have you had your adrenals tested? Yes...every way possible. They looked stressed at times...but there is always plenty of cortisol. I've got some hydro that I've taken too see if it would help. (only 2.5-10mgs). It only seems to hype me up and give me zits...I stopped taking it yesterday just to see what would happen...and I'm calmer and the tendo pain seems less already. Hmmmnnnn. I know... some of this is review.... you've probably contemplated it before... and brought it up before us before... but the best way to figure stuff out is to lay everything out again and pick through it, right? You have that right! Sleep... big issue for me lately. Are you getting enough sleep for proper rest? I sleep well when I'm not driving up my armour. If I am on stable dose for two weeks...I am good. Like now...I've been doing this same dose now for over 12 days...and I'm sleeping all night. It was VERY bad broken sleep everyday before that. Are you getting into level four sleep, where you're body is able to repair itself.... here we get back to the maintenance thing, if you don't get to the proper level of sleep, your body can't repair and heal properly... even with the right hormones. It seems as if...I wake up still tired though. It may be that the level four isn't really happening. I'm not sure. I do dream...very vivid. Does that count? What type of exercise do you do? Be honest.. if you sit, say you sit... if you run marathons, say so... lets see what you are, or are not doing, that affects tendons, range of motion and muscles. Right now...I'm a sitter. I have been very aggressive....before and the tendon pain seems to not have any correlation to excersize. I'll stop with this... stir it around... taste it a bit... add some seasoning... and then let me know what your brain comes up with.... These are good questions...I have thought about most of them..but all we need is one nugget...so its good to unearth everything. I'm sitting here right now analyzing my body... Remember last week, I was talking about lack of sleep, and feeling crabby and all that happy stuff..... and then I got more sleep, during my test, and felt so much better the next day..... Last night I said poop to the world and crashed an hour before my usual time. I buried my head under a pillow and leaned the fan against the bed to mask so that I could mute out the sound AND the vibration of the TV. I zonked out.... Sometime after that I remember getting bad at the fan buzzing me and moved it so that it wasn't touching the bed... and rolling over. I don't remember anything after that... no periodic waking, no tossing and turning. I also said poop to my dosing at the regular time and slept and hour later... so I was out from 9:30 last night till 6:30 this morning.... That's the most sleep I've had in once stretch in years... and that is no exaggeration. I've had the sillies all day. I've been chair dancing and bopping to commercials on TV and I've been working ALL day on the drawings for the clinic. That is how profound getting more sleep has been for me... problem is I don't think I can get away with that every night.... Although it did surprise me.... I took the night time dose and hour early and the morning dose an hour late... I should have been a frumpy today... but I wasn't. Okay... see... I let my mind wander and it thinks of things.... YES...great for you. I'm jealous...BUT extremely happy for you at the same time. You deserve some sleep! LOL How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... Yes...do take it in morning. No...I take 43.75 mcg (1/4 brown 1/4 white) it in my cheek. I then eat or drink whatever I want. Take extra white quarter on Sunday. how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? I take the Armour in four split doses. 45 in the morning...37.5 in the noon, 15 at four o'clock (when oprah comes on) and then 11.75 at 8 pm. All together I get 114.28 t4 and 16.5 t3 since the actiual dose is 108.75 and 45.53 synthetic. My bp is looking good 118/78 and 83 pulse yeterday at 9:30 pm and 121/80 and pulse 67 ant 1:30 am. I feel better as far as the sweating thing is concerned....and I'm feeling toastier on the inside, although the feet are still chilled. I feel sort of anxious...but that may be my personality around my mom. She has boundary issues (VERY aggressive brash British woman). I live with her unfortunately since my income is gone until I get well. I feel a terrible lack of control over my space and my health. This is so overwhelming. Just now she was screaming through the wall at me as usual. She doesn't work...so I'm her prey all day...all the time. She stomps around our small house like a wild animal... My brain just toggled that part about how every time I try and adjust my dosing to larger doses fewer times per day I'm falling asleep in my chair..... what if this is a conversion thing for you? Conversion thing? What do you mean? Talk to be about your how much and whens for both the T4 and the Armour.... What if your body's 'hey get this stuff straight' speech is your 'live wires'? VERY possible...but it seems like its specific to the protocol. 