Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 > He knows the definition of the > words but he's rationalized a way around it by claiming " creative use " . > That's AA in a nutshell " Creative Use " of rational thought more specifically > irrational thought. > [...] > [steppers] just for some reason either are unable > to see or steadfastly refuse to see that their reality has been altered. > The problem with their altered reality is that it creates an ever growing > divide between the organization and the rest of the world. It goes further than that, I'm afraid. Ever read Orwell's " Nineteen Eighty-Four " ? Remember what they did to the language, in order to restrict the range, not of discussion or debate, but of thought itself? If you can chop out all the words that have unacceptable, politically incorrect meanings, you've attacked rationality not at its branches, but at its roots. As for alcohol abuse, well, the steppers have totally poisoned the English language. " Alcoholic " , " enabler " , " codependent " , " relapse " , " trigger " , " recovery " , etc...it's pretty damned difficult to even discuss excessive alcohol consumption these days without using words that implicitly buy into steppism. Even words like " addict " and " sober " have been altered from their originally understood meanings to correspond with Stepford ideology. Score one for the steppers. McKellan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 I'm tired of the " blessed " debate. Before Toth came along I never heard anyone say it but Wiccans, and I doubt a Wiccan would endorse XA. Nor do I think Wiccans believe in the Christian God so tightly embraced by true believers. People on this list are fond of quoting dictionaries (usually in order to prove AA is religious, not spiritual) and now I'm going to quote one to show " blessed " has a larger range of meaning than people here will admit. " Main Entry: bless·ed Pronunciation: 'ble-s & d Variant(s): also blest /'blest/ Function: adjective Date: before 12th century 1 a : held in reverence : VENERATED <the blessed saints> b : honored in worship : HALLOWED <the blessed Trinity> c : BEATIFIC <a blessed visitation> 2 : of or enjoying happiness; specifically : enjoying the bliss of heaven -- used as a title for a beatified person 3 : bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune 4 -- used as an intensive <no one gave us a blessed penny -- Saturday Review> " I will say in advance, before someone else points it out, that it does derive from the old English word for " blood, " namely, sacramental blood. I want to point out, too, that if we always stuck with the derivation of words to figure out their meaning, we'd still be speaking Indoeuropean -- and the word " blessed " would have remained the IE equivalent of " bloody. " <snip> > Take Toth right now with the Blessed be. He knows the definition of the > words but he's rationalized a way around it by claiming " creative use " . > That's AA in a nutshell " Creative Use " of rational thought more specifically > irrational thought. The problem is they refuse to acknowledge that it's > irrational preferring the creative use redefinition of their concepts which > becomes their altered reality. They just for some reason either are unable > to see or steadfastly refuse to see that their reality has been altered. > The problem with their altered reality is that it creates an ever growing > divide between the organization and the rest of the world. And the problem > with that is that it has a tendency to make the sucker err AA more dependant > on the organization to begin with which has a tendency to heighten the > fervor with which one participates. It's a vicious circle in which > newcomers are dealt with severely if they do or say anything that threatens > the " creative use " redefined reality. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 You say you're not sure what I'm getting at, but I have to say I'm totally baffled by your stance. How you can connect the words " Blessed be " and " AA " is an enigma. Are you sure you have heard AA members say it? I find that incomprehensible. I certainly never have, after visiting a great variety of meetings. If I had ever heard that phrase from an AA member, I think I would have taken it as a sign that the person was there because they had to be, but didn't really believe all the BS. As I say, I have never heard anyone but a Wiccan use that greeting. There is even a line of Pagan and Wiccan greeting cards put out by Rowan Press that is called " Blessed Be Greetings. " They have a website that you can easily find with a Google search. Actually, I thought the derivation of the word supported your point of view. I don't think I was reaching. I just had the misfortune to have had to take a lot of linguistics courses in graduate school. I ended up able to read Old High German, Old Saxon, Middle High German, Gothic, Provencal and Latin. I did not like having to draw maps from scratch that showed where monasteries were located in the time that people spoke Old High German, nor did I like having to read passages and determine from the writing what monastery had reproduced them. Equally I did not like having to trace what is called the Second Sound Shift by mapping these monasteries, and even less did I appreciate learning about the First Sound Shift, which is largely speculative and occurred before people (at least Europeans) had come across the concept of writing. But sometimes you learn stuff you can't forget. If you say this greeting is common among the AA members you've rubbed shoulders with, I certainly will believe you, but I think it is very strange. > > > > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > > > > >I'm tired of the " blessed " debate. > > Kay; It's not the " blessed " debate. It's the " blessed be " debate. > > >Before Toth came along I never > >heard anyone say it but Wiccans, and I doubt a Wiccan would endorse > >XA. Nor do I think Wiccans believe in the Christian God so tightly > >embraced by true believers. > > I've never heard an athiest other than an AA varient say it or write it. > > > " Main Entry: bless·ed > > Pronunciation: 'ble-s & d > > Variant(s): also blest /'blest/ > > Function: adjective > > Date: before 12th century > >1 a : held in reverence : VENERATED <the blessed saints> b : honored > >in worship : HALLOWED <the blessed Trinity> c : BEATIFIC <a > >blessed visitation> > >2 : of or enjoying happiness; specifically : enjoying the bliss of > >heaven -- used as a title for a beatified person > >3 : bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune > >4 -- used as an intensive <no one gave us a blessed penny -- Saturday > >Review> " > > > >I will say in advance, before someone else points it out, that it does > >derive from the old English word for " blood, " namely, sacramental > >blood. I want to point out, too, that if we always stuck with the > >derivation of words to figure out their meaning, we'd still be > >speaking Indoeuropean -- and the word " blessed " would have remained > >the IE equivalent of " bloody. " > > People don't normally go that far into it unless they're reaching. I've > seen steppers attempt to go this far when trying to difine words such as > spiritual and their Higher Power concept. I'm aware of the useses of the > word blessed as well as the uses when it's in conjunction with the word be. > Given Toth's chosen creative usage of " blessed be " I'm not sure what you're > saying here. