Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 rderrick@... writes: > Why wouldn't you be for it. Colleges and Universities stem to > make a lot of money and have job security for a while because of > it. I would venture to say that you have not operated an > ambulance or taught a class in rural or fronteir Texas. Ron, There are those of us in favor of a national SOP who do not work for a college and have indeed taught classes in rural and frontier Texas. I understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that the answer is to retain such low minimum standards as now exist. Look at it this way. The document under discussion is a draft and is ultimately modifiable. We have the ability to turn it into something we need, want and can utilize to our benefit if we would just start looking for improvement opportunities instead of ripping it to shreds. In its current version this SOP would be a disaster for EMS in this state....... so lets fix it and make it work for us. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a blockhead. " ~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Don, I have seen few drafts radically change. I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is all said and done. I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the document. Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may actually gain by having a NSOP. I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand to loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without having a NSOP. I remember a case a while back where a paramedic in NY (I think) did a emergency c-section on a decapitated patient. The baby lived, the family was thankful, but the paramedic was charged with practicing medicine without a license and was discharged even though medical control authorized him to do the procedure. The scope of practice was used to plant this guy. I can think of a lot of these types of scenarios. Just my $.02 worth. Schooler RE: Re: Scope of Practice rderrick@... writes: > Why wouldn't you be for it. Colleges and Universities stem to > make a lot of money and have job security for a while because of > it. I would venture to say that you have not operated an > ambulance or taught a class in rural or fronteir Texas. Ron, There are those of us in favor of a national SOP who do not work for a college and have indeed taught classes in rural and frontier Texas. I understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that the answer is to retain such low minimum standards as now exist. Look at it this way. The document under discussion is a draft and is ultimately modifiable. We have the ability to turn it into something we need, want and can utilize to our benefit if we would just start looking for improvement opportunities instead of ripping it to shreds. In its current version this SOP would be a disaster for EMS in this state....... so lets fix it and make it work for us. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a blockhead. " ~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Don, I have seen few drafts radically change. I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is all said and done. I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the document. Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may actually gain by having a NSOP. I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand to loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without having a NSOP. I remember a case a while back where a paramedic in NY (I think) did a emergency c-section on a decapitated patient. The baby lived, the family was thankful, but the paramedic was charged with practicing medicine without a license and was discharged even though medical control authorized him to do the procedure. The scope of practice was used to plant this guy. I can think of a lot of these types of scenarios. Just my $.02 worth. Schooler RE: Re: Scope of Practice rderrick@... writes: > Why wouldn't you be for it. Colleges and Universities stem to > make a lot of money and have job security for a while because of > it. I would venture to say that you have not operated an > ambulance or taught a class in rural or fronteir Texas. Ron, There are those of us in favor of a national SOP who do not work for a college and have indeed taught classes in rural and frontier Texas. I understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that the answer is to retain such low minimum standards as now exist. Look at it this way. The document under discussion is a draft and is ultimately modifiable. We have the ability to turn it into something we need, want and can utilize to our benefit if we would just start looking for improvement opportunities instead of ripping it to shreds. In its current version this SOP would be a disaster for EMS in this state....... so lets fix it and make it work for us. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " The vanity of teaching doth oft tempt a man to forget that he is a blockhead. " ~~ Saville, Marquis of Halifax ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 >> Kenny, You are among the few. << There are more of us than you know. >> Texas does NOT NEED a SOP, as it would only bring the level of care EMS provides in Texas down to an ECA level of care for ALL levels of care. << Could it be that I have a different draft of the National Scope of Practice? The document I'm reading does not limit all care within the state of Texas to the ECA level. I still see a paramedic category with providers who function as they do today. >> It shows that you are a College because this would make your collge more money, as you would have to provide the advanced education for those that would want to spend the money on a degree.