Re: AA & Catholicism & religion in general (was Going to church)

[Guest guest]

And here is an interesting quote from the following URL:

http://www.siscom.net/~cr1mson/reportonreligiousaccom.html

In the past,

attendance at chapel in the Service academies was mandatory for all

cadets or midshipmen until it was challenged and reversed

in the 1972 case of v. Laird [446 F. 2d 283 (DC Cir 1971),

cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1076 (1972)]. The legitimacy

and authority of the Army's religious program, which includes

chaplains, chaplain assistants, chapels, and sizable financial

expenditures, were also questioned as a violation of the First

Amendment in the case of Katcoff v. Marsh [846184 (2d Cir. 22

January 1985)]. The Federal Court ruled this religious program did not

violate the First Amendment. It noted that there were

unique military interests and special needs to support soldiers in the

free exercise of their religion. It also indicated that the

religious program should be " neutral, " limiting competition between

religious faith groups and denominations, and voluntary, " by

leaving the practice of religion solely to the individual soldier, who

is free to worship or not as he chooses, without fear of any

discipline or stigma. "

>

> > Ditto. I am especially interested in the history of AA coercion. I

> > think Stuart mentioned something about an early case in the

1960's.

> >

> > Jim

>

> Jim, I would also like to know exactly when and who the first person

> was who was government coerced into AA. If Stuart is talking about

> the land case mentioned in Schaler's " Addiction is a Choice " ,

then

> I beleive that was not until the 80's. I've got a copy I've loaned

> out and will check it later. It appears that coercion in the

military

> began in the 60's. The following is taken from a piece I wrote

called

> " U.S. Military Exporting Spiritual Tyranny. " :

>

> The March-April 1985 issue of the pro-12 step magazine,

" Alcoholism " ,

> dedicated its entire issue to alcohol/drug treatment in

> the military with " A Salute to the Military. " Fifteen years ago all

> treatment in the military was based on the 12 steps. It still is.

> Within this one issue of this one magazine there is enough

information

> for me expose yet another channel through which the U.S.

> government exports its horribly wicked spiritual tyranny abroad. I

> will quote from several articles, all of which were written by

> active duty and retired officers of the U.S. Navy. The first

article's

> title speaks for itself and tells how 12-step treatment began in

> the Navy:

>

> " AA 12th-Steps the Armed Services " By Captain ph J. Zuska

Medical

> Corps, USN (Ret.)

>

> " I was fortunate to be on active duty one day when a man with a

> big heart came to call

> on the Navy. Dick Jewell, a retired Navy commander, who was six

> months sober in AA,

> decided one day in early February, 1965 to call on the Long

> Beach, CA Naval Base

> because he remembered from his own active duty career that

> alcoholism was not uncommon

> and he wanted to share his new-found knowledge...He offered to

> conduct a weekly AA

> meeting for us, asking that we assign individuals to that

meeting

> either as medical

> referrals or with alcohol related disciplinary problems. Dick

> Jewell, in effect, made

> a twelfth step call on the Navy....it became obvious that our

men

> and women were

> benefiting from their enforced* AA attendance. "

>

> Of course it was " obvious " , because anyone who resisted or even

voiced

> disapproval would find themselves on the streets,

> stigmatized, and unemployed, which is precisely where I found myself

> twenty years after Cdr. Jewell " 12th stepped the Armed

> Services. "

>

> Yes, folks, notice that Captain Zuska uses the word " enforced " .

[Guest guest]

And here is an interesting quote from the following URL:

http://www.siscom.net/~cr1mson/reportonreligiousaccom.html

In the past,

attendance at chapel in the Service academies was mandatory for all

cadets or midshipmen until it was challenged and reversed

in the 1972 case of v. Laird [446 F. 2d 283 (DC Cir 1971),

cert. denied, 409 U.S. 1076 (1972)]. The legitimacy

and authority of the Army's religious program, which includes

chaplains, chaplain assistants, chapels, and sizable financial

expenditures, were also questioned as a violation of the First

Amendment in the case of Katcoff v. Marsh [846184 (2d Cir. 22

January 1985)]. The Federal Court ruled this religious program did not

violate the First Amendment. It noted that there were

unique military interests and special needs to support soldiers in the

free exercise of their religion. It also indicated that the

religious program should be " neutral, " limiting competition between

religious faith groups and denominations, and voluntary, " by

leaving the practice of religion solely to the individual soldier, who

is free to worship or not as he chooses, without fear of any

discipline or stigma. "

>

> > Ditto. I am especially interested in the history of AA coercion. I

> > think Stuart mentioned something about an early case in the

1960's.

> >

> > Jim

>

> Jim, I would also like to know exactly when and who the first person

> was who was government coerced into AA. If Stuart is talking about

> the land case mentioned in Schaler's " Addiction is a Choice " ,

then

> I beleive that was not until the 80's. I've got a copy I've loaned

> out and will check it later. It appears that coercion in the

military

> began in the 60's. The following is taken from a piece I wrote

called

> " U.S. Military Exporting Spiritual Tyranny. " :

>

> The March-April 1985 issue of the pro-12 step magazine,

" Alcoholism " ,

> dedicated its entire issue to alcohol/drug treatment in

> the military with " A Salute to the Military. " Fifteen years ago all

> treatment in the military was based on the 12 steps. It still is.