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 > Re: Boundaries of Debate >> > >> > >> >I'm tired of the " blessed " debate. >> >> Kay; It's not the " blessed " debate. It's the " blessed be " debate. >> >> >Before Toth came along I never >> >heard anyone say it but Wiccans, and I doubt a Wiccan would endorse >> >XA. Nor do I think Wiccans believe in the Christian God so tightly >> >embraced by true believers. >> >> I've never heard an athiest other than an AA varient say it or write >it. >> >> > " Main Entry: bless·ed >> > Pronunciation: 'ble-s & d >> > Variant(s): also blest /'blest/ >> > Function: adjective >> > Date: before 12th century >> >1 a : held in reverence : VENERATED <the blessed saints> b : >honored >> >in worship : HALLOWED <the blessed Trinity> c : BEATIFIC <a >> >blessed visitation> >> >2 : of or enjoying happiness; specifically : enjoying the bliss of >> >heaven -- used as a title for a beatified person >> >3 : bringing pleasure, contentment, or good fortune >> >4 -- used as an intensive <no one gave us a blessed penny -- >Saturday >> >Review> " >> >> >> >I will say in advance, before someone else points it out, that it >does >> >derive from the old English word for " blood, " namely, sacramental >> >blood. I want to point out, too, that if we always stuck with the >> >derivation of words to figure out their meaning, we'd still be >> >speaking Indoeuropean -- and the word " blessed " would have remained >> >the IE equivalent of " bloody. " >> >> People don't normally go that far into it unless they're reaching. >I've >> seen steppers attempt to go this far when trying to difine words >such as >> spiritual and their Higher Power concept. I'm aware of the useses >of the >> word blessed as well as the uses when it's in conjunction with the >word be. >> Given Toth's chosen creative usage of " blessed be " I'm not sure what >you're >> saying here. >> >> >> > >> > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 I'm with you for the most part her Kay but the term blessed be doesn't offend me. It's his, in his words, " creative use " of it I find offensive. > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > >, I do consider myself mainly an atheist, but I do believe in an > " organizing principle, " as they say nowadays. As such, the >words " blessed be " do not offend me. But people are different. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 I'm with you for the most part her Kay but the term blessed be doesn't offend me. It's his, in his words, " creative use " of it I find offensive. > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > >, I do consider myself mainly an atheist, but I do believe in an > " organizing principle, " as they say nowadays. As such, the >words " blessed be " do not offend me. But people are different. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 Is it possible that the words " creative use " offend you more than " blessed be " ? > I'm with you for the most part her Kay but the term blessed be doesn't > offend me. It's his, in his words, " creative use " of it I find offensive. > > > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > > > > >, I do consider myself mainly an atheist, but I do believe in an > > " organizing principle, " as they say nowadays. As such, the > >words " blessed be " do not offend me. But people are different. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 Is it possible that the words " creative use " offend you more than " blessed be " ? > I'm with you for the most part her Kay but the term blessed be doesn't > offend me. It's his, in his words, " creative use " of it I find offensive. > > > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > > > > >, I do consider myself mainly an atheist, but I do believe in an > > " organizing principle, " as they say nowadays. As such, the > >words " blessed be " do not offend me. But people are different. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 I can completely relate to steppers distorting language. But Clifton says he did this long before he entered AA. If I understand you correctly, then, you would not object to a Pagan or Wiccan using these words, or to an atheist who was not in AA using them? To me, it means no more than, " May you be fortunate, " " May the sun shine upon you, " " Live long and prosper, " or " The force be with you. " > dammit! Let me try again. It's not really his creative use I find offensive > it's the stepper tendency to creatively use common words so that an average > person might believe they're (the stepper is) saying one thing when in > reality they're saying something completely different. > > In this case the focus of blessed be is not internal and therefore does not > mean bless me if I were saying it. It might mean bless you in which case it > would be: blessed be her holiness Kayleigh. Leaving it as a simple > statement as he did means something only to the person who wrote it. In > which case why bother in the first place unless you were claiming some type > of superior spiritual knowledge? > > > > > Re: Boundaries of Debate > >> > >> > >>, I do consider myself mainly an atheist, but I do believe in an > >> " organizing principle, " as they say nowadays. As such, the > >>words " blessed be " do not offend me. But people are different. > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2001 Report Share Posted February 23, 2001 Clifton said he learned it long before AA. I said, and he has yet to refute, that I believed that irregardless of when he learned it he didn't use it in correspondence until after attending AA. > Re: Boundaries of Debate > > >I can completely relate to steppers distorting language. But Clifton >says he did this long before he entered AA. > If I understand you >correctly, then, you would not object to a Pagan or Wiccan using these >words, or to an atheist who was not in AA using them? I would find it strange to find an atheist using it in the context he used it yes. > To me, it means >no more than, " May you be fortunate, " " May the sun shine upon you, " > " Live long and prosper, " or " The force be with you. " To me it (blessed be) is an incomplete sentence. :0) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.