<< If no one will invest the years to acquire the education (as has been proposed by various members of this listerver), then who is going to come to " my " school? There will still be a paramedic category with the new SOP and most EMS providers will still attend that type of class. BTW, " my " school could already offer a 4-year degree in EMS, as could many colleges. We wouldn't need a National Scope of Practice for that. Regardless of the tone of some of the messages posted here, the EMS sky is not falling. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 >> Kenny, You are among the few. << There are more of us than you know. >> Texas does NOT NEED a SOP, as it would only bring the level of care EMS provides in Texas down to an ECA level of care for ALL levels of care. << Could it be that I have a different draft of the National Scope of Practice? The document I'm reading does not limit all care within the state of Texas to the ECA level. I still see a paramedic category with providers who function as they do today. >> It shows that you are a College because this would make your collge more money, as you would have to provide the advanced education for those that would want to spend the money on a degree.<< If no one will invest the years to acquire the education (as has been proposed by various members of this listerver), then who is going to come to " my " school? There will still be a paramedic category with the new SOP and most EMS providers will still attend that type of class. BTW, " my " school could already offer a 4-year degree in EMS, as could many colleges. We wouldn't need a National Scope of Practice for that. Regardless of the tone of some of the messages posted here, the EMS sky is not falling. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 >> Kenny, You are among the few. << There are more of us than you know. >> Texas does NOT NEED a SOP, as it would only bring the level of care EMS provides in Texas down to an ECA level of care for ALL levels of care. << Could it be that I have a different draft of the National Scope of Practice? The document I'm reading does not limit all care within the state of Texas to the ECA level. I still see a paramedic category with providers who function as they do today. >> It shows that you are a College because this would make your collge more money, as you would have to provide the advanced education for those that would want to spend the money on a degree.<< If no one will invest the years to acquire the education (as has been proposed by various members of this listerver), then who is going to come to " my " school? There will still be a paramedic category with the new SOP and most EMS providers will still attend that type of class. BTW, " my " school could already offer a 4-year degree in EMS, as could many colleges. We wouldn't need a National Scope of Practice for that. Regardless of the tone of some of the messages posted here, the EMS sky is not falling. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Kenny, I in no way disagree with you about the statement that there are more of us than you know, but what I question is why are you all so quite as to why this is a good thing for EMS in Texas? Would you consider listing what you find appealing in the document and your reason for it. I believe that there needs to be a positive side presented not just a blanket statement that it is good. I have read and heard many reasons why it's bad for me/us, now I would like to hear why it may be good for me/us. > > >> Kenny, You are among the few. << > > There are more of us than you know. > > > >> Texas does NOT NEED a SOP, as it would only bring the level of > care EMS provides in Texas down to an ECA level of care for ALL > levels of care. << > > Could it be that I have a different draft of the National Scope of > Practice? The document I'm reading does not limit all care within > the state of Texas to the ECA level. I still see a paramedic > category with providers who function as they do today. > > > >> It shows that you are a College because this would make your > collge more money, as you would have to provide the advanced > education for those that would want to spend the money on a degree.<< > > If no one will invest the years to acquire the education (as has > been proposed by various members of this listerver), then who is > going to come to " my " school? There will still be a paramedic > category with the new SOP and most EMS providers will still attend > that type of class. > > BTW, " my " school could already offer a 4-year degree in EMS, as > could many colleges. We wouldn't need a National Scope of Practice > for that. > > Regardless of the tone of some of the messages posted here, the EMS > sky is not falling. > > Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 >>From: D.E. (Donn) >>There are those of us in favor of a national SOP who do not work for a >>college and have indeed taught classes in rural and frontier Texas. I >>understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that the answer is to >>retain such low minimum standards as now exist. Donn makes a good point, I too am in favor of " a " national SoP, but NOT " this " national SoP. That's what is important to understand here. The philosphy behind it is great, the first draft leaves a lot to be desired. The SoP needs to lay the foudnations, but each state must maintain some autonomy. >>Look at it this way. The document under discussion is a draft and is >>ultimately modifiable. We have the ability to turn it into something we >>need, want and can utilize to our benefit if we would just start looking for >>improvement opportunities instead of ripping it to shreds. In its current >>version this SOP would be a disaster for EMS in this state....... so lets >>fix it and make it work for us. Again, to the