70mg no... 75mg yes...but only against the 50 mcg of synthetic. Its not 70 or 75 or even 137 if I put it upagainst a lower dose like synthetic 37.5mcg. But...it retruns when its 108mgs against synthetic is 45mcgs ? I of course wonder if I dont' need a major flip..like 70 of each? I can't help seeing the combo somehow harboring the culprit...and YES...I know it seems very strange. But then again this whole darn thing is strange. Its taken me months to pinpoint this stuff...I just wish I could get a combo that fixes me without it. Ya know? We know it hits us each differently...... .... could be.... I'm stopping.. Or I'll ramble again. I have half an hour to get my mind quieted down.. then it's time for stretches and MLD... no Bedxercises tonight... I've been doing too much bopping and chair dancing... I'll over do..... I'm not kidding... I've been kicking up my feet and flailing arms all day.... I'd get to a point on the drawings that I wanted to study on a bit... and I'd start bopping again.... I was manic.. that's it... I'm MMAANNIICC!!! hehehehehehehe Yeah....but you are the good kind! Thanks a million. ~E:) Hi...its me E...again!:)I know I ran my whole story by ya before and as I recall...you didn't offer much of an explaination for the VERY strange tendon pain I get when taking certain combos. Nobody has..so don't think its you...but it has resurfaced again. If you don't mind...I'd like to revisit this vexing question. You are just so good at kicking stuff around. So anyway...its like an invisable trip cord. When I hit it...I know it...but it makes no real sense..and I have never heard of anyone else having this problem. When I was on 50 mcg synthetic and 70 mg armour...I didn't have it...but when I upped the Armour to say 75 mgs the tendon pain showed.So...since I was still hypo I had to pick which would go up and which would go down...Follow?I decided to reduce the synthetic and up the armour. YES..great it worked. I could float up to 120 mgs before the t3 sent me hyper..but since I had to reduce the t4 to (37.5mcg)...I still felt hypo. So...it looked good at first...but didn't really fix me in the end.So...now I've decided to try a middle of the road approach. I've got 45 synthetic and 108 armour. I feel like a lot of stuff is feeling good...but the tendon pain is beginning to threaten again. Its in my rotator cuffs, lower back, hips and funny bones on the knees and elbows. If I feel around my elbow or knee...its getting to feel like a live wire. I've been on this protocol for only 14 days...so it doesn't look too promising for the long run. Grrr.So...I'm thinking I have to drop or add some synthetic...or drop some armour. (Of course I'm only talking 4 mgs armour or 2 mcgs of the synthetic). Just a little tweak. I feel like I'm CLOSE to getting this right and the tendon pain is maybe something that can provide guidance. If you can believe my generous reasoning there. LOLMind you I still feel BOLTED to the furniture...so its not like I'm doing great..but my hands and (coolish) feet are alive now..and that is a BIG improvement over the entire summer. So you have any thoughts about this. I'm hoping to shake something lose here. Extra set of eyes. He heee. Thanks ...you are doing SUCH an outstanding job with everyone.I'll bet you that there is a special place for you in heaven. Hopefully when we are both there you come and visit.~E:) ~EG Connecticut Total-T 16 months ago / 37.5 mg Synthetic/120mg Armour since August 7th Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. 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Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Oh boy.... hope we can keep this all straight? Ready? > IS that like RSD...that chronic pain that can be fixed with pain interrupting pills? > I don't know...I'm wondering if this is a hypo thing or a hyper thing. The lady at the chiropractor's office > has up and down values...going toward hyper where she has done the RAI twice now. She says she has > the same thing...."ALL the time" was her response to me. She even claimed to have the sinus headachey > thing that I have right now. I'm not familiar with RSD. I know a lot of the issues that I dealt with for years subsided as my doses increase while on natural. I had a lot of tendon involvement after the PF. Being on crutches messed up my hamstrings... tendons all the way up into my back.... and all that went away.... I may be wrong.. but this could very well be all linked to the hormones not being right. I was under docs care when I got the PF (plantar Faciitis) and