Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. Go ahead. I won't hold it against you. Was I too mean to Toth? I don't want any suicides being my fault. Here's an email I got from Toth first thing this morning: | Block address Subject: Kiss it goodbye To: rfransway@... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Length: 1465 : Thanks for the offer, but didn't you know you can't control " people, places, and things " ?! (Come on now; let's see that little vein in your forehead throb.) No, I'm already gone; that's why this is private. Thanks also for one last brown and shining example of the kind of childish bitchy toxic waste I'm so glad to be leaving behind. At least AA bullshit SOUNDS loftier and more noble than the increasingly trivial, petty, and irrelevant claptrap that feably tries to pass for intelligent conversation on " 12SF. " I only hope someone trying desperately to recover from both AA AND alcohol itself doesn't blow his brains out because he slipped and typed the word " spiritual " and his last hope suddenly morphed into an orgy of rabid tirades against him. (And just to piss you off!): Blessed Be! --CTT, The Wicked Bitch of the South ----- Original message: On Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:02:06 -0000 From: rfransway@... Subject: Re: On and on > As above, I'm sending a copy of this to your private > e-mail address just in case you've quit in disgust. > Please keep in touch if you do. I'm considering doing > the same, Is there anything I can say or do that will help you hurry this decision along quicker? __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 After having read the below and his last email rant about how AA helped most of us. I'm behind you 100%. > Was I Wrong? > > >Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. Go ahead. >I won't hold it against you. > >Was I too mean to Toth? I don't want any suicides being my >fault. Here's an email I got from Toth first thing this >morning: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 After having read the below and his last email rant about how AA helped most of us. I'm behind you 100%. > Was I Wrong? > > >Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. Go ahead. >I won't hold it against you. > >Was I too mean to Toth? I don't want any suicides being my >fault. Here's an email I got from Toth first thing this >morning: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 After having read the below and his last email rant about how AA helped most of us. I'm behind you 100%. > Was I Wrong? > > >Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. Go ahead. >I won't hold it against you. > >Was I too mean to Toth? I don't want any suicides being my >fault. Here's an email I got from Toth first thing this >morning: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Was I too mean to Toth? Hmmmm...I'll reserve judgment on that one. That's not because of a desire to dodge the question. Rather, although I've been abstinent and AA-less for two years now, I haven't been much off a social activist until very recently. Seeing AA break up my friend's marriage reminded me of everything that AA is and does, and pissed me off to a high degree. So, although I've run into steppers plenty of time in real life, Toth was my first (possible) exposure to a cyber-troll. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt throughout our brief acquaintance for two reasons - first, because of my inexperience with cyber-steppers, and second, because it seemed to me that he *had* to have at least some legitimate qualms about AA and the steps just to have said some of the things he was saying. Also, it seemed to me that he and Gaston did have a legitimate complaint - the description of the list does say that it is also for people *questioning* steppism. A person like that could hardly be expected to echo the anti-AA party line. Now, common sense says the description should fit the group, not the other way around. If this group is to become an anti-AA group, then fine - it's easy enough for Ken to change the description on the home page, I assume. Because of all that, it seemed to me that a person questioning steppism and honestly open to other opinions, yet still buying into large chunks of AA ideology, would say much of the same things as a particularly clever and calculating " troll " would. Assuming I correctly understand the meaning of that word (lol). Is it someone who's trying to lure people back into AA, or someone who's just trying to stir up trouble? Or both? Someone please educate me... Now, with all that said...I also had my doubts about Toth, and they were much more than trivial. Quite significant doubts, in fact. I'll email you with the specifics - your question is certainly a fair one - but I'd rather not air them publicly when Toth isn't here to defend himself. Since I'm undecided on his motives, I'll give him that benefit of the doubt on that issue. On the whole, FWIW, I'm undecided as to whether Toth was trolling when at the time I joined the list. But I do think he was trying to stir up some trouble at the end. Whether it was because of a hidden agenda he had all along, or because of anger at some people, I have no idea. Not exactly an answer to your question, I know, but it's the best I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Was I too mean to Toth? Hmmmm...I'll reserve judgment on that one. That's not because of a desire to dodge the question. Rather, although I've been abstinent and AA-less for two years now, I haven't been much off a social activist until very recently. Seeing AA break up my friend's marriage reminded me of everything that AA is and does, and pissed me off to a high degree. So, although I've run into steppers plenty of time in real life, Toth was my first (possible) exposure to a cyber-troll. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt throughout our brief acquaintance for two reasons - first, because of my inexperience with cyber-steppers, and second, because it seemed to me that he *had* to have at least some legitimate qualms about AA and the steps just to have said some of the things he was saying. Also, it seemed to me that he and Gaston did have a legitimate complaint - the description of the list does say that it is also for people *questioning* steppism. A person like that could hardly be expected to echo the anti-AA party line. Now, common sense says the description should fit the group, not the other way around. If this group is to become an anti-AA group, then fine - it's easy enough for Ken to change the description on the home page, I assume. Because of all that, it seemed to me that a person questioning steppism and honestly open to other opinions, yet still buying into large chunks of AA ideology, would say much of the same things as a particularly clever and calculating " troll " would. Assuming I correctly understand the meaning of that word (lol). Is it someone who's trying to lure people back into AA, or someone who's just trying to stir up trouble? Or both? Someone please educate me... Now, with all that said...I also had my doubts about Toth, and they were much more than trivial. Quite significant doubts, in fact. I'll email you with the specifics - your question is certainly a fair one - but I'd rather not air them publicly when Toth isn't here to defend himself. Since I'm undecided on his motives, I'll give him that benefit of the doubt on that issue. On the whole, FWIW, I'm undecided as to whether Toth was trolling when at the time I joined the list. But I do think he was trying to stir up some trouble at the end. Whether it was because of a hidden agenda he had all along, or because of anger at some people, I have no idea. Not exactly an answer to your question, I know, but it's the best I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Was I too mean to Toth? Hmmmm...I'll reserve judgment on that one. That's not because of a desire to dodge the question. Rather, although I've been abstinent and AA-less for two years now, I haven't been much off a social activist until very recently. Seeing AA break up my friend's marriage reminded me of everything that AA is and does, and pissed me off to a high degree. So, although I've run into steppers plenty of time in real life, Toth was my first (possible) exposure to a cyber-troll. I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt throughout our brief acquaintance for two reasons - first, because of my inexperience with cyber-steppers, and second, because it seemed to me that he *had* to have at least some legitimate qualms about AA and the steps just to have said some of the things he was saying. Also, it seemed to me that he and Gaston did have a legitimate complaint - the description of the list does say that it is also for people *questioning* steppism. A person like that could hardly be expected to echo the anti-AA party line. Now, common sense says the description should fit the group, not the other way around. If this group is to become an anti-AA group, then fine - it's easy enough for Ken to change the description on the home page, I assume. Because of all that, it seemed to me that a person questioning steppism and honestly open to other opinions, yet still buying into large chunks of AA ideology, would say much of the same things as a particularly clever and calculating " troll " would. Assuming I correctly understand the meaning of that word (lol). Is it someone who's trying to lure people back into AA, or someone who's just trying to stir up trouble? Or both? Someone please educate me... Now, with all that said...I also had my doubts about Toth, and they were much more than trivial. Quite significant doubts, in fact. I'll email you with the specifics - your question is certainly a fair one - but I'd rather not air them publicly when Toth isn't here to defend himself. Since I'm undecided on his motives, I'll give him that benefit of the doubt on that issue. On the whole, FWIW, I'm undecided as to whether Toth was trolling when at the time I joined the list. But I do think he was trying to stir up some trouble at the end. Whether it was because of a hidden agenda he had all along, or because of anger at some people, I have no idea. Not exactly an answer to your question, I know, but it's the best I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. > Go ahead. I won't hold it against you. > > Was I too mean to Toth? i can hardly claim to be impartial. but imo, no. > I don't want any suicides being my fault. ... using the idea of suicide as a manipulative threat is one of the oldest games in the world. i've had it played on me, have seen it played on friends of mine. i think it is an incomparably vicious game to play. imo, Toth is playing it to the hilt in this email. i've felt all along that he was playing games. just trying to push every button he could find. a mindfuck artist. imo, people did not come down on him like a ton of bricks because he *slipped* and used a few AA slogans. they did so