> Within this one issue of this one magazine there is enough

information

> for me expose yet another channel through which the U.S.

> government exports its horribly wicked spiritual tyranny abroad. I

> will quote from several articles, all of which were written by

> active duty and retired officers of the U.S. Navy. The first

article's

> title speaks for itself and tells how 12-step treatment began in

> the Navy:

>

> " AA 12th-Steps the Armed Services " By Captain ph J. Zuska

Medical

> Corps, USN (Ret.)

>

> " I was fortunate to be on active duty one day when a man with a

> big heart came to call

> on the Navy. Dick Jewell, a retired Navy commander, who was six

> months sober in AA,

> decided one day in early February, 1965 to call on the Long

> Beach, CA Naval Base

> because he remembered from his own active duty career that

> alcoholism was not uncommon

> and he wanted to share his new-found knowledge...He offered to

> conduct a weekly AA

> meeting for us, asking that we assign individuals to that

meeting

> either as medical

> referrals or with alcohol related disciplinary problems. Dick

> Jewell, in effect, made

> a twelfth step call on the Navy....it became obvious that our

men

> and women were

> benefiting from their enforced* AA attendance. "

>

> Of course it was " obvious " , because anyone who resisted or even

voiced

> disapproval would find themselves on the streets,

> stigmatized, and unemployed, which is precisely where I found myself

> twenty years after Cdr. Jewell " 12th stepped the Armed

> Services. "

>

> Yes, folks, notice that Captain Zuska uses the word " enforced " .

[Guest guest]

>

> Yeah - and interestingly enough (and I'll have to look up my source

> again for this), AA enjoyed a rather high success rate back then.

AA certainly CLAIMED a high rate of success for its early years. In

the famous Saturday Evening Post article by Jack , I think

they even claimed a 100 percent cure rate --except for psychopaths.

When claimed a 50% + 25% cure rate in the 1955 preface, he

qualified it by saying for those that sincerely tried or something to

that effect.

The earliest independent report on AA success rates that I am aware

of is from a sympathetic Australian doctor in the 1940s. IIRC, he

estimated a 10 percent cure rate.

[Guest guest]

>

> Yeah - and interestingly enough (and I'll have to look up my source

> again for this), AA enjoyed a rather high success rate back then.

AA certainly CLAIMED a high rate of success for its early years. In

the famous Saturday Evening Post article by Jack , I think

they even claimed a 100 percent cure rate --except for psychopaths.

When claimed a 50% + 25% cure rate in the 1955 preface, he

qualified it by saying for those that sincerely tried or something to

that effect.

The earliest independent report on AA success rates that I am aware

of is from a sympathetic Australian doctor in the 1940s. IIRC, he

estimated a 10 percent cure rate.

[Guest guest]

>

> Yeah - and interestingly enough (and I'll have to look up my source

> again for this), AA enjoyed a rather high success rate back then.

AA certainly CLAIMED a high rate of success for its early years. In

the famous Saturday Evening Post article by Jack , I think

they even claimed a 100 percent cure rate --except for psychopaths.

When claimed a 50% + 25% cure rate in the 1955 preface, he

qualified it by saying for those that sincerely tried or something to

that effect.

The earliest independent report on AA success rates that I am aware

of is from a sympathetic Australian doctor in the 1940s. IIRC, he

estimated a 10 percent cure rate.

[Guest guest]

>

> Ditto. I am especially interested in the history of AA coercion. I

> think Stuart mentioned something about an early case in the 1960's.

>

> Jim

Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag before you

click on this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

[Guest guest]

>

> Ditto. I am especially interested in the history of AA coercion. I

> think Stuart mentioned something about an early case in the 1960's.

>

> Jim

Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag before you

click on this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

[Guest guest]

>

> Ditto. I am especially interested in the history of AA coercion. I

> think Stuart mentioned something about an early case in the 1960's.

>

> Jim

Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag before you

click on this:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

[Guest guest]

> Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

> the care of the brick.

>

> and,

>

> Step 5: Admitted to the brick, to ourselves, and to another

> human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Hi ,

The one I kept hearing was " doorknob " or alternatively, " headboard. "

Eek.

Great post, . No one ever talked about this when I was in the

rooms except to try to convince me and others to convert. The more I

read and think about it, the more I'm sure that this is really what

its all about. It is a religious movement with an unending supply of

souls...

> Clearly, not just anything is going to work. But, consider this

> excerpt from the section on step two in the " 12 Steps And 12

> Traditions " ...

>

> > You can, if you wish, make A.A.,itself your `higher power.'

> > Here's a very large group of people who have solved their

> > alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power

> > greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution.

> > Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith

> > will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed

> > the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that,

> > once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of

> > the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed,

> > they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began

> > to talk of God.

>

> Hmmm - allowing AA to be the " Higher Power " ? And it appears that

> this only means it's a large organization with some answers that the

> newcomer doesn't have. But remember, this newcomer will later be

> expected to pray to this HP, ask the HP to remove all defects of

> character, etc.