started using crutches to walk.. that was all while my thyroid levels were 'normal' according to the docs. There is some fine tuning that seems to be mandatory in some of us... and some of the includes what type of replacement hormone you are on.. we'll pick at this until we figure it out... It took a while for me to get figured out and I'm still fine tuning stuff as I go. I know that having the hormone levels fluctuate really threw my body for loops, whether going up or down I had major issues with pain... to the point where I've have said, and I honestly mean it, that I won't go through running out of meds again... for me it's sheer hell to be without, the changes my body goes through and then that is repeated when I go back on... I've done that too many times already and I wouldn't be surprised to find that contributed to some of the things with me that have not completely gone away yet. But that is a whole 'nother topic. ******** > Sounds plausible...but here is one thing. I started back to the gym in the spring...and that is when it got > pretty rough with the funny bones getting wild on me. I chalked it up to being over medicated...but then I > realized when I reset my protocol to the wire line...it was still present when I was clearly hypo and really > unable to work out. So the workout moving around connection thing didn't seem to bear out. (Could > be wrong though) > It seems to be something I can make happen or take away when I do certain combo...but you are > right...maybe just one other factor...like healing or working out could be promoting this thing. Maybe its > a transitory thing...I'm not sure. Okay.. now stick on your thinking cap, or pull out your charts/journals. Compare the changes in exercise routines with the adjustment in meds. Make two columns. On the left.. the rough dates when you adjusted exercise routines... on the right.. the rough dates when you did med adjustments. If you don't have the stuff written down.. best guess it. I think this might be pertinent. ********** > It varies. If I hit a wall...I change it. When I sailed up past 116...I kept pushing it upward every week or > so...until I was so overwrought I had to beg out at 135. People kept telling me...that more t3 is better. > Keep going..you are just still hypo. AND...I was still hypo...but the t3 was killing me. I think this might be part of the problem... you're making adjustments too close together. It takes four to six weeks after a dosage adjustment for the body to realize the full effects... I know I harp on this, but it's true. It has to do with the chemistry. It's very possible that by the time your body is catching up with an adjustment that you made a month ago and you realize that it's off.... you're still facing weeks of the other increases still building and affecting you. I'm not critiquing.... just hoping to emphasize how it works. That you are looking at more than a month of lag time between adjustments. A time line might make it easier to understand, I've not posted this for three or four months. This accounts for the T4, whether you are taking synthetic T4 or Armour, Armour also contains T4, and T3. The T3 in the Armour affects you right away... as the T4 builds and conversion kicks in, it increases the T3 in your system even more. I'll use round numbers just to make things easy. Week 1: 25 mcg. Your body is getting some of it.. but not much Week 2: add another 25 mcg for a total of 50 mcg. Your body is getting a bit more... but not all of it, you might feel a bit better, most likely not. Week 3: add another 25 mcg for a total of 75 mcg. Probably still not feeling much better, may or may not be noticing a difference. Week 4: add another 25 mcg for a total of 100 mcg. Starting to notice a difference, want to add more. Week 5: add another 25 mcg for a total of 125 mcg. Your body is feeling different, but you know you need more. Week 6: add another 25 mcg for a total of 150 mcg. Your body is finally getting the full effect of the dosage that you started on week 1. You're feeling like it's doing some good. Week 7: add another 25 mcg for a total of 175 mcg. It's finally noticeable, no doubt about it. This has to be the right dose. You'll hold here for a while. Your body is just now getting the full effect of week 2. Week 8: still holding at 175 mcg. Still feeling good. Your body is just now getting the full effect of week 3. The doc might have you in for labs. the labs are showing 'in normal range' and the doc says you are just fine. Week 9: still holding at 175 mcg. Hmmm. Not sure how you feel. Better than before... but you're not sure. Your body is just now getting the full effect of the dosage increase at week 4. Week 10: not feeling so good. You're a bit nervous, anxious. Weight might be coming off a bit. Your body is just now feeling the effects of week 5 Week 