Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 To the list, There is so much to respond to. I have written a few emails, and then discarded then. Writing them was a way to work out my own feelings and I don't need to make points now. Except to say that I expected that I would be welcome by some people at least because what of I capitalize below in the group's purpose. It is what stood out to me when I joined. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the groups OR ARE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONING THE 12-STEP DOCTRINE. " But now after a turbulent few days, I think I may have moved from reacting to some understanding of where people on this list are coming from. I have been trying to put myself in other people's shoes so to speak. I know I have not gone to 12-step meetings because I need to protect myself from what can effect me as insidious thinking. I choose to do this because staying out of my addiction can depend on it. So if sharing my thinking could possibly threaten anyone's sobriety, I would rather try to find other ways to work out my thoughts and get feedback. I have got some slack now, but when I first signed up I felt desperate to be heard and understood and I didn't have much space to think about how I might effect others. I had hoped to have a real discussion on the steps and the concept of powerlessness here, but I have been working it out in my own mind in the last couple of days. I am taking my power back, so needing people on this list to get where I am coming from isn't urgent anymore. And, I was going to drop out given all the anger people have felt toward me, but then reading certain posts like the one on Bill W.'s depression recently are valuable food for thought for me. Best to all, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 To the list, There is so much to respond to. I have written a few emails, and then discarded then. Writing them was a way to work out my own feelings and I don't need to make points now. Except to say that I expected that I would be welcome by some people at least because what of I capitalize below in the group's purpose. It is what stood out to me when I joined. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the groups OR ARE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONING THE 12-STEP DOCTRINE. " But now after a turbulent few days, I think I may have moved from reacting to some understanding of where people on this list are coming from. I have been trying to put myself in other people's shoes so to speak. I know I have not gone to 12-step meetings because I need to protect myself from what can effect me as insidious thinking. I choose to do this because staying out of my addiction can depend on it. So if sharing my thinking could possibly threaten anyone's sobriety, I would rather try to find other ways to work out my thoughts and get feedback. I have got some slack now, but when I first signed up I felt desperate to be heard and understood and I didn't have much space to think about how I might effect others. I had hoped to have a real discussion on the steps and the concept of powerlessness here, but I have been working it out in my own mind in the last couple of days. I am taking my power back, so needing people on this list to get where I am coming from isn't urgent anymore. And, I was going to drop out given all the anger people have felt toward me, but then reading certain posts like the one on Bill W.'s depression recently are valuable food for thought for me. Best to all, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 To the list, There is so much to respond to. I have written a few emails, and then discarded then. Writing them was a way to work out my own feelings and I don't need to make points now. Except to say that I expected that I would be welcome by some people at least because what of I capitalize below in the group's purpose. It is what stood out to me when I joined. " Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left the groups OR ARE SERIOUSLY QUESTIONING THE 12-STEP DOCTRINE. " But now after a turbulent few days, I think I may have moved from reacting to some understanding of where people on this list are coming from. I have been trying to put myself in other people's shoes so to speak. I know I have not gone to 12-step meetings because I need to protect myself from what can effect me as insidious thinking. I choose to do this because staying out of my addiction can depend on it. So if sharing my thinking could possibly threaten anyone's sobriety, I would rather try to find other ways to work out my thoughts and get feedback. I have got some slack now, but when I first signed up I felt desperate to be heard and understood and I didn't have much space to think about how I might effect others. I had hoped to have a real discussion on the steps and the concept of powerlessness here, but I have been working it out in my own mind in the last couple of days. I am taking my power back, so needing people on this list to get where I am coming from isn't urgent anymore. And, I was going to drop out given all the anger people have felt toward me, but then reading certain posts like the one on Bill W.'s depression recently are valuable food for thought for me. Best to all, JP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 My apologies for any redundancy--i.e., if this posts twice. My computer went down, losing final changes, right when hit " Send. " Now modifying and resending. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:49:33 -0600, " Dan Berkes " writes: > You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless > bag of filth. As we say in Texas. I'll bet you > couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on > the heel. Thanks. I'll have to remember that one. I'll bet you a year's pay because you'd lose. > You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would > rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. And you've never even met me, much less been seen with me. Kiss a lawyer? Go for it. Only a lawyer would kiss your foul mouth. > You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a > spineless little worm deserving nothing but the > profoundest contempt. IMHO, those who resort to name-calling attacks when others refuse to suck up to them by capitulating to their hypersensitivity who are the " spineless little worms " of the world. I even just got a private message disagreeing with my " worldview " but still admiring my " big balls. " I doubt you'll get a similar response to your tirade. > You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. I wouldn't insult the nonhumans by comparing you to one of them, though a comparison to a three-year-old human who throws the checkerboard into the air because the game isn't going his way and screams, " I HATE you! " at his opponent is pretty accurate. > Your life is a monument to stupidity. And you know exactly WHAT of my life? If I didn't know before, now I'm certain that you don't know me. Even if my IQ weren't off the charts, I still have to " dummy down " 95% of what I say just to have any kind of social life (and no, I don't mean AA; I mean a REAL social life). People who know me better than you ever will, whether friends or enemies, would agree with me that I am INCAPABLE of producing a life that is a " monument to stupidity " ! Nonetheless, I will cease the stupid practice of trying to " teach a pig to sing " (no offense to pigs; they're obviously of better character than you) and will no longer respond to anything you have to say. You are obviously incapable of carrying on a rational discussion, argument, or debate for any truly intellectually stimulating length of time. You're not even very good at getting people to capitulate to your oversensitive sensibilities. > You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour > lemon. Suck away. Maybe some vitamin C will improve your foul mood. > You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant > dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal > accompanying your alleged birth into this > world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to > nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling > beasts who sired you and then killed themselfs in > recognition of what they had done. I'll TAKE it! Take me to Mama and Daddy's graves! So long as it means I'm not related to pitifully childish idiots like you. > I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging > to the same species as you. You don't. Not because I'm being deliberately insulting but because you obviously lack the maturity my species possesses to " get over " anything, including when people fail to kiss your supposedly sacred ass by policing their vocabularies in your holy presence. Fart and grant us incense, oh Lord. > You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at > the very thought of you. Think of me often. Maybe you'll become sufficiently dehydrated to starve to death and put us all out of your misery. > You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Hundreds of my lovers and friends would disagree. That's what we homo sapiens sapiens adults do, by the way; we disagree, not hurl attacks. > Lepers avoid you. Good! Who said I wanted to hang out with them? > You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. Stop. Ouch. You're hurting my self-esteem. Boo hoo hoo. (Note the complete lack of exclamation points.) But with no sarcasm whatsoever, sir, so long as we're letting it all hang out, please do me one last favor: If you wish to live in reality, please cease, especially after this one act of profound presumptuous, stupid childishness of yours, eloquent though it may have been at times, to hold onto any delusion you may have that I give a flying booger about what passes for a pitiful excuse of a thought in that rotting mass of necrosis you call a brain, up to and including what, based on absolutely no real knowledge of me nor desire to seek out same, you think of me--you dumb piece of shit. Actually, I apologize. I misspoke. Shit actually can be used as fertilizer to help things to grow. I should have said, " --you dumb piece of toxic waste. " > You are a weed, Like, for a century or two, St. 's wort, perhaps? > a fungus, morels? shitake? psilocybin? Eat them up, yum! > the dregs of this earth. Like Blackened Voodoo stout? (probably the beer I miss the most) > And did I mention you smell? No, but you're right, I do! My lovers say the aroma is reminiscent of a verdant forest. As we say in North Carolina, I'll bet you ain't no azalea ass either! (You can smell me through a computer? Call the Rhine Institute! Clairolfactance or is some of my " creative use of words " finally rubbing off on you?) > Blessed Be! --Dan I'll say it again: Grow up. (and good-bye for good) --Clif (My previous message to which Dan was responding) > So when I write to so many of the people I love, > including dear friends in West Hollywood and Albany, > my High Priestess in a nearby county, my minister, my > atheist friends both in and out of AA, my late best > friend's widower, my mother, my sister, etc. and > finish off my letter with the words, " Blessed Be, " > what I'm " really " doing is telling all of them " fuck > you " ?! > > I think my mother in particular would be very dismayed > to know that, although that also means that she wishes > me the same when she writes back. > > Oh well. I suppose I should be comforted that at > least someone understands the inner workings of what I > really mean better than I do. In that case... > > Bless your heart...and that of the horse you rode in > on. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 My apologies for any redundancy--i.e., if this posts twice. My computer went down, losing final changes, right when hit " Send. " Now modifying and resending. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:49:33 -0600, " Dan Berkes " writes: > You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless > bag of filth. As we say in Texas. I'll bet you > couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on > the heel. Thanks. I'll have to remember that one. I'll bet you a year's pay because you'd lose. > You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would > rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. And you've never even met me, much less been seen with me. Kiss a lawyer? Go for it. Only a lawyer would kiss your foul mouth. > You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a > spineless little worm deserving nothing but the > profoundest contempt. IMHO, those who resort to name-calling attacks when others refuse to suck up to them by capitulating to their hypersensitivity who are the " spineless little worms " of the world. I even just got a private message disagreeing with my " worldview " but still admiring my " big balls. " I doubt you'll get a similar response to your tirade. > You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. I wouldn't insult the nonhumans by comparing you to one of them, though a comparison to a three-year-old human who throws the checkerboard into the air because the game isn't going his way and screams, " I HATE you! " at his opponent is pretty accurate. > Your life is a monument to stupidity. And you know exactly WHAT of my life? If I didn't know before, now I'm certain that you don't know me. Even if my IQ weren't off the charts, I still have to " dummy down " 95% of what I say just to have any kind of social life (and no, I don't mean AA; I mean a REAL social life). People who know me better than you ever will, whether friends or enemies, would agree with me that I am INCAPABLE of producing a life that is a " monument to stupidity " ! Nonetheless, I will cease the stupid practice of trying to " teach a pig to sing " (no offense to pigs; they're obviously of better character than you) and will no longer respond to anything you have to say. You are obviously incapable of carrying on a rational discussion, argument, or debate for any truly intellectually stimulating length of time. You're not even very good at getting people to capitulate to your oversensitive sensibilities. > You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour > lemon. Suck away. Maybe some vitamin C will improve your foul mood. > You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant > dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal > accompanying your alleged birth into this > world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to > nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling > beasts who sired you and then killed themselfs in > recognition of what they had done. I'll TAKE it! Take me to Mama and Daddy's graves! So long as it means I'm not related to pitifully childish idiots like you. > I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging > to the same species as you. You don't. Not because I'm being deliberately insulting but because you obviously lack the maturity my species possesses to " get over " anything, including when people fail to kiss your supposedly sacred ass by policing their vocabularies in your holy presence. Fart and grant us incense, oh Lord. > You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at > the very thought of you. Think of me often. Maybe you'll become sufficiently dehydrated to starve to death and put us all out of your misery. > You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Hundreds of my lovers and friends would disagree. That's what we homo sapiens sapiens adults do, by the way; we disagree, not hurl attacks. > Lepers avoid you. Good! Who said I wanted to hang out with them? > You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. Stop. Ouch. You're hurting my self-esteem. Boo hoo hoo. (Note the complete lack of exclamation points.) But with no sarcasm whatsoever, sir, so long as we're letting it all hang out, please do me one last favor: If you wish to live in reality, please cease, especially after this one act of profound presumptuous, stupid childishness of yours, eloquent though it may have been at times, to hold onto any delusion you may have that I give a flying booger about what passes for a pitiful excuse of a thought in that rotting mass of necrosis you call a brain, up to and including what, based on absolutely no real knowledge of me nor desire to seek out same, you think of me--you dumb piece of shit. Actually, I apologize. I misspoke. Shit actually can be used as fertilizer to help things to grow. I should have said, " --you dumb piece of toxic waste. " > You are a weed, Like, for a century or two, St. 