>

> Praying to a brick, or to an organization of people, or to anything

> you please, for that matter - well, there's a word for that. It's

> called " idolatry " . If " idolatry " sounds a little too old-fashioned,

> how about " blasphemy " or " heresy " ? Saying that Jesus was an

> alcoholic probably doesn't qualify for either of those, but praying

> to a brick or to AA and expecting either to hear your prayers and

act

> on them almost certainly would.

>

> Even if an AA member conceptualizes their HP as their own

> understanding of a supreme being, he or she has to accept the fact

> that they belong to an organization which makes some fundamental

> statements about what their relationship to a supreme being should

> be, and expects its members to adhere to those rules.

Yes!

> substitution of " disease " for " sin "

> denial of responsibility for one's actions

> commonly found belief among AA members that the " Big Book " is

> divinely inspired

> requirement of confession of sins, but not of actual repentance,

> within the twelve steps

> lack of any clear-cut standard for what constitutes " sin " , since

> " God " can be anything one wants

>

> Again, I'd have much less of a problem with this if AA would simply

> *admit* that it is religious. Instead, it cloaks itself in the

> mantle of " spirituality " , denying its religious nature.

> Incidentally, this is a pretty common tactic among more well-known

> cults, which sometimes portray themselves as " religious study

> organizations " or something similar to disguise their nature.

>

> The effect is the same as with a more run-of-the-mill cult, however.

> By the time a new member realizes the fundamental conflicts between

> AA and his or her beliefs, the brainwashing is already well under

> way, and it may be too late. Although phrases like " the steps are

> just suggestions " and " take what you want and leave the rest " are

> bandied about in AA, the real message is crystal clear: Work the

> steps or die.

This is exactly the message I got with the modification: " Work the

steps, or DRINK yourself to death. " I also ran into the idea that

even if a person wasn't drinking - if they weren't sober the AA way

it wouldn't last, stick, and eventually they too would drink and die.

This was the " dry drunk " as the term was used in my meetings.

See you,

[Guest guest]

> Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

> the care of the brick.

>

> and,

>

> Step 5: Admitted to the brick, to ourselves, and to another

> human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Hi ,

The one I kept hearing was " doorknob " or alternatively, " headboard. "

Eek.

Great post, . No one ever talked about this when I was in the

rooms except to try to convince me and others to convert. The more I

read and think about it, the more I'm sure that this is really what

its all about. It is a religious movement with an unending supply of

souls...

> Clearly, not just anything is going to work. But, consider this

> excerpt from the section on step two in the " 12 Steps And 12

> Traditions " ...

>

> > You can, if you wish, make A.A.,itself your `higher power.'

> > Here's a very large group of people who have solved their

> > alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power

> > greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution.

> > Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith

> > will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed

> > the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that,

> > once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of

> > the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed,

> > they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began

> > to talk of God.

>

> Hmmm - allowing AA to be the " Higher Power " ? And it appears that

> this only means it's a large organization with some answers that the

> newcomer doesn't have. But remember, this newcomer will later be

> expected to pray to this HP, ask the HP to remove all defects of

> character, etc.

>

> Praying to a brick, or to an organization of people, or to anything

> you please, for that matter - well, there's a word for that. It's

> called " idolatry " . If " idolatry " sounds a little too old-fashioned,

> how about " blasphemy " or " heresy " ? Saying that Jesus was an

> alcoholic probably doesn't qualify for either of those, but praying

> to a brick or to AA and expecting either to hear your prayers and

act

> on them almost certainly would.

>

> Even if an AA member conceptualizes their HP as their own

> understanding of a supreme being, he or she has to accept the fact

> that they belong to an organization which makes some fundamental

> statements about what their relationship to a supreme being should

> be, and expects its members to adhere to those rules.

Yes!

> substitution of " disease " for " sin "

> denial of responsibility for one's actions

> commonly found belief among AA members that the " Big Book " is

> divinely inspired

> requirement of confession of sins, but not of actual repentance,

> within the twelve steps

> lack of any clear-cut standard for what constitutes " sin " , since

> " God " can be anything one wants

>

> Again, I'd have much less of a problem with this if AA would simply

> *admit* that it is religious. Instead, it cloaks itself in the

> mantle of " spirituality " , denying its religious nature.

> Incidentally, this is a pretty common tactic among more well-known

> cults, which sometimes portray themselves as " religious study

> organizations " or something similar to disguise their nature.

>

> The effect is the same as with a more run-of-the-mill cult, however.

> By the time a new member realizes the fundamental conflicts between

> AA and his or her beliefs, the brainwashing is already well under

> way, and it may be too late. Although phrases like " the steps are

> just suggestions " and " take what you want and leave the rest " are

> bandied about in AA, the real message is crystal clear: Work the

> steps or die.

This is exactly the message I got with the modification: " Work the

steps, or DRINK yourself to death. " I also ran into the idea that

even if a person wasn't drinking - if they weren't sober the AA way

it wouldn't last, stick, and eventually they too would drink and die.

This was the " dry drunk " as the term was used in my meetings.

See you,

[Guest guest]

> Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to

> the care of the brick.

>

> and,

>

> Step 5: Admitted to the brick, to ourselves, and to another

> human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Hi ,

The one I kept hearing was " doorknob " or alternatively, " headboard. "

Eek.