description, the SoP is a train running through the nation, we need to get on it, and help define it's course, if we stand in front of it hoping to stop it, we'll get run over. Although the document is a draft, there is a limited amount of time for it to be completed, so if you have not taken the survey and issued comments, please take the time to do it now. If you need the links to places to put forth your comments, let me know, I'll repost. We need some way to insure that the medics that are performing specific skills, are 'capable' of performing those skills, we need some way to insure the integrity of the education that services are receiving and being delivered. This document needs to be a secure and solid foundation for things to come, however, in it's present state, it is not that. For those that are in favor of it in it's current form, please forward your comments to me about what impact you think this would have on Texas EMS as a whole, I am truly curious. Or better yet, waht changes would you like to see? Is it the entire document that you don't like? Specific wording? 1 single pargraph? Or the intent behind the whole thing? Mike " Tater Salad " Hatfield EMT-P EMStock 2005!! Coming soon!!! www.emstock.com www.temsf.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 >>From: D.E. (Donn) >>There are those of us in favor of a national SOP who do not work for a >>college and have indeed taught classes in rural and frontier Texas. I >>understand where you are coming from, but do not agree that the answer is to >>retain such low minimum standards as now exist. Donn makes a good point, I too am in favor of " a " national SoP, but NOT " this " national SoP. That's what is important to understand here. The philosphy behind it is great, the first draft leaves a lot to be desired. The SoP needs to lay the foudnations, but each state must maintain some autonomy. >>Look at it this way. The document under discussion is a draft and is >>ultimately modifiable. We have the ability to turn it into something we >>need, want and can utilize to our benefit if we would just start looking for >>improvement opportunities instead of ripping it to shreds. In its current >>version this SOP would be a disaster for EMS in this state....... so lets >>fix it and make it work for us. Again, to the description, the SoP is a train running through the nation, we need to get on it, and help define it's course, if we stand in front of it hoping to stop it, we'll get run over. Although the document is a draft, there is a limited amount of time for it to be completed, so if you have not taken the survey and issued comments, please take the time to do it now. If you need the links to places to put forth your comments, let me know, I'll repost. We need some way to insure that the medics that are performing specific skills, are 'capable' of performing those skills, we need some way to insure the integrity of the education that services are receiving and being delivered. This document needs to be a secure and solid foundation for things to come, however, in it's present state, it is not that. For those that are in favor of it in it's current form, please forward your comments to me about what impact you think this would have on Texas EMS as a whole, I am truly curious. Or better yet, waht changes would you like to see? Is it the entire document that you don't like? Specific wording? 1 single pargraph? Or the intent behind the whole thing? Mike " Tater Salad " Hatfield EMT-P EMStock 2005!! Coming soon!!! www.emstock.com www.temsf.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when > it is all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under > a scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may > actually gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how > we are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand > to loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when > it is all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under > a scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may > actually gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how > we are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand > to loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when > it is all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under > a scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may > actually gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how > we are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand > to loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hatfield, writes: > For those that are in favor of it in it's current form, please > forward your comments to me about what impact you think this I'd be curious if anyone responds. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. " ~~ Mizner ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hatfield, writes: > For those that are in favor of it in it's current form, please > forward your comments to me about what impact you think this I'd be curious if anyone responds. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. " ~~ Mizner ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Hatfield, writes: > For those that are in favor of it in it's current form, please > forward your comments to me about what impact you think this I'd be curious if anyone responds. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. " ~~ Mizner ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Donn, Firstly, my sincerest appologies for misspelling your name. I would suspect that you and I would not disagree about much. After years of sitting mostly silent on this listserver I have found that I agree with the majority of your posts. I understand why people want the NSoP and can appreciate that it has some merit if done correctly. I am not sure that simply disagreeing with you on certain points should be considered in-fighting or bickering. I also don't think we can simply gripe about it and not try to change it. I hope you can prove me wrong by us all making the final draft unrecognizable to this first draft. I would certainly prefer a stratified plan such as Dr. Bledsoe's to a pure, one size fits all model that we have been presented. Schooler RE: Re: Scope of Practice Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is > all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a > scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may actually > gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we > are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand to > loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Donn, Firstly, my sincerest appologies for misspelling your name. I would suspect that you and I would not disagree about much. After years of sitting mostly silent on this listserver I have found that I agree with the majority of your posts. I understand why people want the NSoP and can appreciate that it has some merit if done correctly. I am not sure that simply disagreeing with you on certain points should be considered in-fighting or bickering. I also don't think we can simply gripe about it and not try to change it. I hope you can prove me wrong by us all making the final draft unrecognizable to this first draft. I would certainly prefer a stratified plan such as Dr. Bledsoe's to a pure, one size fits all model that we have been presented. Schooler RE: Re: Scope of Practice Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is > all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a > scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may actually > gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we > are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand to > loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 Donn, Firstly, my sincerest appologies for misspelling your name. I would suspect that you and I would not disagree about much. After years of sitting mostly silent on this listserver I have found that I agree with the majority of your posts. I understand why people want the NSoP and can appreciate that it has some merit if done correctly. I am not sure that simply disagreeing with you on certain points should be considered in-fighting or bickering. I also don't think we can simply gripe about it and not try to change it. I hope you can prove me wrong by us all making the final draft unrecognizable to this first draft. I would certainly prefer a stratified plan such as Dr. Bledsoe's to a pure, one size fits all model that we have been presented. Schooler RE: Re: Scope of Practice Schooler writes: > Don, The name is Donn, with two n's. > I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is > all said and done. Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we must try. > I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the > document. With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand. > Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a > scope of practice. What do they have to loose? Many may actually > gain by having a NSOP. You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. > I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we > are going to respond as a state. How much money would we stand to > loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore > loose federal funds? Also, I think standards can be enforced without > having a NSOP. You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity. As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time, and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of having any impact on the final document is minimal. Regards, Donn ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P " Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the customer tries to get as little he can for his money. " ~~ Max Forman ~~ Don't Miss EMStock 2005 www.EMStock.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 How is make a " couple more levels for parmaedics " a good thing? With our current pay scale, we are never going to get quality people to go through a 4 year program. Why would someone go to school for 4 years to make 11 bucks an hour, when you can get your BSN and make 3 times that much. In Southeast Texas, you can go to work for the Roads and Bridges Department of any county and/or city, and get paid more then the county/city paramedics do. Weather is about SOP's, pay, or whatever, until we all get together, and form one LARGE group, no one is going to listen to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 In our entire service area of approximately 150 square miles, there is not a single doctor's office. Why? I suspect that it is because there is not enough business (patients) to provide the required/desired financial results. In other words, if the need/desire/customers (patients) don't exist that are necessary to support a business, the business won't exist. In other words, if you (or an area) can't support or pay for something, you won't have it. Relevant to this discussion or not? You decide for yourselves. I'm just expressing some rambling thoughts. Maxine Pate ---- Original message ---- Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:42:39 -0600 From: " Tinker " jtinker@... > Look at nurses, docs, etc. They have standardization. They are strong and >they get paid a hell of a lot better than we do and they get treated better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 In our entire service area of approximately 150 square miles, there is not a single doctor's office. Why? I suspect that it is because there is not enough