's wort, perhaps? > a fungus, morels? shitake? psilocybin? Eat them up, yum! > the dregs of this earth. Like Blackened Voodoo stout? (probably the beer I miss the most) > And did I mention you smell? No, but you're right, I do! My lovers say the aroma is reminiscent of a verdant forest. As we say in North Carolina, I'll bet you ain't no azalea ass either! (You can smell me through a computer? Call the Rhine Institute! Clairolfactance or is some of my " creative use of words " finally rubbing off on you?) > Blessed Be! --Dan I'll say it again: Grow up. (and good-bye for good) --Clif (My previous message to which Dan was responding) > So when I write to so many of the people I love, > including dear friends in West Hollywood and Albany, > my High Priestess in a nearby county, my minister, my > atheist friends both in and out of AA, my late best > friend's widower, my mother, my sister, etc. and > finish off my letter with the words, " Blessed Be, " > what I'm " really " doing is telling all of them " fuck > you " ?! > > I think my mother in particular would be very dismayed > to know that, although that also means that she wishes > me the same when she writes back. > > Oh well. I suppose I should be comforted that at > least someone understands the inner workings of what I > really mean better than I do. In that case... > > Bless your heart...and that of the horse you rode in > on. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 My apologies for any redundancy--i.e., if this posts twice. My computer went down, losing final changes, right when hit " Send. " Now modifying and resending. On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:49:33 -0600, " Dan Berkes " writes: > You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless > bag of filth. As we say in Texas. I'll bet you > couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on > the heel. Thanks. I'll have to remember that one. I'll bet you a year's pay because you'd lose. > You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would > rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. And you've never even met me, much less been seen with me. Kiss a lawyer? Go for it. Only a lawyer would kiss your foul mouth. > You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a > spineless little worm deserving nothing but the > profoundest contempt. IMHO, those who resort to name-calling attacks when others refuse to suck up to them by capitulating to their hypersensitivity who are the " spineless little worms " of the world. I even just got a private message disagreeing with my " worldview " but still admiring my " big balls. " I doubt you'll get a similar response to your tirade. > You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. I wouldn't insult the nonhumans by comparing you to one of them, though a comparison to a three-year-old human who throws the checkerboard into the air because the game isn't going his way and screams, " I HATE you! " at his opponent is pretty accurate. > Your life is a monument to stupidity. And you know exactly WHAT of my life? If I didn't know before, now I'm certain that you don't know me. Even if my IQ weren't off the charts, I still have to " dummy down " 95% of what I say just to have any kind of social life (and no, I don't mean AA; I mean a REAL social life). People who know me better than you ever will, whether friends or enemies, would agree with me that I am INCAPABLE of producing a life that is a " monument to stupidity " ! Nonetheless, I will cease the stupid practice of trying to " teach a pig to sing " (no offense to pigs; they're obviously of better character than you) and will no longer respond to anything you have to say. You are obviously incapable of carrying on a rational discussion, argument, or debate for any truly intellectually stimulating length of time. You're not even very good at getting people to capitulate to your oversensitive sensibilities. > You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour > lemon. Suck away. Maybe some vitamin C will improve your foul mood. > You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant > dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal > accompanying your alleged birth into this > world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to > nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling > beasts who sired you and then killed themselfs in > recognition of what they had done. I'll TAKE it! Take me to Mama and Daddy's graves! So long as it means I'm not related to pitifully childish idiots like you. > I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging > to the same species as you. You don't. Not because I'm being deliberately insulting but because you obviously lack the maturity my species possesses to " get over " anything, including when people fail to kiss your supposedly sacred ass by policing their vocabularies in your holy presence. Fart and grant us incense, oh Lord. > You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at > the very thought of you. Think of me often. Maybe you'll become sufficiently dehydrated to starve to death and put us all out of your misery. > You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Hundreds of my lovers and friends would disagree. That's what we homo sapiens sapiens adults do, by the way; we disagree, not hurl attacks. > Lepers avoid you. Good! Who said I wanted to hang out with them? > You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. Stop. Ouch. You're hurting my self-esteem. Boo hoo hoo. (Note the complete lack of exclamation points.) But with no sarcasm whatsoever, sir, so long as we're letting it all hang out, please do me one last favor: If you wish to live in reality, please cease, especially after this one act of profound presumptuous, stupid childishness of yours, eloquent though it may have been at times, to hold onto any delusion you may have that I give a flying booger about what passes for a pitiful excuse of a thought in that rotting mass of necrosis you call a brain, up to and including what, based on absolutely no real knowledge of me nor desire to seek out same, you think of me--you dumb piece of shit. Actually, I apologize. I misspoke. Shit actually can be used as fertilizer to help things to grow. I should have said, " --you dumb piece of toxic waste. " > You are a weed, Like, for a century or two, St. 