Great post, . No one ever talked about this when I was in the

rooms except to try to convince me and others to convert. The more I

read and think about it, the more I'm sure that this is really what

its all about. It is a religious movement with an unending supply of

souls...

> Clearly, not just anything is going to work. But, consider this

> excerpt from the section on step two in the " 12 Steps And 12

> Traditions " ...

>

> > You can, if you wish, make A.A.,itself your `higher power.'

> > Here's a very large group of people who have solved their

> > alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power

> > greater than you, who have not even come close to a solution.

> > Surely you can have faith in them. Even this minimum of faith

> > will be enough. You will find many members who have crossed

> > the threshold just this way. All of them will tell you that,

> > once across, their faith broadened and deepened. Relieved of

> > the alcohol obsession, their lives unaccountably transformed,

> > they came to believe in a Higher Power, and most of them began

> > to talk of God.

>

> Hmmm - allowing AA to be the " Higher Power " ? And it appears that

> this only means it's a large organization with some answers that the

> newcomer doesn't have. But remember, this newcomer will later be

> expected to pray to this HP, ask the HP to remove all defects of

> character, etc.

>

> Praying to a brick, or to an organization of people, or to anything

> you please, for that matter - well, there's a word for that. It's

> called " idolatry " . If " idolatry " sounds a little too old-fashioned,

> how about " blasphemy " or " heresy " ? Saying that Jesus was an

> alcoholic probably doesn't qualify for either of those, but praying

> to a brick or to AA and expecting either to hear your prayers and

act

> on them almost certainly would.

>

> Even if an AA member conceptualizes their HP as their own

> understanding of a supreme being, he or she has to accept the fact

> that they belong to an organization which makes some fundamental

> statements about what their relationship to a supreme being should

> be, and expects its members to adhere to those rules.

Yes!

> substitution of " disease " for " sin "

> denial of responsibility for one's actions

> commonly found belief among AA members that the " Big Book " is

> divinely inspired

> requirement of confession of sins, but not of actual repentance,

> within the twelve steps

> lack of any clear-cut standard for what constitutes " sin " , since

> " God " can be anything one wants

>

> Again, I'd have much less of a problem with this if AA would simply

> *admit* that it is religious. Instead, it cloaks itself in the

> mantle of " spirituality " , denying its religious nature.

> Incidentally, this is a pretty common tactic among more well-known

> cults, which sometimes portray themselves as " religious study

> organizations " or something similar to disguise their nature.

>

> The effect is the same as with a more run-of-the-mill cult, however.

> By the time a new member realizes the fundamental conflicts between

> AA and his or her beliefs, the brainwashing is already well under

> way, and it may be too late. Although phrases like " the steps are

> just suggestions " and " take what you want and leave the rest " are

> bandied about in AA, the real message is crystal clear: Work the

> steps or die.

This is exactly the message I got with the modification: " Work the

steps, or DRINK yourself to death. " I also ran into the idea that

even if a person wasn't drinking - if they weren't sober the AA way

it wouldn't last, stick, and eventually they too would drink and die.

This was the " dry drunk " as the term was used in my meetings.

See you,

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> ,

>

> I enjoyed your analysis which made many excellent points.

>

> I've become curious about the " spiritual, not religious " doctrine.

> When and how did this develop? Did it predate the 1960s land

> decision against mandated AA for DUIs? In the BB and even in the

> appendices written in the mid 1950s, uses the

> terms " spiritual " and " religious " as synonyms. And some early AA

> literature from the Akron groups circa 1950s doesn't shy from terming

> AA a religion.

>

The spiritual-rather-than-religious thing was used by OG even before Bill

had his flash, that is, at the latest in the 30's and probably in the

20's. Somewhere in " Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers " there is a description

of OG extracted from some popular magazine of the day. OG was " more a

spiritual than a religious " fellowship, or something like that.

Actually, most of the language of the AA Preamble comes from OG.

--wally

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> ,

>

> I enjoyed your analysis which made many excellent points.

>

> I've become curious about the " spiritual, not religious " doctrine.

> When and how did this develop? Did it predate the 1960s land

> decision against mandated AA for DUIs? In the BB and even in the

> appendices written in the mid 1950s, uses the

> terms " spiritual " and " religious " as synonyms. And some early AA

> literature from the Akron groups circa 1950s doesn't shy from terming

> AA a religion.

>

The spiritual-rather-than-religious thing was used by OG even before Bill

had his flash, that is, at the latest in the 30's and probably in the

20's. Somewhere in " Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers " there is a description

of OG extracted from some popular magazine of the day. OG was " more a

spiritual than a religious " fellowship, or something like that.

Actually, most of the language of the AA Preamble comes from OG.

--wally

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> ,

>

> I enjoyed your analysis which made many excellent points.

>

> I've become curious about the " spiritual, not religious " doctrine.

> When and how did this develop? Did it predate the 1960s land

> decision against mandated AA for DUIs? In the BB and even in the

> appendices written in the mid 1950s, uses the

> terms " spiritual " and " religious " as synonyms. And some early AA

> literature from the Akron groups circa 1950s doesn't shy from terming

> AA a religion.