business (patients) to provide the required/desired financial results. In other words, if the need/desire/customers (patients) don't exist that are necessary to support a business, the business won't exist. In other words, if you (or an area) can't support or pay for something, you won't have it. Relevant to this discussion or not? You decide for yourselves. I'm just expressing some rambling thoughts. Maxine Pate ---- Original message ---- Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:42:39 -0600 From: " Tinker " jtinker@... > Look at nurses, docs, etc. They have standardization. They are strong and >they get paid a hell of a lot better than we do and they get treated better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 In our entire service area of approximately 150 square miles, there is not a single doctor's office. Why? I suspect that it is because there is not enough business (patients) to provide the required/desired financial results. In other words, if the need/desire/customers (patients) don't exist that are necessary to support a business, the business won't exist. In other words, if you (or an area) can't support or pay for something, you won't have it. Relevant to this discussion or not? You decide for yourselves. I'm just expressing some rambling thoughts. Maxine Pate ---- Original message ---- Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:42:39 -0600 From: " Tinker " jtinker@... > Look at nurses, docs, etc. They have standardization. They are strong and >they get paid a hell of a lot better than we do and they get treated better too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2004 Report Share Posted December 3, 2004 , Misspelling my name isn't a problem. Something I've grown accoustomed to, but I do like to correct it when I see it. I hope I didn't give the impression that I thought we were bickering. That is far from correct. We are having a civil debate, which is what I wish would happen on a regular basis on this list. My mention of bickering was reference to the way we have done it here in the past. It seems that often when we discuss these polarizing topics some are inclined to be less than civil. Maybe this debate will prove me incorrect. Regards, Donn p.s. Please forgive the trash HTML stuff. I'm on the road and having to use web mail. > > <html><body> > > > <tt> > Donn,<BR> > <BR> > Firstly, my sincerest appologies for misspelling your name. & nbsp; & nbsp; I would<BR> > suspect that you and I would not disagree about much. & nbsp; After years of<BR> > sitting mostly silent on this listserver I have found that I agree with<BR> > the majority of your posts. & nbsp; I understand why people want the NSoP and<BR> > can appreciate that it has some merit if done correctly. & nbsp; I am not sure<BR> > that simply disagreeing with you on certain points should be considered<BR> > in-fighting or bickering. & nbsp; I also don't think we can simply gripe about<BR> > it and not try to change it. & nbsp; <BR> > <BR> > I hope you can prove me wrong by us all making the final draft<BR> > unrecognizable to this first draft. & nbsp; I would certainly prefer a<BR> > stratified plan such as Dr. Bledsoe's to a pure, one size fits all model<BR> > that we have been presented. & nbsp; <BR> > <BR> > Schooler<BR> > <BR> > RE: Re: Scope of Practice<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > Schooler writes: <BR> > <BR> > & gt; Don,<BR> > <BR> > The name is Donn, with two n's.<BR> > <BR> > & gt; I don't think we will see a tremendously different document when it is<BR> > <BR> > & gt; all said and done.<BR> > <BR> > Perhaps not, but the NSoP will eventually become reality and if all we<BR> > are doing is carping and complaining, we no chance whatsoever of<BR> > offering input into the final document. What I'd like to do more than<BR> > anything else is prove you wrong, but the odds are against us. Still, we<BR> > must try.<BR> > <BR> > & gt; I think that Texas EMS will have little ability to change the <BR> > & gt; document.<BR> > <BR> > With this I'm afraid I have to agree, but only because we probably won't<BR> > be able to unite and compromise enough or in time to make a stand.<BR> > <BR> > & gt; Lets face it, most EMS across the country already operates under a <BR> > & gt; scope of practice. & nbsp; What do they have to loose? & nbsp; Many may actually <BR> > & gt; gain by having a NSOP.<BR> > <BR> > You are absolutely correct sir, and this is the reason the NSoP will<BR> > happen regardless of how we Texans feel about it. <BR> > <BR> > & gt; I think we need to think about the impact on Texas and decide how we <BR> > & gt; are going to respond as a state. & nbsp; How much money would we stand to <BR> > & gt; loose as a state if we chose to not follow the NSOP and therefore <BR> > & gt; loose federal funds? & nbsp; Also, I think standards can be enforced without <BR> > & gt; having a NSOP.<BR> > <BR> > You see, we don't disagree after all. All we need do is unite under a<BR> > single banner, compromise amongst ourselves, find strong representation<BR> > (EMSAT?) and enter the fracas as a single, determined, informed entity.<BR> > <BR> > As I said earlier, as it stands the draft NSoP would be ruinous for<BR> > Texas EMS. We absolutely must make a stand while there is still time,<BR> > and we must present ourselves properly. If we go forward have in the<BR> > past; as a bickering, infighting, disorganized mob, the likelihood of<BR> > having any impact on the final document is minimal.