's wort, perhaps? > a fungus, morels? shitake? psilocybin? Eat them up, yum! > the dregs of this earth. Like Blackened Voodoo stout? (probably the beer I miss the most) > And did I mention you smell? No, but you're right, I do! My lovers say the aroma is reminiscent of a verdant forest. As we say in North Carolina, I'll bet you ain't no azalea ass either! (You can smell me through a computer? Call the Rhine Institute! Clairolfactance or is some of my " creative use of words " finally rubbing off on you?) > Blessed Be! --Dan I'll say it again: Grow up. (and good-bye for good) --Clif (My previous message to which Dan was responding) > So when I write to so many of the people I love, > including dear friends in West Hollywood and Albany, > my High Priestess in a nearby county, my minister, my > atheist friends both in and out of AA, my late best > friend's widower, my mother, my sister, etc. and > finish off my letter with the words, " Blessed Be, " > what I'm " really " doing is telling all of them " fuck > you " ?! > > I think my mother in particular would be very dismayed > to know that, although that also means that she wishes > me the same when she writes back. > > Oh well. I suppose I should be comforted that at > least someone understands the inner workings of what I > really mean better than I do. In that case... > > Bless your heart...and that of the horse you rode in > on. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. Also for the record, I once did a college term paper on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do so if the first step for the group is the " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will pray for me. ----- --Original Message-- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:36:57 -0000 From: rita66@... Subject: Re: I've been here since a year ago! (snip Clifton's original message) Clifton -- I've noticed you stating repeatedly that there are no " alternative " recovery meetings available in your locality -- but if I am not mistaken, you've also stated you reside in the metro N.Y. area. If so, you are misinformed. I know there are several chapters of SMART in the N.Y.C. area, as well as professionals available from the Albert Ellis Institute who have had success treating people with drug/alcohol problems using cognitive therapy and REBT. (Ellis co-authored a book called " When AA Doesn't Work for You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . Have you read it?) Therefore, there are both " non-professional " support group meetings and professional assistance available to New Yorkers who want to address their problems without AA. Perhaps you've been told there are no alternatives to AA by those who have an agenda to believe so. ~Rita __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. Also for the record, I once did a college term paper on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do so if the first step for the group is the " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will pray for me. ----- --Original Message-- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:36:57 -0000 From: rita66@... Subject: Re: I've been here since a year ago! (snip Clifton's original message) Clifton -- I've noticed you stating repeatedly that there are no " alternative " recovery meetings available in your locality -- but if I am not mistaken, you've also stated you reside in the metro N.Y. area. If so, you are misinformed. I know there are several chapters of SMART in the N.Y.C. area, as well as professionals available from the Albert Ellis Institute who have had success treating people with drug/alcohol problems using cognitive therapy and REBT. (Ellis co-authored a book called " When AA Doesn't Work for You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . Have you read it?) Therefore, there are both " non-professional " support group meetings and professional assistance available to New Yorkers who want to address their problems without AA. Perhaps you've been told there are no alternatives to AA by those who have an agenda to believe so. ~Rita __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. Also for the record, I once did a college term paper on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do so if the first step for the group is the " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will pray for me. ----- --Original Message-- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:36:57 -0000 From: rita66@... Subject: Re: I've been here since a year ago! (snip Clifton's original message) Clifton -- I've noticed you stating repeatedly that there are no " alternative " recovery meetings available in your locality -- but if I am not mistaken, you've also stated you reside in the metro N.Y. area. If so, you are misinformed. I know there are several chapters of SMART in the N.Y.C. area, as well as professionals available from the Albert Ellis Institute who have had success treating people with drug/alcohol problems using cognitive therapy and REBT. (Ellis co-authored a book called " When AA Doesn't Work for You: Rational Steps to Quitting Alcohol " . Have you read it?) Therefore, there are both " non-professional " support group meetings and professional assistance available to New Yorkers who want to address their problems without