>

The spiritual-rather-than-religious thing was used by OG even before Bill

had his flash, that is, at the latest in the 30's and probably in the

20's. Somewhere in " Dr. Bob and the Good Old-Timers " there is a description

of OG extracted from some popular magazine of the day. OG was " more a

spiritual than a religious " fellowship, or something like that.

Actually, most of the language of the AA Preamble comes from OG.

--wally

[Guest guest]

When I first read your post, I thought, " Wait a minute. Don't most Western

religions pretty much all believe that God has a will and plan for people's

lives? " I posed this question to a friend of mine, and he promptly bit my

head off. He is so un-practicing of any religion, I forgot that much of his

upbringing was Jewish. Sort of made that undergraduate degree in Religious

Studies look like a worthless piece of paper (kind of like when I graduated

and started looking for employment).

Anyway, isn't even AA willing to admit that the philosophy has its roots in

Evangelical Christianity? I remember hearing that somewhere along the line.

It could have been somewhere other than AA, though.

Joan

Re: AA & Catholicism & religion in general (was

" Going to church " )

> AA is religious becuase it spouts a specfic belief, that god if you

> pray god will awnsers your prayers and remove your defects. that

> god has a will and plan for you to follow. that god was a universal

> creator.

>

> wilson though this was a universal truth all religions shared and

> none would be conflicted with. he was a moron.

>

>

>

>

> > > > Yeah, I'm Catholic but I haven't been practicing as well as I

> would

> > > > like lately.

> > > > [...]

> > > > You're right, Catholic theology has nothing in common with

> AA,

> > >other

> > > > than a popular prayer.

> > >

> > >I'm certainly no theologian, but I can't think of *any*

> conventional

> > >religion, Judeo-Christian or otherwise, that would seem to

> dovetail

> > >with steppism.

> > >

> > >AA has often been criticized as " religious " , but I think one

> could

> > >equally well call it " anti-religious " , in the same sense that it's

> > >anti-family, anti-marriage, etc. Anyone joining AA will at some

> > >point be expected to put their " sobriety " (and along with it, AA,

> BB,

> > >HP, and the group) ahead of their religion, family, marriage,

> etc.

> > >It's been said before, but AA is first and foremost about AA,

> not

> > >keeping people alcohol-free or anything else.

> >

> > Seems to me that AA is religious in the same sense that

> Christianity

> > is religious -- i.e., it is a religion. Naturally it would be difficult

to

> > practice two religions at the same time, so most people who

> > convert to AA end up giving up their previous faiths.

> >

> > This is no more remarkable than, e.g., giving up Christianity

> upon

> > conversion to Islam.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I first read your post, I thought, " Wait a minute. Don't most Western

religions pretty much all believe that God has a will and plan for people's

lives? " I posed this question to a friend of mine, and he promptly bit my

head off. He is so un-practicing of any religion, I forgot that much of his

upbringing was Jewish. Sort of made that undergraduate degree in Religious

Studies look like a worthless piece of paper (kind of like when I graduated

and started looking for employment).

Anyway, isn't even AA willing to admit that the philosophy has its roots in

Evangelical Christianity? I remember hearing that somewhere along the line.

It could have been somewhere other than AA, though.

Joan

Re: AA & Catholicism & religion in general (was

" Going to church " )

> AA is religious becuase it spouts a specfic belief, that god if you

> pray god will awnsers your prayers and remove your defects. that

> god has a will and plan for you to follow. that god was a universal

> creator.

>

> wilson though this was a universal truth all religions shared and

> none would be conflicted with. he was a moron.

>

>

>

>

> > > > Yeah, I'm Catholic but I haven't been practicing as well as I

> would

> > > > like lately.

> > > > [...]

> > > > You're right, Catholic theology has nothing in common with

> AA,

> > >other

> > > > than a popular prayer.

> > >

> > >I'm certainly no theologian, but I can't think of *any*

> conventional

> > >religion, Judeo-Christian or otherwise, that would seem to

> dovetail

> > >with steppism.

> > >

> > >AA has often been criticized as " religious " , but I think one

> could

> > >equally well call it " anti-religious " , in the same sense that it's

> > >anti-family, anti-marriage, etc. Anyone joining AA will at some

> > >point be expected to put their " sobriety " (and along with it, AA,

> BB,

> > >HP, and the group) ahead of their religion, family, marriage,

> etc.

> > >It's been said before, but AA is first and foremost about AA,

> not

> > >keeping people alcohol-free or anything else.

> >

> > Seems to me that AA is religious in the same sense that

> Christianity

> > is religious -- i.e., it is a religion. Naturally it would be difficult

to

> > practice two religions at the same time, so most people who

> > convert to AA end up giving up their previous faiths.

> >

> > This is no more remarkable than, e.g., giving up Christianity

> upon

> > conversion to Islam.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I first read your post, I thought, " Wait a minute. Don't most Western

religions pretty much all believe that God has a will and plan for people's

lives? " I posed this question to a friend of mine, and he promptly bit my

head off. He is so un-practicing of any religion, I forgot that much of his

upbringing was Jewish. Sort of made that undergraduate degree in Religious

Studies look like a worthless piece of paper (kind of like when I graduated

and started looking for employment).