<BR> > <BR> > Regards,<BR> > Donn<BR> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<BR> > D.E. (Donn) , LP, NREMT-P<BR> > <BR> > & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & quot;Education seems to be in America the only commodity of which the<BR> > customer tries to get as little he can for his money. & quot;<BR> > & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; ~~ Max Forman ~~<BR> > <BR> > Don't Miss EMStock 2005<BR> > www.EMStock.com<BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > <BR> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 5, 2004 Report Share Posted December 5, 2004 To all, I have read with interest the discussion of the SoP. Good and valid points have been made. Here's my $0.02 worth. MDs and RNs are subject to a SoP in the form of their respective Practice Acts which have been instituted via the Texas legislature. They are written differently than the proposed EMS SoP and do not go into the minutae of skills; but they do define what you can and cannot do. If we must have a SoP perhaps we should look at these documents. The current EMS SoP is a flawed document, but it is a beginning. The question boils down to: " Who are we and what do we want? " Until we settle that, no progress can be made. We must define ourselves and our mission or someone else will do it for us. That is exactly what we are facing. Yes, EMS in Texas if facing great challenges. We are being asked to define and develop a " Profession " . This is not an easy task and requires " Education " as its backbone. The " Profession " then must accept " Regulation " to protect the body public. A Board of EMS Examiners (similar to the Board of Nurese Examiners) is essential to the regulation and education requirements. Until we are recognized politically and legally as a " Profession " and an " Essential Service " , we have little hope of making a living wage. (As an aside to those who are complaining about an hourly wage of $9.00 and $10.00; would you come to Marfa and work for $6.35 an hour? Some of us have further to go up the food chain than others (: ) Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we were to change the " titles " of Paramedics and base their skill level on these titles.....would that not force all systems to become tiered systems? Doesn't a tiered system open one up for liability (i.e. why did I get a Level 1 and a Level 2 Paramedic, when my neighbor got a Level 2 and a Level 4 Paramedic)? The DFW area has seen a dramatic decrease in the number of Paramedics that complete the process now that it has changed from a 6-9 month program to a 14-16 month program. I may be mistaken, but I understand that the schools have approximately 4-6 people complete the programs now....I'm sure that would change dramatically if you had to have a 4 year degree to become a Paramedic. I apologize if all of this has been stated previously, I'm just now catching up my email. Macara Scope of practice Would it be sufficient to add a level of Paramedic between the SoP levels of Paramedic and Advanced level Paramedic, and allow that level to function at what we do now? If we change the names to Paramedic I, II, and III; level I being the Paramedic described in the SoP, level III being the Advanced Practice Paramedic described in the SoP, and add level II. Paramedic II, Build upon the foundation of the Paramedic I, and add the special skills that are being requested by the more rural departments. important to note that those services not wishing to utilize the Paramedic II level, can always upgrade their services by training their staff. This level of paramedic has the training necessary to perform the follwowing skills, including, but not limited to, RSI, initiate and maintain blood products, retrograde intubation, and the use of colloid solutions. Further, with additional training which is offered according to nationally accepted standards, needed skills could be authorized by Medical Directors, offering the autonomy that we are looking for. A ceiling may be needed here. Create a list of 'special skills' and set forth a minimum requirement for annual training, based upon nationally accepted standards. paramedic I will placate the large metro areas and the large FD based EMS services looking to offer lower MICU level or tiered response. Advanced practice stays in to placate the colleges and universities, and level II will allow the rural areas to continue to offer what they now consider the minimum acceptable standard of care. Medical Directors still have autonomy TO A DEGREE, just as they do now. Education is the key to this, minimum standards MUST BE MET. CE programs and educational opportunities must be brought up to nationally accepted standards. Skills training and evaluation must be according to a nationally accepted standard. higher education is in the air, but level II could probably be lsited as an AS degree while level III could easily be defined as a BS degree. Education is the key, and the sticking point, the further out of town we get, the more training we need, the more training we need, the more education we need, the more education we need, the more money we need, yet the further we are from town, the less money there is to spend, vicous circle. I don't particularly like the prohbited skills verbiage, there is just something I don't like about it. May be the fact that I just can't stand being told I 'can't' do something (boy would my mother be proud to hear me finally admit that). But in reality, some ceiling must be made. As Paramedics, we don't suture in the field, why are we afraid to put that in writing? It's walking on eggshells to get everyone to agree, but it might need to be done. OK, OK, probably not as creative as Mr. Bledson, but it's an alternative. Right now, that's what we need, we all agree that there are specific problems with the SoP, but we need to make some quick movement in getting our opinions known, as well as any suggestions that we have. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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