AA. Perhaps you've been told there are no alternatives to AA by those who have an agenda to believe so. ~Rita __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Re: Digest Number 665 > All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private > message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New > York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to > be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " > the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and > I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know > of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. > > Also for the record, I once did a college term paper > on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the > methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so > I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a > Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? > > I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a > local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do > so if the first step for the group is the > " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I > know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in > the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT > > P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no > alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, > after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere > else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you > do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just > check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, > I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will > pray for me. Clif: For more than five years Rational Recovery has had nothing to do with Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy. As you posted to me personally that you would look into RR later when you have more time, I suggest you look into it now not only to bring your views and arguments up to date, but to give you the answer to your earlier request. How to enjoy life with zero hours per week spent on recovery. But don't feel alone in your " ignorance " . There's a big Harm Reduction vs Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional or mass confabulation. Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Re: Digest Number 665 > All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private > message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New > York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to > be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " > the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and > I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know > of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. > > Also for the record, I once did a college term paper > on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the > methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so > I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a > Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? > > I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a > local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do > so if the first step for the group is the > " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I > know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in > the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT > > P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no > alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, > after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere > else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you > do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just > check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, > I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will > pray for me. Clif: For more than five years Rational Recovery has had nothing to do with Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy. As you posted to me personally that you would look into RR later when you have more time, I suggest you look into it now not only to bring your views and arguments up to date, but to give you the answer to your earlier request. How to enjoy life with zero hours per week spent on recovery. But don't feel alone in your " ignorance " . There's a big Harm Reduction vs Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional or mass confabulation. Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Re: Digest Number 665 > All o' y'all all: Just for the record, in a private > message to Rita, I noted that I am not in the NY (New > York) area but the NC (North Carolina) area, Durham to > be exact, and that, despite the name " Raleigh-Durham, " > the two cities are separated by a 45-minute drive (and > I have no car). The only local AA alternative I know > of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. > > Also for the record, I once did a college term paper > on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the > methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so > I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a > Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? > > I also may start ( " as well as " or " instead of " ?) a > local 16-step empowerment group, though would only do > so if the first step for the group is the > " empowerment " version, not the " powerless " one. I > know; I know: Some of you don't like the God part in > the 16 steps either. Fine. You don't have to. --CTT > > P.S.: As far as being told by AAs that there are no > alternatives, I LOVE watching a fundi's jaw drop when, > after a brief drunkalogue, s/he says, " I had nowhere > else to go to but to AA, " and I reply, " Well now you > do! There's RR, MM, SOS, and a bunch of others. Just > check out the website, aadeprogramming.com. " Yes, > I've actually said this! I usually get told s/he will > pray for me. Clif: For more than five years Rational Recovery has had nothing to do with Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy. As you posted to me personally that you would look into RR later when you have more time, I suggest you look into it now not only to bring your views and arguments up to date, but to give you the answer to your earlier request. How to enjoy life with zero hours per week spent on recovery. But don't feel alone in your " ignorance " . There's a big Harm Reduction vs Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional or mass confabulation. Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Dave, I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional > or mass confabulation. > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Dave, I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional > or mass confabulation. > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Dave, I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got any > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program teaching > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as institutional > or mass confabulation. > > Dave Trippel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Stuart, Yes, so is AA an abstinence program, but they all are conditioned on being involved in the recovery group movement. RR teaches UNconditional abstinence. Ramming conditions of abstinence down a wannabe abstainer's throat is, in Trimpey's words, " an explicit arrangement under which one *will* keep on drinking/using, at least under certain " triggering/slippery " circumstances, and at least until certain rites of recovery have been observed, i.e., the 12 steps and other prescribed therapeutic activities. There is no expectation in *any* " treatment " or step program that a client is *immediately* responsible to *forever* desist from self-intoxication. *Anyone*, however, can quit now for good, and make that decision stick by observing their own thoughts and feelings concerning substance use, i.e., AVRT. Our *culture*, however, can make it *difficult*. " Re: Digest Number 665 > > > Dave, > > I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional > abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women > for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > > > > > > > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got > any > > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program > teaching > > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as > institutional > > or mass confabulation. > > > > Dave Trippel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Stuart, Yes, so is AA an abstinence program, but they all are conditioned on being involved in the recovery group movement. RR teaches UNconditional abstinence. Ramming conditions of abstinence down a wannabe abstainer's throat is, in Trimpey's words, " an explicit arrangement under which one *will* keep on drinking/using, at least under certain " triggering/slippery " circumstances, and at least until certain rites of recovery have been observed, i.e., the 12 steps and other prescribed therapeutic activities. There is no expectation in *any* " treatment " or step program that a client is *immediately* responsible to *forever* desist from self-intoxication. *Anyone*, however, can quit now for good, and make that decision stick by observing their own thoughts and feelings concerning substance use, i.e., AVRT. Our *culture*, however, can make it *difficult*. " Re: Digest Number 665 > > > Dave, > > I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional > abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women > for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > > > > > > > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got > any > > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program > teaching > > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as > institutional > > or mass confabulation. > > > > Dave Trippel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 Stuart, Yes, so is AA an abstinence program, but they all are conditioned on being involved in the recovery group movement. RR teaches UNconditional abstinence. Ramming conditions of abstinence down a wannabe abstainer's throat is, in Trimpey's words, " an explicit arrangement under which one *will* keep on drinking/using, at least under certain " triggering/slippery " circumstances, and at least until certain rites of recovery have been observed, i.e., the 12 steps and other prescribed therapeutic activities. There is no expectation in *any* " treatment " or step program that a client is *immediately* responsible to *forever* desist from self-intoxication. *Anyone*, however, can quit now for good, and make that decision stick by observing their own thoughts and feelings concerning substance use, i.e., AVRT. Our *culture*, however, can make it *difficult*. " Re: Digest Number 665 > > > Dave, > > I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional > abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women > for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. > > > > > > > There's a big Harm Reduction vs > > Abstinence Convention in NY in April and I don't think they've got > any > > Rational Recovery representation at all; and RR is the ONLY program > teaching > > unconditional abstinence. I wonder if there's such a thing as > institutional > > or mass confabulation. > > > > Dave Trippel > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 At 02:52 PM 2/24/01 -0000, stuart323@... wrote: > > >Dave, > >I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional >abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women >for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. Dave should know that, I presume he does. Dave, did you have some special meaning to 'unconditional' abstinence, or is there something you see as differentiating RR from these other programs relating to 'unconditional abstinence'? ----- This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley. http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 At 02:52 PM 2/24/01 -0000, stuart323@... wrote: > > >Dave, > >I don't think RR is the " ONLY " program teaching unconditional >abstinence. AFAIK, Smart Recovery, SOS/LifeRing Recovery, and Women >for Sobreity are also abstinence programs. Dave should know that, I presume he does. Dave, did you have some special meaning to 'unconditional' abstinence, or is there something you see as differentiating RR from these other programs relating to 'unconditional abstinence'? ----- This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley. http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 At 09:51 AM 2/24/01 -0600, Trippel wrote: >Stuart, > >Yes, so is AA an abstinence program, but they all are conditioned on being >involved in the recovery group movement. Oh, I see what you mean. Just for the record, I found SOS a lot less dogmatic about this - you can go to as many or as few meetings as you like, and whenever you feel like it you can announce you're quitting meetings, and no one (that I saw) would say you're going to drink if you don't keep attending meetings. ----- This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley. http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 At 09:51 AM 2/24/01 -0600, Trippel wrote: >Stuart, > >Yes, so is AA an abstinence program, but they all are conditioned on being >involved in the recovery group movement. Oh, I see what you mean. Just for the record, I found SOS a lot less dogmatic about this - you can go to as many or as few meetings as you like, and whenever you feel like it you can announce you're quitting meetings, and no one (that I saw) would say you're going to drink if you don't keep attending meetings. ----- This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley. http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 > [...] > The only local AA alternative I know > of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. > > Also for the record, I once did a college term paper > on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the > methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so > I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a > Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? > [...] Clifton, You might wanna reinvestigate RR. It's already been pointed out that RR has changed its focus totally away from Ellis's RET - in fact, Trimpey recently referred to the " Small Book " as " my literary albatross, " and currently advises people to *not* buy it. But, a further point...The whole notion of an " RR group " is something of an oxymoron. While there is a place in RR for fairly brief, educational sessions on what RR is, how AVRT works, etc., the whole idea of a continuing, " keep coming back " style meeting contradicts the most basic ideas behind RR. If that's your understanding of it, I think you might wanna take another look. McKellan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 > [...] > The only local AA alternative I know > of is one weekly RR meeting in Raleigh. > > Also for the record, I once did a college term paper > on Albert Ellis's rational-emotive therapy, the > methodological underpinning of Rational Recovery, so > I'm quite familiar with his work and may even start a > Durham RR group: A coffee pot and a resentment? > [...] Clifton, You might wanna reinvestigate RR. It's already been pointed out that RR has changed its focus totally away from Ellis's RET - in fact, Trimpey recently referred to the " Small Book " as " my literary albatross, " and currently advises people to *not* buy it. But, a further point...The whole notion of an " RR group " is something of an oxymoron. While there is a place in RR for fairly brief, educational sessions on what RR is, how AVRT works, etc., the whole idea of a continuing, " keep coming back " style meeting contradicts the most basic ideas behind RR. If that's your understanding of it, I think you might wanna take another look. McKellan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 24, 2001 Report Share Posted February 24, 2001 > I just got the " Small Book " from the library and was noticing > statements that did not seem to jibe with what I've hear about RR > now. [...] In my copy he seems quite positive > toward AA as helping some people, while presenting RR as an > alternative and being excited about RR groups springing up. When > discussing disease theory he writes: " Still others can forgive > themselves for their drunken behavior only if they believe the > disease was responsible. " (p. 4). So, it wasn't just my treatment > center! I've never read the Small Book (nor any of Trimpey's other books, for that matter), but that sounds like a *very* pronounced change to me! " AA helps some people " , RR groups...wow, you've got me pretty curious here. > I enjoy your posts, . Thank you! I enjoy yours too...Have a good weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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