Anyway, isn't even AA willing to admit that the philosophy has its roots in

Evangelical Christianity? I remember hearing that somewhere along the line.

It could have been somewhere other than AA, though.

Joan

Re: AA & Catholicism & religion in general (was

" Going to church " )

> AA is religious becuase it spouts a specfic belief, that god if you

> pray god will awnsers your prayers and remove your defects. that

> god has a will and plan for you to follow. that god was a universal

> creator.

>

> wilson though this was a universal truth all religions shared and

> none would be conflicted with. he was a moron.

>

>

>

>

> > > > Yeah, I'm Catholic but I haven't been practicing as well as I

> would

> > > > like lately.

> > > > [...]

> > > > You're right, Catholic theology has nothing in common with

> AA,

> > >other

> > > > than a popular prayer.

> > >

> > >I'm certainly no theologian, but I can't think of *any*

> conventional

> > >religion, Judeo-Christian or otherwise, that would seem to

> dovetail

> > >with steppism.

> > >

> > >AA has often been criticized as " religious " , but I think one

> could

> > >equally well call it " anti-religious " , in the same sense that it's

> > >anti-family, anti-marriage, etc. Anyone joining AA will at some

> > >point be expected to put their " sobriety " (and along with it, AA,

> BB,

> > >HP, and the group) ahead of their religion, family, marriage,

> etc.

> > >It's been said before, but AA is first and foremost about AA,

> not

> > >keeping people alcohol-free or anything else.

> >

> > Seems to me that AA is religious in the same sense that

> Christianity

> > is religious -- i.e., it is a religion. Naturally it would be difficult

to

> > practice two religions at the same time, so most people who

> > convert to AA end up giving up their previous faiths.

> >

> > This is no more remarkable than, e.g., giving up Christianity

> upon

> > conversion to Islam.

> >

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

(start quote)

AA tries to position itself as " spiritual " as opposed to " religious. "

I'm not really talking about legalities, just what they present. In

this way, (supposedly) people of any faith can participate and it

will not conflict with their religion. From what I saw there, I

don't believe this.

I just don't know how to prove it in the right words.

(end quote)

It is indeed very difficult to clarify this in the right words. And I

don't know if I can, but I will at least try.

In my story: " THREE MONTHS IN AA " , which one can read on

Fransway's site http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS

I did touch upon this same subject.

I have been an agnostic for almost 40 years, but I have been born and

raised in a good old fashioned Roman Catholic family. I even had

aspirations to join the priesthood for a while. I took a wide and

general interest in theology and in religions. And I still do.

One of the very important things that Christians in AA, be it of

Protestant or of Roman Catholic denomination, seem to overlook is,

that in the gospels Jesus Christ specifically demands of his

followers that they bear wittness of him into the world.

The exact Chapter and Verse in the Bible where Jesus made this demand

can be looked up in one of those Bible search pages on the internet.

It is connected to the parabel of the Good Sheppard and the false

Sheppards, and the false leaders, and the false religions.

The reason I remember this so well is that when Max and I went for

the first time to Mass in a well known Benedict Monastery instead of

attending an AA meeting, this same gospel was read. We thought it was

by co-incidence (Steppers would undoubtly say: " It was HP at work " ) a

very appropriate gospel as we recognized the false AA Sheppards,

preaching a false AA religion, of the false AA God as you understand

him, called Hihger Power, and no Christian in AA, neither a

Protestant nor a Catholic had we ever seen stand up and withness

about their " Lord " , Jesus Christ as they should have !!!.

A real Christian must realize that her or his only salvation comes

solely from their Lord Jesus Christ. Not from AA, not from God as you

understand Him, not from a Higher Power, a Daisy, a Door knob.

For a Christian there is no salvation except through Jesus Christ AND

the least that Jesus Christ EXPECTS of his followers is to stand up

and say so. To be a wittness for him in word and deed where ever they

are. Also at AA meetings. I listen, but I hear nothing! There is NO

Jesus Christ to be found in AA rooms.

Mind you people, the above that is not ME speaking. I am an agnostic

who is for arguments sake pretending to step into the shoes of a real

Christian. If I still were a good Catholic, that is what would be my

duty to my religion, and that is what I would do. Not the wishy washy

false AA religion. And that is valid for Protestants too.

(One can read about this phase of me " going to Church " as part of the

process of my " weaning " from AA in my story " THREE MONTHS IN AA "

http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS )

During the time I still attended AA meetings I have heard many anti-

church sentiments expressed. Also some members of mailing lists I

subscribe to condemn the Christian churches of lacking " Spirituality "

the AA way.

I am afraid I am going on too long.

But to and others who feel the same way I agree with you, and I

have said it in my AA Story:

" AA is not compatable with the Christian (Protestant/Catholic)

Religion. "

I am really interested how other Christians or ex-Christians who have

been in AA feel about this.

Kind regards,

My new list for agnostics/atheists:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAAA_Group

[Guest guest]

(start quote)

AA tries to position itself as " spiritual " as opposed to " religious. "

I'm not really talking about legalities, just what they present. In

this way, (supposedly) people of any faith can participate and it

will not conflict with their religion. From what I saw there, I

don't believe this.

I just don't know how to prove it in the right words.