11: You're starting to feel a bit hypo again. Tired, no weight loss. Feeling depressed. Your body is realizing the increase in the hormone levels and TSH is continuing to drop. Whatever your thyroid was putting out is now being slowed or stopped. The total hormone in your system is coming down because of decreased thyroid gland production. Your body is just now getting the full effect of the dosage increase at week 6. Week 12: You're feeling worse. Not as good as before. You must need a dosage increase but you're not sure. You'll wait another week and see how you feel. Your body is just now realizing the full effect of the 175 mcg that you've been taking since week 7. But because of the delayed reaction to the dosage increase and the actual thyroid production changing... you have no idea if you should increase or hold. You do know that you feel like crap. That's a VERY simplified time line. And it IS NOT the same for everyone.. but do you get the picture about the time delay that your body deals with whenever you adjust a dose? That is why we are always saying to wait at least 4 weeks before an increase, better 6 weeks. Why we say to adjust in small increments and wait for your body's reaction before making another increase. I'll just let you contemplate that part.... Now, on to the labs and dosages. 12/2/04 t4free 2.0 (.08-1.8) T3free 315 (230-420) TSH 1.28 Here we are seeing Free T4 that is over it's range.... and Free T3 that is below mid range (325), that's showing poor conversion.... it should be the other way around, free T4 around mid range, Free T3 at the top end of it's range. ************** > I took all armour during the summer in between the two stints on t4. It was better..but I changed doses > almost daily. I kept hopping around...trying to get away from all the symptoms. The doctors told me I > should have no symptoms so..that is what I was trying to achieve. Little did I know...that the torture > chamber is something you have to work your way out of and the exit is tiny. So...I sometimes felt > well...but most of the time...I was not. 8/3/04 -inconsistent high dose of TC Armour only t4free 2.00 (.07-1.80) t3free 4.9 (2.3-5.0) TSH <.02 Here we see Free T4 over the top of it's range... and the Free T3 pretty much at the top of it's range.... that is suggesting that you are still getting in more T4 than you need. ************** 8/01/05 While taking 83mgs armour and 37.mcgs synthetic for a month t4free 1.4 (0.8-1.8) t3free 403 (230-420) tsh .01 Here we have Free T4 just a wee bit over mid range and the Free T3 getting near the top of it's range. Numbers don't look bad........ with these 'ideal ranges' being what 'most' folks feel best at. That doesn't mean that you are 'most folks'.. it's just a 'reference/guideline' Now.... you said that you went to a new doc that had fits over your levels and you went off meds. He was reacting to the TSH, was dumb in not looking at the thyroid levels.... The fact that your TSH went up to over 100 in three weeks points out that you shouldn't have gone off meds. So the doc puts you on 50 mcg synthetic for a month, then ups you to 100 mcg. You had pains.... Doc starts spouting placebo effect or reaction to surgery... Is that in regard to your feeling better on the Armour and not feeling well on synthetic? I got confused with that part. How did you feel when you were on the Armour at got those labs, the ones from last August? Okay... adrenals and cortisol... you were taking some cortisol for a while, stopped yesterday... how long were you taking it and how? As in what time of day? Sleep... you say when driving up the Armour sleep is not good.. right now you've been on the same dose of Armour for a couple of weeks, and sleep is a bit better..... it's still too short a time to know how your body is reacting to this dose. Yeah, I know that you're adjustments have been really small... but your body is still having to deal with ALL the stuff involved with adjusting to dosage changes.... that might be part of what is going on... not giving your body enough time to adjust to a dose before it gets changed again... the body doesn't like to have to keep readjusting stuff. Might the 'live wire' be your body signalling that? Okay... dosing the meds: How are you dosing your meds? I assume the T4 is taken as a single dose in the morning.. the whole 'got to do it on an empty stomach' thing.... > Yes...do take it in morning. No...I take 43.75 mcg (1/4 brown 1/4 white) it in my cheek. I then eat or > drink whatever I want. Take extra white quarter on Sunday. This is probably what is contributing to how your body is dealing with all of this. Synthetic T4 meds are made using sodium. The sodium is added to the artificial T4 molecule to make it shelf stable. The body must remove that sodium molecule to make the synthetic T4 molecule available to the body. The body removes the sodium with stomach acid. You need to swallow synthetic T4 on an empty stomach for that to happen... that means four hours after a meal or one hour before. Putting it in your cheek isn't getting it broken down to usable form. I can't say if it can pass into the blood stream as a Levothyroxine sodium molecule... if it can it's passing in a form that your body can't use. So what ever might be swallowed and broken down is going to be VERY inconsistent.... that could be contributing to fluctuating hormone levels. how about the Armour? Are you taking it all in one dose, or more? If more, how many? And what time(s) as compared to when you take the T4? > I take the Armour in four split doses. 