because he *slapped* at people with those AA slogans. he came charging in and pushed his weight around, much like bullies in " the rewms " do. that kind of behavior is going to get a reaction. it's crazy to expect otherwise. if someone thinks they can treat others like that, and *not* get a reaction... and if they do receive a reaction and are wounded to the point of suicide... their suicide is still their choice and their responsibility. also... and this may seem selfish of me... i was glad to see that other people were also disenchanted with him. i was really starting to get freaked out over this whole thing... someone said to me, " don't censor yourself " but i *was,* because i was feeling like such a target. it was deja vu all over again. i was glad to see that people were not taken in by him, and *expressed* that -- sometimes matching him rudeness for rudeness. azure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 27, 2001 Report Share Posted February 27, 2001 > Okay everyone, now is your chance to throw tomatoes at me. > Go ahead. I won't hold it against you. > > Was I too mean to Toth? i can hardly claim to be impartial. but imo, no. > I don't want any suicides being my fault. ... using the idea of suicide as a manipulative threat is one of the oldest games in the world. i've had it played on me, have seen it played on friends of mine. i think it is an incomparably vicious game to play. imo, Toth is playing it to the hilt in this email. i've felt all along that he was playing games. just trying to push every button he could find. a mindfuck artist. imo, people did not come down on him like a ton of bricks because he *slipped* and used a few AA slogans. they did so because he *slapped* at people with those AA slogans. he came charging in and pushed his weight around, much like bullies in " the rewms " do. that kind of behavior is going to get a reaction. it's crazy to expect otherwise. if someone thinks they can treat others like that, and *not* get a reaction... and if they do receive a reaction and are wounded to the point of suicide... their suicide is still their choice and their responsibility. also... and this may seem selfish of me... i was glad to see that other people were also disenchanted with him. i was really starting to get freaked out over this whole thing... someone said to me, " don't censor yourself " but i *was,* because i was feeling like such a target. it was deja vu all over again. i was glad to see that people were not taken in by him, and *expressed* that -- sometimes matching him rudeness for rudeness. azure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 > also... and this may seem selfish of me... i was glad to see that > other people were also disenchanted with him. i was really starting > to get freaked out over this whole thing... someone said to > me, " don't censor yourself " but i *was,* because i was feeling like > such a target. it was deja vu all over again. i was glad to see > that people were not taken in by him, and *expressed* that -- > sometimes matching him rudeness for rudeness. Thanks Azure. I think part of what pushed my buttons is when he started loftily offering AA counsel to you and someone else (I forgot who now), who came here to escape exactly that kind of thing. People write to me, and I suggest 12-step free as a safe place to deprogram. So it was easy to go off when he predicted disaster for you in your moderation plan, and told someone else coercion isn't so bad because jail is a choice. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 > also... and this may seem selfish of me... i was glad to see that > other people were also disenchanted with him. i was really starting > to get freaked out over this whole thing... someone said to > me, " don't censor yourself " but i *was,* because i was feeling like > such a target. it was deja vu all over again. i was glad to see > that people were not taken in by him, and *expressed* that -- > sometimes matching him rudeness for rudeness. Thanks Azure. I think part of what pushed my buttons is when he started loftily offering AA counsel to you and someone else (I forgot who now), who came here to escape exactly that kind of thing. People write to me, and I suggest 12-step free as a safe place to deprogram. So it was easy to go off when he predicted disaster for you in your moderation plan, and told someone else coercion isn't so bad because jail is a choice. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2001 Report Share Posted February 28, 2001 > also... and this may seem selfish of me... i was glad to see that > other people were also disenchanted with him. i was really starting > to get freaked out over this whole thing... someone said to > me, " don't censor yourself " but i *was,* because i was feeling like > such a target. it was deja vu all over again. i was glad to see > that people were not taken in by him, and *expressed* that -- > sometimes matching him rudeness for rudeness. Thanks Azure. I think part of what pushed my buttons is when he started loftily offering AA counsel to you and someone else (I forgot who now), who came here to escape exactly that kind of thing. People write to me, and I suggest 12-step free as a safe place to deprogram. So it was easy to go off when he predicted disaster for you in your moderation plan, and told someone else coercion isn't so bad because jail is a choice. Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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