(end quote)

It is indeed very difficult to clarify this in the right words. And I

don't know if I can, but I will at least try.

In my story: " THREE MONTHS IN AA " , which one can read on

Fransway's site http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS

I did touch upon this same subject.

I have been an agnostic for almost 40 years, but I have been born and

raised in a good old fashioned Roman Catholic family. I even had

aspirations to join the priesthood for a while. I took a wide and

general interest in theology and in religions. And I still do.

One of the very important things that Christians in AA, be it of

Protestant or of Roman Catholic denomination, seem to overlook is,

that in the gospels Jesus Christ specifically demands of his

followers that they bear wittness of him into the world.

The exact Chapter and Verse in the Bible where Jesus made this demand

can be looked up in one of those Bible search pages on the internet.

It is connected to the parabel of the Good Sheppard and the false

Sheppards, and the false leaders, and the false religions.

The reason I remember this so well is that when Max and I went for

the first time to Mass in a well known Benedict Monastery instead of

attending an AA meeting, this same gospel was read. We thought it was

by co-incidence (Steppers would undoubtly say: " It was HP at work " ) a

very appropriate gospel as we recognized the false AA Sheppards,

preaching a false AA religion, of the false AA God as you understand

him, called Hihger Power, and no Christian in AA, neither a

Protestant nor a Catholic had we ever seen stand up and withness

about their " Lord " , Jesus Christ as they should have !!!.

A real Christian must realize that her or his only salvation comes

solely from their Lord Jesus Christ. Not from AA, not from God as you

understand Him, not from a Higher Power, a Daisy, a Door knob.

For a Christian there is no salvation except through Jesus Christ AND

the least that Jesus Christ EXPECTS of his followers is to stand up

and say so. To be a wittness for him in word and deed where ever they

are. Also at AA meetings. I listen, but I hear nothing! There is NO

Jesus Christ to be found in AA rooms.

Mind you people, the above that is not ME speaking. I am an agnostic

who is for arguments sake pretending to step into the shoes of a real

Christian. If I still were a good Catholic, that is what would be my

duty to my religion, and that is what I would do. Not the wishy washy

false AA religion. And that is valid for Protestants too.

(One can read about this phase of me " going to Church " as part of the

process of my " weaning " from AA in my story " THREE MONTHS IN AA "

http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS )

During the time I still attended AA meetings I have heard many anti-

church sentiments expressed. Also some members of mailing lists I

subscribe to condemn the Christian churches of lacking " Spirituality "

the AA way.

I am afraid I am going on too long.

But to and others who feel the same way I agree with you, and I

have said it in my AA Story:

" AA is not compatable with the Christian (Protestant/Catholic)

Religion. "

I am really interested how other Christians or ex-Christians who have

been in AA feel about this.

Kind regards,

My new list for agnostics/atheists:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAAA_Group

[Guest guest]

(start quote)

AA tries to position itself as " spiritual " as opposed to " religious. "

I'm not really talking about legalities, just what they present. In

this way, (supposedly) people of any faith can participate and it

will not conflict with their religion. From what I saw there, I

don't believe this.

I just don't know how to prove it in the right words.

(end quote)

It is indeed very difficult to clarify this in the right words. And I

don't know if I can, but I will at least try.

In my story: " THREE MONTHS IN AA " , which one can read on

Fransway's site http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS

I did touch upon this same subject.

I have been an agnostic for almost 40 years, but I have been born and

raised in a good old fashioned Roman Catholic family. I even had

aspirations to join the priesthood for a while. I took a wide and

general interest in theology and in religions. And I still do.

One of the very important things that Christians in AA, be it of

Protestant or of Roman Catholic denomination, seem to overlook is,

that in the gospels Jesus Christ specifically demands of his

followers that they bear wittness of him into the world.

The exact Chapter and Verse in the Bible where Jesus made this demand

can be looked up in one of those Bible search pages on the internet.

It is connected to the parabel of the Good Sheppard and the false

Sheppards, and the false leaders, and the false religions.

The reason I remember this so well is that when Max and I went for

the first time to Mass in a well known Benedict Monastery instead of

attending an AA meeting, this same gospel was read. We thought it was

by co-incidence (Steppers would undoubtly say: " It was HP at work " ) a

very appropriate gospel as we recognized the false AA Sheppards,

preaching a false AA religion, of the false AA God as you understand

him, called Hihger Power, and no Christian in AA, neither a

Protestant nor a Catholic had we ever seen stand up and withness

about their " Lord " , Jesus Christ as they should have !!!.

A real Christian must realize that her or his only salvation comes

solely from their Lord Jesus Christ. Not from AA, not from God as you

understand Him, not from a Higher Power, a Daisy, a Door knob.

For a Christian there is no salvation except through Jesus Christ AND

the least that Jesus Christ EXPECTS of his followers is to stand up

and say so. To be a wittness for him in word and deed where ever they

are. Also at AA meetings. I listen, but I hear nothing! There is NO

Jesus Christ to be found in AA rooms.

Mind you people, the above that is not ME speaking. I am an agnostic

who is for arguments sake pretending to step into the shoes of a real

Christian. If I still were a good Catholic, that is what would be my

duty to my religion, and that is what I would do. Not the wishy washy

false AA religion. And that is valid for Protestants too.