45 in the morning...37.5 in the noon, 15 at four o'clock (when > Oprah comes on) and then 11.75 at 8 pm. Okay.. satisfies my curiosity..... Do you notice and 'ebb and flow' of energy levels or alertness between doses? ************* > My bp is looking good 118/78 and 83 pulse yesterday at 9:30 pm and 121/80 and pulse 67 ant 1:30 > am. I feel better as far as the sweating thing is concerned....and I'm feeling toastier on the inside, although > the feet are still chilled. I feel sort of anxious...but that may be my personality around my mom. She has > boundary issues (VERY aggressive brash British woman). Okay... I'm looking at a pretty significant jump in pulse rate, later in the day.... I need some numbers. Resting pulse rate half a dozen times, starting with when you wake, ending with when you are settled in to bed to sleep.... Note the times you check the pulse and then times you dose the Armour. The increased pulse rate along with the anxious feeling... lean toward adrenals... yep... I KNOW all about living with a parent and boundaries you wouldn't believe my life ( I get either yelled at or belittled when I leave this room during the evening hours or on weekends)... but still.. I'm curious of there is a pattern. You asked about conversion. T4 is the hormone that the body distributes to the tissues of the body, where it is stored for future needs. When the body determines that it needs thyroid hormone for functions, it converts that T4 into T3. It has to pull off and iodine molecule..... Anyway.. the T3 is now available for the body to use. It's the most used of the thyroid hormones, there are two other thyroid hormones that the body also uses. T2, which is linked to metabolism, and T1, linked to brain function. T2 is made from a T3 that has an iodine molecule removed from it..... T1 is made from a T2 that has had an iodine molecule removed from it. If your body is not good at conversion then you are MORE dependant on supplemental T3. Many folks that are hypo have varying levels of conversion - on the 'piss poor' side. So, we have to do everything that we can to help with conversion. Eating mini meals helps, it gives us the consistent energy levels to allow conversion to take place. There is also a mineral involved with conversion. Selenium. During the conversion process a Selenium molecule is what attaches to the iodine molecule that is pulled of the thyroid hormone molecule. If you don't have enough selenium in your diet, you conversion sucks. You didn't list selenium in with your supplements. Check to see how much is in your multi-vitamin. We can safely take up to 400 mcg per day..... over 600 mcg per day for more than 2 weeks can build up to toxic levels and become fatal. You may want to add selenium to your supplements if your multi vitamin doesn't have enough. Mine has 200 mcg in it and I take another 200 mcg per day as a separate tablet. More stuff for you to chew around and ponder... then let me know what comes out... we'll be working this over a few more times until we zero in on a direction you want to go.... Topper () On Tue, 18 Oct 2005 11:30:52 -0700 (PDT) E Gillespie writes: Hey : Thanks for the swift response. I have had a headbanging headache for a week now. Looking at the 'puter screen is a killer. UGH. I'm so excited you want to kick this with me though. AWESOME! between the lines....YES? topper2@... wrote: You refer to wires... tendon pain... knees, elbows..... what if... what if it's along the same lines as the PF (plantar faciitis) that I was diagnosed with.... Basically it's the tendon sheaths being too dry inside so that the tendon can't slide. It's like a brake cable without lubricant.. the tendon is catching inside the sheath... causing pain.... Yeah, I know that's not exactly what you are describing.... but... what if this is the leading edge of it? IS that like RSD...that chronic pain that can be fixed with pain interupting pills? I don't know...I'm wondering if this is a hypo thing or a hyper thing. The lady at the < snip > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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