(One can read about this phase of me " going to Church " as part of the

process of my " weaning " from AA in my story " THREE MONTHS IN AA "

http://www.aahorror.net/AA%20Horror.htm#THREE%20MONTHS )

During the time I still attended AA meetings I have heard many anti-

church sentiments expressed. Also some members of mailing lists I

subscribe to condemn the Christian churches of lacking " Spirituality "

the AA way.

I am afraid I am going on too long.

But to and others who feel the same way I agree with you, and I

have said it in my AA Story:

" AA is not compatable with the Christian (Protestant/Catholic)

Religion. "

I am really interested how other Christians or ex-Christians who have

been in AA feel about this.

Kind regards,

My new list for agnostics/atheists:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AAAA_Group

[Guest guest]

>

> Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag before

you

> click on this:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

Thanks for the heads up on the barf bag, Tommy. ;-)

Most of my info comes from the Web. I've read " AA, Cult or Cure? " by

Bufe, and some Trimpey books, but I seldom buy books so I am behind

in my reading about that most curious religion. Books by Ken and

are at the top of my list, tho.

I'm thinking about submitting a question to Cecil about AA, in

the hopes that he may expose it, but I'm not sure what angle to take.

Any suggestions are welcome. For a sample of his column see:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmormonwed.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html

Jim

Babies Ate My Dingo!

http://www.inet.ca/strangertimes/1/dingoes.html

[Guest guest]

>

> Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag before

you

> click on this:

> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

Thanks for the heads up on the barf bag, Tommy. ;-)

Most of my info comes from the Web. I've read " AA, Cult or Cure? " by

Bufe, and some Trimpey books, but I seldom buy books so I am behind

in my reading about that most curious religion. Books by Ken and

are at the top of my list, tho.

I'm thinking about submitting a question to Cecil about AA, in

the hopes that he may expose it, but I'm not sure what angle to take.

Any suggestions are welcome. For a sample of his column see:

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmormonwed.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html

Jim

Babies Ate My Dingo!

http://www.inet.ca/strangertimes/1/dingoes.html

[Guest guest]

ask him about the belldonna cure that wilson underwent when

he had his god experinces which started the whole ball rolling.

or about oxford group being a cult. ask him how AA can call itself

" spirtual not religious " when it clearly calls for turning your will

over to god. or what is difference between god and a hp?

ask him about the disease theory and project match.

>

> >

> > Jim, this is a post from December 1999. Get out a barf bag

before

> you

> > click on this:

> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/message/10547

>

> Thanks for the heads up on the barf bag, Tommy. ;-)

> Most of my info comes from the Web. I've read " AA, Cult or

Cure? " by

> Bufe, and some Trimpey books, but I seldom buy books so I

am behind

> in my reading about that most curious religion. Books by Ken

and

> are at the top of my list, tho.

>

> I'm thinking about submitting a question to Cecil about

AA, in

> the hopes that he may expose it, but I'm not sure what angle to

take.

> Any suggestions are welcome. For a sample of his column

see:

>

> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhitlerchristian.html

> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmormonwed.html

> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mjewish.html

> http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mcult.html

>

> Jim

>

> Babies Ate My Dingo!

> http://www.inet.ca/strangertimes/1/dingoes.html

[Guest guest]

> AA certainly CLAIMED a high rate of success for its early years. In

> the famous Saturday Evening Post article by Jack , I think

> they even claimed a 100 percent cure rate --except for psychopaths.

>

> When claimed a 50% + 25% cure rate in the 1955 preface, he

> qualified it by saying for those that sincerely tried or something

to

> that effect.

>

> The earliest independent report on AA success rates that I am aware

> of is from a sympathetic Australian doctor in the 1940s. IIRC, he

> estimated a 10 percent cure rate.

Stuart,

I'm still looking for where I got my information about that. I know

it was not from AA - if they said the sun was gonna rise in the east

tomorrow, I'd set the alarm clock early and check it.

Also, as I'm sure you're well aware, success rates mean nothing

without knowing what the evaluative criteria are. 's numbers

might have been referring to the people able to stay abstinent for,

let's say, three months, while the Australian doctor might have been

looking at abstinence over an entire year. As Mark Twain once

commented, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. :-)

[Guest guest]

> AA certainly CLAIMED a high rate of success for its early years. In

> the famous Saturday Evening Post article by Jack , I think

> they even claimed a 100 percent cure rate --except for psychopaths.

>

> When claimed a 50% + 25% cure rate in the 1955 preface, he

> qualified it by saying for those that sincerely tried or something

to

> that effect.

>

> The earliest independent report on AA success rates that I am aware

> of is from a sympathetic Australian doctor in the 1940s. IIRC, he

> estimated a 10 percent cure rate.

Stuart,

I'm still looking for where I got my information about that. I know

it was not from AA - if they said the sun was gonna rise in the east

tomorrow, I'd set the alarm clock early and check it.

Also, as I'm sure you're well aware, success rates mean nothing

without knowing what the evaluative criteria are. 's numbers

might have been referring to the people able to stay abstinent for,

let's say, three months, while the Australian doctor might have been

looking at abstinence over an entire year. As Mark Twain once

commented, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. :-)